The problem with the class isn't that it is like the Duskblade-the problem is that it is WORSE than the Duskblade. It needs full BAB, at the very least.
And guys, sometimes people are WRONG. Like, as in, they aren't right. Not everyone is a winner. Sorry Zombie, but I'm referring to you. If the majority of the board is calling you out, you're probably wrong.
Why is it that you think it needs Full BaB. More over, where have i said that it doesn't. I have, to my knowledge made no comment on the subject of if the class should be Full BaB.
What i have done is point out that it can, for a large portion of the early game far more damage than the rogue, with a better hit chance and AC to boot. For that matter, it can all but keeps pace with the fighter through a chunk of the early game.
Now, that was all based on really very quick, back of a f&~ packet style calculations and it is entirely possible that i have it wrong, but no one has provided specific evidence to show that it is wrong yet.
Interesting that almost all the numbers I have run have shown differently. The only way I have even seen it come close to 50 DPR by level 10 consistently (which every other class can do without spending significant resources) is to cast haste, use power attack and arcane strike, have at least 16 str at lvl 1, and wield a 1 handed weapon in two hands. It can do high burst damage occasionally, in the 70-80 damage range to a single target, if you spend its valuable spell slots on it, but even then it is only being brought up to the level of the fighter, and it loses any bennefit it has from 2 handing the weapon. Other classes by this level can be hitting the 70s, including some bard builds. Some of the really twinked builds can come close to 100 in the DPR Olympics, using the standard array and no single combat buffs. This class strives to be mediocre in the damage department.
The Magus does *very* well in the DPR department; not as consistently good as a Fighter - but the Magus novas nicely to beyond the Fighter's DPR. In a 1v1, both parties rested and prepared for a duel, odds are the Magus will beat the Fighter. So say the numbers. If you want to refute it, bring numbers.
The Magus does *very* well in the DPR department; not as consistently good as a Fighter - but the Magus novas nicely to beyond the Fighter's DPR. In a 1v1, both parties rested and prepared for a duel, odds are the Magus will beat the Fighter. So say the numbers. If you want to refute it, bring numbers.
Treantmont's Bard build hit 70. Most of the fighter builds are in the high 50s, but some of them hit the 80s. I have yet to see a magus who can break 50 without using the method I described, which includes a spell that is not allowed in the DPR Olympics and he only gets at most 4 times/day, if he devotes his entire 3rd level spell selection to it. Even the Monk builds crush him when you compare resources used.
It needs full bab because it's a FIGHTER/mage. All other front line classes have full bab. Fighter, ranger, barbarian, paladin. Without it, he's delegated to 2nd rank warrior status. He doesn't fit here either. Rogues get sneak attack and a ton of skills, bards get buffs and skills, all sorts of perform abilities, clerics and druids 9th level spells, plate armor, wild shape, etc. The magus gets - what, exactly? A bunch of situational abilities with penalties. Super Genius Games Archon is what the magus should be, as is he'll end up a henchman's b@*~!.
Who says it is a front line class? Who says it is a Fighter/Mage?
What I actually see down on the 'paper' is med-BaB/D8 class, with an array of spells and powers that benifit it moving around(Expedius retreat, feather fall, jump, mount, spider climb, fly ect.), tieing up enemies(shield, reduce person, colour spray, obscuring mist, Bears endurance, Blur, cats grace, darkness, web ect.)
Many of these have non-combat application.
Oh, and the class has a nasty sting in the tail, in the form of Shocking grasp, which scales faster than sneak attack, and hits more often.
Yet, despite no actual statement that I am aware of that this class is meant to be doing the same job as the fighter, and it having a set up that very clearly lables it as something much more like a rogue than a full blown Fighter that can cast spells, you think it fails, because it doesn't have Full BaB?
