Overrun and Charge


Rules Questions

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Thank you Tristan... thank you.

This is what seems will happen on a charge per what is written in the book. If Paizo did NOT intend for this to work in this manner then the rules can be amended and we can move on with our lives.

Unfortunately, now we have to still answer my initial questions of timing and resolution because charge became much more complex than we thought it was.

Sovereign Court

Stynkk wrote:
Asgetrion wrote:

Because if you *did* get to overrun + attack (another target) without any feats, it would 'Charge Through' a completely useless feat. Perhaps I described the situation in my example too vaguely? The dwarf could not reach the evil priest in question; there were two skeleton in the way, and thus he could not charge without overrunning one of them first.

...
I came to the conclusion that it's not allowed as per RAW, and 'Charge Through' clarifies that I was correct in my interpretation.

You can't charge a creature that is obstructed by another creature without charge through. You came to the correct conclusion about your situation, however that is not what we are discussing here. Your situation is affecting two creatures. [Note he still would not make it to the priest because there are two obstructing creatures and charge through can only account for one]

Charge Through is an extra Overrun check made during the movement part of the charge. I'm concerned with the end of the charge.

Asgetrion wrote:
if you *could* overrun a foe obstructing your path, plus charge with all the benefits, this feat wouldn't exist.

First, I never said you could overrun a foe that was obstructing your path and then continue your charge. That simply is not what we have been discussing here.

Second, what I'm suggesting does not invalidate the feat as you suggest, using Charge Through is in fact a different circumstance than a normal charge. Let's take a look:

Without Charge Through (my version)
1. Declare Charge against a valid target
2. Arrive at Target
3. Choose to Overrun (y/n)
4. Choose to Attack or Bull Rush

With the above, you are not Overruning a foe that is obstructing your path, you are simply charging your primary target. There is no obstruction.

With Charge Through
1. Declare Charge against an obstructed target
2. Overrun obstructing creature
3. If successful, Arrive at target.
4. Choose to Overrun (y/n)
5. Choose to Attack or Bull Rush

This thread is...

So where does Ride-By-Attack fit and how does it differ to Charge Through in function?

Without Charge Through but with Ride By Attack:
1. Declare Charge against a valid target
2. Arrive at Target
3. Choose to Overrun (y/n)
4. Choose to Attack or Bull Rush
5. Continue to the max of your movement?


Latigo Black wrote:
So where does Ride-By-Attack fit and how does it differ to Charge Through in function?

I have no idea sir, but let's find out.

prd wrote:

Spoiler:

Ride-By Attack (Combat)

While mounted and charging, you can move, strike at a foe, and then continue moving.

Prerequisites: Ride 1 rank, Mounted Combat.

Benefit: When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge). Your total movement for the round can't exceed double your mounted speed. You and your mount do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent that you attack.

Seems pretty clear from what I'm reading that Charge Through and Ride-By Attack are completely different. First, you can't declare your charge against an obstructed target like you can with Charge Through, which allows you to negate one creature. Because you can't declare against an obstructed target - you can't overrun the blocking creature, that pesky creature has to be the target of your charge. Getting through these blockers and hitting your target is the primary purpose of Charge Through.

If you have Ride-By Attack you can simply use that feat on the blocker and move beyond to the creature you're looking to attack, if they are in range of the person you've ridden by. However, you won't be able to attack the real threat until next turn. Also, do note that with Ride-By attack you don't draw AoOs for moving as you would when performing a normal charge/overrun attack.

They can be employed in a similar way to yield results that are similar, but their actual function is very different.

Does that help?

Liberty's Edge

The attack made while using overrun is in fact the CMB attempt. "If your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD by 5 or more, you move through the target’s space and the target is knocked prone."

Since the attack is compared to the CMD and not to the AC of the target, it implies that the attack is the combat maneuver (using your CMB) and not a usual damage-dealing attack.

In fact, throughout the text describing overrun, the words maneuver, combat maneuver and attack are used in sequence to describe the same thing.

It avoids repeating the same word again and again, but it leads to some ambiguity and differing interpretations of the RAW, as seen in the above posts.

The description of Overrun is really poorly worded, especially compared to that of Bull-Rush.

Shadow Lodge

6 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Has this question been addressed by Paizo in the FAQ? The thread suggests that it has, but I can't seem to find it...?

