Well, I bought the APG and all.Can you get in touch with Lisa nd let her know where you bought it.
She takes it seriously when stores sell Paizo products ahead of release dates.
I can buy it on this website at this very moment.
I don't want this, I don't want that, I want to dictate how the world should be and how everybody should see everything my way.
Thank you for your opinion - I have had players play prostitutes in my game and they played the role maturely and very successfully.
Honestly I think there is a bridge and three goats waiting for you.
I just had a look at the other threads you have started and I dont think your criticisms are legitimate. You are spoiling for a bit of verbal biffo for the sake of irritating people rather than an expansive discourse to illuminate and educate or parody and entertain.
So I will no longer reply to your posts.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I can buy it on this website at this very moment.Well, I bought the APG and all.Can you get in touch with Lisa nd let her know where you bought it.
She takes it seriously when stores sell Paizo products ahead of release dates.
But can you download it Cartigan? Unless you're a subscriber (or in an agreement, like LWD), it should have been impossible to get prior to today.
Disclaimer
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I can buy it on this website at this very moment.Well, I bought the APG and all.Can you get in touch with Lisa and let her know where you bought it.
She takes it seriously when stores sell Paizo products ahead of release dates.
Yes, but AMIB has been quoting from it since yesterday and the only people who have had the book that early are those who pre-ordered and got book early (pretty rare) or subscribers who receive free pdfs.
Outside of those two routes, I don't see how he would have got it early.
Of course, I can imagine many more convoluted routes by which AMIB may have got it (borrowing a subscribers laptop, for example) before buying his own copy. It just sprang to mind because I was reading two thread almost simultaneously.
Depends totally on the role of the woman in question. I see "sacred prostitutes" (quite a title!) more like the girl from Firefly (TV series). She's highly respected and has a rather high place in society (unlike the rest of the crew). She's not exploited in any way and if it seems exploitation should follow her friends assist her against any threat.
With this in mind I'm playing Lem the Halfling Bard (yes THAT one) as a "pimp" in a game of Savage Tide a friend is running. Major fun!
But the catch here is the prostitute isn't Lem's trade good, she's her own master and is regarded even higher by the crew than Lem is (in spite of him claiming the opposite).
If prostitution linked with sex bothers you, play these "priestesses" out as they did in Torment (computer game): INTELLECTUAL companions with no sex involved whatsoever. No one offended, information gathering will make sense.
My 2 cents
"You worked as a cult prostitute in a temple. Here are some bonuses appropriate to having worked in a temple.""You worked in a temple. Here are some bonuses appropriate to having worked in a temple."
Nothing of value is lost.
In fact, it's quite similar to the image on page 321. Completely gratuitous
Well for a start, the embedding of the trait within the setting. Rightly or wrongly, many of the traits are tied to Golarion
It is a fact of the setting that in golarion, temples of Calistria have sacred prostitutes. And they are an interesting element of the setting, iconic even, and a person might wish to a play a former member of their ranks. It just so happens that element of background and the mechanic fit nicely. I still, i am afraid, do not see why you consider it offensive.
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Man in Black - I'm sure you understand the point of traits in the game. They help define some aspect of the character's background / history and give a small bonus that reflects that background.
If a given character had been a temple prostitute at some point in her/his past, this would be a perfect trait to take.
It's no different than having some kind of slave trait for characters that had once been a slave, gladiator etc.
This trait really is a non issue - I almost think at this point you are just looking for things to complain about.
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You're obviously convinced that there's a universal truth that prostitution is unequivocally reprehensible. It's not that easy, though. Prostitution may be illegal in your country, but as I said earlier, it is absolutely legal in mine, and prostitutes even pay taxes on their income. It may be immoral to your or your society's set of ethics, but that does not apply to other people or other societies either. Deal with it.
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Uh, guys, I think A Man In Black is making the minor mistake of assuming the sacred prostitutes of the Church of Calistra are pimps (aka men of our modern age in the real world who exploit the most desperate women for prophet) or slaves being exploited by pimps. It's actually quite the opposite AMiB. They are powerful clerics who believe in gaining control of society and enjoying life by embracing their most sensual desires and helping others to embrace theirs as well. They aren't being used AMiB or exploited as the goddess Calistra grants them spells and power in return for following her edicts.And this is EXACTLY the party line of organizations in the real world which ruthlessly exploit people.
Paizo, please keep this Terry Goodkind/Robert Heinlein benevolent-prostitution horsecrap out of the setting-neutral books. I can't make it any clearer than that.
Ah, so a polite version of this is what our opening post should have been?