Interesting that almost all the numbers I have run have shown differently. The only way I have even seen it come close to 50 DPR by level 10 consistently (which every other class can do without spending significant resources) is to cast haste, use power attack and arcane strike, have at least 16 str at lvl 1, and wield a 1 handed weapon in two hands. It can do high burst damage occasionally, in the 70-80 damage range to a single target, if you spend its valuable spell slots on it, but even then it is only being brought up to the level of the fighter, and it loses any bennefit it has from 2 handing the weapon. Other classes by this level can be hitting the 70s, including some bard builds. Some of the really twinked builds can come close to 100 in the DPR Olympics, using the standard array and no single combat buffs. This class strives to be mediocre in the damage department.The problem with the class isn't that it is like the Duskblade-the problem is that it is WORSE than the Duskblade. It needs full BAB, at the very least.
And guys, sometimes people are WRONG. Like, as in, they aren't right. Not everyone is a winner. Sorry Zombie, but I'm referring to you. If the majority of the board is calling you out, you're probably wrong.
Why is it that you think it needs Full BaB. More over, where have i said that it doesn't. I have, to my knowledge made no comment on the subject of if the class should be Full BaB.
What i have done is point out that it can, for a large portion of the early game far more damage than the rogue, with a better hit chance and AC to boot. For that matter, it can all but keeps pace with the fighter through a chunk of the early game.
Now, that was all based on really very quick, back of a f&~ packet style calculations and it is entirely possible that i have it wrong, but no one has provided specific evidence to show that it is wrong yet.
You might well be right. But I did specifically mention that i was dealing with the early game.
Now, my hope is that it isn't going to need top win the damage game eventurally. My hope is that we will see some magus specific spells which are touch attack/weapon enchantment debuffs, that are truely crippling. It is what would make most sense for the class as it stands.
Of course, one could argue that exactly because he is supposed to be a fighter/mage -as in balanced between the two extremes- and not a fighter/mage or fighter/mage, it should not be that strange or out-of-place for the Magus to have medium BAB and d8 hit dice along with his 6 spell levels.
I am rather content with the way he is concerning base attack, hit dice and spell levels as I pictured him as a more or less 50/50 class as soon as I read his description.
Just saying... :-)
Umm...because that is what we were promised with the magus....
Who says it is a Fighter/Mage?
Sorry, let me rephrase that point.
What is a 'fighter/mage'? And who said that your take on what one is, is what the Magus sets out to be. I think it is pretty clear that this magus does not set out to be a front line fighter.
Umm...because that is what we were promised with the magus....
Who says it is a Fighter/Mage?
Sorry, let me rephrase that point.
What is a 'fighter/mage'? And who said that your take on what one is, is what the Magus sets out to be. I think it is pretty clear that this magus does not set out to be a front line fighter.
What seems clear is that this Magus does not set out to be anything.
People should stop looking to the Magus for wish-fulfillment. The class is what it is - a framework for us to realize our character concepts.
Oh Mighty Magus!
Bestow upon me my dreams!
*sigh* You're just a frame.
People should stop looking to the Magus for wish-fulfillment. The class is what it is - a framework for us to realize our character concepts.
So long as your character concept is "Cannot do anything well"
You're making the soulknife argument. Sure, the soulknife was the worst class in 3.5, but look at how flavorful it is!
And yet nobody played it.
It seems being flavorful isn't as important as having fun.
Spell combat is suffering from a sort of "PR problem". The mechanic is balanced and even usable in certain situations, but the expectations about it distort the debate about its usefulness.
NO ONE should be going out of their way to cast while in melee. The RAW punishes you for doing so. Its meant to reinforce the idea that casters need meat shields between them and the opposition. Having combat casting if you a cleric or some such just gives you better odds when pulling out of melee is more work that its worth.
Along comes the magus who has the OPTION to cast while attacking in melee. Its still not a GOOD IDEA in a lot of cases. Its a gambit, one that gets better with time. But then there is cacophony of cries about how its BORKEDWEAKSAUCE.
What the magus might need is some more stabracadabra tricks that do work as its "smite/flurry/combatstyle/reason-for-being-in-melee". The magus arcana do this, but only once per day, and sort of slow to building. Arcane weapon is a good contender as its an all day boost to your hit and damage, and has some tricking out options, but its at level 4.
