Saph7's page

Okay, finally had the chance to look over the Path of War classes for a campaign I'm going to be running. Here's my (very brief) feedback - note that I haven't had the chance to fully read every bit of the files.

Good Stuff

• First off, I'm happy that you're doing a ToB adaption at all. It was one of my favourite 3.5 books and I'd love to be able to use it in Pathfinder.

• Maneuvers and stances look good – I think the basic balance point for damage, effects, etc is in the right place, and many of them look very fun. Some do need a little bit of toning down (Banish to the Beyond is an obvious one) but this is fine-tuning stuff.

• I like the variety in the new disciplines. All look like they'd be fun to try out, and I can't see any obvious turkeys.

Critiques

• Classes feel too pigeonholed. One of the nice things about the Warblade, Swordsage, and Crusader were how flexible they were – since they were defined primarily by their maneuvers, you could build them in more or less any way you like. Warder, Stalker, and Warlord have class features which shoehorn them a bit too heavily into a 'role'.

Example: The first thing I tried to do was to build a Warblade-esque battlefield character who just revolves around directly attacking enemies with maneuvers. Should be easy, right? Well, Warder doesn't fit – that's all about defending allies with aegis and armiger's mark. Don't want that. And Warlord's got a whole bunch of teamwork-related things - don't want that either. Which only leaves the Stalker . . . which is a 3/4 BAB class with lots of skills. That wasn't what I wanted. Already I'm getting dissatisfied – it shouldn't be this difficult to do a concept that basic. Why are two out of the three classes designed around teamwork effects? Teamwork effects are great as an option, but not if they're mandatory. I'd prefer more flexible class features that would fit a variety of concepts. Is there some way to trade away stuff like Aegis, Armiger's Mark, Tactical Flanker, etc for something more generic?

• WAY too many small conditional stacking bonuses. It adds complexity for no real benefit. Obvious example – Warder's Aegis. +1 to CMD, AC, and Will to allies within 10 feet. So now every member of my party has to keep track of exactly how many feet they are away from me before they know what their defensive stats are. Oh, and it only works if they can see/hear me, so they have to check that too. But it doesn't work on me, despite the fact that I'm my own ally. And then the numbers change level by level, and the radius also changes level by level, so as the characters level up the players will have to relearn what the modifiers are . . . gah! That is WAY too much work just to figure out your armour class! Yes, I know 3.5/PF already uses small conditional bonuses, but this is one of the well-known problems with the system. Don't make it worse!

Anyway, that was the major stuff that came to mind.

The first item to buy for the eidolon, who is natural attack based, is the Amulet of Natural Fists, +0, (element of preference). For 5,000 gp, it is adding 3.5 average damage per attack, while the Belt of strength +2 is adding +1 damage, or +1.5 if it is power attacking, for a cost of 4,000 gp.

Heh, can't believe I forgot that one. Adding it.

Edit: and handbook is officially finished! I'll be polishing it for a few days, so submit any extra suggestions.

Items section is (mostly) complete. Post any suggestions.

Guide is very close to finished now. I'll go back through and do a final edit, then I'll be more or less done.

FAQ section added! Just Items left to do now.

In Fang Vs Blade - Whether to Wield a Weapon in post #6:

Natural Weapons also get an additional attack from haste, referenced here

Is there an official errata somewhere? The text of Pathfinder Haste is pretty specific that it only works on weapons the creature is holding.

So, I'm in the process of finishing up the Summoner's Handbook (thread is here) and I was wondering if anyone had any answers from the developers on the following questions.

1. Does the Augment Summoning feat boost creatures summoned with a Summoner's summon monster spell-like ability?

2. Can a Biped eidolon take the Bite evolution once, and then take it again to add 1 1/2 its Strength modifier to damage? The wording's unclear and there was a long debate on this one in the Summoner's Handbook thread.

3. The Eidolon's Share Spells ability says "A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon’s type (outsider). Spells cast in this way must come from the summoner spell list." Does this apply to spells from scrolls or wands, eg can a Summoner cast a scroll of Shield on his Eidolon?

