I agree with that as well, I have toyed with the idea of "energy strike" type of ablity for a while. I wouldn't have minded seeing something liek that
I really like Kortz's idea also. It seems to tie it in with the feel and play style of the core classes like rogue and cleric. It makes Spellstrike actually desirable (I feel it is useless now).
Also, I know in another thread people are upset with the amount of spells slots given to Magus. Incorporating Kortz's idea would allow Jason to take a few spell slots away IMO.
Also, I think that storing spells in your weapon must be a Magus Arcana option or even an early ability starting early, like 1st or 2nd. Maybe just one touch spell level per Magus level. And have it hit if you roll high enough to make a touch attack even if you miss the melee attack.
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There are some good ideas in this thread about how to adjust the current version of Spellstrike, but I think the end result needs to be much simpler.
Think of it from the perspective of a new or new-ish player to the game -- and these are the most important players for the future of Pathfinder. The best of the base classes have mechanics that pop right out at you and are easy to understand. Summoner: Eidolon. Alchmeist: bombs and mutagens. Inquisitor: Judgement.
Spellstrike as is just does not cut it. And the Magus should not be just an okay base class; it's appeal should be immediate and easy to grasp.
Giving the Magus a progressive d6 magical attack and letting the player choose which elemental forms of it to take at which level is something that will grasp the imagination right away.
Delivering spells with weapons and Spell Combat are abilities that should be worked into the class, but the Magus needs a mechanic the value of which is immediate and obvious.
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The base classes are a little more complex than the core classes, but the good ones have a simple mechanic at their core that is easily grasped.
Flip to the Alchemist table in the APG and you see "bomb 1d6" and "mutagen" at first level. Bomb is self-explanatory, and you can scan "mutagen" and see that it's a buff. Likewise Challenge and Mount (heh) with the Cavalier, Judgment for the Inquisitor, Create a Pet for Summoner, Hex for Witch.
So you're a newish or casual player and you pick up Ultimate Magic and the Magus is right up front. You see Spellstrike and that sounds cool, so you read the description and it turns out that it's two standard actions to deliver a touch spell with a weapon. Underwhelming. So what's Spell Combat about? Weapon in one hand, spell in the other. So far so good. But you keep reading and it's -4 this and -2 that and make a concentration check, etc. None of that sounds fun for a non-rules-junkie. And trying to fix Spellstrike with "lose energy-type spell x of level y for + zd6 damage doesn't help much either.
Give the Magus a simple mechanic at its core to hang it's Wizard hat (or helm) on. Let's call it Magus Strike for lack of a better name. 3 times a day + your INT modifier, your melee attack does 1d6 extra magical damage. This damage increases by 1d6 every odd level. At every even level you add one element type of your choice to the kinds of magical damage that Magus Strike can inflict.
1st Magus strike (1d6)
2nd First element
3rd Magus strike (2d6)
4th Second element... etc.
So Hrori Half-Ulfen, a Magus from the Land of the Linnorn Kings takes Frost as his first element choice, which is great while travelling in Golarion. But in his homeland a lot of creatures have cold resistance, so at level 4 he takes Flame as his second element. Now he can choose between using frost, flame, or just plain magical damage with his melee attacks 3+INT mod a day.
Seems like this would be a lot more attractive to a player who is wavering between Pathfinder and something else.
The way Spellstrike works now doesn't tally with what it really should do. It really should let you replace the Touch Attack in the spell with a Melee attack including weapon damage. While it steps on Combat Spells toes a bit it makes a clear difference between a Magus attacking with touch spells, a Magus throwing Daze with an attack using Combat Spell.
I seriously thought that was how it worked on the first few read thoughts. Cast Touch spell, smack the with your blade in and discharge in the same turn. Not cast to charge 1st round, then melee attack on 2nd round.
I think Spellstrike -- with a different name maybe -- needs to be more explicitly in line with abilities like sneak attack and channel energy.
Maybe 3 times a day +INT modifier you add 1d6 of magical damage to a melee attack. At every odd level it goes up a d6.
At first level the damage is arcane. At every even level you gain the ability to choose to give that arcane damage an elemental form.
For example:
1st -- 1d6 (Arcane)
2nd -- (Fire)
3rd -- 2d6
4th -- (Electricity)
5th -- 3d6
6th -- (Acid)
7th -- 4d6
8th -- (Frost)
9th -- 5d6Maybe make an Arcana that gives you burst damage on crits.
And if you're still in love with weapons delivering spells, just make a spell-storing Arcana at a certain level.
And this.. is an interesting idea. Hmm..
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I agree, but limited uses is a must, lest it overshadow the rogue. Perhaps also making it every 3rd level after first?
