Chief Technical Officer
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We'll provide more specifics about the Round 2 assignment early in the new year, but those of you who don't know anything about archetypes can get ahead of the game a little bit right now.
Archetypes were introduced in the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Advanced Player's Guide, and yesterday we added the Open Content from that book to the free online Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PRD).
To learn more about archetypes in particular, you'll want to start reading here.
This cannot be delved into too deeply!
This cannot be delved into too deeply!
You... just...
+1.
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It might be an idea to have a thread about archetypes stickied at the top of this forum. :-?
As mentioned elsewhere. What makes a Superstar is someone who knows how to get the information they need. But, on the other side of that coin, when they post the rules for the round, I'm sure they will provide you the same information that Vic just provided.
and yesterday we added the Open Content from that book to the free online Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PRD).
I was going through the PRD, and I was like... I don't remember there being so many menu options... Holy cow, that's the advanced players guide!
Asides from pathfinder being awesome in general, I want to say that Paizo gains extra points in my books for putting all the important content for free online. It just shows how awesome you all are.
Asides from pathfinder being awesome in general, I want to say that Paizo gains extra points in my books for putting all the important content for free online. It just shows how awesome you all are.
It is more than enough to make me want to buy the books... in fact, multiple copies of the books so that I don't have to share the copy I use with the players.
Thank you Vic, these links were extremely helpful. I'm always worried that I'm going to reinvent things that already exist (or close to it) and sure enough two Archetypes I essentially had in mind were already there, whew!
There does not seem to be much in the way of description of the archetype before the abilities are stated.
There does not seem to be much in the way of description of the archetype before the abilities are stated.
Probably because the archetypes in the APG are pretty well-known and require little description.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I'd like to know a little bit more about how they work. I'll use the Archivist Archetype of the Bard as my example.
Lore Master (Ex): At 2nd level, an archivist may take 20 on Knowledge checks once per day, plus once per six levels beyond 2nd. This ability replaces versatile performance.
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Jack of All Trades (Ex): At 5th level, an archivist can use any skill, even if the skill normally requires him to be trained. At 11th level, he considers all skills to be class skills, and at 17th level he can take 10 on any skill check, even if it is not normally allowed. This ability replaces lore master.
Probable Path (Ex): At 10th level, an archivist can calculate the action likely to bring success with the least risk. Once per day, he can take 10 on any d20 roll. He may use this ability one additional time per day for every three levels after 10th. This ability replaces jack of all trades.
So, the lore master ability offers multiple uses at 8th and 14th level. But it gets replaced by jack of all trades at 5th level, so 8th level bards never get to use lore master. Again, jack of all trades is replaced at 10th level, so why should an 11th-level bard care what the no-longer-available class ability offers?
Obviously, I'm confused.
I'd like to know a little bit more about how they work. I'll use the Archivist Archetype of the Bard as my example.
Lore Master (Ex): At 2nd level, an archivist may take 20 on Knowledge checks once per day, plus once per six levels beyond 2nd. This ability replaces versatile performance.
...
Jack of All Trades (Ex): At 5th level, an archivist can use any skill, even if the skill normally requires him to be trained. At 11th level, he considers all skills to be class skills, and at 17th level he can take 10 on any skill check, even if it is not normally allowed. This ability replaces lore master.
Probable Path (Ex): At 10th level, an archivist can calculate the action likely to bring success with the least risk. Once per day, he can take 10 on any d20 roll. He may use this ability one additional time per day for every three levels after 10th. This ability replaces jack of all trades.
So, the lore master ability offers multiple uses at 8th and 14th level. But it gets replaced by jack of all trades at 5th level, so 8th level bards never get to use lore master. Again, jack of all trades is replaced at 10th level, so why should an 11th-level bard care what the no-longer-available class ability offers?
Obviously, I'm confused.
When it says 'this ability replaces x', it's referring to the ability a non-archtyped character would get at that level, not to abilities the Archetype has already gained. In this case, a standard bard would gain Versatile Performance at 2nd, Lore Master at 5th, and Jack of All Trades at 10th. The Archivist, being a bit more lore oriented, gets those abilities shuffled around. He doesn't LOSE Lore Master or Jack of All trades, he just gets them earlier. He loses Versatile Performance, though, since that is an ability that's simply replaced without gaining another version of it.
The most difficult aspect of generating a new archetype will be properly evaluating the value of "x" and then creating a new and refreshing (creative, tasteful, rules-fu sound and superstar) "y" to replace it with.
This is more difficult when dealing with classes with spell-casting as their primary feature.
Very astute, Hassan.
Thank you, for the encouraging words. We'll have to wait and see how far astute can get us.
Looking forward to it. The Archtypes sound far more interesting to me than the items round. I'm curious how far people will push the envelope.
