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I was just thinking, with the Open Gaming Liscence, that opened the door for 3rd party publishing, (by the way, was there 2nd party publishing?) which we were thankful for. We have Pathfidner.
I know some people would allow only Wizards of the Coast stuff, for their 3.5 D&D game. Others would only use the core rule books
What are people’s attitudes towards PDFs? Ones you download? Do you let them into yoru games? Not?
I was just thinking, with the Open Gaming Liscence, that opened the door for 3rd party publishing, (by the way, was there 2nd party publishing?) which we were thankful for. We have Pathfidner.
In my mind, 2nd party bublishing would be WOTC working with another company to produce a product. Perhaps, we could consider the Old Dungeon and Dragon magazines and/or the Shackled City hardback as 2nd party products??? Another example might be WOTC's version of Call of Cthulhu d20.
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I typically run my games using a "core rules only" restriction. It greatly simplifies my prep time, and since I don't have to keep up with every splatbook that comes out I don't have to worry quite so much about balance between core and non-core equipment/spells/etc.
Heck, my current group spends enough time trying to figure out how existing rules are supposed to work or how existing spells/feats/items interact that we really don't need to add more!
If/when I run my next campaign (current CotCT AP is almost done) I will probably loosen that rule a little bit. It'll start as core only, but I'll add one source book at a time, probably by introducing NPCs with the skills, feats, and abilities and then let the players choose them at the same time.
This might make it more difficult for players to plan their PCs far out in advance and I haven't decided what I'm going to do about that yet. On the one hand, no one plans their life as far in advance as players plan their PCs! On the other hand, optimization is all too often a necessity as every edge a PC can get helps them survive one more day...
I'm addicted to monster compendiums; I'll buy any that look like they might have good artwork, whether I use the damn thing or not. I prefer to use printed material only (PFRPG or 3rd party), but if I find something I really like, I'll use it without question.
I don't use 3rd party base classes, spells, PrCs, and so on. I like the archetype design Pathfinder has going for it; plus, I don't want my players to think they can dig up any unbalanced sack of crud and use it.
With 3rd party races, I'm a bit more lenient; if it's in print, I'll likely allow it. Weird rules for a weird GM.
As for 3rd party campaign settings and adventures: of course. I'm always open to new experiences whether playing or GMing; not to mention that a new 3rd party campaign setting means less work.
I'm not sure I entirely understand the question, but when has that ever stopped someone from responding online before?
In my Age of Worms campaign it's Pathfinder only, with the Core book and the APG being readily available. I told people companions were fair game too, but the only companion anyone went out and bought was orcs of golarion, purchased by the player who made a halfling rogue...
As DM I stick mostly to what I restricted my players to, but I know I will be adding in Chaositech from Mulhavoc, as the Free City in AoW is Ptolus in my version of Golarion. Beyond that...the Book of Vile Darkness will make an appearance (don't know about the magic item/artifact, but the sourcebook), as well as the Complete Book of Eldritch Might...I'd like to pretend I'm not a fanboy of Monte Cook, but even my imagination has limits...
As for PDFs...I use them a lot. My Core book was signed at Gencon the year it came out, so that baby hangs out in my bag durring the session, if I bring it at all. The days we sat down to work on characters I brought all my hard backs, but on a normal "adventuring" session it's just notebooks, printed out NPCs/monsters, and my laptop. I've been throwing in the old Falcon's Hollow adventures, and I'll normally use the PDF, but refer to the hardcopy map so I don't have to scroll up and down so much...and then obviously I bring the hard copy Dungeon issues.
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Well I guess my question is this: do you see a difference between materiel that has been published, printed, and PDFs?
Would you be more skeptical of the quality of a PDF?
Some people would only use the “Core Books” for their game in 3.5
Other people would allow other 3.5 “splat books”
Other people would allow 3rd party published books.
Now we have the Pathfinder Core book. And we have the other Pathfinder books.
We also have 3rd party Pathfinder materiel published in print.
We now also have 3rd party Pathfinder materiel.
