Looking at running a spell casting, "Wild Mystic," type of Druid for the first time. We start at 7th level and end at 13th or so. Just about anything Pathfinder has published is legal. With that in mind, from an optimized point of view,:
I'm wondering if losing the animal companion for the additional spells of a domain is worth it
I'm seeking help in feats beyond Augment Summoning and Natural Spell
I'm not sure and won't know what the other four PC's will be. And yes, I have read Treantmonk's Guide. I look forward to your suggestions in generating a competent Druid.
God, join the club. I've been tinkering with a druid concept for the last month that I'm gonna play in January for a long running campaign. About the same level, too.
Some things to consider:
- As a "Wild Mystic," your main game is spellcasting. Taking a domain is a gain of 4 to 7 additional spells per day. At low levels the druid just fails as a primary spellcaster compared to other full casters. You don't have anything but your orisons to fall back on when you run out of spells. This isn't much of a problem past 5th level, but you'll likely still be aware of it until 10+.
- Druid domains kinda suck. They're heavily populated with blasts & situational boons. Some of the archtypes give you access to additional domains, but each comes with a significant tradeoff.
- Animal companions are very powerful at low levels and lose steam past 10th level.
- Animal companions are competent allies, and benefit from many of the spells you can cast, keeping them versatile during the course of your career.
- A domain, especially the ones the archtypes offer, will grant you access to spells outside of the druid list, increasing your versatility.
My point is simple, really. No matter your choice you're going to be fine. The level range of your campaign seems to fall right in the middle of where both options are equally useful and powerful. Take the one that offers you the flavor you're looking for. Animal companions offer the flavor of a beastial druid, while domains offer the flavor of a spiritualistic druid.
.
..
...
....
.....
Your glorious leader has also been pondering such ponderables..
..personally, I don't like animal companions. They seem to die horribly in our campaigns.
::
So, I've been looking at:
Teleporting wildshaping at high levels and move 60ft/round at 2nd level (30ft base + 10ft Travel domain then +20ft for 2 1minute bursts with aspect).
At higher levels he can simply shapeshift but having an additional source of increased speed is always a bonus - what shapeshifting saves on spell slots, additional sources of increased move save on shapeshifting.
The theme would be a coyote-shaman type. Tricky bugger. Spells, sneaky, etc...
..and being able to chat to dogs/canines as early as 2nd for 2+ minutes a day would really help with information gathering.
Take the charm domain. Pick up a trait to make Diplomacy a class skill. Enjoy wandering from settlement to settlement, keeping an eye on how the communities are developing, help to ease troubles, keep tabs on whats what. Probably working with more traditional druids to keep an eye on how the civilised world is developing.
Hmmm....
..personally, I don't like animal companions. They seem to die horribly in our campaigns.
Well ponder this; today its your companion... remove the companion and tomorrow ITS YOU :P
| 11 people marked this as a favorite. |
.
..personally, I don't like animal companions. They seem to die horribly in our campaigns.
Flankbots are never long-lived. But they are always full of glory.
For every dead animal companion there is a rogue who on some cold windswept nights holds a photo of a crocodile in his hands and wipes the tears from his eyes and whispers "You were my hero."
For every dead animal companion there is a rogue who on some cold windswept nights holds a photo of a crocodile in his hands and wipes the tears from his eyes and whispers "You were my hero."
Well said!
Whether or not you want to play with two minis instead of one is a big play-style decision. My first instinct is to tell you to pick whatever you prefer without worrying about which is more optimized. On the other hand, you wouldn't be asking for advice if you already had a strong preference.
If you knew what the other players were making, this decision would be much easier. For example, if you're in a party with a Bard, a Summoner, and a Conjurer, take the Animal Companion! In a party where you'll be the only healer, consider the domain.
Have you considered being mounted? Cat and Wolf both increase size to Large at 7th level. The big cat has Grab, Pounce, and Rake, and the wolf has Trip. Both are excellent battle mounts.