Spellstrike could be expanded to have more of a use at low levels giving the main focus as the magus' combat trick. What if it sort of combined with the arcane strike feat with spell storing? You store a spell in your weapon, and get the effects of arcane strike without having to take the feat, and the weapon gets the energy descriptor (like electricity damage for stored shocking grasp). Then when the magus decides to fire off the touch spell, it gets used. The magus could then put another spell into the weapon (either with an empty prepares slot or maybe even a prepared one that is applicable).
Bottom line is it works essentially the same and provides the effects of a feat that we know any magus in their right mind is going to take anyway along with combat casting.
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Umm to me, from making NPC at level 6, 8, 12 and 15...after level 8, this class kicks the living snot out of the duskblade. Before level 8 the duskblade wins hands down. I think people are severly underestimating how good getting an extra action actually is. Like it's could easily get broken good. In anycase, I though this class was suppose to not suck at the early levels and quite frankly I would rather play a fighter 1/wizard x then this class in the early stages...and playing the fighter 1/wizard x SUCKED.The problem with the class isn't that it is like the Duskblade-the problem is that it is WORSE than the Duskblade. It needs full BAB, at the very least.
And guys, sometimes people are WRONG. Like, as in, they aren't right. Not everyone is a winner. Sorry Zombie, but I'm referring to you. If the majority of the board is calling you out, you're probably wrong.
Dude, are you serious?
The Duskblade:
d10 HD (I think)
Full BAB
Medium Armor
Channels Spells in the same round he attacks
Power Attacking with a 2 handed weapon.
I'm pretty sure he'll beat the magus on every level.
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Umm to me, from making NPC at level 6, 8, 12 and 15...after level 8, this class kicks the living snot out of the duskblade. Before level 8 the duskblade wins hands down. I think people are severly underestimating how good getting an extra action actually is. Like it's could easily get broken good. In anycase, I though this class was suppose to not suck at the early levels and quite frankly I would rather play a fighter 1/wizard x then this class in the early stages...and playing the fighter 1/wizard x SUCKED.The problem with the class isn't that it is like the Duskblade-the problem is that it is WORSE than the Duskblade. It needs full BAB, at the very least.
And guys, sometimes people are WRONG. Like, as in, they aren't right. Not everyone is a winner. Sorry Zombie, but I'm referring to you. If the majority of the board is calling you out, you're probably wrong.
Dude, are you serious?
The Duskblade:
d10 HD (I think)
Full BAB
Medium Armor
Channels Spells in the same round he attacks
Power Attacking with a 2 handed weapon.I'm pretty sure he'll beat the magus on every level.
With a weak spell list and VERY limited spell known from the spell list. Seriously, if you think that BAB and hit points win, barbarian wins all. And that clearly ain't so.
People should stop looking to the Magus for wish-fulfillment. The class is what it is - a framework for us to realize our character concepts.
So long as your character concept is "Cannot do anything well"
You're making the soulknife argument. Sure, the soulknife was the worst class in 3.5, but look at how flavorful it is!
And yet nobody played it.
It seems being flavorful isn't as important as having fun.
It can hit more often than most medium BAB.
It can move quickly around the battle field.
It can deploy debuffs and some battle field control.
It can survive operating away from its colligues better than most.
All those things mean that is can operate as a fast responder.
It can hit more often than most medium BAB.
In Clown World, maybe.
It can move quickly around the battle field.
Uh, it doesn't get any bonuses to movement speed that I saw?
It can deploy debuffs and some battle field control.
If it does it so poorly enemies can ignore it, then no, it cannot deploy them.
It can survive operating away from its colligues better than most.
Not really.
With a weak spell list and VERY limited spell known from the spell list. Seriously, if you think that BAB and hit points win, barbarian wins all. And that clearly ain't so.
Well, thanks to advanced learning, you can cherrypick other spells. In effect, the spell list is the same size as duskblade + all spells eligible for cherrypicking.