Thanks, and *great* discussion, everyone! Very enlightening and thought-provoking to read!


7 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

That's weird -- I don't know why it's marked "answered in the FAQ". There's nothing about overrunning in the FAQ.


I hope it has been answered, but I don't think it has... *vested interest*

Shadow Lodge

Yea...I looked all over for it.

In a game I'm running, one of my players is a Hexcrafter Magus who took the Flight Hex at level 4. Now that he's level 5, he loves the idea about being able to try flying over-runs using your (Stynkk and Tristan) interpretation of how it works (knock target over + attack-while-moving-through-target-square). In theory, Fly-by attack would allow for this, with the trade-off of him being able to do things other than melee attack, at the cost of taking an AoO (which for his lightly armored Magus, he's not too fond of). Plus, Fly-by attack being out of the Bestiary isn't "legal" for PF Society, methinks...

Flying characters would benefit greatly from an "official" call on overrun, charge through, etc.

Again, it's been enlightening and really great reading the discussion!

Grand Lodge

Overrun is completely compatible with charge. Sure overrun is a standard action and charge is a full-round round action and normally not compatible, except for the text in the rules that specifically allow the combination.

So to do an Overrun-Charge you initiate a Charge, using all of the normal rules associated with Charge. In other words straight line, +2 to hit, -2 to AC. When you are adjacent to the opponent's square you take your Overrun Maneuver. As part of a Charge, your Overrun receives a +2 to to the CMB roll, and during the entirety of the next round your AC is -2.

These Maneuvers can be used with Charge:
Bull Rush (standard action normally but specifically called out to allow compatibility with Charge)
Disarm (it is a melee attack, and can be used in place of any melee attack, such as the normal melee attack of Charge)
Overrun (standard action normally but specifically called out to allow compatibility with Charge)
Sunder (it is a melee attack, and can be used in place of any melee attack, such as the normal melee attack of Charge)
Trip (it is a melee attack, and can be used in place of any melee attack, such as the normal melee attack of Charge)

Essentially all Charging does to any of the maneuvers is add +2 to the CMB roll, and give -2 to AC for the round. And you get some extra movement.

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

For the record (not that it really needs to be stated among us on this board), I *love* Paizo.

I sent an inquiry about this to their customer service email (the "FAQ-answered but doesn't show up in the actual FAQ" thing), and got a really nice email back today:

Quote:

Greetings,

First things first thanks for your patience while I was looking into this. Checking the status of the FAQ, it looks like it has not updated yet since the answer was issued. It should be updating some time in the near future, but if you don't see it pop up on the rules FAQ here in the next few days here send us another email, and we'll investigate why it hasn't appeared further.

If you have any further questions or concerns, please let me know. Thanks!

Sincerely,

Erik
Customer Service

Looks like we'll have an official answer shortly! I (and two of my players) are excited!


Overrun rules were incomprehensible back in 3.5, and I'm amazed that they managed to not write useful text in the PF core.


CanisDirus wrote:
Looks like we'll have an official answer shortly! I (and two of my players) are excited!

I asked SKR and the Website Feedback folks so I'm sure the next time they get to FAQing that there will be some resolution...


Hmm.. Any news on this?

Shadow Lodge

Not yet - I'll shoot them a reply email, like they asked for.

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

20 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 7 people marked this as a favorite.

Hey there everyone,

This problem has been brought to our attention and we will look into it as soon as we are able. This may take a bit as we are neck deep in our current round of deadlines.

Hang in there, we will look into it.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Sczarni

A small question regarding overrun if anyone can answer. This is from Charge action:
"A charging character gets a +2 bonus on combat maneuver attack rolls made to bull rush an opponent."
Shouldn't charging character receive +2 to overrun CMB also? It doesn't say anything.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hey there everyone,

This problem has been brought to our attention and we will look into it as soon as we are able. This may take a bit as we are neck deep in our current round of deadlines.

Hang in there, we will look into it.

Wow, thanks Jason! I know that there is always something a-brewin' in the Paizo pipeline.

I thank you for your post and I know that you (the rules team) will get time to look at the rules impact of Charging Overruns when you've got some time. It may be a big thing, it may be a misreading of the text, but I think we were all a little confused by the "answered in the FAQ tag" that was attributed to the post.

Again, thank you and the other developers & designers for being so willing to talk to the public that enjoys your game system.

