If he's not exactly a melee-heavy caster--which Jason has confirmed--then what is he supposed to be bringing to the table? Before we can really discuss how the class functions, we need to know what it's supposed to do mechanically.
Blend magic and Melee together. Which it is trying to do. It does need some work yet.
The magus should travel the land in search of worthy foes, who will fall before him. He is so deadly, in fact, that his enemies will go blind from overexposure to pure awesomeness. It matters not how many foes he faces. They are no match for his bodacity! Never before has a hero been so feared! And so loved.
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
Based on the thematics established in the current configuration it's pretty clear that Jason is going for secondary melee, secondary caster with an emphasis on self-buffing, control and evocation spells.
Further it's pretty clearly geared towards getting spell casting + melee in the same action (either standard or full round).
In terms of appearance it's basically a return of the armored elven fighter/magic user of 1e or the 2e Bladesinger. Longsword or rapier in one hand and spells in the other.
Importing 4e roles for the sake of explanation I think we are looking at an arcane/martial mobile striker. Stuff like invisibility and flight in his spell list means that he's attacking the flank instead of the center of the fight. Stuff like haste means that he can buff himself and his friends thus taking pressure off of the wizard/sorceror.
In sort he's a 5th character in a 5 man band. He's not as good as the base class specialists he's a more martial variation of the Bard with sword magic instead of musical abilities.
Based on the thematics established in the current configuration it's pretty clear that Jason is going for secondary melee, secondary caster with an emphasis on self-buffing, control and evocation spells.
Secondary melee, secondary caster? I don't even know how to process that. What is its primary role, then? Being bad at two things is not as good as being good at one thing.
Wizards: Primary caster.
Clerics: Primary caster, secondary melee.
Druids: Primary caster, secondary melee.
Sorcerers: Primary caster.
Fighters: Primary melee.
Barbarians: Primary melee.
Bards: Secondary caster, secondary melee, secondary support, secondary skillmonkey.
Paladins: Primary melee, tertiary caster.
Rogue: Primary skillmonkey, (strong) secondary melee.
Rangers: Primary melee, tertiary caster, secondary skillmonkey.
The bard is the only class that really comes close to what the magus does right now, and it has four things it can do.
You forgot the Monk (primary/secondary melee, secondary skill monkey) but I concede the monk has problems.
Adding the APG classes
Alchemist- Secondary caster (maybe even tertiary), Secondary Melee, Secondary Skill
Cavalier- Primary Melee
Summoner- Primary Melee (mainly because the Eidolon), Secondary Caster
Oracle- Primary Caster, Secondary Melee
Inquistor- Secondary Caster, Secondary Melee, Secondary Skill
Witch- Primary Caster
If we assume that the Magus is not going to be a Primary Caster and is unlikely to become a secondary skillmonkey it probably means buffing the melee aspect of the character so that it's competitive with the primary melee characters at least on a limited duration basis.
You could go full BAB but you'd need to nerf the spell list into the ground. You could stay 3/4 BAB and give it a good spell list and good class features.
The problem is the Alpha Magus has okay spells but a underwhelming set of class features.
Honestly I'd just say screw it and have it effectively replace both the EK PrC concept and the Duelist PrC concept. Give it precision damage and int based defense bonuses, the ability to function as skirmisher (some sort of pounce ability), and the ability to arcane strike like crazy.
Have the Magus hanging from the chandeliers while fighting with a rapier, etc.
I personally see the Magus as a strong secondary melee, strong secondary caster and secondary support. Hopefully his spell list will be one of the strongest (if not the strongest) of all the 3/4 casters. The class is not there yet, but I hope it will be in the final version.
The Magus is the old school Fighter/Magic User. He can wear heavy armor and cast arcane spells while in the thick of battle. He can buff himself and the party up without having to stand back and cast while the primary melee charges. He can charge up there with them and keep casting.