Grognard ("old soldier")
Clearly a product of a bygone and ancient era, the Grognard is one who is thought to have great knowledge, wisdom and authority in a certain area, and who uses it to guide others. The Grognard however rarely fulfills these lofty expectations and instead these relic-warriors hymn songs long forgotten, tell tales which have no modern context, and whisper wisdom that usually make no sense what-so ever. Despite this, the Grognard's complaining and grumbling is often whimsical and even occasionally poignant.
A More Elegant Time (Ex): The entire campaign is converted to a campaign using a previous edition of the current game system. Pathfinder is converted to 3.5, 3.5 to 3.0, 3.0 to 2nd Edition AD&D, 2nd Edition AD&A to 1st edition AD&D, 1st edition AD&D to Moldvay D&D B/X, Moldvay D&D B/X to Whitebox OD&D, and Whitebox OD&D to Chainmail. If the current campaign is run using Chainmail, then the Players must thereafter engage in actual physical or magical combat.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Looking forward to it. The Archtypes sound far more interesting to me than the items round. I'm curious how far people will push the envelope.
Same here. The difference in how the archetypes are presented varies wildly. I wonder if they will allow bloodlines, domains and wizard schools to be created. They aren't really archetypes but there are still different types of each that could be added.
Looking forward to it. The Archtypes sound far more interesting to me than the items round. I'm curious how far people will push the envelope.Same here. The difference in how the archetypes are presented varies wildly. I wonder if they will allow bloodlines, domains and wizard schools to be created. They aren't really archetypes but there are still different types of each that could be added.
They had said that they only want archetypes, not new bloodlines, domains, schools, etc.
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They had said that they only want archetypes, not new bloodlines, domains, schools, etc.
Interesting, as those are all listed under "Archetypes" in the SRD.
Interesting, as those are all listed under "Archetypes" in the SRD.
They had said that they only want archetypes, not new bloodlines, domains, schools, etc.
It makes sense to me from a competition perspective -- I think there's a little more balance-fu to creating a new fighter archetype than there is to creating a new domain.
Or to look at it with wondrous item auto-reject goggles, a domain is like 9 or more spells in a can + some possibly interesting granted powers, whereas a fighter class archetype's abilities (for example) probably wouldn't be SIACish.
I think there's also a little more thinking in that for an archetype you're deciding what to cut and what to add and trying to get those things to balance out, whereas bloodlines/domains/schools are more choices of what to add, if that makes sense.
As I don't yet own an Adv. Players' Guide, I'd like to clarify what I understand as what as Archetype is:
- An Archetype takes a core class and replaces one class feature with a new one?
That's it?
Could I replace two or more class features, or is that not allowed? Perhaps replacing two or more class features results in a subclass, instead?
I'm trying not to underestimate...but this seems sort of anticlimactic.
As I don't yet own an Adv. Players' Guide, I'd like to clarify what I understand as what as Archetype is:
- An Archetype takes a core class and replaces one class feature with a new one?
That's it?
Could I replace two or more class features, or is that not allowed? Perhaps replacing two or more class features results in a subclass, instead?
I'm trying not to underestimate...but this seems sort of anticlimactic.
One of the links provided in the first post will take you to the PRD, which contains all the Archetypes from the APG.
To answer your question, an Archetype can replace as many class features as you like, though you have to consider how many changes you can make and retain the class identity (also: word count).
Sorry, not fancy...
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/advancedCoreClasses.html
One of the links provided in the first post will take you to the PRD, which contains all the Archetypes from the APG.
To answer your question, an Archetype can replace as many class features as you like, though you have to consider how many changes you can make and retain the class identity (also: word count).
I read the PRD; it answered none of my questions - it was just a list of Archetypes. Useful for not creating one that's already been done, but otherwise vague on the actual definition of Archetype.
I've been gathering research and coming to an idea, so it will have to do by the time the Top 32 are announced.
No need to sweat it unless I get picked; who knows - it might be luck that makes me study up on this topic :-)
One of the links provided in the first post will take you to the PRD, which contains all the Archetypes from the APG.
To answer your question, an Archetype can replace as many class features as you like, though you have to consider how many changes you can make and retain the class identity (also: word count).
I read the PRD; it answered none of my questions - it was just a list of Archetypes. Useful for not creating one that's already been done, but otherwise vague on the actual definition of Archetype.
I've been gathering research and coming to an idea, so it will have to do by the time the Top 32 are announced.
No need to sweat it unless I get picked; who knows - it might be luck that makes me study up on this topic :-)
If you click the class names in the list, it takes you to full descriptions of the Archetypes. Hopefully that will help you out.
One of the links provided in the first post will take you to the PRD, which contains all the Archetypes from the APG.
To answer your question, an Archetype can replace as many class features as you like, though you have to consider how many changes you can make and retain the class identity (also: word count).
Word count is set at 450, if I recall from other posts. That should be enough for two maybe three decent swaps. So the trick will be to get the point of your archetype across quickly as well as making it stand out from the crowd.
Could I replace two or more class features, or is that not allowed?
