Minor threadjack. ** spoiler omitted **
Smurf it. We passed the point where minor threadjacks need to be hidden in spoilers pages ago.
Sacred Prostitute.
She chooses her path of faith.
For her GOD, she moans.Faithful Sex Worker.
His sermon a gift. Feel the
coming of his Lord.Whore, hooker, slut, filth.
All these things she's called each night.
Her Faith sustains her.Some can't understand.
their faith is found in the souls
of those each sleeps with.
Relevant, eloquent, and cognizant of the humor inherent!
*Toast* I salute you.
If a hint of prostitution drives you batty, then obviously you don't use any of the Adventure Paths or other adventures, or know much about Golarion... Why do you post here again? Just to complain about everything?
And I personally am disappointed that the 1e Random Harlot Table wasn't in the GMG, but that's just me.
If a hint of prostitution drives you batty, then obviously you don't use any of the Adventure Paths or other adventures, or know much about Golarion...
The point was made, and I think correctly, that the core rules should be as setting-neutral as possible. By that logic, ALL traits related to specific Golarion faiths should remain in campaign-setting supplements, rather than in the core rules (indeed, I'd like to see the stuff about the individual gods be moved out of the core rules and into the setting publications -- it's driving me nuts to have all the players assuming that the Golarion-specific gods are default for non-Golarion homebrew settings).
So, I'm "no" on censorship for "moral" reasons, but "yes" on moving that trait (and any other setting-specific stuff) into the setting-specific supplements.
I believe that prostitution is an objective moral evil.Anybody else see something wrong with this statement (emphasis mine)?
His statement about objectivity seems to me very subjective...
D&D believes in Objective good/evil.
If we use that criteria, that things can be objective even if you don't believe then why can't they can in real world?Objective just is: even if you don't.
So why he may or may not be wrong: Prositution organizations might be objectively evil. Very simple thing to understand.
Same as when Fighter kills someone but says to DM: killing that guy wasn't evil.
The Force of good doesn't care of you think it was: only that it was evil.
If a hint of prostitution drives you batty, then obviously you don't use any of the Adventure Paths or other adventures, or know much about Golarion...The point was made, and I think correctly, that the core rules should be as setting-neutral as possible. By that logic, ALL traits related to specific Golarion faiths should remain in campaign-setting supplements, rather than in the core rules (indeed, I'd like to see the stuff about the individual gods be moved out of the core rules and into the setting publications -- it's driving me nuts to have all the players assuming that the Golarion-specific gods are default for non-Golarion homebrew settings).
So, I'm "no" on censorship for "moral" reasons, but "yes" on moving that trait (and any other setting-specific stuff) into the setting-specific supplements.
The APG is not a core rulebook. Problem solved.
Relevant words come,
stilettos from dead of night.
Dying thread is dead.
edit:
Quoted during edit
Words fixed in concrete or stone.
Haiku, infectious.
Amazing... really.
Just one thing MiB, you have the right to your opnions and beliefs, as we all. But calling prostituion a "Social Evil" is waaaayyy off, if at all, it's a social good.
When women are exploited, it's bad, yes. When children are exploited, yes, it's horrible. When there is cheating involved, it's bad (to some).
Everything else, it's good, as good as say... a massage, I fail to see it as something evil, at all, sex is good and healthy, if someone is willing(that's the key word here) to do it for money, and someone is willing to pay for it, nobody is getting hurt, on the contrary, everyone is happy... except you apparently. I fail to see that situation as evil in ANY way. So... I call b~!~!+%s on "Social Evil"
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What aMiB’s point should have been from the start is ‘please keep setting specific things (for example this trait) out of the setting neutral rule books’ – a fair and reasonable point, if one that I don’t personally agree with in this case.
Unfortunately, he started this thread with words like ‘silliness’ and a one word comment, ‘seriously?’ and came across as a troll. When a thread starts with that sort of thing, there is only one way it will go.
