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I was just looking over the APG, (great job, all involved; truly, it is a marvel of a book) and as a paladin fan, I was very excited to see what Paizo decided to do with the anti-paladin. For the most part, it is a mirror of the paladin (eg. this good thing, yeah, just like that, 'cept evil). There are however a few abilities that concern me.
1. The smite evil. I know that there is no good alternative to undead, and they had to fill the gap somehow. However, It seems like a paladin gets the short end of the stick (for a round) when it comes to this. Shouldn't paladins also get a bonus against the anti-paladin?
2. Aura of Courage. Really? It's useless around an anti-paladin? I'd understand if the respective abilities canceled each other out, but only the paladin's ability is suppressed. There's not even a level caveat (like uncanny dodge).
3. Divine Bond. Part one, cool. Part two: Holy crap! At level 4, they can have a Dretch as a companion. By 17th level, it's a freakin' Nalshefnee (or Glabrezu)! This wouldn't be terrible, but let's face it, the animal companion (usually a horse, camel, or riding dog) doesn't even near compare to this.
How are paladins supposed to combat an enemy with this much over them?
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1. Reread the Aura of Evil ability- paladins do deal extra damage against antipaladins.
3. An antipaladin’s servant does not increase in HD and so on like a paladin’s does (like a druid animal companion).
1. You're correct. I rescind complaint one. That is quite fair.
3. Yes, it's true. A paladin's mount is much more powerful than a normal mount. 16d8 HD is nothing to be ashamed of. But Something like a Nalsfeshnee has 14d10 HD. It has more natural armor, ridiculous ability scores, SLA's, and nasty natural attacks. Even with the animal companion increases, the two are far from on semi-quasi- sorta level playing ground.
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By the time that you are able to summon a Nalshefnee, a Fighter can just sneeze at it and kill it in one round, and straight casters are in the "excuse me, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am" zone. Also, gate and planar bindings.
A CR 14 creature doesn't change the balance at that point.
I'm also guessing the anti-paladin might have been designed to take on a balanced party of 4 heroes.
By the time that you are able to summon a Nalshefnee, a Fighter can just sneeze at it and kill it in one round, and straight casters are in the "excuse me, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am" zone.
That's debatable (I would argue that having a buddy who can cast Greater Dispel Magic every round is still useful at level 17), but it still doesn't really answer the question: "Why does the antipaladin get a bad-ass demon when the paladin just gets a horse with some extra hit points?"
A CR 14 creature doesn't change the balance at that point.
Actually, it has CR 15 from the free Advanced template it gets.
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Don't forget too that in most situations, an antipaladin has NPC wealth and only one action per round. Unlike a group of PCs...
That's absolutely a fair point. As the BBEG, it's pretty well balanced out.
I'm more concerned with the 1-1 ratio of paladin vs. anti-paladin. As soon as you add a paladin's party and the AP becomes an NPC, there isn't an issue. I suppose it's more of an "a paladin and an anti-paladin run into each other on the battlefield or in a dark alley" situation.
Now you see why evil will always win - because good is dumb.
>_> <_< Sorry, I had to throw that out there, lol.
Something you seem to have missed, though - TOuch of Corruption isn't nearly as good as Lay on Hands. Why? Well, it's sorta a mirrior, with the hurting instead of helping...but you can't swift-action-heal yourself.
But I WANT my BBEGs to swift heal themselves!!!!! WAHHHHH!!!!
Evil abilities are normally more powerful than good ones in D&D. Look at the summon monster list(PF and 3.5), and the spells with the evil subtypes. Spell Compendium has a few good ones. I think Avasculate is evil.
Now you see why evil will always win - because good is dumb.
>_> <_< Sorry, I had to throw that out there, lol.
Something you seem to have missed, though - TOuch of Corruption isn't nearly as good as Lay on Hands. Why? Well, it's sorta a mirrior, with the hurting instead of helping...but you can't swift-action-heal yourself.