Yes, you can. For instance the Sable Company Ranger archtype replaces three abilities with one. There are also several in the APG which state they replace two separate abilities.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Word count is set at 450, if I recall from other posts. That should be enough for two maybe three decent swaps. So the trick will be to get the point of your archetype across quickly as well as making it stand out from the crowd.
More than enough room for most the classes. Reworking the wiz and sorc are being a pain in the tookus, but can be done.
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Looking forward to it. The Archtypes sound far more interesting to me than the items round. I'm curious how far people will push the envelope.
Grognard ("old soldier")
Clearly a product of a bygone and ancient era, the Grognard is one who is thought to have great knowledge, wisdom and authority in a certain area, and who uses it to guide others. The Grognard however rarely fulfills these lofty expectations and instead these relic-warriors hymn songs long forgotten, tell tales which have no modern context, and whisper wisdom that usually make no sense what-so ever. Despite this, the Grognard's complaining and grumbling is often whimsical and even occasionally poignant.
A More Elegant Time (Ex): The entire campaign is converted to a campaign using a previous edition of the current game system. Pathfinder is converted to 3.5, 3.5 to 3.0, 3.0 to 2nd Edition AD&D, 2nd Edition AD&A to 1st edition AD&D, 1st edition AD&D to Moldvay D&D B/X, Moldvay D&D B/X to Whitebox OD&D, and Whitebox OD&D to Chainmail. If the current campaign is run using Chainmail, then the Players must thereafter engage in actual physical or magical combat.
+1!
I would play this archtype all over the place. According to my gaming friends, I already do... ;)
Looking forward to it. The Archtypes sound far more interesting to me than the items round. I'm curious how far people will push the envelope.
Grognard ("old soldier")
Clearly a product of a bygone and ancient era, the Grognard is one who is thought to have great knowledge, wisdom and authority in a certain area, and who uses it to guide others. The Grognard however rarely fulfills these lofty expectations and instead these relic-warriors hymn songs long forgotten, tell tales which have no modern context, and whisper wisdom that usually make no sense what-so ever. Despite this, the Grognard's complaining and grumbling is often whimsical and even occasionally poignant.
A More Elegant Time (Ex): The entire campaign is converted to a campaign using a previous edition of the current game system. Pathfinder is converted to 3.5, 3.5 to 3.0, 3.0 to 2nd Edition AD&D, 2nd Edition AD&A to 1st edition AD&D, 1st edition AD&D to Moldvay D&D B/X, Moldvay D&D B/X to Whitebox OD&D, and Whitebox OD&D to Chainmail. If the current campaign is run using Chainmail, then the Players must thereafter engage in actual physical or magical combat.
90' White Wolf Fan (Ex ("Roleplayer")
Between sunglasses being worn in doors, the pile of Indie comics and some of the better Vertigo books and the leather pants, this gamer is clearly cooler than you ever could be. You really should just go home, because you'll never measure up.
Discuss metaplot(Ex): Once per hour, as a free action, the 90' White Wolf Fan can dominate the game with discussion of obscure elements of the vampire meta-plot for 15 minutes. While this ability is in use, the game cannot progress. This ability replaces 'Killing s!+% and taking it's stuff'
Discuss "cool" comics and music(Ex): Once per hour, as a free action, the 90' White Wolf Fan can dominate the game with discussion of obscure indie comics, awesome bands no one else knows about and last nights party for 15 minutes. While this ability is in use, the game cannot progress. This ability replaces 'Argue about rules.'
Obsess over awesome lesbian half-Japanese group member(Ex): Once per hour, as a free action, the 90' White Wolf Fan can loose track of time, contributing nothing meaningful to the game for 15 minutes. While this ability is in use, the game cannot progress, as the target if this obession is so creeped out that flaming arguments limit game play. This ability replaces 'My 13th level paladin...'
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Rules Lawyer (Ex): As a free action the Rules Lawyer can stop any action that they "think" is against the standard rules. You can force the Game Master to pull out a nearby rule book to verify your claims (the GM can also pull up an official website to verify the information also). If the Rules Lawyer is correct, than the previous action is reversed and the Rules Lawyer is free to gloat. If the Rules Lawyer is proven wrong, the action is resumed but the Rules Lawyer is free to grumble that he's sure he read an errata somewhere.
Rules Lawyer (Ex): As a free action the Rules Lawyer can stop any action that they "think" is against the standard rules. You can force the Game Master to pull out a nearby rule book to verify your claims (the GM can also pull up an official website to verify the information also). If the Rules Lawyer is correct, than the previous action is reversed and the Rules Lawyer is free to gloat. If the Rules Lawyer is proven wrong, the action is resumed but the Rules Lawyer is free to grumble that he's sure he read an errata somewhere.
We have a house rule on this. Any 'argument' of a rule defaults to the GM's interpretation and any corrections can be retconned post-game. Any 'discussion' that lasts two minutes is an argument. Recently I have added: any person who points out the two minute deadline gets bonus XP. :)