I agree, but limited uses is a must, lest it overshadow the rogue. Perhaps also making it every 3rd level after first?I think Spellstrike -- with a different name maybe -- needs to be more explicitly in line with abilities like sneak attack and channel energy.
Maybe 3 times a day +INT modifier you add 1d6 of magical damage to a melee attack. At every odd level it goes up a d6.
At first level the damage is arcane. At every even level you gain the ability to choose to give that arcane damage an elemental form.
For example:
1st -- 1d6 (Arcane)
2nd -- (Fire)
3rd -- 2d6
4th -- (Electricity)
5th -- 3d6
6th -- (Acid)
7th -- 4d6
8th -- (Frost)
9th -- 5d6Maybe make an Arcana that gives you burst damage on crits.
And if you're still in love with weapons delivering spells, just make a spell-storing Arcana at a certain level.
And this.. is an interesting idea. Hmm..
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Just make it a spell sacrificing ability to use. Also I would do the elements differently:
1 element of choice at first level, with another choice at level 2, 4, and 6 with force at 8th and "magic energy" at 10th. This way you don't get the "best" energy type right off the bat (since there is fire resistance but not "arcane resistance" or "force resistance").
How about the following instead. It tries to keep to the original intent, and is much more usable:
Spellstrike (Su): Whenever a magus strikes a target with his weapon and the target takes damage from it, he can immediately choose to cast a spell on the target as a free action. The spell must be from the magus spell list, have a range of touch, and have a casting time of 1 standard action or less.
That's a significant power boost--that way you never lose the spell and it can be combined with itself for every attack that hits (and with Spell Combat, and with a Swift action Quickened spell).
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Personally, I'd have Spellstrike be something more akin to:
Spellstrike (Su): As a standard action, you can sacrifice a prepared spell and make a single melee attack at your highest base attack bonus. This attack gains a bonus to the attack roll equal to the level of the spell sacrificed. On a hit, the attack deals +1d6 damage per level of the spell sacrificed. At 6th, 12th and 18th level, add +1d6 to the bonus damage dealt, regardless of the level of the spell used.
If the spell sacrificed has an energy type, the bonus damage is of the same energy type, otherwise it is untyped. If the attack is a critical hit, multiply the weapon's damage as normal, but you only multiply the spell's damage by x2, regardless of the critical multiplier of the weapon used.
This is good, I like this better than 3 times a day, Using your spells to power your attacks is a Magus thing to do. I also like the fluff/mechanics combo of adding energy types if the spell used is of that type (use Magic Missile for Force Damage, or Burning Hands for Fire).
I think Spell Combat covers the cast and fight bit, channeling a spell effect directly through the blade isn't that interesting.
I think Spellstrike -- with a different name maybe -- needs to be more explicitly in line with abilities like sneak attack and channel energy.
Maybe 3 times a day +INT modifier you add 1d6 of magical damage to a melee attack. At every odd level it goes up a d6.
At first level the damage is arcane. At every even level you gain the ability to choose to give that arcane damage an elemental form.
For example:
1st -- 1d6 (Arcane)
2nd -- (Fire)
3rd -- 2d6
4th -- (Electricity)
5th -- 3d6
6th -- (Acid)
7th -- 4d6
8th -- (Frost)
9th -- 5d6Maybe make an Arcana that gives you burst damage on crits.
And if you're still in love with weapons delivering spells, just make a spell-storing Arcana at a certain level.
And this.. is an interesting idea. Hmm..
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
The Problem with Arcane damage is obvious. There is no protection from it. If he should get Arcane damage it should come at really high levels ....or better not at all.
The reason why I would like it if the current option was keept for a rather easy reason. We already have a nice way to improve and replenish.
We have pearls of power and rings of wizardry for Magi to replenish their spells slots, so they can shocking grasp stab their enemies.
Having a separate ability to give the class something unique is well an good, but creating a new subsystem for the ability to add elemental damage on your weapon attacks.
Its not a bad suggestion, by all means though.
The reason why I would like it if the current option was keept for a rather easy reason. We already have a nice way to improve and replenish.
We have pearls of power and rings of wizardry for Magi to replenish their spells slots, so they can shocking grasp stab their enemies.
Having a separate ability to give the class something unique is well an good, but creating a new subsystem for the ability to add elemental damage on your weapon attacks.
Its not a bad suggestion, by all means though.
Not only those spell slot options but casting them out of scrolls or wands should also be an option. I really don't see a reason to not allow Magus to hold an wand in the off hand and charge his weapon for an attack plus spell.