I don’t agree at all with aMiB’s views on prostitution (and by voicing them, what should have been the real point of the thread has been derailed and he has opened himself up to criticism) but people please remember the messageboard rules here and do not insult people for their views. We are entitled to our personal moral views if they do not hurt other people.
The APG is not a core rulebook. Problem solved.
Except that, looking past the snark, it seems you know exactly what I'm talking about and simply chose not to address it, going for a cheap shot instead. Substitute "non-setting-oriented" for "core" and the point stands as stated, as any number of people have also pointed out since then.
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What outrages me is the lack of rules for cocaine, including the DCs for cutting it properly using Craft (8ball).
How can you have hookers, and not blow? That's like peanut butter without chocolate.
Sorry, in my capacity as a trained professional, I have to say people who cut their blow are actually exercising Profession: d#~~&+$. Doesn't take any skill to ruin good blow with Mannitol. ;-)
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Sorry, in my capacity as a trained professional, I have to say people who cut their blow are actually exercising Profession: d%%~%*~. Doesn't take any skill to ruin good blow with Mannitol. ;-)What outrages me is the lack of rules for cocaine, including the DCs for cutting it properly using Craft (8ball).
How can you have hookers, and not blow? That's like peanut butter without chocolate.
I suppose if you can't get a thread to close derailing it to the point of silliness is the next best thing.
I do love arguing, but I was working on a thread about how grappling is a complete trainwreck at the time (which should be worth at least a week's worth of entertainment on top of the thread's productive value). This I didn't expect pushback on. Which is kind of dumb in retrospect, but I was rather shocked at the time.
I'm going to lightly engage the overall topic purely because of the sentence with the bold word. This being the Internet, I need to let you know my tone: friendly and engaging, not hostile and confrontational.
Dude. Friend. Contributor. Open your eyes.
In the world I live in, sex and the sex trade aren't immoral or even philosophically wrong. Why do I see it this way? Statistics. Let me explain.
Child porn is clearly wrong. Creation, distribution, and consumption of that media is almost universally considered by both the law and by the citizenry of the world to be wrong. Very, very few people aren't opposed to child porn. It's aberrant thus it's wrong and immoral.
Murder is clearly wrong. Contracting for, or committing murder is also almost universally reviled as an evil act. Again, very, very few people believe otherwise. Murder is aberrant thus it's wrong and immoral.
Things get complicated when you start looking at gray areas. Drug use. Alcohol is a mind-altering drug, plain and simple yet most societies on Earth have permissive attitudes towards its use. Pot use is considered legal taboo in many places yet it's regularly and trivially circumvented. Almost nobody would "narc" on a friend, neighbor, or relative who admitted to smoking up. Why? Because it's not universally viewed as wrong. Yes, there are some uncomfortable issues related to drug use, but it fails the statistical test and can't be declared wrong or immoral because it isn't aberrant behaviour.
See where this is going? The sex trade, be it pornography or prostitution is almost identically positioned. Yes there are socially repressed countries where anything erotic is taboo but there's a very high correlation between those places and a visible lack of progressive human-rights attitudes. It is conspicuous that the places where sexuality is taboo are also places that suppress human rights the majority of the world (by area, not population) consider fundamental.
The Internet is full of porn for a reason: average people want it. Lots of people want it. Sure, porn isn't prostitution, but it's very closely related. If it's okay to pay a actor to undress and perform sex with another paid actor while you watch, why isn't it okay to pay such a person to treat you exactly as if you were another paid actor? If sex-acts-for-hire are moral - which the high prevalence of porn explicitly demands - then sex-acts-for-hire are moral.
Barring aberrations such as bestiality, incest, violence, and under-age content, you've got to use the simple and evident fact that vast, huge portions of the human population approve of sex-acts-for-hire to inform yourself about what is and isn't moral.
