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Being able to spend a feat taking Ironhide - instead of Dodge? - if you're one of three races, or using an alternate racial trait for one of three less common races, or being a specific uncommon race, does not make characters with an intrinsic natural armor bonus 'typical'. And even if it was fairly common to find characters with simple natural armor bonuses, an Archetype isn't "bad" because there are some choices with some races that aren't ideal for it.
I don't think Savage Barbarian is the best Archetype out there, but it has a niche; having some Monk is the obvious move. It's probably worth noting that it stacks with Savage Technologist or Urban Barbarian.
To each their own, I suppose.
Uncommon is kinda a loose term for player parties. Adventurers are already uncommon, in most settings and they tend to include rather essentric characters from essentric backgrounds. And, for the record, a Human could take it via the Racial Heritage feat. Plus a Sorcerer with Orc Bloodline could also take that feat. And you could certainly take both Dodge and Ironhide, don't have to restrict yourself to a single feat selection.
Anyway, I think the archetypes that account for the racial options, even if not very impressive archetypes, are well written. This archetype doesn't seem designed very well, which is why I refered to it as bad. You could still find a way to make it broken, probably, but that wouldn't change my opinion of the archetype itself.
For example, I love it when a class archetype gains something like Darkvision, and it includes a note where if you already have darkvision, you just get increased range with it, instead of being at a loss for whatever the archetype replaced for darkvision.
I feel like "This archetype is bad" was a much more pressing issue in December of 2010 than it is now. A reasonable assumption when Archetypes were brand new is that they should be balanced against each other, and IIRC the APG introduced the whole concept of Archetypes. Now, after six years we've seen a whole lot of archetypes that are vastly weaker or stronger than other archetypes, and it's generally not a problem.
Savage Barbarian simply fails to change the basic fact of the game that unless you have class features that turn off when you wear armor, you're better off wearing armor than not.
Savage Barbarian simply fails to change the basic fact of the game that unless you have class features that turn off when you wear armor, you're better off wearing armor than not.
So... go collect some (more) class features that turn on off when you wear armor?
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Wait so your saying the archetype is balanced while multicasting with monk? Or even as a caster? Or as an urban savage? That makes no sense thematically or functionally. So you are a savage warrior that was disciplined in the monk arts? Or a savage that grew up in the streets of Harlem? Or a primitive savage that likes to read?
Even if you somehow had a background that fur all that, all the bonuses you get are late in the archetype. In other words it didn't make sense to multi class, or they dying want you to multi class with it.
Yeah, the biggest nail in the coffin for this archetype is low-level play. Your natural armor bonus doesn't increase until 7 and you're expected to not wear armor. Not... Not fun.
Sure, its bonuses might add up alright once you reach level 17 or 19 or so, but most players are going to experience far lower levels of play than that before retiring their character.
I can't imagine myself playing this archetype.
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Yeah, the biggest nail in the coffin for this archetype is low-level play. Your natural armor bonus doesn't increase until 7 and you're expected to not wear armor. Not... Not fun.
Sure, its bonuses might add up alright once you reach level 17 or 19 or so, but most players are going to experience far lower levels of play than that before retiring their character.
I can't imagine myself playing this archetype.
The real nail in the coffin, so to speak, is what you give up. Class loses Trap sense (bonus AC and reflex against traps) and the barbarian DR - these are both defensive abilties. So your barbarian isn't gaining defense, their trading one defense for another, while losing the ability to wear the armor you were trained in.
I do agree, otherwise, class is very poorly designed for low level play. Though a lot of the early archetypes are poorly designed for low level play. I wish they'd update the materials, rather than just eratta and FAQ them.
So for a houserule fix, I'd give the player Dodge and Toughness at 1st level in exchange for the Light and Medium armor proficency. Doesn't really fix the class, as it's more substitute for an actual solution, but would help lower level characters survive a bit longer and maybe last long enough to see the class actually become good.
On the other hand "Barbarian who eschews armor for cultural reasons" being not an especially strong combatant does fairly appropriately model what you would expect to be realistic. The warriors of a tribe that lack technology will generally not be as effective as warriors from a culture with all sorts of martial technology. If an isolated tribe had the best warriors around, they might not stay so isolated.
There are some archetypes that are really just for NPCs (like the Celebrity Bard) and while if I had a player who wanted to play a Barbarian from a remote tribe, I would steer them away from the Savage Barbarian archetype, if the party was going to encounter a remote tribe I might use the Savage Barbarian archetype to stat up the tribal champion or whatever.