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Well, thanks to advanced learning, you can cherrypick other spells. In effect, the spell list is the same size as duskblade + all spells eligible for cherrypicking.
With a weak spell list and VERY limited spell known from the spell list. Seriously, if you think that BAB and hit points win, barbarian wins all. And that clearly ain't so.
So your cheating by giving the warmage ability to the duskblade then.
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For what it's worth I do not believe it needs a full BAB, just a few abilities that increases his chances to hit.
And I say this being a big fan of Medium BAB partial caster classes and having successfully used Psychic Warriors, Inquisitors, Vanguards and Alchemists as front liners (both as PC's and NPC's).
The Magus should be able to exploit it's actions better than most classes, should always have something to do with it's swift, move and standard on an given turn on which he wants to hit hard. Manipulating resourced better than regular casters by getting around the action economy "laws" in order to hit as hard as any other melee combatant (instead of using those resources and still being not as good at fighting).
This can be done in many ways, using move actions to burn spell slots to increase damage, letting arcane strike increase their to hit as well as damage, making them count as having full BAB when delivering a spell through their spellstrike.
That;s all I wanted to say.
3/4ths BAB isn't the problem, the overall attack bonus is the problem.
Psychic Warrior had 3/4ths BAB and did fantastic. Why? He had offensive buffs.
The Magus on the other hand has pretty much zero offensive buffs.
He also only has half his intended spell list. That's what Mr. Fishy heard more magus touch spells in the Ultimate Magic.
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He also only has half his intended spell list. That's what Mr. Fishy heard more magus touch spells in the Ultimate Magic.
Indeed!
There are a few others that already exist that should probably be on their list as well. The most specific one being Chill Touch, the ability to use it multiple times and it's potential for fudging around with other character's ability scores makes it a wise choice for a Magus.
Hopefully, they'll also have some good Cantrips for use with Spell Strike.
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That's all well and good, but we were told that Oracles would get more elemental spells in the APG, and that turned out not to be true. Waves oracles still have, what, one single spell that they can use some of their revelations with? Even after the issue was raised in the playtest and we were assured there'd be more cold spells in the book?
It's a valid issue to raise and handwaving it does a disservice to everyone who will ever buy Ultimate Magic.
Maybe they'll even make Spellstrike have a point since, right now, the entire purpose is to give your spell an even worse chance of going off.
Besides that, more touch spells won't fix the attack problem Magus has. He needs more offensive buffs.
So your cheating by giving the warmage ability to the duskblade then.Well, thanks to advanced learning, you can cherrypick other spells. In effect, the spell list is the same size as duskblade + all spells eligible for cherrypicking.
With a weak spell list and VERY limited spell known from the spell list. Seriously, if you think that BAB and hit points win, barbarian wins all. And that clearly ain't so.
Heh. Somehow I misremembered the duskblade as having that ability. It's still possible, if you want, to broaden the duskblade's spell list through other means; Arcane Disciple can get you domain spells, while it's possible for a Duskblade to become a Mage of the Arcane Order.
Umm to me, from making NPC at level 6, 8, 12 and 15...after level 8, this class kicks the living snot out of the duskblade. Before level 8 the duskblade wins hands down. I think people are severly underestimating how good getting an extra action actually is. Like it's could easily get broken good. In anycase, I though this class was suppose to not suck at the early levels and quite frankly I would rather play a fighter 1/wizard x then this class in the early stages...and playing the fighter 1/wizard x SUCKED.
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With a weak spell list and VERY limited spell known from the spell list. Seriously, if you think that BAB and hit points win, barbarian wins all. And that clearly ain't so.
0th level:
acid splash, disrupt undead, touch of fatigue, ray of frost+ for free Arcanetunement adds detect magic, flare, ghost sound, dancing light, and read magic.
1st:
Bigby's tripping hands, Blade of Blood,burning hands, cause fear, chill touch, color spray, Kelgore's fire bolt, Deflect Lesser, magic weapon, obscuring mist, ray of enfeeblement, resist energy, rouse, shocking grasp, Truse Strike, Swift expendious retreat.