For every dead animal companion there is a rogue who on some cold windswept nights holds a photo of a crocodile in his hands and wipes the tears from his eyes and whispers "You were my hero."
Wow, I laughed out loud at that!
Seriously, animal companions aren't that fragile! Just don't treat them like a class feature and remember to buff them & pass on old gear and you'll be fine. Every animal companion will benefit from light barding, and most could do with a quick druid buff or two.
Seriously, animal companions aren't that fragile!
I agree with your strategies for keeping animal companions alive, but some GMs just like to kill them. There are some GMs I've played with who just couldn't help but direct their nastiest attacks at pets. I think it's because they're adverse to killing PCs (which I appreciate!) but really want to prove how deadly the enemies are.
Have you guys seen the new 'Smoke' subdomain? The first level power is a small debuff with NO SAVE (and no touch attack required) and you get pyrotechnics at second level and stinking cloud at third...which seems awesome...though the rest of the spells are not great. I was having a hard time deciding between that and the 'Storms' subdomain...which also seems pretty OK.
Sean Fitzsimmon: You've echoed my thoughts, albeit with more detail and clarity.
I think I'll go with Animal Companion as it will be a flankbot and instant defense for the party for the levels we're doing.
As for feats, seems like Improved Initiative and Toughness(@1st Level) are good choices.
1. Toughness, Spell Focus(Conj.) for Human bonus Feat
3. Augment Summoning
5. Natural Spell
7. Imp. Initiative
-End of committed Feats as we start at 7th-
9. Extend Spell
11. OPEN
13. OPEN
PS: I think I have to switch my mindset somewhat from 3.5 builds where you can "win" on character generation to make amazing builds. For better or worse that's not what Pathfinder does, seemingly.
Sean Fitzsimmon: You've echoed my thoughts, albeit with more detail and clarity.
I think I'll go with Animal Companion as it will be a flankbot and instant defense for the party for the levels we're doing.
As for feats, seems like Improved Initiative and Toughness(@1st Level) are good choices.
1. Toughness, Spell Focus(Conj.) for Human bonus Feat
3. Augment Summoning
5. Natural Spell
7. Imp. Initiative
-End of committed Feats as we start at 7th-
9. Extend Spell
11. OPEN
13. OPENPS: I think I have to switch my mindset somewhat from 3.5 builds where you can "win" on character generation to make amazing builds. For better or worse that's not what Pathfinder does, seemingly.
Sounds like a good build. One thing I've noticed is that most druid builds look startlingly similar before 10th level. The basics (augment summoning, improved initiative, natural spell) are just too good to pass up for a nature mage.
For an animal companion, might I suggest a Wolf or Roc? Both make sturdy combatants (wolf more than the Roc), have nifty combat maneuvers they can fall back on, and (my new favorite) are excellent debuffers!
At 7th level your companion gets 3 feats. If you put your first ability score increase into intelligence they get access to any feat, though the first two need to be from the animal list: Weapon Focus & Intimidating Prowess. Put all your skill points into intimidate. Then, grab Dazzling Display after its Int is 3 and you've got a debuff machine. One enemy? "Sic 'em." Many enemies? "Speak." Later pick up Skill focus, perhaps even persuasion. Because they're size Large they won't often end up with penalties to their intimidate checks, which is nice.
They both make good mounts, too.
Big cat animal companion is awesome ... throw animal growth on it and it's double plus awesome.
Is a druid with a domain viable? (Or with one of the other animal companions for that matter.) Viable yes, less effective also yes. The big cat animal companion has too much damage output to be able to be compensated for by bonus spells.
The animal domain (with big cat) together with the boon companion feat is of course the best of both world ... but that's limburger.
The animal domain spells are pretty terrible, but they do get access to Beast Shape III, which you can cast on your animal companion for extra greatness.
|
Big cat animal companion is awesome ... throw animal growth on it and it's double plus awesome.