Any simple way to get Mage Armor makes this Archetype competitive at lower levels. If it handed out major AC at lower levels (like amounts equal to a light armor), then Mage Armor would make it arguably unbalanced.
@Yure: if you can't create an interesting backstory for a Savage Barbarian with a dip in Monk - including potentially using Martial Artist or Sacred Fist, or Enlightened Warrior - you're either not trying or have no imagination. You're also obviously more beholden to 'suggested fluff' than I would be.
Saying this Archetype sucks because you can't just make a standard Barbarian with it - well, unless you grab an easy magic buff - seems a bit of a shallow complaint to me. I just assume that Archetypes which aren't ideal for generic versions of a class character aren't meant for making one.
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On the other hand "Barbarian who eschews armor for cultural reasons" being not an especially strong combatant does fairly appropriately model what you would expect to be realistic. The warriors of a tribe that lack technology will generally not be as effective as warriors from a culture with all sorts of martial technology. If an isolated tribe had the best warriors around, they might not stay so isolated.
There are some archetypes that are really just for NPCs (like the Celebrity Bard) and while if I had a player who wanted to play a Barbarian from a remote tribe, I would steer them away from the Savage Barbarian archetype, if the party was going to encounter a remote tribe I might use the Savage Barbarian archetype to stat up the tribal champion or whatever.
That's a fair point. It would make a decent NPC archetype.
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I feel like "This archetype is bad" was a much more pressing issue in December of 2010 than it is now. A reasonable assumption when Archetypes were brand new is that they should be balanced against each other, and IIRC the APG introduced the whole concept of Archetypes. Now, after six years we've seen a whole lot of archetypes that are vastly weaker or stronger than other archetypes, and it's generally not a problem
I'm having trouble buying the idea that somehow having lots of bad archetypes collectively makes them all okay.
On the other hand "Barbarian who eschews armor for cultural reasons" being not an especially strong combatant does fairly appropriately model what you would expect to be realistic.
Realism is always a poor argument when it comes to Pathfinder (and if we want to talk about that how about the oddness of being 'naturally tough' making you worse at resisting damage?)
Moreover, it's not that the archetype is just bad. It's that it has very wonky scaling. At level 19 your skin is as tough as scale mail(what was that about realistic again?) with none of the downsides and a pretty decent dodge bonus on top of it.
But prior to level 3 the archetype has no support for its own concept and from 3-10 it does so very poorly. Neither of which issue are really solved by your theory here (in fact it makes them pretty bad for NPCs since it messes with baseline assumptions about monster stats).
Any simple way to get Mage Armor makes this Archetype competitive at lower levels. If it handed out major AC at lower levels (like amounts equal to a light armor), then Mage Armor would make it arguably unbalanced.
Unless it gave an armor bonus.
Any simple way to get Mage Armor makes this Archetype competitive at lower levels. If it handed out major AC at lower levels (like amounts equal to a light armor), then Mage Armor would make it arguably unbalanced.Unless it gave an armor bonus.
True, but granting an actual armor bonus to a creature without armor is conceptually rather bizarre, and it runs afoul of the Bracers = Enhancement situation. An actual armor bonus would have to scale with typical armor + enhancement, and then it would be potentially unbalanced because it gave free 'enhancement'.
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if you can't create an interesting backstory for a Savage Barbarian with a dip in Monk - including potentially using Martial Artist or Sacred Fist, or Enlightened Warrior - you're either not trying or have no imagination. You're also obviously more beholden to 'suggested fluff' than I would be.
Saying this Archetype sucks because you can't just make a standard Barbarian with it - well, unless you grab an easy magic buff - seems a bit of a shallow complaint to me. I just assume that Archetypes which aren't ideal for generic versions of a class character aren't meant for making one.
Try it. Show me your multi-class Savage Barbarian and show me how you can use this archetype to be better, even if only in a very niche capacity. I think if you try it, you'll see the issues. And again, I'm not saying it sucks, I'm saying it's poorly written and that's why I think it's a bad archetype.
I can see running this class if the GM forced your players to make Gesalt characters, but I don't think the bonuses on this class archetype progress quickly enough to justify the archetype as a multi-class option.
