Owner - D20 Hobbies
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It seems this topic got overlooked in the last FAQ
To date, every Overrun thread I've seen is either flagged as "Answered in FAQ", "Question unclear", "No Reply Required" or ignored.
Here is my most recent thread on overrun:
linky
I was going to write a long post explaining things again, but given James linked his post i like to think i did a good job explaining t there.
I'm gonna bump this thread again as it still hasn't been answered
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Was this faq ever answered?
I doubt it. I'd wager the most number of threads with FAQ clicked about a subject is Overrun. And none of them have been answered ever.
I think they may be afraid that any definitive answer would be perceived as "errata not FAQ" and cause a thread storm.
I don't know, I'm beginning to be quite pessimistic as to whether this question will ever be answered, since the amount of people actually using overrunning charges is quite small.
I don't know, I'm beginning to be quite pessimistic as to whether this question will ever be answered, since the amount of people actually using overrunning charges is quite small.
And sadly, the reason is BECAUSE the rules are unclear and DM ruling so varied, the concept remains mostly unused.
Overrun
As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square. If your overrun attempt fails, you stop in the space directly in front of the opponent, or the nearest open space in front of the creature if there are other creatures occupying that space.
I analysed this issue in another thread. Here's a summary of my findings:
...
B) You can Overrun the primary target of your charge, but the Overrun happens in the middle of the Charge and you can continue moving. You are, of course, limited to normal Charge restrictions and bonuses; no difficult terrain and you must Charge in a straight line, but you get +2 on the Overrun.
OR, the overrun occurs AFTER the charge portion is resolved. Combining overrun with charge means you HAVE to resolve the overrun after the charge, because you have the enter a square of the target if you succeed, or stop adjacent if you fail. You can't resolve the charge after the overrun, because you won't be in the right spot for either action.
This also means you can charge with a reach weapon and also overrun, because you first resolve the charge attack, then continue movement until you reach the target, then do the overrun check.
Charge takes a full-round action. Overrun takes a Standard action. You can't Overrun as a Standard action after making a full Charge including the Melee attack.
You are skipping the unbolded part of my quote. The rules explicitly let you make an overrun action as PART of the the charge, meaning it goes from being a standard action to an untyped (effectively free) action. Bull rush explicitly states it replaces the attack of the charge, but overrun does not.
The goal of overrun is to move through the target's square. The goal of charge is to attack the target. They are not mutually exclusive, unless you are trying to charge AFTER you overrun. Most of these discussions assume "as part of" portion of overrun means you have to resolve the overrun before the charge, and I maintain this is an incorrect reading of the rules. By reversing the resolution, the combination does not require any further clarification.
Resolve the charge attack, then the overrun attack, and finish your move portion of overrun. RAW, you could probably change the direction you are moving post-overrun as well.
please look at the thread jason risner linked earlier i explained how charge works with over run and why you cannot charge over run and attack someone.
the short answer is charge has reztrictions on what is a viable target you cannot charge with obstackesin the way unless exceptions Re made.
for the more comrehensive snswer read the thread he linked.
please look at the thread jason risner linked earlier i explained how charge works with over run and why you cannot charge over run and attack someone.
the short answer is charge has reztrictions on what is a viable target you cannot charge with obstackesin the way unless exceptions Re made.for the more comrehensive snswer read the thread he linked.
I have looked at the thread, and I fail to see how you draw your conclusion. The Charge Through feat provides the exception needed to bypass the restriction of the charge action for having a clear path.
But that isn't the specific aspect of this discussion that I was focused on. Even without Charge Through, you can combine Charge + Overrun because the rules say you can. So, if there are multiple interpretations of the rules, and one interpretation leads to one or more contradictions, then that interpretation is most likely invalid. My interpretation does not invalidate any rules (feel free to point out any I am missing, because I already addressed the one you mentioned above).
P . . T . . O
If P wants to Charge+Overrun T to get to square O, the charge restrictions only apply to the line between P and T. Once you arrive at T, you finish the charge maneuver and proceed with the overrun maneuver (which means moving through T's space if successful).
I know this thread is quite old now, but I still haven't seen any FAQ on the matter, but while looking through various Barbarian Rage Powers today I came across this little power that pretty much resolved the argument, at least for myself.
From the Advanced Players Guide:
Overbearing Advance: While raging, the barbarian inflicts damage equal to her Strength bonus whenever she succeeds at an overrun combat maneuver.
Nothing about additional strength damage while attacking, or any other convoluted shenanigans. Just a flat damage value equal to Strength. This tells me that there is no attack at the end of an overrun and the only way to deal real damage at the end is through power, feats, etc...