By all means, carry on.


Malag wrote:

A small question regarding overrun if anyone can answer. This is from Charge action:

"A charging character gets a +2 bonus on combat maneuver attack rolls made to bull rush an opponent."
Shouldn't charging character receive +2 to overrun CMB also? It doesn't say anything.

Good question....

Upon meditating on the issue I believe it should add +2, but it currently does not. If you would like to house rule that it should, that's fine, but unfortunately the rules currently do not support adding a +2 bonus on the overrun attempt.


Stynkk,

With your reading, how does it work if someone bull rushes after the overrun?

They Charge, Make their overrun attempt, succeed knocking their target prone, and move through the square to the other side. They then make a bull rush attempt, knocking the opponent back further than they were before?

Scenario:
1) F=Fighter T=Target X=Floor Spaces
2) Fighter Charges
3) Makes overrun attempt, successful and knocks T prone.
4) Now makes a bull rush attempt, and is successful enough to knock T 10 feet back.
1) FXXTXX
2) XXFTXX
3) XXXTFX
4) XTXXFX
Is that how you think it works as written currently?

(Yes, I realize the clarification is 99.9% likely to say "instead of the melee attack." I'm just curious.)


Tarantula wrote:
Stynkk, [...] Is that how you think it works as written currently?

Without any further guidance on the issue of how an Overrun works with Charge, that is the way I'd see it working since you could not attack/bullrush until the Overrun maneuver was completed.

Disclaimer going outside of the rules: Although I think an overrunning bullrush would be pretty cool. Essentially a "tackle" that knocks them back and prone (like a bullrush during a shield slam, but that anyone could do).

Shadow Lodge

Jason - you rock! (and coming from a geologist, that's high praise my friend!)

Sorry about sending emails - when I first mentioned it the customer service rep asked me to email back in a few days if it hadn't been covered, but I waited a bit longer. Like I've said before, I absolutely love the way Paizo stays in touch with the players/consumers - it's what decidedly sets you guys (and gals) apart from, well, everyone else in the industry!

Thanks for looking into it, and no (bull) rush! (that's another thread entirely)

Shadow Lodge

Just posting a "bump" since it's been a few months since Jason commented. I know with ARG and Ultimate Equipment and GenCon things might still be hectic, so no huge "rush"

(I know that pun was bad the last time I made it, but I'm allowed every 3 months, right? Guys?)


While we're waiting for the FAQ to be updated, I figured I'd argue a bit more about this.

The black raven wrote:

The attack made while using overrun is in fact the CMB attempt. "If your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD by 5 or more, you move through the target’s space and the target is knocked prone."

Since the attack is compared to the CMD and not to the AC of the target, it implies that the attack is the combat maneuver (using your CMB) and not a usual damage-dealing attack.

In fact, throughout the text describing overrun, the words maneuver, combat maneuver and attack are used in sequence to describe the same thing.

It avoids repeating the same word again and again, but it leads to some ambiguity and differing interpretations of the RAW, as seen in the above posts.

The description of Overrun is really poorly worded, especially compared to that of Bull-Rush.

I agree with this completely. If you read the entire text of Overrun, it becomes clear that the Overrun maneuver is indeed intended to be the attack that comes at the end of the charge. The book refers to combat maneuvers as attacks all the time. The text is just a little unclear on what type of attack is being referred to.

Quote:
When you attempt to overrun a target, it can choose to avoid you, allowing you to pass through its square without requiring an attack. If your target does not avoid you, make a combat maneuver check as normal. If your maneuver is successful, you move through the target's space. If your attack exceeds your opponent's CMD by 5 or more, you move through the target's space and the target is knocked prone.

The first sentence here suggests that moving through the opponent's square requires an attack in order accomplish. Obviously it's not referring to a standard melee attack, because that wouldn't allow you to move through the square. It just wouldn't make sense. It's referring to the overrun itself. The next sentence tells you to make a combat maneuver check. The next two sentences describe the two potential outcomes of succeeding. Regular success refers to the action as a maneuver, while exceeding the opponent's CMD by 5 or more refers to the action as an attack. Again, they're using "attack" to refer to the overrun maneuver.