Plus you end up being very MAD if you splash monk. You'd want DEX for defense, STR for attack and damage, CON for rage, WIS for more defense. That's either a lot of items to wear or a lot of buffs to have on to make it worth it - IF it's worth it afterwards.
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My "issue" is that it's natural armor doesn't work with beast totems natural armor, and beast totem's is higher. So if you pick this archetype you either don't go for pounce, or are trading your DR for nothing. So that means you're trading your armor for a small scaling dodge AC.
Plus you end up being very MAD if you splash monk. You'd want DEX for defense, STR for attack and damage, CON for rage, WIS for more defense. That's either a lot of items to wear or a lot of buffs to have on to make it worth it - IF it's worth it afterwards.
It's really not that much more MAD, considering that WIS is already important for Will saves. Roll up a Dual Talent Human with stacked WIS and scratch Iron Will. Also, +STR/+WIS from items is dirt cheap compared to what +STR/+DEX would cost.
Except that you still need to get that DEX buffed, otherwise your AC is essentially right where you began. Assuming 15 point buy (Standard Fantasy), you can get a 15, 14, 14, 12, 10, and 7 before racial modifiers. If you do go Dual-Talent human (at that point why not just go Dwarf for Con/Wis and tons of awesome racials?) and want to focus on STR and WIS, you can get...
STR 17
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 16
CHA 7
Which means that with your 1 level dip into Monk, you get a whopping +3 AC from WIS. So I guess, wearing no armor at level 4 (1 level monk 3 level savage), you could have before magic items...
10+2(shield)+1(dex)+3(wis)+2(dodge from class and the dodge feat)=18 AC. That's with a heavy shield, mind. If you want to two-hand, it's actually 16 AC.
And you lose AC when raging, so 16-14 AC when raging.
Why aren't you wearing armor again? Or taking Savage Technologist?
I suppose you might have 2 more AC with magic items, or +4 more with potions of mage armor / a mage buddy around. That's more acceptable.
if you use a shield your monk stuff turns off, so that's a no go.
if you use a shield your monk stuff turns off, so that's a no go.
Good catch. So, with mage armor and +2 extra AC from items of SOME kind (deflection +1 ring, natural armor amulet +1?), you have...
20 AC at level 4.
You could use the Unhindering Shield feat to keep your monk stuff active. Doesn't make Savage Barbarian good(why doesn't it stack with superstitious barbarian? The two archetypes make sense together but can't stack).
Which means that with your 1 level dip into Monk, you get a whopping +3 AC from WIS. So I guess, wearing no armor at level 4 (1 level monk 3 level savage), you could have before magic items...it's actually 16 AC.
And you lose AC when raging, so 16-14 AC when raging.
Why aren't you wearing armor again? Or taking Savage Technologist?
I suppose you might have 2 more AC with magic items, or +4 more with potions of mage armor / a mage buddy around. That's more acceptable.
As was mentioned above, nothing is stopping you from going Savage Technologist Savage Barbarian, other than maybe wanting to keep the CON.
Maybe you're not wearing armor because that Monk dip also means Flurry of Blows, while you have a comparable AC to a typical Barbarian (or substantially more with Mage Armor)? I mean seriously... Monk dip, unarmored... flurry is sitting there granting two attacks instead of one?
Try it. Show me your multi-class Savage Barbarian and show me how you can use this archetype to be better, even if only in a very niche capacity.
Sure.
Unchained Monk 1/ Savage Barbarian 10
Dual Talent Human: 16/18STR, 12DEX, 15CON, 10INT, 14/16WIS, 7CHA
Traits: Adopted-> Enlightened Warrior / Auspicious Tattoo
*Instead of Enlightened Warrior, you can also just start with a level of Monk who told their abbot to go $^#&#$*#$ his monastic rule, and left the temple, becoming neutral. Or you can be an elite tribal warrior raised under a strict training regimen in youth, before the rite-of-passage where he graduates from lawful discipline and is sent out to become an elite raging menace. Or... any other interesting narrative that can be imagined. The advantage to Enlightened Warrior though is that more Monk levels are possible, including Monk 3 granting bonus Ki attacks and +2AC with a Monk's Robe.*
1SB. Power Attack
2UM. (+Improved Unarmed Strike) / (+Stunning Fist) / +M: Dodge
3SB. Crane Style / *Superstitious
4SB.
5SB. Crane Wing / *Witch-Hunter
6SB.