What he is not is a light or no armor caster with some melee skills. He also probably wouldn't be a very good Dex based melee fighter. You have to leave the Eldritch Knight with something.
Secondary support? What is secondary support? I don't even know how to process that. Just kidding.
The magus is exactly what I said earlier - a hero of might and magic. Whether you want to make a melee magus, a support magus, or a missile magus is entirely up to you.
Well, right now, the magus is more the camp follower who tries to be a hero of might and magic, but doesn't make the cut.
At the moment he cannot be a melee magus, a support magus, or a missile magus. The choice is entirely up to Paizo.
ProfessorCirno, have you played a game with a magus in it? Or are you shooting from the hip?
...Have...have you read these forums?
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I have. And you know what? I found out something interesting. Well, I think it's interesting. It's that the people who are hardest on the magus are the ones who haven't seen it in actual play. They fancy themselves mathematicians, so they crunch some numbers and start criticizing from there.
It's the folks who actually have one in their party that aren't complaining (well, not much). Isn't that funny? Isn't that interesting? The very people who have any grounds for complaint at all are the ones who complain the least.
So I want to see if you continue this trend or if you're a statistical outlier. It's for science.
Actually, most of the playtest reports I've seen lean toward the Magus being fairly naff as well.
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Actually, most of the playtest reports I've seen lean toward the Magus being fairly naff as well.
I literally have no idea what that means. Is naff good? Bad? Gay but proud? Some kind of sammich?
Back on topic, I don't think in this iteration it fills any roles that a person optimizing their party would want. It does, however, fill a role as a mechanic that fits a character concept. Right now, blending sword and sorcery is done only by the Bard and Summoner in terms of base classes. When your character concept doesn't sing or have a giant magical buddy, the Magus steps in.
I see it as the arcane version of the Inquisitor to some degree. The Inquisitor shares the same spell and BAB progression and the two classes will probably have a similar number of skills since the Magus has a high Int and the Inquisitor typically does not. While the Inquisitor might have characteristics of a secondary character in all three ares of its expertise I've found it very enjoyable to play and invaluable in a small party for its ability to buff, heal, smash, and skill.
I have. And you know what? I found out something interesting. Well, I think it's interesting. It's that the people who are hardest on the magus are the ones who haven't seen it in actual play. They fancy themselves mathematicians, so they crunch some numbers and start criticizing from there.
It's the folks who actually have one in their party that aren't complaining (well, not much). Isn't that funny? Isn't that interesting? The very people who have any grounds for complaint at all are the ones who complain the least.
So I want to see if you continue this trend or if you're a statistical outlier. It's for science.
Uhhhhhh
Clearly you have not, seeing as how the vast majority of playtests here have stated "Yeah no this isn't working"
ROLE OF THE MAGUS
Limited Primary Combatant/secondary combatant
For the first encounter of the day the Magus will look flashy. He'll spellstrike first and ask questions later. Afterwards he'll lay some fat beats while greasing the guy charging the cleric.
Annnnnnd, then he'll kind of suck. Until higher levels when he has a ton of spells to cast (just none as good as other wizards). In my playtest I went from playing a halfling wizard5/rogue1 to a human Magus. Not having create pit for the shield guy to bash peeps into was noticeable. I did go toe to toe with a large fire elemental and a monk, but it took me longer to drop my adversaries than it did for the other fighters.
In order for this class to act as a Limited Primary Combatant/secondary combatant spellstrike needs to be reworded so the Magus can melee attack the turn he cast the spell. Outside of a keen rapier it is always better to just make the touch attack since that will actually hit.
If the Magus is given a class feature that grants them reserve feat style abilities then they won't be encouraged to blow all their spells in the opening rounds of combat or risk losing them to Spell Combat failures at lower levels. This would round him out into a more Primary combatant.
