| 41 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 10 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hello all,
I have a question (and some follow ups) to throw out there about charge and it's interaction with the Combat Maneuver called Overrun.
Overrun states that it may be invoked "as a standard action or as part of a charge". However, this maneuver is largely designed to move through the space of an enemy. Yet the text for charge stipulates "you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent [I will presume to stop there and attack]."
If the CM Overrun is used as part of a charge action where does the attack from charge come in? Is it before or after the Overrun Attempt? This is important for the next follow up questions.
Follow-up Example 1:
For example, I charge at a Goblin using a normal melee weapon. Can I choose to Overrun him (moving through his square and possibly knocking him prone) and then use my attack from charge when I reach the other side? (let us presume I have used feats on the Overrun Tree to ensure the target is prone).
Flavor-wise this seems correct as I can imagine a burly Barbarian barreling towards an unwitting opponent, throwing him to the ground with the impact and smashing a Warhammer into his chest.
Follow-up Example 2:
What about a non-mounted character using a Reach Melee Weapon? How would they overrun a character while charging? Would they be able to move "away" from their target after Overrun because Reach weapons can't be used on adjacent targets?
Thank you much, this one has been vexing me.
On a completely random note, I really enjoy the Charge Through feat from the APG, its really cool and I give kudos to Paizo for creating it.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Overrun states that it may be invoked "as a standard action or as part of a charge". However, this maneuver is largely designed to move through the space of an enemy. Yet the text for charge stipulates "you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent [I will presume to stop there and attack].
Could they have meant that you can overrun on a charge to move through an opponent who is between you and your charge target, not overun the actual charge target?
Or it could have meant that you could overrun charge and get +2 to hit, -2 AC, double move but one overrun attempt and replace the charge restrictions with the overun ones?
I think both could be valid.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Thanks for your responses! I see everyone is as puzzled by this idea as I am. I tried hard to scour the boards for information about this subject but I came up with zilch.
If I am not mistaken the overrun attempt is made instead of the attack at the end of a charge. You don't get to make both an attack and an overrun attempt.
Thanks Bart! Your guess is as good as mine, but if you take a good look at Overrun you'll notice that it is missing the clause that Bull Rush has applied to it. i.e. "make a bull rush CM in place of the melee attack". Overrun has no such clause therefore I see no reason why you could not both attack and Overrun during a charge which is why all the confusion began.
Could they have meant that you can overrun on a charge to move through an opponent who is between you and your charge target, not overun the actual charge target?
This is something I was wondering as well, however, the inclusion of the Charge Through feat in the Advanced Players Guide pretty much does what you're describing here. It seems to me that since the feat was created this interpretation was not the intent of the Overrun and Charge interaction as listed in the Players Guide.
It still begs to be asked does the attack come before or after the overrun attempt on a charge? As far as I know there has been no errata on the subject.
Hello all,
I have a question (and some follow ups) to throw out there about charge and it's interaction with the Combat Maneuver called Overrun.
Overrun states that it may be invoked "as a standard action or as part of a charge". However, this maneuver is largely designed to move through the space of an enemy. Yet the text for charge stipulates "you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent [I will presume to stop there and attack]."
If the CM Overrun is used as part of a charge action where does the attack from charge come in?
It doesn't. The Overrun attempt is instead of the Charge attack, barring if you Ride-By Attack, Charge Through, or if your mount has Trample.
Is it before or after the Overrun Attempt?
Neither, it's instead of.
Follow-up Example 1:
For example, I charge at a Goblin using a normal melee weapon. Can I choose to Overrun him (moving through his square and possibly knocking him prone) and then use my attack from charge when I reach the other side? (let us presume I have used feats on the Overrun Tree to ensure the target is prone).
No, without feats. Tell me what feats you have and i'll explain further.
Follow-up Example 2:
What about a non-mounted character using a Reach Melee Weapon? How would they overrun a character while charging? Would they be able to move "away" from their target after Overrun because Reach weapons can't be used on adjacent targets?
They could either Overrun or take the Charge attack from 10' away from creature.
On a completely random note, I really enjoy the Charge Through feat from the APG, its really cool and I give kudos to Paizo for creating it.
Yes. Yes it is.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Tanis, may I ask how you came to the conclusion that you cannot charge and overrun?
In the rules explaining Overrun it does not say anything about it replacing the melee attack during a charge, you may be thinking of Bull Rush.