This is easily circumvented by becoming undead. See Council of Thieves #2 for the Graveknight, or see the core rulebook for rules on stabbing yourself in the jugular and having a friend animate you as a wight or a ghoul. Problem solved! And now you can use Cha instead of Con for HP, which goes up, since you're undead...
Touch of Corruption is majorly powerful by the way. If anyone didn't notice, the Conductive weapon quality in the magic item chapter makes it possible for an antipaladin to drop xd6 damage and all status effects on his first melee strike each round for two lay on hands... and it doesn't say that he can't still use the ability as a swift action on himself in the same round.
12th level antipaladin can conductive smite for weapon dice + 12 or 24 + str mod + misc. dice + 6d6 untyped damage + and force a DC16+cha mod save (on a graveknight antipaladin I recently created, he had a 24 Cha score without really focusing on it, making this save a DC23 at 13th level--making this a 40% chance of failure for the paladin, a risky maneuver) against Stun, Cursed, Shaken and Fatigued. If you fail the save, he forces you to drop your weapon, take a -6 penalty to constitution, strength and dexterity, take a -2 to attacks, skill checks, ability checks and saves, lose 2 more misc. AC, lose your dex bonus to AC if you still have one, and you're denied actions for three rounds. Oh, and if he has a round he can add unholy and vicious to his weapon as well.
So, if you were like... +3 weapon, +3 mithral fullplate, +3 heavy shield, +3 amulet of nat armor and +3 ring of deflect like a paladin should be... Let's say 16 dex, 14 con and 22 strength. 16 cha so he's smiting on the antipaladin for a redundant deflection bonus.
Goes from: +21/+16/+11 and 37 AC, avg. HP so 114.
to +16/+11/+6 and 32 AC, HP 114 to 78 from constitution damage. Avg. damage on a smite good on you for this antipaladin, assuming mirror stats is 4.5+1+24+21+6+8+7+7=78 damage.
One shot kill assuming he rolls average on 1d8 and 10d6 and you fail the DC19 save, and he started the game with a 10 charisma. If he's at all thought it out, he's got a higher Cha than 16. If he's full attacking you, he has two more swings left as well. Oh, and he has two more rounds of full attacks to kill you, since you can't lay on hands yourself or use heroic defiance to try to not die instantly because you're stunned and can't take actions. Then he laughs and takes 1d6 damage after you're dead.
Ridiculous. God help you if he criticals. Well, at least the antipaladin doesn't get bless weapon.
That is much much much much much more powerful than a paladin being able to conductive strike an undead for 6d6 damage. Especially when the antipaladin can conductive strike the same undead and still do damage and inflict status effects on him-- the damage for the antipaladin is untyped, and not negative energy, so he can corruptive touch to damage even undead creatures.
I guess the spell corruption resistance was put in so that the paladin could even hope to survive this attack. Death ward doesn't even protect against it since it's not negative energy. It's absurd.
"excuse me, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am"
Going on my quote wall.
I am confused....
Good is dumb but evil is going to stab themselves in the neck and waiting for their "friend" likely another evil type to animate them....
More like stab self in jugular and "friend" steals all your gear inserts quieting needles into you and leaves you for dead.....
Just because they're evil doesn't mean they don't have friends? And even so, the antipaladin has his religion backing him up, someone like Zon-Kuthon, Asmodeus or Norgorber. "Raise me as an undead or I won't remove the curse of impotency I just put on you by touching you" or "Raise me as an undead or my friends here will kill you" or "Raise me as an undead and I will serve you until your death as payment" are all excellent reasons to not divert from the proper course of action the antipaladin expects you to take.
I hate it when people confuse "evil" for "stupid."
I imagine many antipaladins become 1st level, stumble into towns, kick puppies and threaten commoners before being killed by the town guard. Judging by the number in the back of the DMG, at least 3d6 antipaladins per week die terribly while shouting "I can't go to prison! It's my nature to destroy! If I'm forced into a jail cell and into a strict regimented lifestyle, I'll fall from antipaladinhood!"