4. The description of the feat Summoner's Call says "You have the power to call your eidolon one additional time per day". The benefit says "Whenever you summon your eidolon, you may give it a +2 enhancement bonus to its Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution. This bonus lasts 10 minutes after the summoning ritual is complete". Which is correct?

5. Is the Eidolon intended to get full HP from its first Hit Dice, or does it get half like other monsters?

Chapter 8: Summoned Monsters is up. Guide is very nearly complete.

Flank Buddy and Nom-Beast added to Sample Builds. Thanks to erik and Elyza!

Saph, again I appreciate your hard work, but frankly so far someone who follows the guide will produce an underpowered summoner for combat. For example, your biped build has this full attack round:

Greatsword +5 (2d6+6)

"... this maximizes hitting power. When Enlarged this boasts a greatsword attack dealing an impressive 3d6+7 damage ..."

This damage is less than half compared to a Biped with Summoners Call (Strength), power attack feat, and the evolutions Bite and Str+2:

Bite: +5, d6+7 and Claw: +5, d4+7 and Claw: +5, d4+7

Let's look at some numbers.

Subtracting Summoner's Call, which everyone can take (and expecting to always have 1 minute's notice of a fight assumes an extremely generous DM) that gives a full attack routine of Bite +4 (1d6+6) and 2 claws +4 (1d4+6). Against AC 15, this gives an expected damage per round of about 13. The Slugger build has a DPR of 7 in the same situation, so if the enemy starts its turn 5 feet away from you, the natural attack build is obviously better.

However, combat does not consist solely of creatures standing next to each other and trading full attacks. If your build has to move and attack, its expected damage drops to 5, while the Slugger's stays exactly the same, at 7. In addition, the Slugger can expect to get at least one AoO in the battle due to its 10-foot reach, doubling its effective damage per round. The other advantage of the greatsword build is that it gives you mobility. The greatsword build can move and attack: the three-natural-weapons Eidolon can only effectively hit things if the enemies finish their turn within 5 feet of it. So in a mobile battle, the Slugger build is better.

This isn't to say your high-Strength Biped is bad - it's not, it's a very good way to build an Eidolon. But it's not the only way and it's not necessarily the best way. So please tone down the "I'm an expert and anyone who disagrees with me is an idiot" attitude.

Eidolons section is complete! All packages are now up, along with some 1st-level builds, a guide to defensive and utility evolutions, and the 10th-level "Killer Centaur" build.

Don't quite follow the Agile Maneuvers reasoning - according to the SRD it replaces Str with Dex for your CMB, right? And after your Eidolon gets the Large evolution, its Dex will always be lower. Though I agree it'd be useful until then.

The metamagic thing is a good catch, I'll include that.

Saph: Why isn't Biped rated higher than Quadruped? It has provably higher damage per round for every level (unless you are rating it for non-combat use like RPing, move speed or use as a mount etc)?

Quadruped gets Pounce, Biped doesn't. The Biped does more damage IF it gets a full attack, but the Quadruped will get more full attacks than the Biped will.

However, I will say that Alarm is both a better spell than you rate it (not saying it's blue, but it's not red), and the 'just put the Eidolon on watch' requires a (common) house rule... as when the summoner goes to sleep, the Eidolon goes poof.

Yeah, enough people have mentioned this that I might upgrade it. I still think setting watches is usually better, but I guess once you hit a high enough level you can afford the level 1 slots.

For a constrictor build, other feats that you might like are agile maneuvers (make all that dex good for something) and suffocating strangulation (from the shambling mound). If the DM allows suffocating strangulation, it's nice to have a nonlethal way to end combat. Also if you can get your CMB high enough, don't forget that grab allows you grapple multiple people and be a kraken. Fun times.

Considered agile maneuvers, but it becomes sub-par as soon as you hit Large size (which you'll need to Grab medium-sized enemies).

Also have you considered the nom-beast? Take a biped or quadruped base, take the grappling feats and boost up bite damage to maximize the swallow whole DPR.