Overrun (p.201)
As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of
a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving
through its square.Bull Rush (p.199)
You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a
charge, in place of the melee attack.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
a) Charge is a full-round action. Overrun is a standard action. You can't legally perform both.
b) If you could perform both, there would be no need for this feat:
Charge Through (Combat)
You can overrun enemies when charging.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Improved Overrun, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When making a charge, you can attempt to overrun one creature in the path of the charge as a free action. If you successfully overrun that creature, you can complete the charge. If the overrun is unsuccessful, the charge ends in the space directly in front of that creature.
Normal: You must have a clear path toward the target
of your charge.
Again, I am very green with Pathfinder and I do not know too much about this, but it seems to me that if what you suggest were the case then you could not perform a Bull Rush with a charge as you have used all your actions (full-round) and have no (standard) actions left.
The purpose, I think, of the Charge Through feat is to let you Overrun a secondary target in the path of the charge against a primary target.
The way an Overrun and Charge together would work, in my hypothesis, is that you would need to hit the same opponent with both maneuvers i.e. the target of the charge. That creature would not be in the path of the charge - as outlined by Charge Through - because it would be the target of the charge not obstructing it.
The language is very similar to Bull Rush but it does not say it replaces the attack. I guess that's my main (and pretty much only) counterpoint.
is there some errata for this that I am not aware of? I saw someone mention that this was clarified in 3.5, but I have never played 3.5 and don't know how that influences the rules in Pathfinder.
|
Again, I am very green with Pathfinder and I do not know too much about this, but it seems to me that if what you suggest were the case then you could not perform a Bull Rush with a charge as you have used all your actions (full-round) and have no (standard) actions left.
The purpose, I think, of the Charge Through feat is to let you Overrun a secondary target in the path of the charge against a primary target.
The way an Overrun and Charge together would work, in my hypothesis, is that you would need to hit the same opponent with both maneuvers i.e. the target of the charge. That creature would not be in the path of the charge - as outlined by Charge Through - because it would be the target of the charge not obstructing it.
The language is very similar to Bull Rush but it does not say it replaces the attack. I guess that's my main (and pretty much only) counterpoint.
The two combat maneuvers do not have the same wording. However, I would note that in a standard Bull Rush or Overrun you can't make an attack along with either. I don't know why charge would be a special case for Overrun but not Bull Rush, especially since, IMO, it is more powerful to knock someone prone (which has penalties and requires an action to get up that provokes) than to push them in most circumstances.
I'd guess that the wording is an oversight.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
a) Charge is a full-round action. Overrun is a standard action. You can't legally perform both. b) If you could perform both, there would be no need for this feat:
Charge Through (Combat)
Benefit: When making a charge, you can attempt to overrun one creature in the path of the charge as a free action. If you successfully overrun that creature, you can complete the charge. If the overrun is unsuccessful, the charge ends in the space directly in front of that creature.
Normal: You must have a clear path toward the target
of your charge.
That is correct. So, what if your overrun attempt fails and you "end your charge" in front of the creature that was in your path. Do you still get your Charge attack on that creature instead?
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
a) Charge is a full-round action. Overrun is a standard action. You can't legally perform both.
b) If you could perform both, there would be no need for this feat:
Charge Through (Combat)
You can overrun enemies when charging.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Improved Overrun, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When making a charge, you can attempt to overrun one creature in the path of the charge as a free action. If you successfully overrun that creature, you can complete the charge. If the overrun is unsuccessful, the charge ends in the space directly in front of that creature.
Normal: You must have a clear path toward the target
of your charge.
I think you are interpreting this incorrectly, Tanis. First, the description for Overrun specifies that it can be done as a standard action or as part of a charge. That's pretty clear - it can be combined with a charge, it doesn't say instead of, it says as part of. There wouldn't be any point in saying it can be used as part of a charge, if you couldn't attack in combination with it. In fact, the description of Overrun seems to suggest that you *have* to make an attack against the target of your overrun in order to move through it, unless it chooses to let you pass unimpeded. From the core rulebook, pg 201: "When you attempt to overrun a target, it can choose to avoid you, allowing you to pass through its square without requiring an attack."
The Charge Through feat refers to using the overrun cm to move through enemies that stand between you and your target. Normally, you have to have an unimpeded line to your target to do a charge action.