If you weren't casting your line over shark-infested waters.
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Uh, guys, I think A Man In Black is making the minor mistake of assuming the sacred prostitutes of the Church of Calistra are pimps (aka men of our modern age in the real world who exploit the most desperate women for prophet) or slaves being exploited by pimps. It's actually quite the opposite AMiB. They are powerful clerics who believe in gaining control of society and enjoying life by embracing their most sensual desires and helping others to embrace theirs as well. They aren't being used AMiB or exploited as the goddess Calistra grants them spells and power in return for following her edicts.And this is EXACTLY the party line of organizations in the real world which ruthlessly exploit people.
Paizo, please keep this Terry Goodkind/Robert Heinlein benevolent-prostitution horsecrap out of the setting-neutral books. I can't make it any clearer than that.
Fine, we have noted your opinion. Do you really think that voicing it 20 times using a different expletive each time will make it any stronger ?
Some people have one subject, for whatever reason, they take very serious that others don't really care as strongly for. MiB's is prostitution. I don't think either side is convincing the other because the the taboo levels are not the same to us as it is to MiB.
Strangely enough I had a gf that would drink smoke, have sex, but would not eat pork. All of these things were considered bad by her religion, but she pretty much ignored everything but the pork.
The point is that sometimes we, for whatever reason, we choose things that other people will never really understand why we are passionate about, and other people will be passionate about things we don't care as much about. We may as well just let it be.
PS: There are women that choose to be prostitutes, which is a lot different than being forced into it.
Uh, guys, I think A Man In Black is making the minor mistake of assuming the sacred prostitutes of the Church of Calistra are pimps (aka men of our modern age in the real world who exploit the most desperate women for prophet) or slaves being exploited by pimps. It's actually quite the opposite AMiB. They are powerful clerics who believe in gaining control of society and enjoying life by embracing their most sensual desires and helping others to embrace theirs as well. They aren't being used AMiB or exploited as the goddess Calistra grants them spells and power in return for following her edicts.And this is EXACTLY the party line of organizations in the real world which ruthlessly exploit people.
Paizo, please keep this Terry Goodkind/Robert Heinlein benevolent-prostitution horsecrap out of the setting-neutral books. I can't make it any clearer than that.
Let's go ahead and toss out the for-the-greater-good theft, murder, and pillaging while we are playing morality police.
I didn't mean to attack you, by the way, I just thought that the assassin being part of the game - and having been part since 1st edition - was certainly common knowledge. Also I don't really like being accused of personality disorders here.
Passive-Aggressive is not a personality disorder in the current DSM. This may change when DSM V comes out, but for now you can rest easily that he did not accuse you of having a personality disorder.
I didn't mean to attack you, by the way, I just thought that the assassin being part of the game - and having been part since 1st edition - was certainly common knowledge. Also I don't really like being accused of personality disorders here.Passive-Aggressive is not a personality disorder in the current DSM. This may change when DSM V comes out, but for now you can rest easily that he did not accuse you of having a personality disorder.
I never really pictured MiB as a puritan, but now it all falls into place.
Behold the Man in Black, wearing his pointy hat, swinging the Holy Book of Fail as he denounces the heretics of design and apostates of amorality ! Hear his flaming words ! GET THE PITCHFORKS !
Solomon Kane? ^^
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This trait really is a non issue - I almost think at this point you are just looking for things to complain about.
Bingo. You win the prize.
You see, AMIB found a genuine problem in the APG, one that I am grateful to him for pointing out.
However, he got carried away with himself and declared that you could open the book at any page and find something terrible about it.
(after this is an educated guess as I do not have the book)
Then he found that it is not actually littered with glaring flaws but he did find one other thing he thought he could complain about.
So he made a massive fuss about the prostitute thing to reinforce his claim that the book is so littered with flaws that every time you open it at random you will find a horrible flaw.
Because if you make a massive fuss about two things, one of which is not even worthy of fuss, it might look like you were right to claim that the book is riddled with flaws.
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You're obviously convinced that there's a universal truth that prostitution is unequivocally reprehensible. It's not that easy, though. Prostitution may be illegal in your country, but as I said earlier, it is absolutely legal in mine, and prostitutes even pay taxes on their income. It may be immoral to your or your society's set of ethics, but that does not apply to other people or other societies either. Deal with it.I'm sure slavery is legal somewhere. I don't want slavers presented as sympathetic, either.
Twist his words,
Twist his words,Twisty, twisty twist his words.
Whee!
This is a fun game.