Since the rules describe overrun as being an attack, it stands to reason that the overrun attempt was intended to be the attack that takes place at the end of the charge. Notice that the charge rules say "You only get to make one attack during a charge." Since an overrun is an attack, you would not be able to overrun and then attack again later during the charge (without Charge Through). The main point of using overrun with a charge is to allow you to move further than you would otherwise while moving through his square and beyond, instead of stopping in front of it.

When overrun says it can be used as "part of a charge," it doesn't say what part. Some of you have been assuming it comes during the movement part of the charge. I argue that it is the attack part. The fact that the "in place of the melee attack" clause was left out of the overrun description is still a bit troubling, but doesn't necessarily mean that overrun was intended to be an additional attack. The fact that the charge rules don't specify that overrun gets the +2 bonus from the charge is also troubling. However, I still think the rules support overrun replacing the attack at the end of the charge.


I'm definitely curious to see the end of this as it appears the question was raised about 10 months ago and I haven't been able to find an entry in the FAQ about it yet.

Leaving alone the question still presumably being worked on for a sec. Following the question of the mounted combatant, when overrunning, do you count the rider's size, or the mount's for the purposes of an overrun and determining what size opponent you can overrun? Also, when overrunning on a mount, are you overrunning, or is your mount, or both? If either of the last two are true, does this mean your mount actually requires Improved Overrun to avoid the AoO or do both the mount and the rider require it?

*Self-interested Cavalier, signing off. :)

Sovereign Court

dot


As my Battle Oracle/Sacred Shield Paladin/Phalanx Fighter character is specialising in playing havoc with enemy frontlines, having taken Charge Through, this would be a vital piece of information to clarify.

Against my true inner desires to think you can attack after an Overrun, I am going to stick with Overrun replaces the Standard Attack.

Charge Through allowing you to add an extra Free Overrun during your movement and once you get there, resolve the actual Charge action (Overrun, Attack, Invite For Coffee Have Some Lucerne Hammer First Sir, Etc).


wow, great discussion and lots of unanswered questions!

Ive got one.......

Spoiler:

Overrun
As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square. You can only overrun an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. If you do not have the Improved Overrun feat, or a similar ability, initiating an overrun provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. If your overrun attempt fails, you stop in the space directly in front of the opponent, or the nearest open space in front of the creature if there are other creatures occupying that space.

When you attempt to overrun a target, it can choose to avoid you, allowing you to pass through its square without requiring an attack. If your target does not avoid you, make a combat maneuver check as normal. If your maneuver is successful, you move through the target's space. If your attack exceeds your opponent's CMD by 5 or more, you move through the target's space and the target is knocked prone. If the target has more than two legs, add +2 to the DC of the combat maneuver attack roll for each additional leg it has.

Enemy is 10ft away from me, I have 30' movement. Can I use my move action to move 15' forward (overrunning him to move into the square behind him) then turn to use my attack action to hit the same enemy from behind? Obviously would need a few feats to avoid AOOs, but is it possible to do all that in a single round?


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Deylinarr wrote:

wow, great discussion and lots of unanswered questions!

Ive got one.......
** spoiler omitted **

Enemy is 10ft away from me, I have 30' movement. Can I use my move action to move 15' forward (overrunning him to move into the square behind him) then turn to use my attack action to hit the same enemy from behind? Obviously would need a few feats to avoid AOOs, but is it possible to do all that in a single round?

No. Overrun is a standard action taken as part of a move. You have no action left with which to make an attack.

The only way you can overrun in the same round and get an attack is POSSIBLY by combining it with a charge (though we're all waiting on clarification on how this works) OR with the Charge Through feat on a charge OR by succeeding on knocking your enemy prone w/Greater Overrun which gives you an AoO (MAYBE, again, clarification from the designers is necessary). However, in either case you will not be able to turn around and attack your overrun enemy as charge requires you to take the most direct path to your enemy which wouldn't include a turn around.

So using Overrun either way (standard action or part of charge) would not allow you to accomplish what you're asking. Course, if your enemy is knocked prone there's a reasonable chance you will get an AoO on your opponents turn, so you could still conceivably overrun and get an attack in the same round.

Sovereign Court

I can see two possibilities for Overrun.

1) You use a Charge to get more movement range and a +2 to the Overrun check; there's no actual attack other than a maneuver involved.

2) You can Overrun the target of a Charge attack, in addition to the attack. So you run up to someone, whack them, then run over them. This one's a bit sketchy given the AoO granted by the Greater Overrun feat.

