If performing a given job involves creating a physical object, it's a Craft skill. Profession skills can involve making things, but you need a broad set of skills to do them. A farmer, for example, needs to know something about soil, weather, climate, his animals, what he wants to plant, when to plant, etc. The Craft skill defines what's possible pretty well in its entry.
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If performing a given job involves creating a physical object, it's a Craft skill. Profession skills can involve making things, but you need a broad set of skills to do them. A farmer, for example, needs to know something about soil, weather, climate, his animals, what he wants to plant, when to plant, etc. The Craft skill defines what's possible pretty well in its entry.
Then shouldnt there be requirements for certain professions for example armor smith would require x points in craft armor and farmer would require x points in knowledge nature or geography?
But my problem is that I am making a dwarf cleric who is an armorsmith by profession because that was what he did before he joined the clergy of said god, so I want to put points into profession because that was his profession but its is listed simply as craft in the skills list.
You're overthinking things a little. If his profession (in the dictionary sense) is Armorsmith, then he should have ranks in Craft: Armor, because that's what Armorsmiths do. Any job that results in physical goods being created is represented by the Craft skill.
On the other hand, if your professsion instead is geared towards providing skills and services, but does not actually produce goods, it uses the Profession skill. A quick example would be a sailor, but you'll find far more in the skill descriptions themselves.
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The way I look at it is:
If you know something, it's Knowledge (X),
If you do something, it's Profession (X),
If you make something, it's Craft (X),
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The way I look at it is:
If you know something, it's Knowledge (X),
If you do something, it's Profession (X),
If you make something, it's Craft (X),
Knowledge (armors): It's a very fine Chelaxian full plate. No, I have no idea how to make one, I'm an expert on armor design history !
Profession (owner of a smithy): This Chelaxian full plate will sell for 2000 gp, which should cover the landlord and supplies for the next month ... no, I have no idea how to make one, I'm a businessman !
Craft (armorsmith): OK, Chelaxian full plate. 2 weeks, maybe a bit faster if I work on weekends.
The answer is that there is no profession armorsmith, it is not a valid choice and cannot be used to make armor.
If you were the owner of a armor smithy you would have profession (merchant). You don't make the armor, you sell it.
Creating the armor requires craft(armor).
I think what you want is to get Profession: Blacksmith instead of Craft: Blacksmith so you can use your WIS instead of you INT.
I see no problem with that, but the rules just don't agree with me.
+375 is not a modifier. It is just the how much sp worth of crafting you can do in one week.
If the DC is 19 then have to at least get 19 on your craft check. However if you want to craft it faster you can set a higher DC. The DC multiplied by what you roll is the amount of sp(silver pieces) you generate.
so if you set the DC to 20 instead of 19, and you roll a 20 then you generate 400sp worth of work, which is the same as 40 gp.
Actually the +375 was the modifier I calculated you'd need to finish a full plate in two weeks (and you'd still need to roll a 20 on top of that). But that was without increasing the DC, which I didn't know you could. Is there some rule text that says you can do that?+375 is not a modifier. It is just the how much sp worth of crafting you can do in one week.
If the DC is 19 then have to at least get 19 on your craft check. However if you want to craft it faster you can set a higher DC. The DC multiplied by what you roll is the amount of sp(silver pieces) you generate.
so if you set the DC to 20 instead of 19, and you roll a 20 then you generate 400sp worth of work, which is the same as 40 gp.
I thought you were using the word modifier instead of "silver pieces", and I did not want any new people confused.
Are you asking if the crafter is allowed to increase the DC?
If so the answer is yes.
Craft is about making the finest pinnacle of your craft with the best skills and materials.
Profession is realizing that almost no one is going to pay 1,251 gp for a mithral pot, and using the money and time to craft a 1,251 pots out of regular iron instead, creating a successful and renowned smithing business that provides for all the major restaurants in the kingdom.
Meanwhile, the guy that spent a fortune on the fancy pot had to sell it for 100 gp just to avoid getting his legs broken by creditors. He now lives under the bridge.