You're obviously convinced that there's a universal truth that prostitution is unequivocally reprehensible. It's not that easy, though. Prostitution may be illegal in your country, but as I said earlier, it is absolutely legal in mine, and prostitutes even pay taxes on their income. It may be immoral to your or your society's set of ethics, but that does not apply to other people or other societies either. Deal with it.I'm sure slavery is legal somewhere. I don't want slavers presented as sympathetic, either.
when you say sympathetic do you mean that they sympathize with others or do you mean that we as players sympathize with them, is your problem that they are making prostitutes out to be people who are normal and can be played or is your problem that they gain a bonus to sympathize with others.
No it's not the details. You may have missed his "Gonzo Review" thread, originally on the off-topic boards, but recently migrated to the Paizo Products board, where he goes through the book sequentially, gratuitously broadsiding basically everything with reckless abandon.
I'm sure slavery is legal somewhere. I don't want slavers presented as sympathetic, either.
Wait, isn't this kind of response just what you've been denouncing as a "strawman" many times before?
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Or is this expression of suprise in par with the US idea that it is OK to graphically kill someone, but sex is somehow taboo? I can't ever understand this strange take people have to sex, its something we all (eventually) do after all, which thankfully is not the same for most other aspects of RPGs.Where are you from that prostitution isn't considered exploitative and taboo?
And here the thread ended for me. Allow me to point out:
1- You're conflating your Christian-influenced American view of prostitution with a roleplaying game that does necessarily embrace the same world view. I know my game societies are a decided departure from the modern, American influenced world.
2- prostitution is not in and of itself evil. HOW it is done can be evil. In our modern context (with pimps, etc...) it is decidedly negative. Evil? I'm not sure in all contexts.
3- Using ancient fertile crescent religions as a basis, I maintain you could even present sacred prostitution in a LG religion (I have). That religion and society I designed has real world roots, is consistent and logical, and yes, prostitution is a social positive.
Try stretching your world view every now and then. Engage in thought experiments. When your knee-jerk reaction is "grab the torches and call the mob, Paizo's idea is BADWRONGDUMB!" try to actually consider it from different angles and examine your own reaction. You can not like something personally and acknowledge that there is no real problem with it.
i am starting to get the feeling after looking at his other threads that Man in black might be trying to just bash pathfinder, i think i am done looking at his threads.
Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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I don't have a problem with prostitution as a background. Escaping an unfortunate situation is a common fantasy story element. This is not escaping an unfortunate situation. This is "You were trained by your religion to be a prostitute" alongside "You were trained by your religion to destroy undead" and "You were trained by your religion to teach history." This is presented as a profession trait, not a background trait, alongside professions the PC will actually be doing over the course of a campaign.
All of these examples are valid based on the deity's portfolio. A Goddess of Sensuality is bound to have a tenet pertaining to sex, and will incorporate it as part of the rites and rituals of her faith - just as a God of Knowledge will incorporate history and research into his faith, and a God of Life will incorporate the destruction of undead into his. One is not better than another, much in the way that Christian beliefs are not necessarily better than Muslim, Buddhist, Wiccan, or Jewish beliefs - they all provide worshipers with the comfort and morality they need - they are just different from each other.
I believe your offense primarily stems from your personal faith and experience, which is not the same as those presented in the Pathfinder game. If you take a step back and try to view it from a neutral perspective, I think you may be able to see this issue in a different light.
If a book is offering "former prostitute" as something to write on their character sheet, that's acceptable if declassé. I don't want a book full of character options to give people reasons to write "practicing prostitute" on their character sheets, especially without any kind of warning for what I'm in for.
If a player at your table chooses to play a Cleric of Calistria and chooses to play the character as a Temple Prostitute who wishes to spread the will of Calistria, would you leave the game table? If you were their GM, would you ban their character from your table? If so, can you provide a reason? It is a valid PC option, and I'd like to hear your opinion on the matter.
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Depends totally on the role of the woman in question. I see "sacred prostitutes" (quite a title!) more like the girl from Firefly (TV series). She's highly respected and has a rather high place in society (unlike the rest of the crew). She's not exploited in any way and if it seems exploitation should follow her friends assist her against any threat.
Not only that, but when one of her clients did get out of line, the result was that HE got a black mark in the Companion registry, meaning he could never again enjoy the services of a companion. Or, as a character in the episode said (massively paraphrased): "You'll have to rely on your personality to get women...God help you."