There is also an archer build, just spam the arms evolution (maybe a few defensive ones) and equip it with a crap load of bows and take some archery feats. Today we shall fight in the shade :)

Heh. I'll have my hands full just doing the eidolon builds I've already got for now. If you could write either of those up, I'd appreciate it.

First part of the Eidolons section is up! Includes the following:

How Natural Attacks Work
Guide to Eidolon Base Forms
Fang Vs Blade - Whether to Wield a Weapon
Eidolon Feats
The Three Laws of Evolution

In addition, the Pouncer, Ripper, Chomper, and Constrictor Eidolon packages are up. Slugger, Mount, and Kali to come later, along with sample builds.

Incorporated a bunch of james maissen's submissions, including the Stealth Summoner alternate build.

Many thanks for those who've submitted feedback on spells! Several of the ratings have been changed along with the recommendation. Special thanks to James for the spell list review and to Erik for the Summon list.

Eidolons are next - hopefully I'll get the section mostly done by today.

I'll include a FAQ on the Eidolon's bite. It's confusingly worded and I can see a DM ruling it either way, so I don't think there's a definite answer on this one.

Spells section is complete! All spells from 0-level to 6th-level are done.

A couple of things I noticed looking over your guide so far...

Your overstating the ability to keep your eidolon alive by using your HP's via the link ability. those can only be used if the attack would kill it outright. So if its just enough damage to bring it to negative without killing it your extra hit points are wasted. Especially at lower levels, this is going to be the most likely result.

Good catch, I missed that one. I'll go back and include that later.

2nd- and 3rd-level spells are up, by the way.

I have proven many things, but as you haven't incorporated clearly better advice (like any non-Half-Elf build is horrible), I have doubts as to whether anything I post will be incorporated and am going to wait and see for now.

I've incorporated several of the bits of advice I've gotten in the thread so far, from you and several other posters (notably John John). I'm not going to say things like "any non-Half-Elf build is horrible" because it's exaggeration.

However, I promise that if you post an Eidolon build I'll incorporate it into the guide and credit you with it, as long as you use the format I requested (makes it easier for me to read and post).

So far the only problem I'm having is the rating on Diehard. Staying conscious keeps your Eidolon around, gives you a few more Hit Points to give it through Life Link, and keeps you from getting a coup de grace to the face.

There are two reasons I gave Diehard a low rating:

1. It's two feats. That's a lot, and you don't have many.
2. While it keeps you upright longer, it also increases the chance that when you do go down, you'll be dead. In my experience characters can often drop to Dying and be healed up after the fight, but if you take another attack while you're using Diehard it's usually fatal.

Basically, if you want more HP, I think you should go for Toughness instead.

You rated the ranged capabilities of the summoner Red, then rate Acid Splash the same way, when Acid Splash is an at-will spell that targets Touch AC, something that crossbows can't.

The fact that Acid Splash is the Summoner's best low-level ranged damage spell is the REASON their ranged capabilities are rated Red. :P Acid Splash averages about 1 damage per round if you're lucky: you should be able to find actions in combat that accomplish more than that.

Hey Saph, Guidance and Resistance are unquestionably the most important cantrips. Both you and your Eidolon cannot have cloaks of Resistance.

Add a resistance bonus to another item or put it in a non-associated slot.

A failed save vs sleep and your Eidolon disappears etc. Guidance can be applied to anyone in the group and since the part about 1 attack is fine since the bite is more important than all other attacks put together, and your first attack is nearly always a charge (1 attack anyway). Also they only take 6 sec to cast, so you can keep it up on multiple people. Guidance also applies to a resist or skill check too, the highest utility spell we have!

There is hardly a single situation ever in any scenario where you wouldn't always want to cast guidance.

It's also a +1 bonus, making it by definition useless 95% of the time. It's not bad or anything, but 19 out of 20 times it will make zero difference and if you try to keep Resistance and Guidance up on multiple people you'll be doing nothing else all day.