The Magus does what the Inquisitor does just the Magus isn't as good as the Inquisitor yet. Arcane Accuracy would be good except it last 1 round. Who's going to blow a spell for a 1 time bonus? Take a 1st level spell, burn the spell or take true strike. +1 to hit vs +20 to hit and you ignore concealment. 2nd level burn a spell or bulls strength, +2 to hit 1 round vs +2 to hit and damage for 1 minute per level. 3rd haste or +3 to hit for a round. That to me is a problem, there is no way I'm burning haste spell for +3 to hit for one round.
The magus is great for the rogue. You aren't a wizard standing back casting spells. You are in there threatening and casting spells. While you whip off your spells you are providing flanking for the rogue. Tht's nice in a group considering the rogue would love to take the gang up feat. You have better chance of 3 players threatening to provide flanking. The Magus is great in 5 player game or 3 player game.
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The Magus has issues until it hits about level 8 then after that it can become very dangerous. By issues I mean you have to optimize it and have a good stat spread in order to be effective at anything. No matter what level it is the Magus burns through its spells at a faster rate then any class currently in the game and can probably empty its entire prepped spells in a single fight. Currently its Arcana is too weak at early levels to compensate for its 3/4 BaB and far too many of its abilities are swift actions (9 in total) when you can only use 1 a round. I'm pretty sure when they unveil it for a second round of playtesting it will be considered by most to be way overpowered....
I'm pretty sure when they unveil it for a second round of playtesting it will be considered by most to be way overpowered....+1. Quite likely.
If by "most," you guys mean "people who think the fighter is fine," then you're doubtless correct.
If by "most," you guys mean "people who think the fighter is fine," then you're doubtless correct.I'm pretty sure when they unveil it for a second round of playtesting it will be considered by most to be way overpowered....+1. Quite likely.
The fighter is fine, cleric,druid and wizard however needs some work. But the fighter is fine {needs more then 2 skill points though}
Lets talk a while 'bout the Magus
Whose intentions and purpose do plague us
Is he warrior or mage?
Or from each book, a page?
All I know is the smack talk's contagious.
The fighter is fine, cleric,druid and wizard however needs some work. But the fighter is fine {needs more then 2 skill points though}
Heh. Let me rephrase, then: "People who think the fighter is fine in comparison to the full casters."
The fighter is fine, cleric,druid and wizard however needs some work. But the fighter is fine {needs more then 2 skill points though}Heh. Let me rephrase, then: "People who think the fighter is fine in comparison to the full casters."
Again it really depends on the level. As a whole full casters can do more. But not till later on. The wizard is an easy fix, always has been and even as is a GM has a good amount of control over the wizard and what spells he has. The druid and the cleric however IMO need a total over haul.
I would rather fix what is broken then rewrite everything to match them. Sad thing is backward compatibility did limit what they could do. And rewriting those two classes just was not gonna happen.
Creative Director
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Bards: Secondary caster, secondary melee, secondary support, secondary skillmonkey.
I would actually say that the bard fills the role of primary support and primary skillmonky. He gets a LOT of skills—more than one might think on an initial glance due to his versatile performance and knowledge abilities. And many of his spells and most of his bardic performances do very well with groups—in fact, the more people you have in a group, the more powerful the bard's performances effectively get.
This message brought to you by the "Bards are cool too!" committee.
As for the magus... the whole point of a playtest is to see if something works. And the whole point of an initial build is to try out something new. We're learning a HELL of a lot about what folks want and how the magus can be further developed in this playtest. Those who worry that the magus as it currently stands represents how the magus will look next year when "Ultimate Magic" releases are already doing their job to let us know.
I would rather fix what is broken then rewrite everything to match them. Sad thing is backward compatibility did limit what they could do. And rewriting those two classes just was not gonna happen.
Violetta had a good suggestion for that: simply ban the wizard, cleric, and druid in favor of maybe the sorcerer, psion, and divine bard.
I think it's a bit hard to think only in categories of primary and secondary (or tertiary).
On a scale from 1 to 10, 1 being bad and 10 best.
A warrior would be 10 melee and 1 spells
A wizard would be 10 spells and 1.5 melee.