MiB
While the APG and the Traits therein are supposed to be "Setting Neutral" even the neutral books created by WotC for 3rd edition included Core Deities. Calistria is a core deity worshipped most fervently by elves in the Core Book of the Pathfinder setting, hence why this trait is an Elven Trait. Unless Paizo decides to remove Core Deities from all their products, I don't see how removing this trait it correct.
Unless you want to replace the Core Deities with some of your own, this will be a recurring issue with Calistria.
Historically speaking (despite mention of political bylines espoused by those who want to exploit others), Sacred Prostitutes were a respected element of the population in some older cultures (Mesopotamia, etc). According to all historical record, they weren't exploited. That is a far cry different from the current idea of what a Pimp and Prostitute are.
Perhaps Sacred Companion would have been a better name for this trait? However, I do have to give Paizo credit for calling a spade a spade and not parsing words with the name of the trait that is perfectly applicable to a Calistria Priestess or Priest in such a fashion.
By the same token, bringing slavery into the thread isn't a perfect argument either because historically different cultures throughout history have practiced slavery, however the manner in which slaves have been treated in various cultures differs wildly. Does this make slavery in which slaves are treated better than commoners okay? No, not as such. However it does mean that such forms of slavery have existed in the past. There has been historical precedent of some cultures where people have sold themselves into slavery to better their lot in life as well, because they would have medical care, food and shelter. Things many folks couldn't always afford. Again, this doesn't make it right...however its different from what most people think of when they think slavery.
And to be brutally clear, I think Slavery is wrong. However, you can't paint all cultures with a wide brush and just assume everything is the same. Most cultures are widely different in their attitudes, both throughout history and fantasy. As it should be. I don't want all my cultures and deities the same.
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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You're obviously convinced that there's a universal truth that prostitution is unequivocally reprehensible. It's not that easy, though. Prostitution may be illegal in your country, but as I said earlier, it is absolutely legal in mine, and prostitutes even pay taxes on their income. It may be immoral to your or your society's set of ethics, but that does not apply to other people or other societies either. Deal with it.
As an FYI, prostitution is quite legal in the US in certain counties of Nevada...
Uh, guys, I think A Man In Black is making the minor mistake of assuming the sacred prostitutes of the Church of Calistra are pimps (aka men of our modern age in the real world who exploit the most desperate women for prophet) or slaves being exploited by pimps. It's actually quite the opposite AMiB. They are powerful clerics who believe in gaining control of society and enjoying life by embracing their most sensual desires and helping others to embrace theirs as well. They aren't being used AMiB or exploited as the goddess Calistra grants them spells and power in return for following her edicts.And this is EXACTLY the party line of organizations in the real world which ruthlessly exploit people.
Paizo, please keep this Terry Goodkind/Robert Heinlein benevolent-prostitution horsecrap out of the setting-neutral books. I can't make it any clearer than that.
I am sorry, but your expressing an entirely black and white view of a very complex issue.
Prostitution genuinely runs along a spectrum from professional, self-employed and independent courtesan escorts, through to victims of child sex tourism, and can be widened further still, by the inclusion of other forms of formalised sexual relationship. I don't think that saying that the first is as bad as the last, does justice to the suffering of the later, or is fair on the former.
What makes prostitution a bad things is harm and coercion. If two consenting, informed adults, who are free of sexually communicable diseases and have not been coerced choose to exchange money for the right to have sex, I fail to see how it is in anyway wrong.
At the other end of the spectrum is is the mental and physicial anquish, and lack of informed consent which make it evil, not the commoditisation
of the act, though that does make it worse.
It is demonstrable some woman build good lives for them selves using prostitution as a tool, for instance belle de jour So dismissing the idea that such is possible as 'Terry Goodkind/Robert Heinlein benevolent-prostitution horsecrap'doesn't really hold up. All Golarion does is propose a example of one set up, in which sacred prostitution occurs. It has benifits and costs, it is up for individual players and DMs to form their own moral judgements about such instituions. However, you seem to be taking a position of, this is all wrong, and it all always wrong, there for, we should not talk about it, how dare paizo mention it as a possibility, that we so discuss it.
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Sacred prostitute is somewhat more popular than the profane prostitute.
I disagree. Brittany Spears, Paris Hilton, Lindsey Lohan.... all pretty popular.
i am starting to get the feeling after looking at his other threads that Man in black might be trying to just bash pathfinder, i think i am done looking at his threads.
Agreed. Think that some people need to remember this is a fantasy roleplaying game - lot of fantasy from devil worshiping cultists, to raging barbarians to gentlemen rogues to yup even sacred prostitutes!! Loads of roleplaying too... the evil hag, the downtrodden mercenary, the inbred ogrekin... yup even a sacred prostitute!