The problem with situational +1 bonuses that require activation is the 'attention' issue . . . it's getting to the point where you have to seriously consider whether they're worth the time it takes to tell the DM that you're doing it.

Acid Splash is terrible. :P

PS - I'm expecting some Eidolon builds from you. You keep saying that your build is clearly the best, so I'm waiting for you to prove it. :)

Started the Spells section. General guidelines are up, as well as cantrips and 1st-level spells.

First of all, excellent thread and thanks for taking the time to put together an all encompassing guide. Second, would someone mind posting a link to the errata that pertains to the Summoner class, if any, so that we are all discussing the most up-to-date and pertinent information? Including a link to the errata within the guide would also probably be a wise decision. I'd love to weigh in on this bite issue, but just want to make sure we are discussing the same topics. I am reading what is printed in the Advanced Players Guide.

Also, when discussing the class I think it would be beneficial to build the guide to just merely put an asterisk next to feats that are banned in PFS, since it seems several people play this exclusively. For builds I don't think it would hurt then taking into account PFS and making a build straight to 12 since that also would be a common end point. A straight 20 or 18 since most adventure paths end at this level would also be a neat idea.

I'm using the Pathfinder SRD for reference, so errata shouldn't be an issue assuming it's up to date.

I don't play PFS unfortunately, so I don't know what the differences are. If anyone wants to write a guide to that I'll include it, but so far I've only had one person say they do.

Builds are very much dependent on submissions. I've had lots of people say that they think eidolon build X is really good, but so far no-one's actually posted anything to prove it. :)

Great!!!!

Thank you for doing this for us.

No problem. Glad you like it!

OK, I'm going to be covering the Spells section next, probably tomorrow. I'm leaving Eidolons for last since they're the most complicated.

A lot of people seem to have ideas as to good Eidolon builds, so if you'd like me to include them in the handbook, please submit them either in this thread or by PM, and I'll credit you with them. Use this format:

<Eidolon Name> (Xth Level)

Form: <quadruped, biped, serpentine>
AC:
Initiative:
Speed:
Ability Scores: <Str Dex Con Int Wis Cha>
Skills: <Skill Name> +X, <Skill Name> +Y, etc
Feats: X (1st), Y (3rd), etc
Evolutions (base): <determined by your base form>
Evolutions (extra): <list all here>
Attack Routine: Bite +X (1dY+Z) and 2 claws +X (1dY+Z) and ... etc.
Notes: <description and anything that needs explaining>

The baseline levels I'm going to be using are 1st, 5th, and 10th-level, so build to one of those levels (or all three if you really think your build's that good).

Don't include items, buff spells, or other situational bonuses, as all summoners use those - the idea's to do a comparison. (Every eidolon's going to have Mage Armour, so there's no need to include it in your statblock.)

Thanks for the feedback. I'll consider it.

The spoiler boxes are to make it easier to scroll through. The guide's already big and going to be enormous, so there's something to be said for making it easier to navigate.

Curious about the Treantmonk thing, by the way. Why do you say it's in his style? I don't actually know the guy, though I like his guides.

Interesting, didn't think of it that way. Do you think the extra evo points are worth the lost feat and HP though? Remember that every HP the summoner gets is an extra one for the Eidolon.

Class features are up, btw, but I'm going to go get some sleep since it's taken me all day to do this much. :P

Half-Elf's already rated 'Good'. I can't honestly rate them on par with Humans, even with their alternate favoured class ability.

All the spoiler boxes contain info, so it sounds like there's some technical glitch. Haven't had any reports from the local posters yet, so not sure what the problem would be.

Hey all - After noticing that there doesn't seem to be a handbook for the Pathfinder Summoner, I've started one. It's currently hosted on the Giant in the Playground forums, at this address:

The Summoner's Handbook

Any feedback, advice, comments etc. would be very welcome. The handbook's still under construction and is currently about half done (there's a lot of material to cover!) I'll post updates from time to time and might cross-post it over here if enough people find it helpful.