If you have speed 30, and you're trying to charge a hobgoblin lieutenant standing 45 feet away, you can use Overrun as part of the charge to move past him, attacking on the way, and stop fifteen feet past him so that he can't retaliate against you with full-round melee attacks against your reduced AC.
Now, let's say that that the lieutenant is standing at the end of a 5' wide hallway, and one of his underlings is standing between you and him. With a normal charge maneuver, you can't charge the lieutenant, because A) you'd have to end your charge adjacent to the underling, or B) you'd have to select the "overrun as a standard action" option to get past the underling, leaving you with only a move action remaining to move into range to melee with the lieutenant, or C) you'd have to select the "overrun as part of a charge" option, switching the target of your charge to the underling, attacking him as you go by, and ending up in range to melee with the lieutenant, but without an attack remaining, and vulnerable to his attacks with your AC reduced from the charge. This is where the Charge Through feat comes into play. With that feat, you can move right through the underling, ignoring limitations A, B and C above, and still get your attack on the lieutenant, albeit still vulnerable to his full-round retaliation against your reduced AC, since you can't overrun both enemies in the same round. Now, if I'm right in interpreting the RAW as meaning that you have to take an attack in order to overrun, unless the opponent lets you pass, then you can effectively make attacks against both enemies when using the Charge Through feat.
|
|
That is correct. So, what if your overrun attempt fails and you "end your charge" in front of the creature that was in your path. Do you still get your Charge attack on that creature instead?
I would say yes, since it is a free action to attempt, so failure does not cost you a standard action or a full action. Your charge ends, but it doesn't prevent you from attacking the creature that stopped you.
Nightwish said:
"First, the description for Overrun specifies that it can be done as a standard action or as part of a charge. That's pretty clear - it can be combined with a charge, it doesn't say instead of, it says as part of. There wouldn't be any point in saying it can be used as part of a charge, if you couldn't attack in combination with it. "
Now it seems that you can Charge and then either A) attack once, or B) Overrun the target. I am not sure about doing both at the end of the Charge.
|
|
Nightwish said:
"First, the description for Overrun specifies that it can be done as a standard action or as part of a charge. That's pretty clear - it can be combined with a charge, it doesn't say instead of, it says as part of. There wouldn't be any point in saying it can be used as part of a charge, if you couldn't attack in combination with it. "
Now it seems that you can Charge and then either A) attack once, or B) Overrun the target. I am not sure about doing both at the end of the Charge.
At the risk of oversimplifying, in a nutshell, what Overrun does is allow you to attack in the middle of a charge (sort of a melee drive-by) instead of at the end of it. It's sort of the ground-based creature's equivalent of Fly-by Attack, except that you can actually continue your movement through the enemy rather than "by" him. And as I noted earlier, if you look closely at the overrun description, it seems to imply that you have to take an attack unless the enemy chooses to let you pass unchallenged.
...you can use Overrun as part of the charge to move past him, attacking on the way, and stop fifteen feet past him so that he can't retaliate against you with full-round melee attacks against your reduced AC.
I hope you're are equivocating "attack" as a "combat maneuver" and not as an overrun plus and attack. It seems like you might be saying that you get overrun and attack on the Charge Through and then overrun and attack on the focus of the charge.
"If your attack exceeds your opponent's CMD by 5 or more, you move through the target's space and the target is knocked prone."(from Overrun) That's your 'attack' there on a Charge Through; then you get to make the charge attack on the target of the charge (whether it be a melee attack or an overrun attempt). So you are getting an overrun attack while moving and an attack at the end of your move with the Charge Through feat.
|
|
...you can use Overrun as part of the charge to move past him, attacking on the way, and stop fifteen feet past him so that he can't retaliate against you with full-round melee attacks against your reduced AC.I hope you're are equivocating "attack" as a "combat maneuver" and not as an overrun plus and attack.
Overrun, by definition, includes a melee attack. That's the attack I'm referring to.
It seems like you might be saying that you get overrun and attack on the Charge Through and then overrun and attack on the focus of the charge.
"If your attack exceeds your opponent's CMD by 5 or more, you move through the target's space and the target is knocked prone."(from Overrun) That's your 'attack' there on a Charge Through; then you get to make the charge attack on the target of the charge (whether it be a melee attack or an overrun attempt). So you are getting an overrun attack while moving and an attack at the end of your move with the Charge Through feat.