7SB. Raging Vitality / *Spell Sunder
8SB.
9SB. Crane Riposte / *Strength Surge
10SB.
11SB. Improved Critical: Temple Sword / *Roused Anger
+2 Furious Temple Sword, Belt of Strength +4, Snakeskin Tunic, Headband of Wisdom +4, Amulet of Natural Armor +2, Ring of Protection +2, Cloak of Resistance +2.
At 11, AC is: 10, +4 Mage Armor, +5WIS, +2DEX, +2 Deflect, +2 Natural, +1 Dodge, ***+4 Savage bonuses***; -2 Rage, +8 Crane = 36. The "High Attack" for a CR11 monster is 19. Without Savage Barbarian, his AC would be 32, meaning he would be twice as likely (40% instead of 20%) to take a main-line hit from a typical CR11 melee monster.
Keeping the -2AC/+4CON when raging means averaged HP are at least 130 when raging; though Savage Technologist or Urban Barbarian would make for even crazier AC at a loss of a chunk of HP.
Being unarmored means a bonus two-handed flurry strike on every full attack, before defending with a grip-switch.
Flurry gets better as your Base Attack Bonus from Barbarian goes up as well. It's like a free little extra attack at 20th level. Not much, but hey, it's there.
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@Bad Bird: Hmm...Well, haven't really made any monks, so hard to judge. But I'll try to understand this one. Definitely looks like a "twink" build, which I stay away from, but it's certainly interesting to read.
For critique, looks like you have two race traits selected. Adopted doesn't change either trait into a non-race trait. You just burn your social trait in addition to the race trait selected. Could probably get the +1 will elsewhere, so not a big deal.
Anyway, looks fine at 11th, but doesn't really address the issues with the class. How are you getting to 11th level with this character? I'm only seeing a 12 dex (14 once you get the snakeskin tunic)...
I'm seeing 11 AC at first level (So are you just armored here?). Then 2nd level is monk, where you have 15 AC (adds dodge and Wis to AC). 3rd level adds crane style, for +3 AC when fighting defensively (unclear, but I don't think you can use flurry AND fight defensively, perhaps it doesn't matter for your build).
With 10 levels invested, you are only getting +2 Dodge to AC from this archetype and +2 Natural armor.
Wouldn't you be better off using a shield instead of taking monk levels? SB can use a shield without wearing armor and still retain the dodge bonuses. Especially for early levels with low base dex, I would have take tower shield proficency instead of planning to fight defensively. Your monk bonus is only adding +5 AC and it doesn't seem like you have a shield bonus from elsewhere.
I will note that at 11th, you should have two ability score increases just due to leveling up. Doesn't seem like you've spent those.
Flurry gets better as your Base Attack Bonus from Barbarian goes up as well. It's like a free little extra attack at 20th level. Not much, but hey, it's there.
A free, extra, full-BAB no-strings-attached (other than unarmored) attack is 'not much'? It's like a bonus Haste attack for a two-hander that stacks with Haste, and you get it from the moment you take that Monk level. How on earth is that 'little'?
@Bad Bird: Hmm...Well, haven't really made any monks, so hard to judge. But I'll try to understand this one. Definitely looks like a "twink" build, which I stay away from, but it's certainly interesting to read.
"twink"?
For critique, looks like you have two race traits selected. Adopted doesn't change either trait into a non-race trait. You just burn your social trait in addition to the race trait selected. Could probably get the +1 will elsewhere, so not a big deal.
True on both counts; two race traits won't work, and doesn't really matter.
Anyway, looks fine at 11th, but doesn't really address the issues with the class. How are you getting to 11th level with this character? I'm only seeing a 12 dex (14 once you get the snakeskin tunic)...
I'm seeing 11 AC at first level (So are you just armored here?). Then 2nd level is monk, where you have 15 AC (adds dodge and Wis to AC). 3rd level adds crane style, for +3 AC when fighting defensively (unclear, but I don't think you can use flurry AND fight defensively, perhaps it doesn't matter for your build).
First level you can just use armor, because you still have proficiency.
Also... What? How is using Flurry and fighting defensively not compatible? What are you smoking? Crane Style doesn't work for Monks using flurry?
With 10 levels invested, you are only getting +2 Dodge to AC from this archetype and +2 Natural armor.
Yeah, the archetype grants a total of +4AC from natural armor and from Dodge. Add the feat Dodge (dodge bonuses stack) and an Amulet of Natural Armor (enhancement to natural armor stacks).