Its a game which has something for everyone... so don't go bemoaning anything that's not your "something"...
And as for paizo's embracing of mature elements of gaming coming back and biting them? If the odd comment on this thread is the sum total of that sentiment they've sweet FA to worry about.
I'm sure slavery is legal somewhere. I don't want slavers presented as sympathetic, either.
By the way, slavery is also a fact presented in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting, It is completely legal, for example in the empire of Cheliax, which is the backdrop for an entire adventure path, as well as one of the playable factions in Pathfinder Society organized play. I'm certain that any number of Chelaxians are portrayed as sympathetic people, for many of which slavery is an accepted fact of life.
Maybe Paizo's adult-oriented outlook is just not for you, and you should just find a different game.
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It's nice to see Paizo embracing of "mature" elements coming back to bite them, at least a tiny bit.
How is aMiB going "wargle bargle blargle" over trivial nonsense "coming back to bite Paizo"?
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If it offends you, that's fine. You're entitled to that opinion.
Don't buy the product. If it really offends you, don't buy anything from Paizo, vote with your $$$'s.
What I find offensive is the Moral Minority who insist on trying to push their beliefs and morals off on the rest of the world. Who post to try to get companies to cater to their version of Morality over everyone elses.
I knew a guy who played D&D who would not play if demons were used. He considered it a sin. There could be aliens, but not demons. He was perfectly fine with playing a cleric that worshiped a different god than his own, he was perfectly fine with killing kids in character. What he couldn't handle was demons because the demons were real and he didn't want to attract their attention, because it was a sin to do so.
To me it was the height of hypocrisy to say I can pretend to worship a different god, and I can pretend to kill murder and maim, but I can't pretend to kill demons in the name of good.
This argument pretty much reminds me of that, it's ok to maim, kill, destroy, but not anything to do with sex.
+1
MiB basically wants a product that caters directly to his moral reasonings. This is faulty for two reasons, both of which have already been discussed. 1. MiB does not financially supply the company, we all do. Some of us want a product that is a bit more morally gray than black or white. 2. Current moral values exist only because it was later determined that such things were immoral. Basically, while MiB's points are valid in today's world, in the "fantasy" world of Golarion where such things as slavery, genocide, prostitution, etc. exist many of the areas who utilze these things consider them to be perfectly acceptable and moral.
If MiB doesn't like parts of this product then he should obviously stop buying future products. He should also stop trying to get people to join his bandwagon because not many people care. In short, mods you can go ahead and close this topic now.
It's nice to see Paizo embracing of "mature" elements coming back to bite them, at least a tiny bit.How is aMiB going "wargle bargle blargle" over trivial nonsense "coming back to bite Paizo"?
I'm not sure, and given that Paizo's embracing of "mature" elements, is entirely responcible for me having stuck with Pathfinder past the firsttwo Rise of the runelord adventures, i am guessing it has probably helped them far more than hurt them.
The WHO seems to disagree.I didn't mean to attack you, by the way, I just thought that the assassin being part of the game - and having been part since 1st edition - was certainly common knowledge. Also I don't really like being accused of personality disorders here.Passive-Aggressive is not a personality disorder in the current DSM. This may change when DSM V comes out, but for now you can rest easily that he did not accuse you of having a personality disorder.
Oh what do they know, :P Besides, I used the DSM, not the International one. Mainly because I haven't seen one of those and they keep shoving this DSM down my throat.
It's nice to see Paizo embracing of "mature" elements coming back to bite them, at least a tiny bit.How is aMiB going "wargle bargle blargle" over trivial nonsense "coming back to bite Paizo"?
Waaaaait a minute here... wargle Bargle blargle!?!?! Maguskn I think your onto something:
MiB = Man in Black [Eagle Barony]... it all becomes clear - This is a thread constructed by an embittered long forgotten TSR villian who clearly felt Golarian was his chance for a comeback...
All future posts in this thread should consist of something along the lines of "You can go ahead and close this thread now."
Cheliax are the devil-worshipping antagonists of that adventure path. Their leader is a half-fiend with a pit fiend vizier. I don't have a problem with slavers as long as the slavers aren't presented sympathetically.
No, Cheliax is a country full of normal people, most of them following Golarion deities and paying, at best, lip-service to the devil-worshippers.
Also the protagonists of the adventure path are supposed to be Chalaxian people as well, at least my character is.
Slavery and genocide are universally presented as unsympathetic evils in Golarion.
How do you know? Earlier you claimed that you hadn't even read the Campaign Setting