Is a druid with a domain viable? (Or with one of the other animal companions for that matter.) Viable yes, less effective also yes. The big cat animal companion has too much damage output to be able to be compensated for by bonus spells.
The animal domain (with big cat) together with the boon companion feat is of course the best of both world ... but that's limburger.
am I missing something cause I thought boon companion feat only allowed you to increase your Animal companion up to your druid level or increased it by 4 levels so long as not exceeding your druid level?
if you only play a druid (ie no multiclass) how does boon companion help?
Big cat animal companion is awesome ... throw animal growth on it and it's double plus awesome.
Is a druid with a domain viable? (Or with one of the other animal companions for that matter.) Viable yes, less effective also yes. The big cat animal companion has too much damage output to be able to be compensated for by bonus spells.
The animal domain (with big cat) together with the boon companion feat is of course the best of both world ... but that's limburger.
am I missing something cause I thought boon companion feat only allowed you to increase your Animal companion up to your druid level or increased it by 4 levels so long as not exceeding your druid level?
if you only play a druid (ie no multiclass) how does boon companion help?
Druids who choose the Animal domain as their Nature Bond get an animal companion at Druid -3.
I've been playing with the concept of playing a druid who habitually takes the for of a dire wolf and focuses of wind/air spells.
I mean to be the big bad who will blow your house down.
So should I be a totem druid with a wolf companion? should I take a domain-air or weather- or a subdomain-wind or storm (respectively)? What would take this admittingly under-powered concept and play it to it's best?
.
..personally, I don't like animal companions. They seem to die horribly in our campaigns.
Flankbots are never long-lived. But they are always full of glory.
For every dead animal companion there is a rogue who on some cold windswept nights holds a photo of a crocodile in his hands and wipes the tears from his eyes and whispers "You were my hero."
Beautiful :)
That's the thing, see:
I'd want my animal companion at home, tucked safely into his/her/misc's bed. The idea of dragging them down a dark dungeon and exposing them to the horrors that lurk OUT THERE...
..well, ya know?
Ya know?
The world is so cruel!
My kingmaker campaign currently has an evocation specialist druid. She took the weather domain and it is working out great. Summons have really been not worth the action cost so far. Until you hit lvl 5 I would not bother with augment summoning. For a game ending in the low teens, a blaster would work well. Ball lightning is particularly useful, with the -4 save for metal armor.
I agree with the sentiment that animal companions die horribly. The further you play from 15 point buy and standard wbl, the more this is true.
Wow, never thought of that... so for 1 feat, Druids get an extra spell slot at every level with the animal domain. That's really powerful.
I also never thought of it, but that makes an awesome inquisitor... especially since that gives you a good pal for the Lookout feat.
Let's be frank, though. The animal domain sucks. A quick examination shows you this:
1 - Calm animals - Awful.
2 - Hold animal - Awful.
3 - Dominate animal - 1 round per level? Awful.
4 - Summon Nature's Ally IV (Animals Only) - Mediocre. It's a dulled down version of what you're already good at.
5 - Beast Shape III - Surprisingly good, actually. You can cast this on your familiar to gain some interesting bonuses. Pick a familiar with a high strength and change it into something with a lot of natural attacks.
6 - Antilife Shell - Awesome for casters, not that great for melee types.
7 - Animal Shapes - Pretty terrible. Having this available every day will likely cause you to come up with some reasons to cast it, but still.
8 - Summon Nature's Ally VIII (Animals Only) - There are no animals at this level. Awesome.
9 - Shapechange - Already on your list, sure, but an extra casting doesn't hurt. It's a crap spell for the druid, but a fantastic spell to cast on an animal companion.
With the two alternate domains, you instead get:
Feather:
2 - Feather Fall - Definitely a step up. Will probably go unused most days, but excellent when needed. Could help in dungeon crawls.
3 - Fly - Excellent for melee types, as you won't have to compromise a flying form for a good combat form. Definitely a step up.