I guess my question is weather people see a difference between materiel published in print and materiel published electronically?
Would there be a difference for people, if one of their players came up with say, the Tome of Secrets, book and wanted to play the “priest” class out of that book or if they came up with their lap top and they showed you the “secrets of Devine Channeling by Rite Publishing, and wanted to play the “divine channeler”?
Would you look at the game mechanics of the materiel or would the medium make a difference?
Would you assume the materiel published in print went through more thoroughly play testing and editing then electronic publishing?
Does it make a difference or not?
(by the way, was there 2nd party publishing?)
My understanding is the "second party" is usually the customer. So, for D&D, the first party is WotC, second party is the gaming group (who rarely publish, but usually write game stuff anyway), and third party is anyone else.
For Pathfinder, the first party is Paizo, but the rest remains the same.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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... if they came up with their lap top and they showed you the “secrets of Devine Channeling by Rite Publishing, and wanted to play the “divine channeler”?...
If they came in with 'Secrets of Devine Channeling' I'd be concerned. If it was 'Secrets of Divine Channeling' written by my good buddy Jonathan McAnulty with 3 reviewers giving it an average of 4.7 stars I'd give it the same consideration as a print product. I might want to see a print out of it so that I'd have time to look it over.
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Kyrt ryfder, thank you for your thoughts.
Lazerx, I guess metaphorically speaking, with every bucket of apples, you get a few questionable ones.
Ross Byers, thank you for the clarification.
Tarren Dei, please excuse me, spelling is one of my weaker suits. I was merely curious to see if people saw a difference between materiel published by printing, or published electronically by PDF. I was wondering if people had prejudices one way or another, or not at all.
I wasn’t trying to pick on “secrets of Divine Channeling”, it was the first PDF on my hard drive that sprung to mind. I had just read it a little while ago, and thought the Divine channeler to be an interesting class worth trying. I also thought it would be good to use as an example two similar, but different classes, namely the priest, and divine channeler.
Thank you for your thoughts, please keep them coming
i love 3PP. i try to use what i can in my games, especially when i play, but only PF Compatible products(has to have the logo on the product) and only on a case by case basis. other than that i try to stick to the core rulebooks. but the 3PP have so many options and good quality that its a waste not to use them in game, either as a player and as a gm.
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I posted something very similar in another thread, but I think it bares repeating here as well ...
As with anything coming from a 3rd party publisher, you have to be careful and stick to companies you trust that have a good, consistant track record of producing high quality material. As long as you do that, there is no reason at all to not give 3rd party stuff a try.
Speaking a someone that has some Pathfinder material published (you can always check my profile if you're really curious which ones :) I would stand behind what I've written for these companies as being balanced, interesting and fun to play!
3rd party content is allowed so long as I can look it over to confirm.
pdfs are preferable to hardcover, quite frankly.
I love 3rd Party stuff, but my players mostly don't care. Usually 3rd party stuff is my own little secret, and I throw it at my mostly standard players for fun. I'm addicted to making weird class combinations and weird classes in general, so I really like base/prestige classes.
Ease of transport I'm guessing? A single smartphone/E reader/laptop instead of a huge bag (or three) of books?3rd party content is allowed so long as I can look it over to confirm.
pdfs are preferable to hardcover, quite frankly.
Easier to read and find specific articles, on top of all that. I just find pdfs a thousand times more convinient.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Tarren Dei, please excuse me, spelling is one of my weaker suits. ... I wasn’t trying to pick on “secrets of Divine Channeling”, it was the first PDF on my hard drive that sprung to mind. I had just read it a little while ago, and thought the Divine channeler to be an interesting class worth trying. I also thought it would be good to use as an example two similar, but different classes, namely the priest, and divine channeler.
Hehe. Sorry Elyas, I was just taking advantage of the chance to plug a Rite Publishing product.
I use a fair amount of 3rd party material in my games. It's all done on an approval basis for my players and I add things in from time to time, using new classes to baffle them, or throwing in new items/spells in the treasure to spice things up. My group definately likes new material so 3rd party pdfs and print books help keep things new and interesting.