Wouldn't you be better off using a shield instead of taking monk levels? SB can use a shield without wearing armor and still retain the dodge bonuses. Especially for early levels with low base dex, I would have take tower shield proficency instead of planning to fight defensively. Your monk bonus is only adding +5 AC and it doesn't seem like you have a shield bonus from elsewhere.
Unchained Monk Flurry grants full two-handed STR bonus for two attacks on a full attack. Wearing a shield would wreck that. A tower shield doesn't allow two-handing.
I will note that at 11th, you should have two ability score increases just due to leveling up. Doesn't seem like you've spent those.
Plowed into STR like with any other Barbarian.
@Bad Bird: Hmm...Well, haven't really made any monks, so hard to judge.
If you don't really get how Monks work, fair enough, but...
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"twink"?
Twink is a term I acquired from playing world of warcraft (haven't played in a while, not sure if they still use that term). It's not really an insult, just references a very optimized character. Twinks are fun if everyone is building twink characters, but they really aren't fun to play with if most players are using more casual builds. Casual players tend to avoid twink builds and dislike twink characters that others bring.
As for flurry with defensive fighting, I could certainly be wrong. As I read the Unchained Monk's flurry, you have to flurry as a Full round action in order to gain the bonus attack. If you are making a flurry as your full round action, you can't also opt to fight defensively as a full round or stand action, since your action is already taken using flurry as a full round action.
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in wow twinks are only highly optimized for their level bracket usually level 19 and are build for the sole purpose of dominating low level pvp against less geared opponents and they never level up so "making a twink" in pathfinder would be like making a character that is superoptimized but stays at level 2 sure hes great at fighting other level 2 characters but every one else will horably out scale them later on
Yes that is it, but I was trying to avoid getting too into a WoW explaination. Level brackets and levels caps aren't really a mechanic in pathfinder, so it's kinda hard to apply that to this game.
Though Bad Bird's example character seems fair to describe as a twink, since it was designed to be a level 11 character, not one he leveled up (as far as I know).
Though Bad Bird's example character seems fair to describe as a twink, since it was designed to be a level 11 character, not one he leveled up (as far as I know).
Ignorance is bliss?
Level 1: armored.
Level 2: +4AC from WIS and Dodge. +4AC whenever Mage Armor becomes possible through any means, including 50gp potions that last an hour. Total "Armor": +8AC. Makes an extra attack on a full-attack from now on.
Level 3: +4AC from WIS and Dodge. +4AC from Crane Style and 3 ranks of Acrobatics. +4AC with Mage Armor. Total "Armor": +12AC
Level 4: +5AC from WIS, Dodge and Savage Barbarian bonus to dodge. +4 from Crane Style and 3 ranks of Acrobatics. +4AC with Mage Armor. Total "Armor": 13AC
Level 5: +5AC from WIS, Dodge, and Savage Barbarian bonus to dodge. +4AC from Crane Style and 3 ranks of Acrobatics, +4AC from Crane Wing unless taking a close hit. +4AC with Mage Armor. Total "Armor": 17AC
...
Level 8: +7AC from WIS (+2item), Dodge, and Savage Barbarian bonus to dodge and natural armor, +4AC from Crane Style and 3 ranks of Acrobatics, +4AC from Crane Wing unless taking a close hit. +4AC with Mage Armor. Total "Armor": 19AC.
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Level 10: +8AC from WIS (+2item), Dodge, and Savage Barbarian bonus to dodge and natural armor. +4AC from Crane Style and 3 ranks of Acrobatics, +4AC from Crane Wing unless taking a close hit. +4AC with Mage Armor. Total "Armor": 20AC.
Level 11: +10AC from WIS (+4item), Dodge, and Savage Barbarian bonus to dodge and natural armor. +4AC from Crane Style and 3 ranks of Acrobatics, +4AC from Crane Wing unless taking a close hit. +4AC with Mage Armor. Total "Armor": 22AC.
These "Armor" numbers represent only what the character gets from being unarmored and from using the Crane Style chain. Savage Barbarian provides a gradually scaling bonus that pushes overall AC from high to very high.
Now you know. Knowledge is Power!