3. An antipaladin’s servant does not increase in HD and so on like a paladin’s does (like a druid animal companion).
So you end up with a 16HD Celestial Horse vs a Glabrezu? Sure, ok...
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I am of the opinion that the anti-paladin should not exist in the first place. The fantasy world in full of evil beings, from puny mites to demons and devils. PCs will typically encounter evil monsters overwhelmingly. The paladin exists as a counterbalance to the evil in the world. Creating the anti-paladin, a counterbalance to the counterbalance, is superfluous.
I am of the opinion that the anti-paladin should not exist in the first place. The fantasy world in full of evil beings, from puny mites to demons and devils. PCs will typically encounter evil monsters overwhelmingly. The paladin exists as a counterbalance to the evil in the world. Creating the anti-paladin, a counterbalance to the counterbalance, is superfluous.
Quite honestly, there should be very, very few who survive to any degree of high level. Their "MUST backstab!" philosophy should make the ones who survive very lucky and very scary.
I am of the opinion that the anti-paladin should not exist in the first place. The fantasy world in full of evil beings, from puny mites to demons and devils. PCs will typically encounter evil monsters overwhelmingly. The paladin exists as a counterbalance to the evil in the world. Creating the anti-paladin, a counterbalance to the counterbalance, is superfluous.
Fair enough, so don't include them in your world. There are lots of us who wanted an anti-paladin, so I'm glad it was included. I don't see a paladin as a "counterbalance" to evil, but as a champion of good. Evil should have champions too. At least, in my worlds.
I probably would have preferred a LE anti-paladin though, as champion of evil seems more likely to arise from the devil hierarchy. I can see why they choose what they did. I can adapt the old paladin of Tyranny/slaughter/etc rules with this to make everything I need though.
PS: I initially mistyped "ant-paladin", which filled my head with visions of small insectoid champions.
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I am of the opinion that the anti-paladin should not exist in the first place. The fantasy world in full of evil beings, from puny mites to demons and devils. PCs will typically encounter evil monsters overwhelmingly. The paladin exists as a counterbalance to the evil in the world. Creating the anti-paladin, a counterbalance to the counterbalance, is superfluous.Fair enough, so don't include them in your world. There are lots of us who wanted an anti-paladin, so I'm glad it was included. I don't see a paladin as a "counterbalance" to evil, but as a champion of good. Evil should have champions too. At least, in my worlds.
I probably would have preferred a LE anti-paladin though, as champion of evil seems more likely to arise from the devil hierarchy. I can see why they choose what they did. I can adapt the old paladin of Tyranny/slaughter/etc rules with this to make everything I need though.
PS: I initially mistyped "ant-paladin", which filled my head with visions of small insectoid champions.
That's what I love about this sort of game. Its richness, complexity and variability are unmatched. No one would say, "I don't think there should be knights in chess - their movement pattern is absurd!"
I agree with you that the anti-paladin should be lawful. It seems to me that the dedication required to champion a cause implies a lawful alignment.
(I know, I know. Someone will say it now.)
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I am of the opinion that the anti-paladin should not exist in the first place. The fantasy world in full of evil beings, from puny mites to demons and devils. PCs will typically encounter evil monsters overwhelmingly. The paladin exists as a counterbalance to the evil in the world. Creating the anti-paladin, a counterbalance to the counterbalance, is superfluous.Fair enough, so don't include them in your world. There are lots of us who wanted an anti-paladin, so I'm glad it was included. I don't see a paladin as a "counterbalance" to evil, but as a champion of good. Evil should have champions too. At least, in my worlds.
I probably would have preferred a LE anti-paladin though, as champion of evil seems more likely to arise from the devil hierarchy. I can see why they choose what they did. I can adapt the old paladin of Tyranny/slaughter/etc rules with this to make everything I need though.
PS: I initially mistyped "ant-paladin", which filled my head with visions of small insectoid champions.