I think the magus will be like 6 melee and 6.5 spells. He will be better than half in both.
Please note I said "will be", I think it has been well agreed upon that the magus as he's now is a bit away from what he'll be at the end.
On a scale from 1 to 10, 1 being bad and 10 best.
A warrior would be 10 melee and 1 spells
A wizard would be 10 spells and 1.5 melee.
I don't think I understand your scale -- your numbers seem to be totally arbitrary to me. A Warrior gets full BAB but no bonus feats or fighter talents. If he's 10/10 anyway, why isn't the fighter a 20? And if full BAB is a 10, why isn't half BAB a 5?
at Kirth, yeah, sorry, I meant fighter not warrior. As he is supposed to be the best class in melee.
well 8/8 seems a bit over the top, but hey, mine was just an idea. And I suspect he will be slightly better in magic than in melee, because it's in the complete magic book.
Bards: Secondary caster, secondary melee, secondary support, secondary skillmonkey.
I would actually say that the bard fills the role of primary support and primary skillmonky. He gets a LOT of skills—more than one might think on an initial glance due to his versatile performance and knowledge abilities. And many of his spells and most of his bardic performances do very well with groups—in fact, the more people you have in a group, the more powerful the bard's performances effectively get.
This message brought to you by the "Bards are cool too!" committee.
As for the magus... the whole point of a playtest is to see if something works. And the whole point of an initial build is to try out something new. We're learning a HELL of a lot about what folks want and how the magus can be further developed in this playtest. Those who worry that the magus as it currently stands represents how the magus will look next year when "Ultimate Magic" releases are already doing their job to let us know.
I totally agree with your comments on the bard. You did such a great job on the bard it will be a long time before I will play anything other than a bard. Bardic knowledge and versatile performance are absolutely awesome.
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Why? At 8/8, he's 20% worse than both the fighter and wizard, though I'd claim losing 7-9th level spells is a sight more than 20%. Since he can fill either role, a 20% penalty is acceptable, but a 40%? I'll pass.
well 8/8 seems a bit over the top, but hey, mine was just an idea. And I suspect he will be slightly better in magic than in melee, because it's in the complete magic book.
Actually he's much better then that due to action economy. You really don't want to fight one at past 10th level as they rapidly outstrip other classes in terms of power if they go all out. Seriously a class that can toss 2 spells and 3 attacks in a single round is not something you want to fight...
The biggest issue the class has is point buy for stats as it just can't work due to MADS at for average games. This is a class currently only suited to 20-30 point buy for stats. The higher the stats the more it begins to shine. The weak capstone at 20 is an issue, but its biggest issue is the rate of spell depletion limiting it from reaching its full potential.
Bards: Secondary caster, secondary melee, secondary support, secondary skillmonkey.
I would actually say that the bard fills the role of primary support and primary skillmonky. He gets a LOT of skills—more than one might think on an initial glance due to his versatile performance and knowledge abilities. And many of his spells and most of his bardic performances do very well with groups—in fact, the more people you have in a group, the more powerful the bard's performances effectively get.
This message brought to you by the "Bards are cool too!" committee.
I actually am beginning to think, from the viewpoint of the magus now, that some stuff may be better as feats that bards & eldritch knights could take.
Violetta had a good suggestion for that: simply ban the wizard, cleric, and druid in favor of maybe the sorcerer, psion, and divine bard.
The psion? That's your idea of a balanced class?
This is easy to answer in 2 words. Just like every other class in the game- the Magus is supposed to: Be Fun. or Be Cool.
The problem is that different people think different things about ambiguous terms like cool or fun. Some people think that doing damage is cool or fun or both. Others think the same of utility. Others think that a class that presents a certain image is what they want regardless of their game function.
So I have a question about the Magus. I haven't played one yet, so I can't really say anything about it other than "It looks like it's not very viable on paper", but that doesn't mean much.