Profession is about making something that is 'good enough' to get basic customers and profits. Oh, sure, having craft and making 'very good' items is alright too. It builds a reputation so that your average stuff is seen as better than the other guy's average stuff. And sometimes, some whacky noble or adventurerer comes in asking for a 1,251 gp pot, and you have the skills to capitalize on the opportunity.
But as adventurers, you should just worry about craft, since you are usually your own customer, and you do not have to worry about your actual money. At least not on the scale that NPCs have to.
I was only partially right. Here is the rule.
Special: You may voluntarily add +10 to the indicated DC to craft an item. This allows you to create the item more quickly (since you'll be multiplying this higher DC by your Craft check result to determine progress). You must decide whether to increase the DC before you make each weekly or daily check.
edit: So for the example where you listed a 19 it would have to be increased to a 29.
Yeah you only get one +10 increase. It still reduces the time, but I think craft would be better if you could choose any higher level DC.
I have that pdf also. I like it.
Did someone say overhaul the crafting system!!!
https://img.4plebs.org/boards/tg/image/1388/83/1388832309858.pdf
Edit: Awww darn someone beat me to it.
Wish I had that in my game. My PC's been working on making her own masterwork greataxe for about six in-game weeks now and is about halfway through. Granted, doing this as a level 2 barbarian isn't really smart, but it's in-character and fun to imagine (and to fill the campaign log with smithery talk). That PDF would mean I was done with it with enough time to spare to make a few more fun toys.
As far as profession vs knowledge vs craft, the way our GM is doing things, it seems that knowing certain things about your trade would still fall under the skill itself (and of them, you're using INT or WIS anyway). Thus, my barbarian would likely know of darkwood and mithril, given she has invested in the Craft skill (even weaponsmiths would have at least heard of the stuff).
As far as knowing the value of things in general, there should be a skill dedicated to this sort of appraising. I wonder what it is ... (yes, it's Appraise).
Did someone say overhaul the crafting system!!!
https://img.4plebs.org/boards/tg/image/1388/83/1388832309858.pdf
Edit: Awww darn someone beat me to it.
Hmm... example three seems to be portraying crafting horribly. If you change the auto-20 to the much more likely assuming of rolling 11's the difficult to craft object takes much much much much much much longer than the simple one.
... and it lets you craft castles in two weeks.
I understand crafting taking a long time for reasons of verisimilitude, because even in fantasy stories swords are not forged overnight, and armor is not quickly made, but for the sake of the game I would at least like a way, to craft more quickly if the player is willing to put resources into it.
I understand crafting taking a long time for reasons of verisimilitude, because even in fantasy stories swords are not forged overnight, and armor is not quickly made, but for the sake of the game I would at least like a way, to craft more quickly if the player is willing to put resources into it.
You mean besides the use of a scroll of fabricate?
I understand crafting taking a long time for reasons of verisimilitude, because even in fantasy stories swords are not forged overnight, and armor is not quickly made, but for the sake of the game I would at least like a way, to craft more quickly if the player is willing to put resources into it.You mean besides the use of a scroll of fabricate?
Yeah, something that anyone can do not just the magic people. :)
I am aware that UMD exist, but to be clear I mean without the use of magic.
I understand crafting taking a long time for reasons of verisimilitude, because even in fantasy stories swords are not forged overnight, and armor is not quickly made, but for the sake of the game I would at least like a way, to craft more quickly if the player is willing to put resources into it.You mean besides the use of a scroll of fabricate?Yeah, something that anyone can do not just the magic people. :)
I am aware that UMD exist, but to be clear I mean without the use of magic.
Does getting a spell cast on you count? Crafter's fortune gives you a +5 on your next craft check. That can help things along a small bit.
It doesn't even require you to be able to cast magic. Hell, since it is a level 1 spell, just about any place should be able to get their hands on it.