Just my two cents but I definitely understand the confusion. After all, that's what drew me to this thread post in the first place.
Overrun is just that, running over someone. So yeah, no attack. The exception to this, in my interpretation, is with the Charge Through feat. I see that as allowing an overrun mid-charge.
........Straight Line........
PC -------> NPC -----> NPC
Charge - Overrun - Attack
If you had that overbearing advance, you'd do STR Mod damage to the guy in the middle when raging.
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Having made a successful overrun build, the basic maneuver seems simple enough to me. It's a tactical action for maneuvering through enemies to place yourself near ones you want. Other maneuvers do this, too, but differently. Overrun is actually much more forgiving on where you can possibly end up, the others have a lot of restrictions (be adjacent tothe target of the Maneuver, move only in a straight line, etc).
One of the perks of overrun is that if you do it well you get to knock the target prone.
When you add the charge through feat, you can now effectively overrun any target in the path between you and the original target of your overrun/charge.
If you have the rage power, you deal Str damage to any of the targets you overrun that round (up to 2).
If you have greater overrun you get an aoo for knocking any target prone with overrun (up to two).
Best case scenario here is that if you have two targets spaced 10' apart and one is directly behind the other, you can charge 10 feet overrunning the first guy, beat his cmd by 5, knock him prone, take an aoo, and then deal your Str modifier in damage. After this, you continue to the next target and overrun them, beat their cmd by 5, knocking them prone, dealing Str mod in damage, taking an all, and stopping in the square behind them and wait to see if they bother to get up and suffer another aoo, or if they try and fight for on prone (my enemies have done exactly this).
Another thing I would add is that it matters greatly if you do this on horseback or not.
All rules thusfar are for unmounted characters and if mounted different actions will happen.
Basically the horse could overrun an opponent as a standard action or as part of a charge. But the rider would need ride-by-attack in order to make an attack himself.
And don't forget that the target (unless the attacker has improved overrun) and neighbours all get an AoO against the charger/overrunner and they could have readied an action to brace vs. charge as well.
We off course want a mount that has improved overrun and a rider that has trample (mounted combat as prereq.)
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Hey there everyone,
This problem has been brought to our attention and we will look into it as soon as we are able. This may take a bit as we are neck deep in our current round of deadlines.
Hang in there, we will look into it.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Ummm.... Can we get an answer on this? Please?
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ok it seems like no1 ever reads the rules... so ill try and make this simple.
1: and 1st of all : combat manuevers ARE ATTACKS!!!!!. (this should make everything clear and if you get this you understand all the rest, but lets explain to the rest of the peple who r still confused)
this is under preforming combat manuver:
"When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll."
basicly this mean that when ever you preform one you are attacking,and that rcombat manuver are a speacial kind of attack, this is to say if you are invisible or the target has an effet that turns off if attacked this trigger such effect. or end the invisability.
some combat manuvers ,that don't include movment ,are such simple attacks you cna use them in place of normal attacks, as in aoo, full round or the end of a charge. some are more complicated and have specific information about how and when to be used.
now a normal attack is trying to hit someone and deal damage. combat manuvers are trying to do something hostile to some1 who might not want that to happen. with difrent specific action in each difrent manuver. sunder tries to break items, disarm to remove weapons. overrun if you didn't guess so far is using a hostile (attack) action to move through some1 elses area without hindering you movement or prevocing attackes of opertunity for said movment (if you do not have improved overrun you prevoce an aoo from strating the menuver but that is something else).
sucsess in any of the manuvers let you do said hostile action. if the target doesn't mind your action or can't prevent it( such as being helpless, also in the rules) that attack action is an automatic sucess. so if a target doesn't want to hold it's weapon you disarm it aotumaticly and if a target would let you pass yuo overun it automaticly.
that being said these are still attacks and ,for example, an invisability spell would break after overruning someone who can see you and let you by.