My main question is this. Assuming the Magus becomes a viable class from 1 to 20, and isn't completely overpowered, what's the point of having the Eldritch Knight PrC? This class seems to be simply replacing a prestige class for no real reason. Am I wrong? (that's not a challenge, I really want to know if I'm just totally off the mark.) I just can't think of a reason why this class exists. It simply seems like a slightly buffed Bard to replace Eldritch Knight, and maybe Dragon Disciple too.
Violetta had a good suggestion for that: simply ban the wizard, cleric, and druid in favor of maybe the sorcerer, psion, and divine bard.The psion? That's your idea of a balanced class?
Compared to wizards, clerics, and druids? Yes.
Compared to wizards, clerics, and druids? Yes.Violetta had a good suggestion for that: simply ban the wizard, cleric, and druid in favor of maybe the sorcerer, psion, and divine bard.The psion? That's your idea of a balanced class?
Yeah. The Thrall power is totally balanced. Completely.
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So I have a question about the Magus. I haven't played one yet, so I can't really say anything about it other than "It looks like it's not very viable on paper", but that doesn't mean much.
My main question is this. Assuming the Magus becomes a viable class from 1 to 20, and isn't completely overpowered, what's the point of having the Eldritch Knight PrC? This class seems to be simply replacing a prestige class for no real reason. Am I wrong? (that's not a challenge, I really want to know if I'm just totally off the mark.) I just can't think of a reason why this class exists. It simply seems like a slightly buffed Bard to replace Eldritch Knight, and maybe Dragon Disciple too.
Eldritch Knight is a horrible thing to compare something to since its kind of horrible. The Holy Vindicator does for Clerics what the ElK really should have done for arcane casters but didn't.
Someone did a nice 1-20 comparison of ElK and Magus with the addition of some new hypothetical touch spells so that all of the Magus abilities work at every spell level. They came out pretty balanced. The next and final iterations of the Magus will probably be more powerful than what we have here so the Magus will edge out the ElK. But I usupect there will be PrC's and such in Ultimate Magic that make the ElK look like a piss poor cousin of cool, anyway.
So I have a question about the Magus. I haven't played one yet, so I can't really say anything about it other than "It looks like it's not very viable on paper", but that doesn't mean much.
My main question is this. Assuming the Magus becomes a viable class from 1 to 20, and isn't completely overpowered, what's the point of having the Eldritch Knight PrC? This class seems to be simply replacing a prestige class for no real reason. Am I wrong? (that's not a challenge, I really want to know if I'm just totally off the mark.) I just can't think of a reason why this class exists. It simply seems like a slightly buffed Bard to replace Eldritch Knight, and maybe Dragon Disciple too.
Eldritch Knight is a horrible thing to compare something to since its kind of horrible. The Holy Vindicator does for Clerics what the ElK really should have done for arcane casters but didn't.
Someone did a nice 1-20 comparison of ElK and Magus with the addition of some new hypothetical touch spells so that all of the Magus abilities work at every spell level. They came out pretty balanced. The next and final iterations of the Magus will probably be more powerful than what we have here so the Magus will edge out the ElK. But I usupect there will be PrC's and such in Ultimate Magic that make the ElK look like a piss poor cousin of cool, anyway.
Okay, I gotcha. Kinda too bad though. I thought the ElK had potential. Probably would have been better if it didn't have such high casting requirements (to keep BAB higher instead of having to take 5 levels of wizard) and allowed one to continue to gain specialist/Bloodline powers as they leveled. Then the ElK would have been a primary Melee with some nifty spell backup. But alas, I'm tangenting.
One thing I'd like to see is maybe something akin to specialist schools to augment the Magus's spell power. Personally, I just like the Conjuerer's 8th level teleporting ability. Even with 3/4 BAB, it's make the Magus more than a competent skirmisher, even at low levels (assuming the ability worked early on). But again, I haven't playtested it yet, so I may be completely off the mark. I just ran an ElK that did that, and she was totally awesome.