You don't get to Overrun someone in the way of your Charge on someone else, since it says "you can attempt to overrun your target", so the target of the charge and the overrun must be the same.

You also don't get to Overrun them, then turn around and hit them with a charge from behind, since when you charge you need to whack them from the first square you reach where you can hit them; no hitting someone behind you.

The point of the Charge Through feat then would be to charge someone behind enemy lines.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
daeruin wrote:

While we're waiting for the FAQ to be updated, I figured I'd argue a bit more about this.

The black raven wrote:

The attack made while using overrun is in fact the CMB attempt. "If your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD by 5 or more, you move through the target’s space and the target is knocked prone."

Since the attack is compared to the CMD and not to the AC of the target, it implies that the attack is the combat maneuver (using your CMB) and not a usual damage-dealing attack.

In fact, throughout the text describing overrun, the words maneuver, combat maneuver and attack are used in sequence to describe the same thing.

It avoids repeating the same word again and again, but it leads to some ambiguity and differing interpretations of the RAW, as seen in the above posts.

The description of Overrun is really poorly worded, especially compared to that of Bull-Rush.

I agree with this completely. If you read the entire text of Overrun, it becomes clear that the Overrun maneuver is indeed intended to be the attack that comes at the end of the charge. The book refers to combat maneuvers as attacks all the time. The text is just a little unclear on what type of attack is being referred to.

Quote:
When you attempt to overrun a target, it can choose to avoid you, allowing you to pass through its square without requiring an attack. If your target does not avoid you, make a combat maneuver check as normal. If your maneuver is successful, you move through the target's space. If your attack exceeds your opponent's CMD by 5 or more, you move through the target's space and the target is knocked prone.
The first sentence here suggests that moving through the opponent's square requires an attack in order accomplish. Obviously it's not referring to a standard melee attack, because that wouldn't allow you to move through the square. It just wouldn't make sense. It's referring to the overrun itself. The next sentence tells you to make a combat maneuver check. The next two sentences...

The problem I have with the target of your charge also being the target of your overrun is this. Charge requires you take a direct line to your opponent and stop in the squire in front of him. Overrun requires you go through your opponents square. These 2 are mutually exclusive. This is why the initial interpretation my group had was essentially what Charge Through allows you to do. Target of your charge is separate from the charge of your overrun. Course with Charge Through in existence either this is NOT the case or someone made a completely useless Feat.

Honestly, I hope it's the 2nd or my overrunning barbarian will probably switch to Sunder; though, maybe Bullrush as I can do some stacking in certain situations for my alchemist buddy and create separation so I don't get splash damaged for 7hp at 1st level. But really, neither has the cool flavor of overrun and it'd have been the first time any of us had ever used it. 3 feats seems a steep price to get what I was hoping out of it while a Sunder barbarian is somewhat ridiculously powerful, but not particularly to my liking.

Shadow Lodge

I fear that this may have been "overlooked" (or, even, "overrun"? ...sorry, I like puns) in the last FAQ update...

Shadow Lodge

Still waiting on an answer to this one. Generally Paizo is pretty good about answering questions, but this one has been hanging out here for two years without being officially clarified...

And because I just have to put in my two cents:

Overrun was clearly designed to allow you to attempt to charge through a space occupied by an enemy. Perhaps Paizo screwed that up when they "created" the Pathfinder rules, but it's an easy fix. Changing the way overrun works to make it only affect the target of the charge is pointless, because without a feat such as ride by attack, you cannot move through the opponent's square (and thus, couln't overrun the target) as part of a charge. So simply clarify that it works the way it was intended to work, and acknowledge that "Charge Through" is a silly feat that lets you do what you already could.

Shadow Lodge

Just putting a "bump" on this thread, since there have been some new FAQs released from other books recently...

Shadow Lodge

I guess it's time for the monthly bump.

Shadow Lodge

>.>
<.<

...bump?


Bump for FAQ update


7 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
Mystic Lemur wrote:
simply clarify that it works the way it was intended to work, and acknowledge that "Charge Through" is a silly feat that lets you do what you already could.

This


7 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Question unclear.

Here's my clamor for the local FAQqin committee meeting to review this thread!

Don't make me FAQ every post in this thread! I'll do it man! I'm crazy!

For those unaware: the original post was tagged with an Answered in the FAQ but there is no answer there.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Dot. I'm curious how this ends up.