2: the general rule is apllied unless a specific rule changes it. so the genral rule of attacking is to deal dmaage. and the general rule of movment in a turn is 1 move and one attack( if not full attacking). you got a specific rule of charging = 2 moves and an attack at the end. and you got a more spcific rule of charging with a combat menuver. that mean that you replace the normal attack in a charge wit ha combat manuver. you do not go back into the charge rule and get a normal attack after using the combat manuver attack.so if you charge to sunder you move twice and sunder you do not move twice sunder then get an attack becouse charge let you do an attack.
now overrun is a hostile action(aka attack) that is used to agresivly move through some1 elses area , meaning it is used to allow movement that normaly would not be allowed.and much like an acrobatic roll is infused into part of th emovment, BUT IT IS STILL A COMBET MANUVER = AN ATTACK
and it say this:
"As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target"
this is to namely say that overrun need a standard action and can not be used as a full round action.
and since overrun as a combat manuver is an attack action it is used instead of the normal attack in a round or the charge. the reason it is said to be used as part of a cahrge and not at the end of a charge (this is also the reason why unlike bull rush overrun don't mantion the +2 to charge attack bonus) is that since overrun is used to bypass some1. a lot of the timee this is used to get far beyound that some1. ether to attack some1 behind it. or to flee. and that mean you use it not only at the far end of a charge but a lot of the times the overrun target is right infront of you.(thos sometimes you do not move 10 feet to get to it and do not get the +2 from the charge momentum to the attack roll)
the reason overrun is not at the end of a charge is that you use it to be able to make the movment(and if you fail you stop infront of the target that doesn't let yo upass)
3:now to overrun some1 AND attack some1 during a charge comes the chare through feat. that basicly let you charge some1 even tho some1 else is on the way, if you are able to overrun them.(if you fail you stop right infront of them.)
so if you charge and use a normal attack you move up 2 times and attack.if you charge and use a combat manuver that can be used as any attack such as sunder you charge and use a sunder attack instead of the normal attack.if you want to use overrun while charging (i mean while moving 2 times in the same round) you move 2 times and once doring that movment you can use overrun to ignore try and ignore some1 who interupt that movment.
you can not overrun more then one person in a round without a speacial feat such as trample. unles you are able to get more then one standrd action in a round (hero point?).
one can argoue that with charge through you can overrun one target then instead of the attack at the end of the charge overrun that as well if you can reach behind it.
to sum it all:
1: overrun as a combat manuver is a speacial kind of attack and replaces normal rules for attack. ether the normal attack rule or the normal attack in a charge rule.
2; you do not get to attack with overrun attack in a charge and then get the normal attack in the charge(as charge is a general rule changed by the overrun specific rule) unless you have the "charge through" feat
3: if you overrun some1 before taking 10 feat you do not get the +2 to the overrun attack even if you continue to charge after that, it is reasnable to asume you do get the +2 to the overrun attack roll if you move more then 10 feat before overruning ,even if you do not move double your movement.( as some use a charge action soly for the +2 attack even without getting all the way to double move distance).
as for why bullrush have the words that mantion it replaces the nromal attack and overrun don't
that is just neet-picking, you can ask why doesn't the fly and levitate spell words not the same.
but here are a few ideas:
1 some1 else wrote each combat manuver?. one thought he need to make sure you understand the bullrush replace the attack. the other one thought that since he allready said it is a standard action youll be smart enough to apply the specif rule of the overrun attack action instead of the normal attack in a charge.
2 since bullrush is mainly moving and sweeping along whatver in the way. you might have thought it WAS only the movment part of the turn and wanted to add an attack. as overrun is basickly runing over some1 the writers thought you will understand by yourself that it is an attack.
3: the writers didn't look into each speacial manuver when wrting the other ones
4:bullrush's movment before and after the attack are difrent. you can move freely before but after you only move 5 +5 feet per +5 on the dc. so they had to say when the attack takes place. on overrun you move normaly if sucecss full and the attack can be anywhere in you movement range(up to one before last 5 ft)
all in all since bulllrush or over run don't have the words "un\like overrnun\bullrush" you really can't use rules (or lack of) from one to the other. like you can when using overrun and charge(since overrun actuly mantion charge)
It is quite clear that the overrun attempt does not replace your charge attack. It is quite clear that Overrun is not meant to do nothing.
It is quite clear that people love to over-complicate things.
Overrun - charge at a legal target and attack as normal then, whether you hit him with the charge or not, you overrun him to get past him.
Charge through - overrun an intervening foe and then charge your target (who would not be a legal target without this feat)
It complies with the wording of all 3 abilities, it's simple, logical and makes sense.
It is quite clear that the overrun attempt does not replace your charge attack. It is quite clear that Overrun is not meant to do nothing.
It is quite clear that people love to over-complicate things.Overrun - charge at a legal target and attack as normal then, whether you hit him with the charge or not, you overrun him to get past him.