Now, that isn't a weak list at lowest levels.
Now 2nd level:
Animalistic power (1 rd/lv version of bull str'+ Cat's grace + Bear's endurance at same time), Bear's endurance, Cat's grace, Bull's Str, Bibgy's striking fist, darkvision, Deflect, Dimension hop, ghoul touch, Acid arrow, Scorching ray, see invisibility, seeking ray, spider climb, stretch weapon, sure strike, Swift versions Invisibility or fly, and touch of idiocy
3rd level:
Crown spells (protect, might, etc)
Dispelling touch, dispel magic, doom scarabs, energy aergis, Protect vs energy, energy surge, G. M. W, Halt, Keen edge, Ray of exhaustion, Regroup, and vamparic touch.
Now it has better touch spells.
Heck it can dispel while hitting you with its Arcane channeling + Dispelling touch (if Magus buffs) by 10th level.
Otherwise Duskblade has Shocking grasp, Touch of idocy, Touch of fatigue, Ghoul touch, Doom scarabs, or Vamparic touch.
If he wants to weaken him first: Ray of exhaustion, Ray of enfeeblement, Color spray, etc.
Heck Blade of Blood adds +3d6 damage as a swift action, stack with arcane channel Shocking grasp=
3d6 +5d6 (max caster 5)=+8d8 in one round.
It can hit more often than most medium BAB.In Clown World, maybe.
It can move quickly around the battle field.Uh, it doesn't get any bonuses to movement speed that I saw?
It can deploy debuffs and some battle field control.If it does it so poorly enemies can ignore it, then no, it cannot deploy them.
It can survive operating away from its colligues better than most.Not really.
It gets spells that enable it to move around the battlefield. that's maneuverability. It just doesn't have to go thru intervening squares like a high move has to.
As soon as the battlefield control spells hit the field, the enemy has to take them into account. That's not an argument.
No comment on TH rolls, although the prevalence of touch attack spells with a Medium BAB is pretty solid.
==Aelryinth
I'm bumping this thread.
That's all well and good, but we were told that Oracles would get more elemental spells in the APG, and that turned out not to be true. Waves oracles still have, what, one single spell that they can use some of their revelations with? Even after the issue was raised in the playtest and we were assured there'd be more cold spells in the book?
It's a valid issue to raise and handwaving it does a disservice to everyone who will ever buy Ultimate Magic.
And again. Just so that everybody sees it.
The thing is, K isn't even being remotely dramatic about this class. It literally doesn't do anything it should do at all well. I'd MUCH rather play a bard as my fighter/mage.
So, here's the question: If the magus is getting a -4 to hit for breaking economy of actions, what are rangers, druids, paladins, cavaliers, nature oracles and, most importantly summoners getting? Most of those classes have pets who will be better combatants than the Magus, and, aside from the summoner, their pets all have separate hit point pools.
So, here's the question: If the magus is getting a -4 to hit for breaking economy of actions, what are rangers, druids, paladins, cavaliers, nature oracles and, most importantly summoners getting? Most of those classes have pets who will be better combatants than the Magus, and, aside from the summoner, their pets all have separate hit point pools.
GISHES NEED TO SUFFER BECAUSE ONLY POWERGAMERS WANT TO PLAY THEM
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Please stop posting in a combative and rude tone. It is not hard to word complaints and concerns in a mature and civil manner. Being mature and civil in your posting has the happy side effect that people reading your posts are more likely to consider your well worded opinion rather than dismissing everything you say as rude and uncivil rants.
In other words I beg those posting here to stop shooting themselves in their feet.
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But Jess, they dance so wonderfully!
I like to think of these kind of arguments on messageboards as little operas or plays for my enjoyment. I don't for an instant take any of the actors seriously, enjoy the show, and keep at my bucket of popcorn.
When someone brings attention to the arguments themselves it breaks the 4th wall for me and makes my soda warm.
Pieces of eight! Pieces of eight!