Though technically I dont actually use pdf's directly at my table. I have a rule, there must be a printed copy of the rules you are using at the table or you cant use it. I normally dont want laptops/ipads etc out at the table to avoid distraction, so any 3rd party stuff that is in pdfs is printed. I actually have 2 binders with printed material from Super Genius Games PDFs sitting next to my core rulebooks on my gaming shelf.
In general I'm all about third-party stuff, but like many who have already posted here I want to make sure everyone is cool with it before using it. So if I'm a player I always check with my GM, and when I'm GM'ing I have the player show it to me so I can verify it'll fit with the world in which I'm running the campaign.
As an aside, most of my players use PCGen or similar products in which support for 3PP seems to be quite spotty and requires some dedication to customizing the software, or else giving up and doing it all by hand. As a result of this, most just stick to whatever their software supports, which of course is a whole separate issue.
Sometimes I'll build NPCs based off of cool-looking 3PP stuff (Time Thief and Dragonrider from SGG are recent examples) just to see it how might work, in order to test it out before a player brings it up.
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What books I allow depend entirely on my players. I'm GMing a mix of experienced and new players these days. The experienced players will generally come to me with a character concept, taken from whatever material that player has available. In that case, I'll just look at the source, 3rd party or not, to see if it will fit with the campaign.
But for the new players I stick to the core books, and depending on the player I may even just stick with the main core book. I don't want to necessarily expose them to too much input right away, and hammering them with options from the hardcover material and the splat books and the 3rd party material... So I limit their choices until they seem comfortable with the system, and then slowly expose them to other possibilities.
As for a preference between .pdf and hardcover, it depends on where I'm playing. At my house, with all the books conveniantly on the shelf? Then I'll stick to hardcopy. But if I'm schlepping over to someone elses place to play, I'm definitely happy to have the .pdfs on my laptop.
I was just thinking, with the Open Gaming Liscence, that opened the door for 3rd party publishing, (by the way, was there 2nd party publishing?) which we were thankful for. We have Pathfidner.
I know some people would allow only Wizards of the Coast stuff, for their 3.5 D&D game. Others would only use the core rule books
What are people’s attitudes towards PDFs? Ones you download? Do you let them into yoru games? Not?
I look material over and decide what to use. Simple. I buy far more than I use btw, because I like to read. I'm pretty selective about what I let in.
I don't think I've ever used 3rd party material and I don't think I ever will.
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Well i currently run 2 Pathfinder games and I will for the most part buy a product if it is PDF only, and if I do it would not be any product that is for classes or races, usually only monster or adventure books. I have issues with my eyes and I have problems reading a print copy of a book let alone sitting for long periods reading a computer screen.
And I don't know, for some reason to me it seems like all the 3rd party stuff that introduces new classes or races and feats or rules just makes things more complicated than they all ready are. It also looks to me that some 3rd party stuff tries to go above and beyond current rules/power levels. But hey thats just me.
I dont allow anything but PFRPG offical in my games, however I do look to pdf for insperation, additional details, etc so they are a great source for adding the small details I like to my games.
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I was just thinking, with the Open Gaming Liscence, that opened the door for 3rd party publishing, (by the way, was there 2nd party publishing?) which we were thankful for. We have Pathfidner.In my mind, 2nd party bublishing would be WOTC working with another company to produce a product. Perhaps, we could consider the Old Dungeon and Dragon magazines and/or the Shackled City hardback as 2nd party products??? Another example might be WOTC's version of Call of Cthulhu d20.
More versions of second party publishing would be Kenzer Co's Kingdoms of Kalamar and Their Hackmaster line. Kingdoms of Kalamar was the only other company besides WotC that bore the Dungeons and Dragons Logo on their product.
Well I guess my question is this: do you see a difference between materiel that has been published, printed, and PDFs?
Not really; I rarely see print copies of third party material anyways.
Anything non-core (and some core things) in a game I GM has to be approved on a case-by-case basis, but I'm fairly liberal about things.