6 - Mass Fly - Not bad. An even trade for most parties.
Fur:
1 - Magic Fang - Lame, but not lamer than Calm Animals.
3 - Beast Shape I (animals only) - Same with Beast Shape III, use it to give your animal companion extra attack options. Can also be used for melee types with limited access to Wild Shape. Not bad.
So, is that worth a feat for you?
|
You left out the ability to swift up 10 feat of movement and get +2 init if you act in surprise round; or increase your fly 1 step. And yes, the subdomain spells, even if they're not the best in the world, are a very powerful feat... probably more than I can get from any other feat. Absolutely, and if I build a Druid i would almost certainly go in this direction.
I like animal companions. And if your DM allows the ones in the Bestiary I would give those a gander. The ankylosaurus, roc and t-rex are awesome (they are also only large, so you don't have to worry about trying to figure out how to get a gargantuan t-rex everywhere with you). From the main book i like the wolf and large cat. You can buff the crap out of your pet and effectively use them the same way you would a really good summon. That's my two cents.
Yes domains are viable, but aside from the travel domain or the feather side of the animal domain nothing druids can get really interests me.
To all the creative suggestions, thanks- you've given me a lot to ponder.
Sean Fitz: I wish you would have been one of the play testers, or editors, of the Pathfinder system. Your observations show many weaknesses in these rules. Seemingly, the writers had a grudge against 3.5 Druid power and got out the nerf bat which sometimes transformed to a nerf noose.
Seemingly, the writers had a grudge against 3.5 Druid power and got out the nerf bat which sometimes transformed to a nerf noose.
Yup. But to be fair, the druid was clearly one of the strongest classes in 3.5 (and is probably the only class of the strongest that's already dominant at level 1), and while it's weaker in PF it's still a really, really good class.
(Also one that I think is really fun to play. YMMV!)
|
|
Druids were effectively the best characters in 3.5; full spell casting, could dump all physical stats starting level 6, and got an animal companion at least on the damage output of rogues, and usually with a free special attack.
Now they can still be combat gods (outdoing even fighters), but they have to keep their physical high. The companion is still amazing at low-to-mid, but loses steam. They still make great control casters/summoners, though if you are strictly support I generally prefer the more open list of Oracle of Nature.
But they are still amazing. Best still? No. But up there.
Animal companions, if you are a druid, can be made into pretty solid glass jaw fighters. Sometimes just decent combat characters in general. It just depends on what you want to do with them. You could easily have a t-rex doing 5d6+30 or more damage (before vital strike or power attack) with a couple of buff spells. Couple this with bardic or wizard buffs like haste and you've got something that is doing enough damage output to chunk through DR (or just greater magic fang them since they have one attack).
While this isn't comparable to many melee builds, it's some pretty decent damage, and you're not really giving up too much to do so. (the above takes 3 spells). You're still a druid that continue to cripple the battlefield with nature spells, some AoE damage, and summons.
Seemingly, the writers had a grudge against 3.5 Druid power and got out the nerf bat which sometimes transformed to a nerf noose.Yup. But to be fair, the druid was clearly one of the strongest classes in 3.5 (and is probably the only class of the strongest that's already dominant at level 1), and while it's weaker in PF it's still a really, really good class.
(Also one that I think is really fun to play. YMMV!)
I agree, the current PF druid is still a very strong class. 3.5 druid was capable of stronger melee than most regular melee classes, better summoning than a wizard, and could cast as effectively as any cleric. And then she got a fun little ally that upped her action economy. No class should be able to do that.
The PF druid requires you to specialize, same as any other caster, but you can still be incredibly effective. And more than that, druids have the most opportunities to gain from new books- as soon as they're out. New monsters will give the druid more versatility, while probably not much more power. Still, they'll eventually release a plant creature worth shifting into. (Hopefully)
Druids are still awesome; they're just not the class to play. Melee druids still benefit from a large portion of the druid spell list, since many of the best crowd control spells don't require saves- and summoning/buffs never do.