With the Charge Through feat, you would get attacks against two separate enemies - the one you moving through, and the final target, but - but I think you can only Overrun the first one. Not sure, though, because the way Charge Through is worded, that Overrun is a free action, so it could be argued that you could Overrun both targets, but I'm not sure that was how it was intended.
Ever since 3.5, I've interpreted Overrun as part of charge to be that you could overrun a target that was intervening between you and your intended charge recipient. That's what I always thought the point of it was. Which is why I always thought it was odd that you couldn't charge through allies - all you'd have to do is overrun your allies, they choose not to block you, and you continue on your merry way to your target.
Considering I've never seen anyone bother to overrun at all, except in the case of an ally being in the way and it just being a free move through, I'm not unconvinced that that isn't the general point. Which is why I thought the Charge Through feat from the APG just didn't make any darn sense at all.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
With the Charge Through feat, you would get attacks against two separate enemies - the one you moving through, and the final target, but - but I think you can only Overrun the first one. Not sure, though, because the way Charge Through is worded, that Overrun is a free action, so it could be argued that you could Overrun both targets, but I'm not sure that was how it was intended.
I like the cut of your jib! However, I must say you're getting off track. You only ever get a single attack off of a Charge Action.
The Charge Through feat DOES allow you to make TWO Overrun attempts however.
Step One: Charge a blocked opponent!
Step Two: Overrun the guy in the way (free action)
Step Three: Arrive at target
Step Four: Choose from normal Charge options: Melee Attack, Bull Rush or Overrun.
Please do note this gets more complex with Greater Overrun.
The focus of this thread was supposed to be: Can you overrun and attack in a charge (basic unmodified charge)? I still say the answer is yes. The rules clearly say "as a part of" and do not include "in place of the melee attack". But, it may simply be a rules oversight as suggested before.
the Charge Through feat from the APG just didn't make any darn sense at all.
Charge Through is nifty as it essentially gives a free Combat Maneuver check. Think of it more as a guy trampling the punk in his way. It expands the number of times charge is useful as you are no longer required to have a clear, unimpeded path to your target.
Hm. I always interpreted the rules as meaning that a "charging overrun" would involve (a) double-moving in a straight line without impeded movment (other than the target of your overrun), (b) a +2 bonus to the overrun attempt and a -2 penalty to AC, but (c) no actual attack at the end of the "charge".
But now I'm not so sure...
+1 to Hogarth I always saw it this way. I assumed the charge through feat would let you over run a you and a target after which you would hit or bull rush the charged target target. I don't think two over runs was intended
|
|
Hm. I always interpreted the rules as meaning that a "charging overrun" would involve (a) double-moving in a straight line without impeded movment (other than the target of your overrun), (b) a +2 bonus to the overrun attempt and a -2 penalty to AC, but (c) no actual attack at the end of the "charge".
But now I'm not so sure...
+1. This is how I've always (and still) interpret it. If the statement "or as part of a charge" you could only ever overrun something one move action away. The wording lets you do it from 2 move actions away so long as you can charge the target. The Charge Through feat's purpose is to let you charge someone you normally couldn't because an enemy (or technically an ally) was in the way, like the BBEG wizard.
+1. This is how I've always (and still) interpret it.
This may be your interpretation, or the "spirit of the rule" or the "intended" functionality or rules over-sight or none of these. However, if you look at how the rule for Overrun is written it clearly does not function in the way you are describing.
"part of a charge" but not "in place of the melee attack". Look to Bull Rush for this clear delineation of either attack or combat maneuver. There are TWO parts to a charge: the movement and the decision after you arrive at your target.
Does that mean you can still make the melee attack [along with an Overrun] under the Pathfinder rules?
Yes it does.
|
|
I'd also like to point out that with a fully literal interpretation of the rules one cannot charge with a lance on horseback. Sometimes taking a step back and realizing what is intended is actually the best way to go with it. That being said, I actually still believe the wording of overrun fully works with my interpretation.
I'd also like to point out that with a fully literal interpretation of the rules one cannot charge with a lance on horseback.
I'm not sure what you're saying here this rule is not that rule...