FAQ'D.

The Exchange

We've all been holding our collective breath for almost a year waiting for the FAQ. Lets not hope it doesn't take another year! D:


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Wow, I didn't check the date on this thread at first. Why is it taking SO long to get this question clarified? I have a cavalier build that I thought was cool and functional, but this thread has me questioning if I'm working the feats correctly.

If I'm understanding the more powerful interpretation in this thread, given this scenario:

[You on a mount]----[mook]----[target]----[end charge]

having the feats below (important parts bolded) would yield:

Charge Through on mook, for an unavoidable Overrun CM check that would trigger an AoO on a success (vs Greater Overrun) and not prevent the charge. Beating the CMD by 5+ also means the target is knocked prone (before or after the AoO?).

Continue to target, perform another unavoidable Overrun CM check vs the target, getting another AoO (if you have Combat Reflexes) vs target. Beating the CMD by 5+ also means the target is knocked prone (before or after the AoO?).

Perform your normal attack (vs prone?)

Ride By Attack to a safe distance away. This could include up to a 90 degree turn at any point in the charge, via Wheeling Charge, as long as each part of the move is at least 10 feet.

---

Granted, there has been an ENORMOUS amount of feats taken to get these results, so I'm wondering if this is indeed a valid interpretation.

Feat Reference:
• CHARGE THROUGH: With charge attack, may attempt to overrun creature in your way as a free action. Success: complete charge. Failure: stop before the intervening creature. (PFAPG 156)
• GREATER OVERRUN: +2 to Overrun. Stacks with Improved Overrun. Opponents knocked over provoke Attacks of Opportunity. (PFCR 125)
• IMPROVED OVERRUN: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing an overrun combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +2 bonus on checks made to overrrun a foe. In addition, increase the DC of performing an overrun combat maneuver against you by +2. Targets of your overrun attempt may not chose to avoid you. (PFCR 127-128)
• RIDE-BY ATTACK: When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge). Your total movement for the round can't exceed double your mounted speed. You and your mount do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent that you attack. (PFCR 132)
• SPIRITED CHARGE: When mounted and using the charge action, you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple damage with a lance). (PFCR 134)
• TRAMPLE: When you attempt to overrun an opponent while mounted, your target may not choose to avoid you. Your mount may make one hoof attack against any target you knock down, gaining the standard +4 bonus on attack rolls against prone targets. (PFCR 136)
• WHEELING CHARGE: When you are mounted and use the charge action, your mount can make one turn of up to 90 degrees as part of the move, as long as each part of the move is at least 10 feet. You may make an attack during any part of this move. Your total movement for the round can't exceed double your mounted speed. Allied creatures do not impede your charge, though you cannot attack from or end your move in an ally's space. (PFCh: CoG 50)

Shadow Lodge

You seem to have the right of it. Now we just need to get you hired by Paizo long enough to write a FAQ entry.


After re-reading my example, I see one mistake (and answered my question): the AoO happens ONLY if I beat the overrun CM check by 5+, so the target will be prone for the AoO. The revised procedure is as follows:

Charge Through on mook, for an unavoidable Overrun CM check that would not prevent the charge. Beating the CMD by 5+ also means the target is knocked prone and trigger an AoO (via Greater Overrun).

Continue to target, perform another unavoidable Overrun CM check vs the target. Beating the CMD by 5+ also means the target is knocked prone and trigger an AoO (via Greater Overrun, and you have Combat Reflexes or the like, or didn't take an AoO on the mook).

Perform your normal attack (vs prone if overrun check beat CMD+5)

Ride By Attack to a safe distance away. This could include up to a 90 degree turn at any point in the charge, via Wheeling Charge, as long as each part of the move is at least 10 feet.
--
I also think it's correct that you don't apply the charge bonus to the overrun check. So, if I run the numbers, a level 7 cavalier with 18 Str/14 Dex using a lance would look like this (all target are unmounted):

Overrun CMB = +7(BAB)+4(Str)+2(Dex)+4(feats) = +17
Attack = +7(BAB)+4(Str)+1(higher ground)+4(Cavalier's Charge)+4(prone) = +20
Damage = (1d8+4, +8 with Power Attack)x3 from lance. Power Attack+ Furious Focus = free damage that gets multiplied.
Crit = mini-nuke, mook is vaporized, charge target is likely also vaporized, or at best(worst?) starts whimpering for mama and is wondering if it is getting paid enough for this.