I understand crafting taking a long time for reasons of verisimilitude, because even in fantasy stories swords are not forged overnight, and armor is not quickly made, but for the sake of the game I would at least like a way, to craft more quickly if the player is willing to put resources into it.You mean besides the use of a scroll of fabricate?Yeah, something that anyone can do not just the magic people. :)
I am aware that UMD exist, but to be clear I mean without the use of magic.
Does getting a spell cast on you count? Crafter's fortune gives you a +5 on your next craft check. That can help things along a small bit.
It doesn't even require you to be able to cast magic. Hell, since it is a level 1 spell, just about any place should be able to get their hands on it.
That +5 is not going to really decrease the crafting time. Well is might if you are not able to make the +10 DC to make the item faster, but even then some items take forever to make. I was speaking of something that cuts the crafting time down to 1/2 or better.
I would say a feat that lets you use gold pieces instead of silver pieces but you people don't normally stay low level long enough for it to matter, and then they will just retrain the feat unless they are in something like Kingmaker.
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Buying/renting Amazing Tools of Manufacture are the way to go. 2,000 gp worth of crafting for 1 hrs work a day speeds things along quite nicely.
Typically you choose craft when you want to make items for the party, and profession when you want to generate revenue from downtime activity.
This answer falls apart when you try to apply any verisimilitude to it.
For example:
Adventuring Professional Smith: I just finished making a sword for a customer. Sweet. I made 7 gold coins. I'm off to the tavern to celebrate since we're not heading off on our new adventure until next week.
Smith's Adventuring Companion: Woah, hey, could you make a sword for me before we go?
APS: Uh, no, actually I can't.
SAC: Why not? You made one for that customer who just walked out of here with it.
APS: Well, you see, I"m a professional smith.
SAC: Yeah, so whip me up a professional sword.
APS: I can't. I never really learned to craft weapons.
SAC: What do you mean? You just crafted one!
APS: No, well, you see, I just made that sword to generate some downtime revenue while Merlin is holed up enchanting his bonded staff. I knew he'd be at it for a few weeks so I made some quick cash with my profession.
SAC: So? If you can make a sword with your profession, make one for me with your profession.
APS: Yeah, but that requires me to be a craftsman. I never learned how to craft a sword. All I know is how to make downtime revenue by selling swords I make.
SAC: You said "swords I make". So you make them, right?
APS: Right. To sell them. For downtime revenue.
SAC: So make me one!
APS: I can't. I would have to craft you one because you're in my adventuring party. I don't know how to craft a sword.
SAC: What if I buy it from you, could you make one for me in your downtime and I will pay for it, full price, increasing your downtime revenue. Would that work?
APS: Well, maybe. Yeah, as long as it's downtime revenue and you're a customer, I might be able to convince the Great Mystery (GM) in the sky to let me do that. In my downtime.
SAC: Yeah, whatever...
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Maybe it's just easier to think of the skills as doing exactly what they do:
Craft: Make something. Could take a long time. When you're done, you can use it yourself, sell it to a NPC, give or sell it to a companion, whatever you want.
Profession: Run a business. This includes procuring raw materials at wholesale rates, maintaining professional relations with suppliers, advertising, paying rent on the shop space, keeping inventory, accounting revenue and expenses, paying taxes, haggling with customers, maintaining guild relations, hiring employees, paying wages, and whatever else is needed to be in business. If done well, it can generate downtime revenue.
Note what is missing from Profession: the ability to make anything. Some professions don't make things. Barmaid - all you do is serve food and drink and collect revenue. Chimney Sweep - all you do is show up clean people's chimneys with your long broom. Wagon driver - all you do is drive the wagon and care for the horses. Etc.
But if the profession includes making things, such as Profession (Smith), then you better ALSO have the crafting skill OR you better hire someone who does.
Typically you choose craft when you want to make items for the party, and profession when you want to generate revenue from downtime activity.
The two are just opposite sides of the same coin: you can sell items you craft to make money; alternatively you can forgo earning money from your profession check and put that towards an item you're making. The revenue is afterall just an average of what you get per week from making an item(s) of whatever craftsmanship and waiting for them to sell.