Pathfinder/D&D takes many liberties with real physics (see can't hit an adjacent enemy with a reach weapon) in order to create the game atmosphere. I'm not sure how your argument factors into this one, but if you provide more details we can attempt to sort it out.
i would like to point out that if you could over run somone and then attack a guy on the other side. with the core rules, like some seem to be suggesting they would not have added the charge through feat.
i would like to point out that if you could over run somone and then attack a guy on the other side. with the core rules, like some seem to be suggesting they would not have added the charge through feat.
In the core rules: You're not Overring Target A and attacking target B, you're doing both to target A.
You can't declare a target of a charge that is obstructed (without charge through). Charge through allows you to make an Overrun check to see if you can bypass the guy in the way.
Charge requires a target to invoke as that is what dictates which square you will end in and there are many limitations on what qualifies as a target for charge.
i would like to point out that if you could over run somone and then attack a guy on the other side. with the core rules, like some seem to be suggesting they would not have added the charge through feat.
That's true. But, of course, we went the entirety of 3.5 without such a feat. So your logic would imply that you could, and Paizo just changed it. It's how I've interpreted overrun since 3.5, which is why I thought that the chargethrough feat was actually really dumb. And it wouldn't be the first time Paizo's put out a feat that's useless (see Cockatrice Strike...).
The way some of you are suggesting charge works with overrun seems awfully strong. I mean why would anyone ever not do the two of them together? Space issues aside.
If anybody hasn`t yet, hit the FAQ button on the original post,
that would be more productive than whatever discussion we could have on this topic, IMHO.
(well, at least if/when Paizo responds to the FAQ issue)
The way some of you are suggesting charge works with overrun seems awfully strong. I mean why would anyone ever not do the two of them together? Space issues aside.
That's true, but I'd argue that its a good thing to be a little strong. Most people have never seen overrun even used in a game! It should get a little love.
Besides, you have to beat the CMD by 5 or more to knock them prone - otherwise it's just a glorified Acrobatics check.
You can of course use Acrobatics to move through a threatened square/the opponent's square and still attack, yes? That seems much more potent than this "only when the stars align" Overrun.
The way some of you are suggesting charge works with overrun seems awfully strong. I mean why would anyone ever not do the two of them together? Space issues aside.
It does seem a little strong, but many people have never even seen Overrun be used *at all*. I would think that there should be some way to make this maneuver viable.
After all, it is simply a glorified acrobatics check [unless you beat the CMD by 5 or greater], AND you can at least move through a threatened/occupied square and still attack when making an Acrobatics Check.
Why does overrun get the short end of the stick? Acrobatics is light-years ahead of this and you only "pump it up" on a charge which is pretty situational to begin with.
I too am interested in what the powers that be have to say... faq pleeez :)
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
The Charge Through feat DOES allow you to make TWO Overrun attempts however.Step One: Charge a blocked opponent!
Step Two: Overrun the guy in the way (free action)
Step Three: Arrive at target
Step Four: Choose from normal Charge options: Melee Attack, Bull Rush or Overrun.Charge Through is nifty as it essentially gives a free Combat Maneuver check. Think of it more as a guy trampling the punk in his way. It expands the number of times charge is useful as you are no longer required to have a clear, unimpeded path to your target.
This is the way I see it, too.
Step One: Charge a blocked opponent!
Step Two: Overrun the guy in the way (free action)
Step Three: Arrive at target
Step Four: Choose from normal Charge options: Melee Attack, Bull Rush or Overrun.
@Tristan
That is very true, it probably should work that way, I agree with you, however... that is not currently how the rules are written in the Core rules.
The Overrun text is lacking any qualifier text [like Bull Rush] and it certainly appears you may attack AND overrun during a charge using RAW.
|
A good discussion! I have a cavalier in my Kingmaker group so the timing of this thread is excellent.
If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge.
Emphasis mine.
Per RAW a charge is not possible if there are intervening creatures between you and your charge target. So the only kind of Overrun that can be performed as part of a legal charge is on the target of the charge, with no intervening creatures.
Overrun does not replace the charge attack as Bullrush obviously does per RAW. Unfortunately, in order to overrun a legal charge target we would need the ability to continue moving into their square and on through. For a vanilla charge, this does not happen. Your movement halts when you've reached your target for the charge attack, making an overrun impossible to complete.
Only when a character is equipped with the Ride-by-Attack feat are they capable of charging their legal target head on, make their charge attack, and continue on through their target's space with an overrun attempt. Of course, unless the character is also equipped with the Improved Overrun feat, this is easy enough to avoid by the target (unless they are a badass and think they can halt your movement).