.
..
...
....
.......
..
::
...
..
....
My god, it's like braille!
@OP: Tempest and Storm Druid get spontaneous domain spells. It's pretty sexy.
|
|
I'm looking at building a level 1 druid, and clearly the AC is amazingg that early.
But how does it falloff?
Looking at the badger... by level 5 it's got heavy armor prof and an o-yori (magical?).
The falloff will be it's attack mods I guess, but there are still buffs. If all else fails, cast anthropomorphic animal on it and have the wizard cast weapon prof katana.
Heres my take on it.
If you have something specific you want to accomplish with your druid, pick a domain that boosts that. I often like to charge and pounce, so the plains domain is nice if you want to do that.
If you don't have any particular druid build in mind, pick the animal companion.
[rototype00
Having played a 3.5 druid that was converted to Pathfinder in mid-campaign, I can attest to the nerf-bat bruises all over the class.
But all that meant is that the druid went from god-like awesomeness to more level appropriate awesomeness. She's still the strongest character in the party, still is by far the most versatile and, at least I think, the most flavorful as well.
Love druids. Yeah they aren't quite the all-powerful forces of nature that they were in 3.5, but they still rock the place hard when played right.
@Deuxhero:
Pack Tactics (Ex): At 8th level, as a free action on your turn, you can designate an adjacent square; your attacks are treated as coming from that square for the purposes of determining whether or not you are flanking (this applies even if that square is occupied by an object or creature). This ends at the start of your next turn or if you move. If you are flanking a creature without using this ability, you may add your Wisdom bonus to your attack roll rather than the normal +2 flanking bonus. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.
EDIT: woops, bolding is confusing
"If read" is how you read it :P
Another idea to bring up, Wild shape into a mega raptor with a Deinonychus animal companion and use Strong Jaw. Your companion literally gains 2d8 +1d6 +1d4(turning the 1d4 bite into a 1d8) and you gain 5d6 +1d8 as a bonus to your regular natural attacks. To top it off you both have pounce and should be able to do this by level 7 or so without problems. Add in AOMF (fury born, holy, or acid/flame), and barding Rhino Hide or wild Rhino Hide as items adds phenomenal extra damage as well. Sometime around level 10, squeeze in coordinated charge and you can then do this;
Turn 1 you charge something, your companion charges as well. both pounce, thing dies.
Turn 1 your companion then charges something, you now get to charge it as well, both pounces thing dies.
Turn 2 you charge next thing, cycle repeats.
Turn 2 your companion charges something, cycle repeats.
You now can charge 2 things a turn, pounce twice, and essentially get 2 full round actions a turn. Ditto for your companion. With the lookout teamwork feat, you can even full-round charge in the surprise round.
Special mention goes to the AOMF Fury-born. With 4 natural attacks and pounce, you gain a +1 enhancement bonus every time one of your attacks hit. Round 1, thats +0, +1, +2, +3, +4 if all hit, otherwise, you can expect +2 or 3. Round 2 you can easily hit +5 so long as you attack the same guy and so long as the guy you attack actually survives. this works well with the bolt of lightning style that this build focuses on and does not work all that well against lots of little mooks, but the big bad? He better watch out! As a bonus, your favoured class bonus grants your companion extra damage equal to your level X2 (1/2 level, 4 attacks).
Another thing to consider is dragon style feat, charge through your teammate and ignore difficult terrain is gold.
snip awesomeness
Lots of good advice there Gobo. I can't believe I missed fury born for an AOMF, its probably the cheapest way to get a +5 enhancement out of that.
prototype00
snip awesomenessLots of good advice there Gobo. I can't believe I missed fury born for an AOMF, its probably the cheapest way to get a +5 enhancement out of that.
prototype00
that made me laugh! Ya that is a good way to get large bonuses, its main drawbacks are that it needs to build up, and dosent transfer to other creatures. It works well with other 'high number of attack' builds as well. Monks, wild rager barbarians, twf rangers, and the 'Nat Att Rat'.