Mathematically have not checked to see how dissimilar the two are; I would assume that craft is mathematically favorable towards making useful items while profession is mathematically favorable towards earning income (assuming standard rule to sell crafted items for 50% listed price and not haggled prices/houserules).
Both skills can be used to generate 1/2 of a skill check in gold pieces each weak. In addition, craft has printed masterwork items that boost crafting and scales off an ability score that happens to provide skill ranks, meaning that a crafter is more likely to have maxed craft than a professional has maxed their profession given they both have high relevant ability scores.
If the crafter is actually crafting items and selling them for half price(making 1/6 their price in profit) instead of using the handwavey skill check for working for a week, they make less at lower DCs and more at higher DCs, due to the fact that the crafting progress scales quadratically if you can find an item with a high enough DC. A crafter that makes a DC20 check can make about 7 gold crafting vs 10 gold working. A crafter that makes a DC35 check can make 20.4 gold crafting vs 17.5 gold working (an alchemist making tanglefoot bags accelerated might manage this). There isn't enough of a difference to really matter unless the crafter is making +40 adjust composite bows with a ridiculous craft check (184 gp crafting vs 52.5gp working on a DC105 check!!!).
Of course, if an 18th level alchemist is around crafting becomes the better option by far (make 8 gp profit as a full round action).
Ok wouldn't putting skill points into profession "armor smith" be the same as putting points into "craft armor"? Because there were people with armor smith as their profession back when swords and armor played a role on the battlefield in real life.
Profession "armoursmith" doesn't exist; it's covered by Craft (Armour.) Craft skills are essentially professions of a specific sort: those that take materials and create items other than food or drink.
Errr ... doesn't Perform [whatever] have a better revenue potential than either Craft [insert goodie here] or Profession [do something]? ;)
The main difference between Craft and Profession, as far as the rules go, is whether you're primarily manufacturing something. Although it doesn't cover all situations (is it Craft (beer) or Profession (brewer)?), the main differences are the mental stat you're using (Int vs Wis) and whether you're a barbarian (they don't get Profession as a class skill for some weird reason).
Come to think of it ... looking over the Profession options, why can't barbarians do this? It may seem odd for one to have Profession (librarian), but how about Brewer to supply all that ale they drink, or Butcher to make those huge hunks of meat to roast in the feast hall? And please try to tell me the Vikings never had Sailor. It'll be a fun and short debate ...
The main difference between Craft and Profession, as far as the rules go, is whether you're primarily manufacturing something.
Agreed.
Although it doesn't cover all situations (is it Craft (beer) or Profession (brewer)?),
It's both, but they don't do the same thing.
See my previous post in this thread.
A guy with ranks only in Craft(beer) would call himself a brewer. A guy with ranks only in Profession(brewer) would call himself a brewer. But there is a difference.
The craftsman can make a fine beer. Excellent, even masterful, if he has enough ranks. But ask him where to get the best hops at the best discount, or how to keep proper inventory in an accounting ledger, or what the king's taxes are on a keg of beer, or which taverns in town do the best business and so will buy the most beer, or how to find, hire, and pay fair wages for employees to work in his brewery - ask the craftsman these kinds of things and he's at quite a loss. All he knows is the fine art of brewing beer.
The professional brewer knows all that stuff, but he might not be any good at brewing beer at all. In fact, he might not even know how - perhaps he's just a shrewed businessman who bought a brewery cheap, hired a master brewer, and now he runs a business. He's dedicated to finding the best (and cheapest) suppliers, the best buyers to move his product, the best employees to staff his brewery, and too keeping inventory and accounting and other business needs in order. Maybe he ALSO brews the beer, but only if he has ranks in Craft(beer).
the main differences are the mental stat you're using (Int vs Wis)
Now that's just metagamey nonsense.
"Hey, I'm a moron but I happen to be a clever moron, so I'm going to be a professional!"
vs.
"Hey, I'm a genius but not wise enough to figure out which shoe goes on which foot, so I'm going to be a craftsman!