The Charge Through feat allows a character to charge through a single foe before proceeding on to the target of their charge as an exception to the normal rules for legal charge targets.
A good discussion! I have a cavalier in my Kingmaker group so the timing of this thread is excellent.
Aww. thanks!
Your movement halts when you've reached your target for the charge attack, making an overrun impossible to complete.
I understand your concern here, but if an overrun were not possible during an unmounted charge *at all*, why create the confusion by including this clause in the first place? It seems like an addendum to Ride-By-Attack. I would infer that once you reach the stopping point you could then choose to continue as with overrun, but I realize this is an enormous leap of faith from the RAW.
Further, lets say you didn't want to attack, just overrun on a charge. That would be utterly impossible from what you're saying. Somehow, I can't buy that. Even though you have to halt your movement, you have the option to continue with a succesful overrun attempt (theoretically).
In all other aspects, we heartily agree.
Why doesn't the overrun replace the attack from charge like with bull rush? Nothing in the wording is any different.
Why doesn't the overrun replace the attack from charge like with bull rush? Nothing in the wording is any different.
I thought you would have kept up with this because you've participated in the thread for so long, and all I seem to post is about the differences. The wording is very different. But, I digress - here are the references from RAW:
Bull Rush:
You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack.Overrun:
As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square.
[says nothing about replacing the melee attack from a charge]
If then, it says nothing about replacing attacks, we should still be entitled to an attack.
If then, it says nothing about replacing attacks, we should still be entitled to an attack.Bull Rush:
You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack.Overrun:
As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square.
[says nothing about replacing the melee attack from a charge]
If you perform an Overrun action when not making a Charge, you basically throw away your standard action for the round to make an Overrun attempt during your normal move action.
Why is it when you make a Charge, you can suddenly attack after making an Overrun attempt? This makes no sense. You already gain the benefit of a double move action and a standard action (melee attack, Bull Rush or Overrun). There is no reason to assume you should gain the benefit of 2 standard actions and a double move action during a Charge.
Why is it when you make a Charge, you can suddenly attack after making an Overrun attempt? This makes no sense.
This is the way the rules are written. Many that have posted here have expressed concern about the interaction of Overrun and Charge. Liquidsabre's post that affirms this reading of Charge/Overrun and makes this interpretation seem like a somewhat common occurrence. Other posters have been wavering on the issue.
There is no reason to assume you should gain the benefit of 2 standard actions and a double move action during a Charge.
There is in fact no reason not to assume this. If this was *not* to be assumed about Overrun it could have quite easily been written into the rules as the restriction was with Bull Rush. The lack of a similarly restrictive language leads me to assume the proposed interpretation is correct.
I am only posing a question based on what the rules currently say.
Further, is getting an Overrun attempt on a Charge so gamebreaking? As I stated before, it normally pales in comparison with Acrobatics which can be used for NO action at any time during combat. The only time it will really shine at all is during a charge, which are infrequent at best. And if you don't have Improved Overrun you'll be provoking AoOs.
At the moment, it seems the only option we have is to settle on individual DM rulings in the absence of a formal response.
|
|
a) Charge is a full-round action. Overrun is a standard action. You can't legally perform both.
b) If you could perform both, there would be no need for this feat:
Charge Through (Combat)
You can overrun enemies when charging.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Improved Overrun, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When making a charge, you can attempt to overrun one creature in the path of the charge as a free action. If you successfully overrun that creature, you can complete the charge. If the overrun is unsuccessful, the charge ends in the space directly in front of that creature.
Normal: You must have a clear path toward the target
of your charge.
+1. We pondered this very question when a dwarf fighter's player asked me if he could use overrun (without any of the feats, mind) an interposing skeleton *and* hit an evil priest at the end of his charge. After a brief discussion we came to the conclusion that the bit about using overrun as part of the charge means that you can (from a practical point of view) take a double move and then use overrun (as if you were charging) but *not* attack.
'Charge Through' further implies that this was a correct interpretation (but it should be more clearly spelled out in the Core Rulebook).
'Charge Through' further implies that this was a correct interpretation (but it should be more clearly spelled out in the Core Rulebook).
It's possible, but the written rules don't support your observation about how Charge/Overrun functions. It makes no mention of if you can or cannot attack if you use Overrun in conjunction with charge.