I'm sorry this is so long and I'm not really trying to convince you to change your viewpoint. What I am asking you to do is open your eyes, look around you, and observe the gigantic pile of evidence that human beings love, adore and covet sex. Believe what you want, but dude... don't ever be shocked to find that publishers aren't as atypical as you.
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What outrages me is the lack of rules for cocaine, including the DCs for cutting it properly using Craft (8ball).
How can you have hookers, and not blow? That's like peanut butter without chocolate.
In another recent post about stealing, I mentioned that my character got stabbed to death by a CE halfling. What I didn't mention, because it wasn't relevant at the time, was that my character was passed out because with all the money I had stolen I bought a ton (well, a lot) of blow. My GM ruled that after I did a couple of lines my character fell asleep and couldn't be waken...
I didn't say anything at the time, but it was pretty obvious to me that the GM didn't know much about cocaine!
Well, did you test the stuff first, or just do the typical hand wave? If you didn't roleplay the buy out, obviously what happened was you were sold a sedative in lieu of blow with a numbing agent and petroleum distillate (to simulate the taste/smell). The seller was either working in concert with the evil hafling, or was unaware you were being stalked.
Don't assume your DM didn't know about blow, all good adventurers are much more paranoid than that...
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This is silly.
Hrrm? OK I missed a Pop-culture reference there. Care to enlighten me?Chinatown.
How can you watch a Roman Polanski movie if you feel so strongly about a stupid trait in a roleplaying game? Helping a known child molester make a living isn't exactly in line with the moral outrage you profess (yes, he still gets paid royalties from that movie). Well, unless you downloaded it from a torrent site, but that's stealing, so...
How can you watch a Roman Polanski movie...
Speaking of movies...
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How can you watch a Roman Polanski movie...Speaking of movies... ** spoiler omitted **
And Morgan LOVED Big Trouble in Little China, thanks for the loan :)
Slightly OT... but I was just reminded about a series of books by Janet E Morris and her High Couch of Silistra series. Where issues of infertility brought about a society centered around Great Houses of "Prostitution".
Calistra = Silistra? Considering Paizo's penchant for drawing inspiration from literary and historical/mythological sources?
Actually, in another thread, don't remember which, I recall JJ saying that the source of Calistria's name was Calisto or some such from greek mythology, a nymph. I don't feel like looking up the exact name right now, but...*shrugs*
Minor threadjack. ** spoiler omitted **Smurf it. We passed the point where minor threadjacks need to be hidden in spoilers pages ago.
It was past time.
Hmm... a prostitution trait vs. maintaining ones virginity...
Callisto (courtesy of Wiki)
"I sleep with prostitutes...and I play D&D."
If something is objective, that means that it is, whether you believe it or not.I believe that it's true and would remain true even if I stopped believing in it. I don't believe that being a sex worker is a sin (in fact, I've carefully not made any comment about my own faith). I'm sure the people you know are quite nice, and I'd rather live in a world where there wasn't an institution that exploited them.
Yes, I wish there was a world without exploitation, too. Unfortunately, I'm going to go to work in a few hours where I will load 1000 packages into trucks, be constantly berated for not working fast enough, questioned about why I'm going to the bathroom, and lectured at because I put 2 of the 1000 packages in the wrong place. And I'm the steward!
It is an objective fact that sex WORKERS are being exploited, but it's not because they're putting out.
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1. This thread should be locked.
2. Since it's not locked it needs another Firefly observation. Inara Serra is a positive example of a Companion/Prostitute. In Pathfinder terms she is also Lawful Good. The sexual tension in her relationship with Mal is what happens when Lawful Good and Chaotic Good consider mating.
All the Best,
Kerney
The designers made Golarion Gods complex, so none of them are perfect. See Erastil's sexism thread. I think the Callistra prostitution angle is great, but it should be in the Golarion material. Tackling issues of sexuality is great, but it shouldn't be in the Core line. This particular trait shouldn't have been included in the APG.