(And we both make exactly the same thing, in the same way, in the same time, for the same price).
Nonsense.
Fortunately, it doesn't work that way (see above and previous post) because there actually is a difference between craft and profession.
Come to think of it ... looking over the Profession options, why can't barbarians do this? It may seem odd for one to have Profession (librarian), but how about Brewer to supply all that ale they drink, or Butcher to make those huge hunks of meat to roast in the feast hall? And please try to tell me the Vikings never had Sailor. It'll be a fun and short debate ...
Maybe. It boils down to semantics. The simple definition of "barbarian".
Conan, for example, had many professions throughout his long and varied life, and not all of them were soldier and gladiator. He was even a politician. But he never really got paid for most of them, and he probably wasn't a barbarian his whole life either.
Even in a barbarian's own barbarous lands, professions like chief, shaman, hunter, fisher, sailor, scout, tracker, rain-dancer, weapon-maker, horse-tamer, book-burner, etc., probably all exist (some of those could be classes as well as professions).
But the difference is that barbarians, by definition, are not civilized enough to set up a storefront and open their doors for business. They don't have inventories, ledgers, taxes, and rolodexes full of suppliers and customers on speed-dial. By the time a barbarian village is big enough, stable enough, and cultured enough to have stores and taverns and night clubs and video game arcades, we probably have to stop calling them barbarians and start calling them civilized city-folk. Even if most of the tribe is still barbarous, those enterprising few who undertake actual professions have probably taken that all-important step upward on the social evolution ladder, out of barbarism and into civilisationism...
My guess is, the game developers recognized this and figured that if you want to play a fierce axe-swinging professional shoe salesman, your concept makes more sense as a fighter than as a barbarian.
(And we both make exactly the same thing, in the same way, in the same time, for the same price).
Side note, unfortunately, is that the official Downtime rules are so simplistic that they seem to suggest that my example here was actually true.
I'll submit, however, that the guy who makes cash in his downtime with a profession skill probably spent much of that time balancing books, paying wages, collecting payments from customers, avoiding tax collectors, keeping inventory, and stocking shelves, while the guy who made the same amount of cash in the same downtime doing the same job with a crafting skill actually made the stuff that the professional guy was selling.
More or less.
Did someone say overhaul the crafting system!!!
https://img.4plebs.org/boards/tg/image/1388/83/1388832309858.pdf
Edit: Awww darn someone beat me to it.
Hmm... example three seems to be portraying crafting horribly. If you change the auto-20 to the much more likely assuming of rolling 11's the difficult to craft object takes much much much much much much longer than the simple one.
... and it lets you craft castles in two weeks.
The pricing of structures in Pathfinder bothers me... I use the Stronghold Guide from 3.x... I like it's costs/times a LOT more.
In the Pathfinder world, Viking is an archetype of Fighter and can take Profession (Sailor) as a class skill. In fact, I'm looking forward to hopefully getting some bonus ranks in "background" skills from Pathfinder Unchained since it will allow my own Viking PC to improve his sailing skills.
I've always wished that PCs crafting equipment for themselves with the Craft skills worked in a somewhat more abstract manner which would allow characters to gain more benefit from those skills. The idea of a dwarf who is skilled at smithing making his own armor and weapons seems iconic, but many campaigns don't feature enough downtime to make such ambitions realistic. Something like "crafting points" gained with XP or as you level might help, but it isn't really a big deal, and just allowing more downtime would work too.
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It seems to me to properly show a job that involves making and selling something, one needs both Profession and Craft.
You want to be a professional armoursmith who crafts and sells armour, have ranks in both Profession (Armoursmith) and Craft (Armour). That in my eyes in the simplest and most logical answer, as to truly be good at the job you need to know both how to make and sell the armour.
Craft creates material items for personal/group use. Profession generates gold pieces (and sometimes substitutes for Knowledge). Profession: Armorsmith doesn't mean you are creating actual suits of armor. You could be melting ingots, tending the forge, creating molds, fitting armor, or sweeping the floor. Its there to generate income in your downtime before Ultimate Campaign was written.