Charge Through: "When making a charge, you can attempt to overrun one creature in the path of the charge as a free action."
If you attempted to use this feat on an unobstructed creature, the target would not be in the "path" of the charge. It would be the "target" of the charge. The charge ends at the "target".
Charge Through allows a character to make a charge at a target that would otherwise be considered obstructed by another creature (thus an invalid target for a standard, vanilla charge).
This does not factor in to the problem, but is an interesting aside.
This is the way the rules are written. Many that have posted here have expressed concern about the interaction of Overrun and Charge. Liquidsabre's post that affirms this reading of Charge/Overrun and makes this interpretation seem like a somewhat common occurrence. Other posters have been wavering on the issue.
Why is it when you make a Charge, you can suddenly attack after making an Overrun attempt? This makes no sense.
No, that is not how it is written. That is YOUR interpretation, which you are allowed to have. It does not make it RAW, however.
There is no reason to assume you should gain the benefit of 2 standard actions and a double move action during a Charge.There is in fact no reason not to assume this. If this was *not* to be assumed about Overrun it could have quite easily been written into the rules as the restriction was with Bull Rush. The lack of a similarly restrictive language leads me to assume the proposed interpretation is correct.
I draw my interpretation from the "bigger picture" as it were. The rules for Overrun are on page 201 of the Core Rulebook. Much earlier in the book, on page 181, it states for a normal round, you can make one standard action and a move action or a full round action. The next several pages (prior to Overrun and Charge) give good examples of what constitutes these types of actions and what you can do during these actions. No where does it ever suggest you can make 2 standard actions and 2 move actions in one round.
The Charge rule allows you to make 2 move actions at the cost of significantly reduced options for a standard action, all bundled into a full round action. In my opinion, Charge is much the opposite of a Full Attack action, where you get several standard actions with greatly reduced move options (5 foot).
I am only posing a question based on what the rules currently say.
Further, is getting an Overrun attempt on a Charge so gamebreaking? As I stated before, it normally pales in comparison with Acrobatics which can be used for NO action at any time during combat. The only time it will really shine at all is during a charge, which are infrequent at best. And if you don't have Improved Overrun you'll be provoking AoOs.
And if you have Greater Overrun, you get 2 attacks at the end of your Charge. One from the Greater Overrun ability (if you knock the target prone) and one for the extra attack action you see as intrinsic to the Charge action. Since movement and multi-attack options are rare in Pathfinder, I dont think this is how it was ment to be.
The tumbling rule you are referring to has it's own limitations. You cannot tumble if you have your speed reduced by armor or carry weight. You cant move at full speed unless you are prepared to grant a +10 bonus to the DC of the target you are tumbling past. Moving through the space occupied by the target grants it an additional +5 bonus to it's DC.
At the moment, it seems the only option we have is to settle on individual DM rulings in the absence of a formal response.
This seems to be par for the course in many discussions. I understand your point of view, but I believe it runs contrary to the intent behind the rules. I admit that my argument is based on RAI and the designers should clear it up.
|
|
'Charge Through' further implies that this was a correct interpretation (but it should be more clearly spelled out in the Core Rulebook).It's possible, but the written rules don't support your observation about how Charge/Overrun functions. It makes no mention of if you can or cannot attack if you use Overrun in conjunction with charge.
Charge Through: "When making a charge, you can attempt to overrun one creature in the path of the charge as a free action."
If you attempted to use this feat on an unobstructed creature, the target would not be in the "path" of the charge. It would be the "target" of the charge. The charge ends at the "target".
Charge Through allows a character to make a charge at a target that would otherwise be considered obstructed by another creature (thus an invalid target for a standard, vanilla charge).
This does not factor in to the problem, but is an interesting aside.
Uh, isn't that what I said, except for the bit about attack at the end? Because if you *did* get to overrun + attack (another target) without any feats, it would 'Charge Through' a completely useless feat. Perhaps I described the situation in my example too vaguely? The dwarf could not reach the evil priest in question; there were two skeleton in the way, and thus he could not charge without overrunning one of them first. That is why the player asked about the charge + overrun, i.e. whether he can knock down one of the skeletons *and* get to "complete" the charge by attacking the priest. I came to the conclusion that it's not allowed as per RAW, and 'Charge Through' clarifies that I was correct in my interpretation. Again, even though the wording is unclear in the core rules, if you *could* overrun a foe obstructing your path, plus charge with all the benefits, this feat wouldn't exist.