Nar the Rattata
Ratkin alchemist (vicectionist/beatmorph)
start with adopted (toothy), sharpclaw feat, and tail weapon.
4 natural attacks at level 1
next go for alchemist and aim for vestigal arms, tentacle, and ferral mutigen.
you now have 7 natural attacks.
Also consider a 2 level dip into Wild Rager barbarian and take lesser fiend totem power.
8 natural attacks with one attacking twice. At level 10 (12 if you diped barbarian) you gain pounce.
Items to consider: AOMF with fury born or haste or (for a suicidal laugh) vicious. Rino hide armour, boots of haste, potion of (greater)magic fang and a potion of strong jaw or have your friendly ranger buff you with it. the damage increases from this thing are retarded with this many natural attacks and with alchemical allocation its a one time cost.
All in all, you could have 8 natural attacks, insane bonuses on each one, 2 attacking twice, and pounce all before level 14, possibly as early as level 12.
Nar will eat your soul!
Fear the rat! The rat is hungary! Save me!!!
Ya that is a good way to get large bonuses, its main drawbacks are that it needs to build up, and dosent transfer to other creatures.
Also, since each natural attack is it's own "weapon", they will increase bonus seperately depending on how how many times you hit with, say, the bite attack specifically.
prototype00
Ya that is a good way to get large bonuses, its main drawbacks are that it needs to build up, and dosent transfer to other creatures.Also, since each natural attack is it's own "weapon", they will increase bonus seperately depending on how how many times you hit with, say, the bite attack specifically.
prototype00
Really? I guess its a wording issue, but I read it as it gives the same bonuses to all attacks. Heres my thinking.
I figured that the fury born was a part of the AOMF, and not specifically tied to each natural attack. It was one enchantment tied to multiple attacks. As such, say you have 2 nat attacks and just fury-born AOMF, your bonus to both is +0. You hit with lefty, and your bonus for both attacks is +1 (after the hit), you now hit with righty and your bonus is +2 for both attacks. Next turn, your lefty swings at +2, hits and your bonus is now +3. ect.If this is not the way it works, and instead it counts as a 'separate' enchantment for each attack then, as per my demonstration above, it would go as follows:
your bonus to both attacks is +0, you hit with lefty and your bonus for lefty is +1, you now hit with righty at +0 and your bonus for righty is now +1. Turn 2, you hit with lefty at +1, it is now +2, you then swing with righty and miss. its bonus stays at +1. Turn 3 you hit with lefty at +2 and it now becomes a +3, you hit with righty at +1 and it now becomes +2.
Option 2 seems alot more convoluted and requires alot more paperwork just to attack something with, say 4 separate attacks. having two identical weapons have to be tracked separately also seems to go against two weapon fighting (intent at least). bonuses like defending, dueling, guardian, menacing and spell storing become insanely powerful with multiple natural attacks.
A character with 4 natural attacks and a AOMF (defending, +1 or greater magic fang cast) can have +4 ac (one for each attack, they stack).
Same character with AOMF (guardian, +1) gains +4(!) to all saving throws.
Same character with AOMF (menacing) grants all alies that are flanking something with you +10 to hit.
At higher levels, this character (with say 7 natural attacks) could literally gain something stupid like +28 to ac, +28 to all saves(!?!), grant all allies a flanking bonus of +16 or grant a +4 bonus to the weapons of up to 7 other characters (allying AOMF).
Option 1 keeps the amulet toned down signifitaly while allowing an interesting synergy with Fury-born that still has its limitations. Please tell me option 1 is correct not option 2, or I might have to look real hard at what Option 2 could grant unarmed fighters and nat fighters.
(can you imagine 7 bestow curses applied to your first 7 attacks? Easily wandable and works with spell storing)