My only problem with Paizo addressing issues of slavery and prostitution in a less than "only for the bad guys" light is the issue of Pathfinder Organized Play. Having lived through (and personally suffered from) the Jack Chick Era, I cringe at the idea of a player sitting down at a table during a convention and proclaiming in a proud gamer voice that he/she "brought his slave prostitute along and does anyone want a go at her/him before the adventure starts?"
Cue the Fox News video clip of "morally degenerate gamers promote slavery and prostitution to our children!"
That having been said, having a trait that specifies that the character is a "former slaver" or "former prostitute" is no big deal. Traits relating to "current slaver/prostitute" should be placed in non PFS acceptable products. Definitely not in the APG.
1. This thread should be locked.
2. Since it's not locked it needs another Firefly observation. Inara Serra is a positive example of a Companion/Prostitute. In Pathfinder terms she is also Lawful Good. The sexual tension in her relationship with Mal is what happens when Lawful Good and Chaotic Good consider mating.
All the Best,
Kerney
LN at best. Inara isn't good. She just isn't evil.
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Why won't you let it die?
Hey, I paid for three hours with this prostitute thread. I'm damn well going to use all three. :P
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The designers made Golarion Gods complex, so none of them are perfect. See Erastil's sexism thread. I think the Callistra prostitution angle is great, but it should be in the Golarion material. Tackling issues of sexuality is great, but it shouldn't be in the Core line. This particular trait shouldn't have been included in the APG.
My only problem with Paizo addressing issues of slavery and prostitution in a less than "only for the bad guys" light is the issue of Pathfinder Organized Play. Having lived through (and personally suffered from) the Jack Chick Era, I cringe at the idea of a player sitting down at a table during a convention and proclaiming in a proud gamer voice that he/she "brought his slave prostitute along and does anyone want a go at her/him before the adventure starts?"
Cue the Fox News video clip of "morally degenerate gamers promote slavery and prostitution to our children!"
That having been said, having a trait that specifies that the character is a "former slaver" or "former prostitute" is no big deal. Traits relating to "current slaver/prostitute" should be placed in non PFS acceptable products. Definitely not in the APG.
'80s are over, bro. With GTA out there, I think we're good.
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LN at best. Inara isn't good. She just isn't evil.1. This thread should be locked.
2. Since it's not locked it needs another Firefly observation. Inara Serra is a positive example of a Companion/Prostitute. In Pathfinder terms she is also Lawful Good. The sexual tension in her relationship with Mal is what happens when Lawful Good and Chaotic Good consider mating.
All the Best,
Kerney
She went to Miranda. She was always caring for her fellow crew and showed absolutely no greedy tendencies, unlike Jayne. I go with good. Regardless, her relationship w/ Mal is a good example of what happens when Lawfuls and Chaotics feel sexual tension.
All the Best,
Kerney
I guess the fact that my girl friend played an Assasin/Courtesan in one of our canpaigns must really make a few people twitch!
In case nobody pointed it out in the last 9-ish pages, I think the picture on page 231 is a representation of the lead blades spell from page 230.
In case nobody pointed it out in the last 9-ish pages, I think the picture on page 231 is a representation of the lead blades spell from page 230.
I believe that the poster meant the illustration on page 321.
Dirty trick, maybe?
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I'm not Christian or American. Check your assumptions.
I never said you were. nevertheless, that does not mean that your moral reaction here is not heavily influenced by judeo-christian values from the western society you live in. And unless you live under a rock, you've been influenced by American culture.
Check your own assumptions. Thanks for playing.
How can you watch a Roman Polanski movie if you feel so strongly about a stupid trait in a roleplaying game? Helping a known child molester make a living isn't exactly in line with the moral outrage you profess (yes, he still gets paid royalties from that movie). Well, unless you downloaded it from a torrent site, but that's stealing, so...This is silly.
Hrrm? OK I missed a Pop-culture reference there. Care to enlighten me?Chinatown.
I guess he doesn't own any Michael Jackson albums either!