Charge through - overrun an intervening foe and then charge your target (who would not be a legal target without this feat)
It complies with the wording of all 3 abilities, it's simple, logical and makes sense.
so out of all the combat manuver overrun is the only one that allow you to both attack AND use a combat menuver as a standard action?
and does that mean that since charge has no mantion of a sunder attack one can not charge and sunder the enemie's weapon?
or is it more simple to understand what combat manuver is all about - a difrent way to preforem an attack. wether it is an aao, a part of full round action or an attack at a charge. your problem is that you seem to think that a charge action MUST be with a damage dealing attack(lethal or nonlethal) while the whole point of the special charge action is explaining how one can move twice and "attack" at the same round. do notice. you can "attack" as a charge action and combat manuvers are "attacks". what is more simlper? to change one kind of attack with an other (the same way you do when you use sudner instead of one of your normal attacks in a round),or to decide that you get an extra attack because you are charging and attacking but that attack is "not" damage dealing so you want that too?
even AFTER you see that the wording on charge through is understood well into my explanation and yours is lacking by far.
it says so right there - overrun takes a standard attack. do you raely think it should allow you to take 2 move action + standard action to overrun + standard action to atttack? or should it be like the rest of charge action: 2 move and one attack(unless you got other feats).
also your words: " overrun -charge at a legal target".. that is just not right. what about the case of using over run as one move action? no charging there, is there?
the entire point of the guy calmimng he should also attack beside the overrun when he charges was that in bullrush it clearly said that it replaces the standard attac kof a cahrge. and in overrun it mealy says that the overrun is a stnadard action part of moving or charging.
so basicly because it doesn't say it replace then it is added?
how about reading charge as it is in the rules first:
"Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. Charging, however, carries tight restrictions on how you can move....After moving, you may make a single melee attack...Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge."
since combat manuvers ARE attacks as i pointed out above(if you would have bothered reading). by your way of "clearly " udnerstanding and "make snese " overrun actuly break the very first rule of charge " single melee attack" how does your "simple" way of reading work around that?!?
a high level warior can only attack once in a normal charge even if he heas 4 attacks each round with EACH of his weapons in each hands. but a level 1 fighter taht uses overrun in a charge get 2 attcks? (and yes - attacks. as i pointed out combat menuvers are attacks. look it up).
overrun state it is a standrd action taken doring a move action or as part of a charge action.you claim that if it is doring a charge action you also get an attack at the end ,because charge let you attack at the end of your double move. then why not give him an attack in the first case aftter using overrun as part of a normal move? anyone who only move get to attack after
fact is. overrun is the attack of the charge. it is not ment to be taken at the end of the cahrge(and thos the difrent wording) because you do not move and then attack when you overrun some1. you move while attacking(somewhat) so you can finish moving. that doesn't warent you a 2nd attack just because you finished you move.if that was the case anyone with spring attack could also charge while doing so and get 2 attacks. one doring his movement and a 2nd at it's end.
You know, that's bad form assuming I hadn't read any of your post just because I have expressed a differing opinion. I couldn't form the opinion it was over-complicated if I hadn't.
I read it and some are over-complicating it. You don't enforce the base rules when you have an ability modifying it. Otherwise nearly every single feat would do nothing.
There are plenty of ways that the core rules can be broken - pounce for example, breaks that very rule you highlight. This does exactly the same thing, modifying the existing rules.
Overrun is 'part of' the charge action not 'instead of'. It does nothing to remove the charge attack. It does nothing to change any other aspect of the charge, save that you can continue moving after the charge. Everything about it indicates it runs alongside of charge.
simply, elegantly, logically.
yes. feats can break the general rule. but overrun is NOT a feat it is a menuver every one can preform. as such if it goes alongside the cahrge it hsould have been mantioned in the charge action under it's information ,something along "you can allways make an overrun combat manuver while charging, on one target".
and it is not only the charge action this "general rule" breaks. it is also the total of actions you are allowd each round. since it is clearly stated to be a standard action taken as part of ether movment or charge.
general rules that does so are usaly specificly stated as such. so again you should have as part of the things one can do in his round have the statment that you are limited to one movement, one standard. if you charge 2 movements and one standrds ,oh and if you over run one more standard action.
this is not a simple rule that chnge the general rule. it is literly breaking the rules of bot hthe amount of actions you can take a tur nand the amount of atacks you can make in a charge. and it is not a even a faet. as a general sort of attack, it hsould have been mantioned that it changes both these general rules.. unless of course it doesn't, and as all combat menuvers it REPLACES the attack they talk about.you know? like the GENERAL RULE of combat manuvers? they come instead of the usial attack you can do in that turn? oh wow. isn't that more simple?
see instead of saying one general rule changes two others without mantioning in ether. i actuly use the general rule of the system the overrun uses t oexplain how it work. amazing!