Flurry gets better as your Base Attack Bonus from Barbarian goes up as well. It's like a free little extra attack at 20th level. Not much, but hey, it's there.A free, extra, full-BAB no-strings-attached (other than unarmored) attack is 'not much'? It's like a bonus Haste attack for a two-hander that stacks with Haste, and you get it from the moment you take that Monk level. How on earth is that 'little'?
You still take a -2 penalty to the attack rolls on every attack. Assuming Core monk, not Unchained.
You still take a -2 penalty to the attack rolls on every attack. Assuming Core monk, not Unchained.Flurry gets better as your Base Attack Bonus from Barbarian goes up as well. It's like a free little extra attack at 20th level. Not much, but hey, it's there.A free, extra, full-BAB no-strings-attached (other than unarmored) attack is 'not much'? It's like a bonus Haste attack for a two-hander that stacks with Haste, and you get it from the moment you take that Monk level. How on earth is that 'little'?
Why would you assume core?
Plus he's clarified it was Unchained.So it really is "a free, extra, full-BAB no-strings-attached (other than unarmored) attack"
I really wish that this savage barbarian was more like a monk.
* Add your Con bonus to your armor bonus for AC, so long as you aren't wearing any armor. Replaces trap sense and whatnot. Keep damage reduction because that's what you are all about.
There. Done. Easy. At lvl 1, a dwarf savage barbarian has Str16 Dex14 Con18 Int10 Wis11 Cha5. He now has AC16. When he rages he gets +4 Con and -2 AC, so it evens out.
He's unarmored and still has decent AC. Just like a first level monk. He can then get his bracers of armor, amulet of natural armor and ring of protection. Drink a potion of shield for an extra armor boost, just like a monk would.
Monk gets more bonuses to AC, Savage Barbarian gets DR. And yeah, I'd play the hell out of this guy. Just take "bruising intellect" as a feat so your intimidate isn't garbage, and walk into battle with an orange mowhawk and beard.
I could see an ability/ac thing, but not with an ability score so easy to stack like mad on a Barbarian. Stacked CON plus enhancement plus Rage plus Raging Vitality would quickly start to be like having free heavy armor without any encumbrance or proficiency issues, with every addition to CON also stacking HP. On an ability/AC Barbarian, I would probably go charisma with it.
I could see an ability/ac thing, but not with an ability score so easy to stack like mad on a Barbarian. Stacked CON plus enhancement plus Rage plus Raging Vitality would quickly start to be like having free heavy armor without any encumbrance or proficiency issues, with every addition to CON also stacking HP. On an ability/AC Barbarian, I would probably go charisma with it.charisma would make literally no sence as it has nothing to do with barbarian and its often the lowest stat on a barbarian a stat to ac would either be str or con those are the only two that would work
STR and CON are the only stats that would 'work'... because they're what people already optimize Barbarians around? The fact that Barbarians have enormously stacked STR and CON are why they're instantly a balance problem for a powerful ability.
con 16 vs wis 16 = equal
rage +2 and -2 = equal
raging vitality +1 monk lv4 +1 = equal
con belt vs wis headband
belt means no str or is combined with str, more expensive than wis headband
lv11 barb +1 monk lv8+1 lv12+2 over 4
lv 20 barb +1 monk +2 over 12
barb total AC is 9
monk total AC is 11
monk has barkskin qi power, proposed barb doesn't trade dr for natural armor.
plus since this con bonus is as an armor bonus to AC you can't get mage armor like the monk can.
how can you say that the barbs would be too OP, while the monk's which is better scaling and exists, it just fine?
You want to give the character with the d12 die and the 22+ rage-CON whose whole theme is "I wear lighter protection and drop my defenses to rage because I can take the punishment!" a competitive AC footing... with the d8/d10 types who need to stock a mental stat for AC? As in, 'the Barbarian needs to be more competitive with the Monk in not dying'? This is on a character who can optionally grab 1+1/4levels bonus AC with a Rage Power that stacks with enhancement to natural armor, no less. Well whatever; first balance within class.
The PFS system almost never hands out actual armor armor bonuses through abilities because it totally screws with the whole wealth/enhancement expected scaling progression. The Oracle armor Revelations do grant actual armor, but those are essentially conjured or magical armor effects that are very conspicuously scaled along typical armor-buy lines (and being free, they're always a little on the weak side).
For any kind of 'tough skin' theme I would stick with natural armor (or just dodge if necessary); I assumed that's what was being discussed, since granting actual 'armor' is a bit strange. You can always just write it in as stacking natural armor (like Dragon Disciple). Otherwise, how do you scale CON = armor in a way that balances with normal armor enhancement progression?