I mean really for spellstrike, what you have is a statistically worse chance to hit for the option of getting Melee damage added to your spell damage. As I think we can mostly agree the Melee danger is going be less then the spell damage in most cases.
The reason why I would like it if the current option was keept for a rather easy reason. We already have a nice way to improve and replenish.
We have pearls of power and rings of wizardry for Magi to replenish their spells slots, so they can shocking grasp stab their enemies.
Having a separate ability to give the class something unique is well an good, but creating a new subsystem for the ability to add elemental damage on your weapon attacks.
Its not a bad suggestion, by all means though.
Not only those spell slot options but casting them out of scrolls or wands should also be an option. I really don't see a reason to not allow Magus to hold an wand in the off hand and charge his weapon for an attack plus spell.
I mean really for spellstrike, what you have is a statistically worse chance to hit for the option of getting Melee damage added to your spell damage. As I think we can mostly agree the Melee danger is going be less then the spell damage in most cases.
Might be a nice arcana, that allows the Magus to use his Spellstrike class feature with wands/scrolls/staffs and just for the heck of it potions (clw against undead). Or maybe the ability to hold the charge in the blade for INT+3 rounds.
Also Spellstrike with a +1 keen scimitar will crit on a 15-20 an do double damage from the pointy bladey thingy as well as critting with the spell. Seems like a nice tradeoff.
I've read through this thread and I'm still a bit confused on how this ability is supposed to work. Does it work like one round you cast into your weapon and the following round you make a melee attack, add the weapon damage and then spell damage/effect?
Or do you get to do it all in one round?
No one seems to know for sure. Including Jason.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the biggest problem with this ability the fact that there's only a single touch spell on the Magus's spell list? Of can the ability be used with ranged touch spells, too?
I've read through this thread and I'm still a bit confused on how this ability is supposed to work. Does it work like one round you cast into your weapon and the following round you make a melee attack, add the weapon damage and then spell damage/effect?
Or do you get to do it all in one round?
I think the consensus is that it is a two-round process.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the biggest problem with this ability the fact that there's only a single touch spell on the Magus's spell list? Of can the ability be used with ranged touch spells, too?
The spell list is temporary until UM comes out. The Magus will have a lot more touch spells that will be new in that book.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the biggest problem with this ability the fact that there's only a single touch spell on the Magus's spell list? Of can the ability be used with ranged touch spells, too?The spell list is temporary until UM comes out. The Magus will have a lot more touch spells that will be new in that book.
Ah, right. Thanks, I should've thought of that.
Magus begins 55 feet from target.
Round 1: Magus casts Shocking Grasp, moves 30 feet.
Round 2: Magus charges target, hitting with longsword and dealing Shocking Grasp damage as well.
Magus begins next to target. Using spell combat, Magus casts Shocking Grasp and attempts free touch. Magus attacks with sword at -4 and, if touch misses but sword hits, still gets Shocking Grasp damage.
Both neat.
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Magus begins 55 feet from target.
Round 1: Magus casts Shocking Grasp, moves 30 feet.
Round 2: Magus charges target, hitting with longsword and dealing Shocking Grasp damage as well.Magus begins next to target. Using spell combat, Magus casts Shocking Grasp and attempts free touch. Magus attacks with sword at -4 and, if touch misses but sword hits, still gets Shocking Grasp damage.
Both neat.
I don't think "neat" is good enough. It's easy as rules-junkies to get excited about it because it's new, but as they are now I think Spellstrike and Spell Combat are too muddled to be main class features right out of the gate. I don't see any of the instant appeal in them that I see in just about every other class.
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So...
I am toying with the idea of running a Magus to test it out in the Serpent's Skull AP that we are running this weekend. I am still quite confused as to how this ability works.
One view is it's a way to "hold a charge" in your weapon on the first round of combat. The situation would look like:
Round 1: Cast Shocking Grasp(Standard), then move in on the enemy(Move).
Round 2: Strike the enemy(Standard+discharge)
It seems that is the only way this can work with the wording of the level 2 skill, that allows you to cast and attack in the same round.
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So my question is, How is this ability supposed to be played?
My players and I think that the Spellstrike feature and the Arcane Weapon feature are both lackluster in that they are both things that any character can have. Understandably that the class gets them for free, our beef is that they are not exciting or new.
I personally do not have a lot of experience with arcane casters because other people in our groups tend to like them more, so things like spell storing weapons never appealed to my characters who didn't cast spells. I think all but one of us have taken a shot at DMing, so we all are players as well, and we all have a dual mindset in our assessment.