As does Perform, but on a daily basis instead of weekly, albeit with far greater fluidity.
It seems to me to properly show a job that involves making and selling something, one needs both Profession and Craft.r.
Or to be part of a larger team. It was fairly common, for example, for the wife to manage "the front of the house" while the husband did the work, or vice versa.
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I understand crafting taking a long time for reasons of verisimilitude, because even in fantasy stories swords are not forged overnight, and armor is not quickly made, but for the sake of the game I would at least like a way, to craft more quickly if the player is willing to put resources into it.You mean besides the use of a scroll of fabricate?Yeah, something that anyone can do not just the magic people. :)
I am aware that UMD exist, but to be clear I mean without the use of magic.
Does getting a spell cast on you count? Crafter's fortune gives you a +5 on your next craft check. That can help things along a small bit.
It doesn't even require you to be able to cast magic. Hell, since it is a level 1 spell, just about any place should be able to get their hands on it.
That +5 is not going to really decrease the crafting time. Well is might if you are not able to make the +10 DC to make the item faster, but even then some items take forever to make. I was speaking of something that cuts the crafting time down to 1/2 or better.
I would say a feat that lets you use gold pieces instead of silver pieces but you people don't normally stay low level long enough for it to matter, and then they will just retrain the feat unless they are in something like Kingmaker.
Actually, per the crafting rules, that +5 will affect the crafting time.
Assuming a DC of 20, a skill of +15, and taking 10:
Normal: 25 (result) times 20 (DC) gives a weekly production of 500 sp or 50 gp value.
Adding in Crafter's Fortune, and adding the 10 to the craft DC:
DC now is 30, Craft is +15, +5 CF, Take 10 for 30
Result: 30 (result) times 30 (DC) gives 900 sp or 90 gp per week, almost double the non-CF result. 80% improvement.
Assume a target value of 400 gp for the item, and it will take 8 weeks normally, against only 5 weeks with CF.
Even for situations where it wouldn't let you increase the target DC by 10, it will still let you craft a bit faster, since it increases the result by 5 for the multiplication...
The main difference between Craft and Profession, as far as the rules go, is whether you're primarily manufacturing something.Agreed.
Although it doesn't cover all situations (is it Craft (beer) or Profession (brewer)?),It's both, but they don't do the same thing.
See my previous post in this thread.
A guy with ranks only in Craft(beer) would call himself a brewer. A guy with ranks only in Profession(brewer) would call himself a brewer. But there is a difference.
The craftsman can make a fine beer. Excellent, even masterful, if he has enough ranks. But ask him where to get the best hops at the best discount, or how to keep proper inventory in an accounting ledger, or what the king's taxes are on a keg of beer, or which taverns in town do the best business and so will buy the most beer, or how to find, hire, and pay fair wages for employees to work in his brewery - ask the craftsman these kinds of things and he's at quite a loss. All he knows is the fine art of brewing beer.
The professional brewer knows all that stuff, but he might not be any good at brewing beer at all. In fact, he might not even know how - perhaps he's just a shrewed businessman who bought a brewery cheap, hired a master brewer, and now he runs a business. He's dedicated to finding the best (and cheapest) suppliers, the best buyers to move his product, the best employees to staff his brewery, and too keeping inventory and accounting and other business needs in order. Maybe he ALSO brews the beer, but only if he has ranks in Craft(beer).
I actually don't like having to sink two skills into crafting and knowing what you're doing. I know other game systems do that, but given how often I've seen build guides slag off on Craft and Profession, I'd like to see them have some benefit, and requiring both (especially on classes that are hosed on skill points) seems harsh. And someone with Craft should have some idea of where to get the best materials from, since he or she is actually working with the stuff.
I wonder if part of the issue is that while Craft has actual DCs to roll against to do stuff, Profession really is just intended as a 'day job' skill (and why the barbarian class is left out, despite the amusing image of Amiri dealing with receipts and bills in Ultimate Campaign).