Either way, at low levels a typical Barbarian will have around 4-6AC from armor, depending on whether their armor encumbers them; it will gradually rise at a cost. A Barbarian with CON = AC can easily stack-up 16-18CON to start, plus Rage, plus Raging Vitality, for 22-24CON = 6-7AC. So their armor is as good or better than a typical Barbarian, for free, without encumbrance. At the cost of Trap Sense. Any CON enhancement from any source will grant them both more hp and more AC, while a typical Barbarian has to source those benefits separately. I guess if it's a strange actual armor armor bonus then it kind of balances in the middle levels (except that it's still totally free, totally unencumbering, and can't be lost/sundered).
If I was going to re-write Savage Barbarian, I'd do something like:
Naked Courage:
The savage barbarian may reduce any armor class penalties from Rage, including from Rage Powers, by an amount equal to his Wisdom or Charisma modifier (whichever is greater). This ability only functions when the Savage Barbarian is wearing no armor (shields are allowed).
This ability replaces Trap Sense.
Natural Toughness:
At level 5, and every three levels after, a savage barbarian gains an inherent increase of 1 to their existing natural armor. These bonuses stack with existing natural armor bonuses. The savage barbarian loses this bonus when wearing armor (shields are allowed).
This ability replaces Improved Uncanny Dodge.
..... urban barbarians get that and can still wear armor
..... and they get no CON bonus or save bonus or fast movement or medium armor proficiency to wear more than 4AC or further armor bonuses or further ability to negate things like Reckless Abandon, and they can't snack a Mage Armor potion or zap a wand for +4 armor AC.
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The flavor of the class does not fit the mechanics when it comes to the barbarian, even more so when you start talking about the savage barbarian. Unless you're talking about a specific hyper optimized DR build, barbarians aren't inherently 'so tough they can take the punishment'. The +4 constitution does not match the downsides of rage (the -2 armor class in this case). You're talking about being hit 10% more often in exchange for 14 extra hit points at level 7 when the savage barbarian 'comes online'. That 14 hit points means nothing against the ~30 damage per round a CR 8 monster is doing according to Pathfinder monster design guidelines.
even if the barbarian got con to ac in the same way monk got wis to ac it still wouldnt be op infact it would still be a little sub optimal
Am... I being trolled? If a Barbarian got to add CON to AC in the same way a Monk adds WIS to AC, they could easily take Raging Vitality at level 1 and have the same AC as a breastplate.
It's basic math; 16+4+2 = 22CON = +6AC = breastplate, only no ACP or movement penalty. Breastplate +3 = 9,000gp; Bracers of Armor +3 = 9,000gp. It's another 4,000gp for a mithral breastplate if they don't want to move slower.
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It's basic math; 16+4+2 = 22CON = +6AC = breastplate
You forgot the -2 to AC from rage. So I guess not so basic.
You forgot the -2 to AC from rage. So I guess not so basic.
It's basic math; 16+4+2 = 22CON = +6AC = breastplate
...It's a comparison of the relative AC bonus of two raging Barbarians, so obviously, whether or not they're taking a -2 from Rage doesn't change their relative strength of AC. I didn't count any of the other possible AC altering things either, because, again, obviously, it doesn't affect the relative comparison. I really am just being trolled here...
If we were to be rewriting a stupid designed bad archetype, I'd say forget the stat conversions and wonky levels and simply make it like the invulnerable archetype.
"When not wearing armor increase your natural armor bonus by half your barbarian level. (Minimum 1, shields allowed. Increase means it stacks with racial natural armor.)"
Now it's not randomly deleting racial bonuses, it's not a dip for stats class, and it doesn't have a 'scary' spike of AC at level 1 but steadily builds up. You could keep the crappy dodge/fear save bonus at level 3 and it still probably isn't half as good as invulnerable, but maybe you could actually build something around it?
My issue with that is that you won't be playing an unarmored barbarian for a long time. Dex 14 with a chain shirt is AC16.
Dex 14 unarmored doesn't reach AC16 until Lvl 8...That is your Lvl 8 barbarian having the same AC as a Lvl 1 barbarian.
Sure, at Lvl 20 it's like having a +4 mithril breastplate...but I tend to want my archetypes coming online within the first 3-4 levels.