Any character can buy/make/loot a spell storing weapon, or a flaming weapon or whatever. Barbarians get rage and fast movement at first level. Rogues get the more reliable [than spellstrike] sneak attack. Monks get the equivalent of three feats (a bonus feat, improved unarmed strike, stunning fist) and flurry of blows AND three good saves. Looking at those things, the Magus doesn't seem to deliver any balance at first level (and with groups like mine, this is bad, as we are ALWAYS bringing new people to the table to teach the game to).
I can't say I have any better idea at this time but I want to express the concern. I'll have the guys brainstorming with me on this.
Maybe I'm doing something remarkably wrong with my magus testing, but an against-touch-AC attack this round and a standard melee attack next round seems to work out better than no attack this round and a melee attack damage-enhanced by a spell next round. Even if I'm using a keen scimitar to maximize the crits in the second case. Touch AC is just so much easier to hit in most cases.
It does have some advantage when combined with a reach weapon . . . but the character needs to spend either an exotic weapon proficiency on whip or use a two-handed weapon in that case, and a two-handed weapon doesn't play nice with Spell Combat.
Personally, If it's going to take me two rounds to set up the attack, I would rather see a touch attack (spell) that adds the weapons damage as well......but that's just the way I think ;)
EDIT: Upon further thought, this is what I think would fix Spellstrike (IMO).....
Spellstrike (Su): Whenever a magus casts a spell with a
range of touch from the magus spell list, he can deliver the
spell through any weapon he is wielding as a touch attack. If successful, this attack deals its normal weapon damage as
well as the effects of the spell. Alternatively, a magus
can make a free touch attack with his free hand instead of delivering the spell through his weapon, as normal.
+1 to Kortz's idea.
I totally agree that the class needs something that makes a relatively new player say "cool! I want to try one of these!".
I think Spellstrike as written feels very weak at low levels. In fact, IMO the whole class feels a bit weak at levels below 8, when it finally starts to care about full attacks and can effectively use Spell Combat.
I think an easy damage boost, with some additional arcana to add the effects of some of the spells people would like to see added to the Magus list (ie, give up dice of the strike for fatigue with a save, etc) would make the class more playable at low levels without boosting it too much in the mid-high levels.
I think the consensus is that it is a two-round process.I've read through this thread and I'm still a bit confused on how this ability is supposed to work. Does it work like one round you cast into your weapon and the following round you make a melee attack, add the weapon damage and then spell damage/effect?
Or do you get to do it all in one round?
Ok if thats the case, the ability becomes far less usefull.
I hoped that it meant that you could spellstrike in 1 round: cast + attack with weapon instead of attack with the spell.
And with Spell Combat you could be able to get your full attack cast a touch range spell and deliver it with a weapon attack in the same round.
Maybe we could ask the developers to give us 2-3 rounds of an example combat.
I posted thisin another thread but everyone seems more interested in arguing for a full BAB version then working with what we have. This seems like a better place to post this for feedback.
Kortz suggested in this thread a change to arcane strike that didn't involve channeling at all. I like the idea but it seems to rooted in the rogues sneak attack and is just a damage increase able to bypass certain DR. I propose something similar that involves granting the weapon abilities a number of rounds per day, similar to a barbarians rage powers or rogue talents. These would be abilities that could be used 3+int modifier rounds per day.
Examples:
Fatiguing strike: When you make a successful melée attack against an opponent he must make a fortitude save or be fatigued 1/round per Caster level. Ala touch of fatigue.
Paralyzingly Blow: When you make a successful melée attack against an opponent he must make a will save equal to DC or be paralyzed for 1/round per caster level. Each round on it's turn the subject may attempt a new save to end the effect. "essentially hold person"
Make the DC's static. You could make more powerful strikes later that mirror other spell like effects. Balancing could be done by dropping spells per day keeping with the flavor of arcane strike as written.
These abilities are examples and are arbitrary. I'm not saying they are balanced in any way but are merely suggestion to show an idea.
Ok, Mr. Fishy has an idea. >Waits for trolls to gather<
What if instead of a penalty to attack and a high concentration for spell combat. The Magus takes a hit to his AC like rage or cleave. The magus could then reduce the AC penalty as he gains levels.
Also he could opt to cast and risk an AoO or roll a concentration. That way he chooses his poison.
1. He rolls a concentration check with a chance of failure.
2. He skips the concentration and risk the AoO.
Either way he takes a penalty to AC, not concentration and attack. He's more likely to hit and he has options on how to cast. With or without a concentration check. Armor and buffs can cover the AC penalty at low levels and higher levels reduce the penalty to nothing. Spell Combat is still a gamble just better odds.
Ok, Mr. Fishy has an idea. >Waits for trolls to gather<
What if instead of a penalty to attack and a high concentration for spell combat. The Magus takes a hit to his AC like rage or cleave. The magus could then reduce the AC penalty as he gains levels.