My example -- and my agreement with Tanis' points -- has nothing to do with using 'Charge Through' against unobstructed targets.
No where does it ever suggest you can make 2 standard actions and 2 move actions in one round.
While its true that there are guidelines for what can be done in a full round, this is not an exhaustive list of every option. What I am suggesting could be an exception not covered under the rules guidelines.
This seems to be par for the course in many discussions. I understand your point of view, but I believe it runs contrary to the intent behind the rules. I admit that my argument is based on RAI and the designers should clear it up.
Again, this may or may not be true. In absence of any other reference to a similar Combat Maneuver, we cannot pass judgement.
Unfortunately, it is not worded the same as Bull Rush, so we can't use that as reference. What you suggest may be true, I'm willing to accept that. But, its not the way the rules are written in respect to Overrun. It seems to be the exception and not the rule, I'm wondering why.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Because if you *did* get to overrun + attack (another target) without any feats, it would 'Charge Through' a completely useless feat. Perhaps I described the situation in my example too vaguely? The dwarf could not reach the evil priest in question; there were two skeleton in the way, and thus he could not charge without overrunning one of them first.
...
I came to the conclusion that it's not allowed as per RAW, and 'Charge Through' clarifies that I was correct in my interpretation.
You can't charge a creature that is obstructed by another creature without charge through. You came to the correct conclusion about your situation, however that is not what we are discussing here. Your situation is affecting two creatures. [Note he still would not make it to the priest because there are two obstructing creatures and charge through can only account for one]
Charge Through is an extra Overrun check made during the movement part of the charge. I'm concerned with the end of the charge.
if you *could* overrun a foe obstructing your path, plus charge with all the benefits, this feat wouldn't exist.
First, I never said you could overrun a foe that was obstructing your path and then continue your charge. That simply is not what we have been discussing here.
Second, what I'm suggesting does not invalidate the feat as you suggest, using Charge Through is in fact a different circumstance than a normal charge. Let's take a look:
Without Charge Through (my version)
1. Declare Charge against a valid target
2. Arrive at Target
3. Choose to Overrun (y/n)
4. Choose to Attack or Bull Rush
With the above, you are not Overruning a foe that is obstructing your path, you are simply charging your primary target. There is no obstruction.
With Charge Through
1. Declare Charge against an obstructed target
2. Overrun obstructing creature
3. If successful, Arrive at target.
4. Choose to Overrun (y/n)
5. Choose to Attack or Bull Rush
This thread is about performing a vanilla charge action andif you c an perform an Overrun check in conjunction with an Attack. That attack would have to come against the target of the charge, not a secondary creature. Charge Through works as intended.
Why doesn't the overrun replace the attack from charge like with bull rush? Nothing in the wording is any different.I thought you would have kept up with this because you've participated in the thread for so long, and all I seem to post is about the differences. The wording is very different. But, I digress - here are the references from RAW:
If then, it says nothing about replacing attacks, we should still be entitled to an attack.Bull Rush:
You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack.Overrun:
As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square.
[says nothing about replacing the melee attack from a charge]
I have been following, but when I went through it in my mind I wasn't getting it, I still mostly disagree with the I get to overrun and attack end of this discussion. But it looks like without an official opinion this may just have to be left to dm individual opinion.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Why doesn't the overrun replace the attack from charge like with bull rush? Nothing in the wording is any different.I thought you would have kept up with this because you've participated in the thread for so long, and all I seem to post is about the differences. The wording is very different. But, I digress - here are the references from RAW:
If then, it says nothing about replacing attacks, we should still be entitled to an attack.Bull Rush:
You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack.Overrun:
As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square.
[says nothing about replacing the melee attack from a charge]
With the above, you are not Overruning a foe that is obstructing your path, you are simply charging your primary target. There is no obstruction.
With Charge Through
1. Declare Charge against an obstructed target
2. Overrun obstructing creature
3. If successful, Arrive at target.
4. Choose to Overrun (y/n)
5. Choose to Attack or Bull Rush
I stand corrected. It looks like you do charge, overrun, and then get your charge attack or Bull Rush. Overrun moves you through the target. Beat the CMD by 5 and you knock it prone.