It is absolutely astonishing that:
- This thread is more than four years old
- Two years after this thread was made, Jason Bulmahn appeared out of nowhere and said this thread was going to be addressed in "the next FAQ"
- Two years and an untold number of FAQs after THAT, this thread remains completely unaddressed.
Anyway, my interpretation of RAW is that, indeed, you:
#1) Initiate a charge action
#2) Make your charge attack at a +2 attack bonus and gain -2 AC
#3) Attempt your overrun. Without Improved Overrun, this will provoke an AoO.
I don't have a problem with that. Moreover, the silver bullet for my interpretation, in my opinion, is the bullrush text:
Bull Rush: You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack.
Compare that to...
Overrun: As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square.
The full text under the bull rush maneuver specifically mentions that your bullrush maneuver is in place of your melee attack. So, you can bull rush as part of a charge, but your bull rush attempt is made instead of making your melee attack.
That clarifying text does not exist under the full text of overrun. This leads me to believe that overrun maneuvers are different.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Things that are confusing about Overrun:
- Overrun during a charge is in addition to or in place of the melee attack.
- Overrun with Charge Through allows you to charge through someone else if you make the Overrun.
- How does this work with Elephant Stomp?
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Things that are confusing about Overrun:
- Overrun during a charge is in addition to or in place of the melee attack.
- Overrun with Charge Through allows you to charge through someone else if you make the Overrun.
- How does this work with Elephant Stomp?
I GM PFS a lot here in Washington, DC. After reading all the feats and rage powers meant to bolster Overrun and/or Charging, here is read as intended in my opinion, and this is how I play my Armored Hulk (he uses all of this except Elephant Stomp, as I have the book for Spiked Destroyer but not Elephant Stomp). The only exception is I have been nerfing myself by forgetting to take the charge attack (single melee attack) on my charge target when overrunning it. I've been focused on the AOOs from the feats. I will start including that!
1) Charging features an attack at the end of the movement. One overrun attempt is also allowed as part of the charge, on the target of the charge. You could take your charge attack first if desired. (So you can make a charge attack and keep going if you are successful in your overrun)
2) 'Charge through' gives an additional overrun attempt but only on an enemy in the charge lane, before arriving at the target of your charge, with no penalties, as a free action. This allows the actual charge attack and possibly additional overrun to be completed as above.
3) 'Elephant stomp' let's you make an attack as a swift action on the enemy you just knocked prone with an overrun at any point during your round, but your movement stops immediately.
4) 'Vicious stomp' let's you make an attack as an AOO against an enemy that goes prone
5) 'Greater overrun' let's you make an AOO against an enemy you successfully overrun (whether they go prone or not)
6)'Spiked destroyer' let's you make an attack as a swift action against an opponent successfully overran, knocked prone or not.
7) 'Overbearing onslaught' rage power allows additional overrun attempts on additional creatures at successive -2 (doesn't have to be in a straight line, can't be used to overrun creatures before your charge target, can be used after overrunning your charge target).
As an example of something cool using all this: with a little baddy between me and the BBEG, I overrun little baddy, overrun the BBEG (without the -2 from Overbearing Onslaught), and assuming my rolls are high enough during the round, I will have taken 6 attacks (1 swift, 4 AOO, 1 regular melee) and knocked both prone.
If the baddies aren't in a straight line, I use Overbearing Onslaught.
Might I suggest if you have interest in seeing Overrun FAQ'd to visit this thread Overrun as Part of a Charge and click the FAQ button on the first post.
The initial post in this thread has already been tagged as Answered in the FAQ which per Mark Seifter removes it from visibility. When I mentioned this thread he suggested starting a new one, so that's the one linked above. So far it's only got half a dozen clicks and based on discussion with Mark it sounds like it would need over 40 to have a chance at getting FAQ'd.
I know you are James and I appreciate it. That post was aimed at people incoming to this thread or who have been on this thread, since it's effectively dead for getting a clarification on Overrun, but the first thread that pops up if you do a search for "Overrun Charge".
If all the people who FAQ'd this thread FAQ'd the other we'd have a good chance at getting a FAQ...I think. But we aren't getting the clicks there which kinda surprised me considering this thread from 5 years ago got 40 clicks and the fan base for Pathfinder has only grown since then.
In any case, I understand and share your frustration with Overrun. It's sad and infuriating we can't get clarification on an option that has been present in Pathfinder since the start of Pathfinder as a rules system. That's not meant as a slam on the Developers as I understand they're busy and rules clarification for a RPG is a quagmire at best, but just statement of the feeling surrounding this.