Also he could opt to cast and risk an AoO or roll a concentration. That way he chooses his poison.
1. He rolls a concentration check with a chance of failure.
2. He skips the concentration and risk the AoO.
Either way he takes a penalty to AC, not concentration and attack. He's more likely to hit and he has options on how to cast. With or without a concentration check. Armor and buffs can cover the AC penalty at low levels and higher levels reduce the penalty to nothing. Spell Combat is still a gamble just better odds.
Mr. Fishy, you must eat a lot of Omega-3's because this is a great compromise for people who feel very precious about their to-hit bonus. I could see it implemented it as an arcana (maybe call it something like reckless gambit or some such ...) so that its also a stylistic choice.
And the concentration stuff just makes sense.
I think Spellstrike -- with a different name maybe -- needs to be more explicitly in line with abilities like sneak attack and channel energy.
Maybe 3 times a day +INT modifier you add 1d6 of magical damage to a melee attack. At every odd level it goes up a d6.
At first level the damage is arcane. At every even level you gain the ability to choose to give that arcane damage an elemental form.
For example:
1st -- 1d6 (Arcane)
2nd -- (Fire)
3rd -- 2d6
4th -- (Electricity)
5th -- 3d6
6th -- (Acid)
7th -- 4d6
8th -- (Frost)
9th -- 5d6Maybe make an Arcana that gives you burst damage on crits.
And if you're still in love with weapons delivering spells, just make a spell-storing Arcana at a certain level.
And this.. is an interesting idea. Hmm..
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
This is interesting. However, for me, it feels too close to the rogue and the elemental rage power. Why not just re-visit the concept and implement it in a similar fashion to the 3.5 PHBII Duskblade Arcane Channeling ability? I recognize that the ability in it of itself in 3.5 was very easy to break, but that's why we play test as you say often. Plus, this class is pretty much limited to one weapon and a free hand which instantly would fix part of the problem with the arcane channeling ability from duskblade. I'd just hate to lose the original concept of spellstrike.
How about the following instead. It tries to keep to the original intent, and is much more usable:
Spellstrike (Su): Whenever a magus strikes a target with his weapon and the target takes damage from it, he can immediately choose to cast a spell on the target as a free action. The spell must be from the magus spell list, have a range of touch, and have a casting time of 1 standard action or less.
This is exactly what I'm referring to. I wouldn't make it that powerful at level one mind you. Even the duskblade didn't get to cast a touch spell and attack as one single standard action until level 3. Maybe make it more powerful as the level increases to eventually be the equivalent of what I just quoted. Note, magi can only wield one weapon, and they must hit, and it will cost them a spell slot each time. Thus fixing virtually all of the things that made the ability broken for duskblade. I'm just saying, this seems like a cool idea, and certainly worthy of being the bread and butter of a magus as sneak attack is to the rogue.
Now these new spellstrike ideas do sound interesting. I would suggest however that elemental damage is actually inferior to straight arcane damage in most circumstances and particularly at high levels. If I would make a suggestion it would be to make the first type of damage dealt fire, then follow up with cold, electricity, acid, sonic and finally force.
Of course, I can also see the point of view of those people not wanting to change spellstrike that much because they like the base mechanic, just not its application. Perhaps a compromise of some sort can be reached?
i am really not seeing the problem with spellstrike. it use is for burst damage. at fifth level you can add a 5d6 shocking grasp most of the time with spell combat. that uses up 1 first level spell. at 10 you can intensify it for 10d6 from a second level spell. add empowered arcana and thats a lot of damage there, with your weapon damage.
i am really not seeing the problem with spellstrike. it use is for burst damage. at fifth level you can add a 5d6 shocking grasp most of the time with spell combat. that uses up 1 first level spell. at 10 you can intensify it for 10d6 from a second level spell. add empowered arcana and thats a lot of damage there, with your weapon damage.
I understand where you are coming from, but people will bring up things like economy of actions or lack of touch spells or somesuch counterargument.
of course most of the bias towards the magus is subjective bias rather than objective bias. In other words, even if the class functions perfectly people will find fault with it, either because they believe it is too powerful, not powerful enough or simply not how they envision an arcane melee caster (everything from I want a spontaneous arcane melee caster to I want to be able to rule the cosmos with my unstoppable gishnaut!)
I guess what might help spell strike is a few 0 level spells that could be used with it at lower levels. that way you aren't losing your limited first level spell, but still using spells to help deal damage or debuff. something like acid splash or ray of frost 1d3 energy damage at 1-2 level isn't overpowered or useless. touch of fatigue might be even better.