I was just thinking, with the Open Gaming Liscence, that opened the door for 3rd party publishing, (by the way, was there 2nd party publishing?) which we were thankful for. We have Pathfidner.
I know some people would allow only Wizards of the Coast stuff, for their 3.5 D&D game. Others would only use the core rule books
What are people’s attitudes towards PDFs? Ones you download? Do you let them into yoru games? Not?
I've let the stuff that is in the PRD into my games. Beyond that, I might allow the occasional 3rd edition feat into my game.
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Thank you all for your posts. PDFs are certainly useful. Portability is a big bonus. I suppose I could just go to a game, with PDFs of the core rulebook, the APG and the Bestiary and whatever I wanted on my laptop. Hmm. well I still like my hard covers.
Also the times I have ran an adventure path, I liked having both the printed adventure, as well as the PDF. Saved me the trouble of flipping from map to descriptive text and back again.
It seems for most of the posters, for them there is little difference between electronic and printed media.
As with anything, it is a good idea to go over the materiel with a fine-toothed comb. There is just as likely to be good game materiel in a printed book as an electronically printed PDF.
I will admit, I have a prejudice towards printed materiel. I guess I assume that there is a more rigorous editorial process to print materiel so it is more likely to be of higher quality.
I realize this may not be true
I will admit, I have a prejudice towards printed materiel. I guess I assume that there is a more rigorous editorial process to print materiel so it is more likely to be of higher quality.I realize this may not be true
I have the same prejudice but for me it's because I believe (rightly or wrongly) that someone able to get something published in book form is less likely to be an amateur just starting out and thus less prone to amateur mistakes.
I don't mean all PDFs are bad - just that I imagine you need some track record in order to get published by a professional company with the resources to produce print editions.
With the OGL, a lot of what gets called 'third party' is actually produced by people who are actually writers of the original D20. Add in their personal websites and projects and you find a multitude of differing takes on how to play the game. SFR has some interesting thoughts on 'Absolutes' on his websites, Monte Cooke has a 'Dungeon a day' (I think), and other writers have produced their own takes on traditional pillars of the game.
I allow material from super genius games and Open design, providing i can look the material over first.
I will admit, I have a prejudice towards printed materiel. I guess I assume that there is a more rigorous editorial process to print materiel so it is more likely to be of higher quality.I realize this may not be true
I have the same prejudice but for me it's because I believe (rightly or wrongly) that someone able to get something published in book form is less likely to be an amateur just starting out and thus less prone to amateur mistakes.
I don't mean all PDFs are bad - just that I imagine you need some track record in order to get published by a professional company with the resources to produce print editions.
I take it your not aware of the concept of the vanity print ;)
I allow all WotC 3.5 Books (the "brown" ones) and all Core Books from pathfinder.
My problem with books from other publisher is, that some of them are world/setting specific and, as I have some munchkins in my group, I fear to open pandoras box, if I allow to many books.
Yes, I do use 3pp in my games, from a deserts pdf to a fencing one to a book on adjudicating debates.
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There are a number of PDFs that I've used at my games, usually they cover things not really found in the core rules (such as firearms.)
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AKA 8one6
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My group allows some stuff from Super Genius Games on a case by case basis, depending on the campaign. In Kingmaker I am playing a Witch with some hexes from the recent SGG PDF. However, in the Souls For Smuggler's Shiv adventure on another night (run by the same GM as Kingmaker) nothing outside of Paizo is allowed.
In any case, the PDF must be printed out and available to the GM before anything can be used.
I allow nearly any compatible material at my table, including pdf material. As long as it has been printed out.
Pre-Pathfinder Gnomes were the only thing I did not allow at the table. I just couldn't stand them.
Thank you for your posts. Is a vanity print like a vanity press, where you pay the press to produce a certain number of texts you hire them to print?
Yes. That said, i am unaware of any RPG products that currently exist in paper form which exists only because the writer wanted to see it in print(though i suspect that more than a few indie games have a little of this to them), but the principle holds to a degree, just because something is in print, it does not neccissarily mean that it's production values are going to be greater than those of a product that exists only in a digital form.