Note: this isn't factoring + from magic so feel free to add +1-2 to the above attack and damage rolls.

I don't see how the cav will ever miss except on a 1, and even the overrun will pretty much be an auto-success vs CMD+5. Now, the only consolation is that the charge replaces all the iteratives that a full attack would allow, but damn. Lances should get insta-shattered after dishing out that much damage...but even a greatsword would make for a world of hurt.


Hrm, yet another minor correction. The damage should be +6, +12 with PA, not +4/+8(FAQ says lance is two-handed even when wielded with one hand). Even more pain for the target, since it gets multiplied.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Gherrick wrote:

After re-reading my example, I see one mistake (and answered my question): the AoO happens ONLY if I beat the overrun CM check by 5+, so the target will be prone for the AoO. The revised procedure is as follows:

Actually, I believe the target will not be prone for the AoO. AoO occur before the end result of action that precipitates it. So you're essentially whacking him as he's starting to fall over. The same reason why you can't continually trip a poor prone mook and keep him on the ground forever when he tries to stand up.

Liberty's Edge

Thread Rez!

I'm sad this hasn't shown up in the FAQ yet. Every GM seems to have a different view of how overrun should work (particularly frustrating in PFS).

I have another overrun question to throw on the pile though. How far must I move before I can attempt an overrun? I have tried to charge a distant enemy several times by overrunning the mook in front of me, but haven't been allowed to because I hadn't moved 10 ft. before the overrun attempt. Is this correct? I can't seem to find answers on it anywhere.

Liberty's Edge

I'd kinda like to see this answered too.


We ran into trouble with overrun in our last game. I think I have it figured out now, and I emailed the player with the solution. I'll post the contents of that email here, in the hope that it helps to clear this issue up in the absence of a FAQ entry:

"I've figured out the confusing bits about overrun. Part of the problem is poor choice of wording in the book, which doesn't make it exactly clear what it does, and what it doesn't do. So here goes:

Overrun is a combat maneuver designed to allow you to move through an enemy's space. The whole purpose of it is to get to a position you couldn't otherwise reach. The movement is the point, the potential for knocking them down is just gravy. It's a standard action, and since you only get one standard action per round, you can't overrun multiple targets.

What makes it a bit confusing is that it's a standard action you take DURING your move, not before or after moving. So you can move, say, 10 feet, perform your overrun, and if you're successful, you get to complete your movement. Interestingly, it doesn't specify that the movement has to be in a straight line.

The alternative use, the "as part of a charge" part, is the part we were interpreting wrong. It doesn't mean you get to overrun one opponent to charge the one behind him. It simply means you can double-move in a straight line and make an overrun on the way. There is a feat in the Advanced Player's Guide (Charge Through), that allows you to overrun one guy to attack another, which tells me you can't do this normally.

So, you can move up to 30 feet, turning and zigzagging as you wish, and attempt to move through one opponent's space on the way as your standard action. Or, you can move up to 60 feet, in a straight line, and attempt to move through one opponent's space as your action during the charge, and your AC is penalized by -2 until your next turn (as per charging). Although it doesn't say so, I think you get a +2 to your Overrun attempt in this case (same as a charging Bull rush).

The way I see it, to use football analogies, a Bull Rush is what the defensive player does TO the ball carrier, driving them back, or out of bounds. The goal is to move the target. Overrun is what the offensive player does AS the ball carrier, charging through the defender or knocking him aside with a stiffarm. The goal is to get past the target."


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

It seems this topic got overlooked in the last FAQ that came out. I'd love to find out the answer to these questions concerning Overrun. Someone said that this topic was mistakenly listed as answered. Would that cause it to no longer be noticed by those that answer the FAQ requests? Maybe we need to start a new topic about these questions.

As for me, I'm of the opinion that, as written, in addition to an overrun attempt as part of a charge, you would get the attack at the end of a charge since it's not replaced like it is in the Bull Run description. I agree that it makes Overrun a bit overpowered. For added fun, add Greater Overrun, Spiked Destroyer, and Vicious Stomp into the mix on a charge...or especially when using Charge Through!

Anyway, I'm bumping this in hopes that it will finally get noticed by those up above and ruled on.

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