That's what I love about this sort of game. Its richness, complexity and variability are unmatched. No one would say, "I don't think there should be knights in chess - their movement pattern is absurd!"
I agree with you that the anti-paladin should be lawful. It seems to me that the dedication required to champion a cause implies a lawful alignment.
(I know, I know. Someone will say it now.)
I agree 100% I've always thought of the anti-paladin archtype as lawful evil. I'll just mentally white out the chaotic evil part of his alignment in my APG and write lawful evil :)
In my game I got rid of the Lawful/Chaotic alignment restriction for each of them, though I still require them to stay close to the code. >.>
and it doesn't say that he can't still use the ability as a swift action on himself in the same round.
Certainly, it's more effective as an offensive weapon than Lay on hands is, but it doesn't have the swift action thing anyway, even if you're undead. You could heal yourself with it, but it'd take a standard action like healing another undead would.
Why only mentally? Go for it! Use literal Wite Out!
I agree 100% I've always thought of the anti-paladin archtype as lawful evil. I'll just mentally white out the chaotic evil part of his alignment in my APG and write lawful evil :)
Or perhaps, Wight Out...
and it doesn't say that he can't still use the ability as a swift action on himself in the same round.Certainly, it's more effective as an offensive weapon than Lay on hands is, but it doesn't have the swift action thing anyway, even if you're undead. You could heal yourself with it, but it'd take a standard action like healing another undead would.
Hm, good point. So, you can just burn all of your lay on hands through conductive strikes then. ><
PS: I initially mistyped "ant-paladin", which filled my head with visions of small insectoid champions.
That same phrase to me conjured visions of Formian Paladins.
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Ant Paladins can smite 10 times their own body weight.
Ant Paladins can smite 10 times their own body weight.
LOL
Ant Paladins can smite 10 times their own body weight.
So they get double damage smites against things 2+ size categories larger than themselves?
"Heroes have morals...villains have work ethic" unknown source
"I saw my advantage and I took it. Thats what heros do." Homer Simpson
So you end up with a 16HD Celestial Horse vs a Glabrezu? Sure, ok...
3. An antipaladin’s servant does not increase in HD and so on like a paladin’s does (like a druid animal companion).
Or if you want to compare mounts to mounts, a level 20 paladin's horse has a BAB of +12 and a Str of 28 (at best), and maybe 120 hp, whereas an anti-paladin can cruise around on a bebelith with +12 BAB, 32 Str and 174 hp starting at level 13.
Or if you want to compare mounts to mounts, a level 20 paladin's horse has a BAB of +12 and a Str of 28 (at best), and maybe 120 hp, whereas an anti-paladin can cruise around on a bebelith with +12 BAB, 32 Str and 174 hp starting at level 13.So you end up with a 16HD Celestial Horse vs a Glabrezu? Sure, ok...
3. An antipaladin’s servant does not increase in HD and so on like a paladin’s does (like a druid animal companion).
His bebilith has a ridiculously loud bass thumpa-thumpa and he parks it next to old folks' homes at night and refuses to turn down the volume.
what a fiend!
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That's what I love about this sort of game. Its richness, complexity and variability are unmatched. No one would say, "I don't think there should be knights in chess - their movement pattern is absurd!"
Have you *seen* that movement pattern? I mean really, I can get rooks and their 'up and down is my domain biotch!' attitude and the bishop's 'just get diagonal of me and I'm ROFLstomp you' but knights? Man they be all up in this like 'I'll go here, and then here, and ooh look I made an L! teehee' man, what?!
Or if you want to compare mounts to mounts, a level 20 paladin's horse has a BAB of +12 and a Str of 28 (at best), and maybe 120 hp, whereas an anti-paladin can cruise around on a bebelith with +12 BAB, 32 Str and 174 hp starting at level 13.So you end up with a 16HD Celestial Horse vs a Glabrezu? Sure, ok...
3. An antipaladin’s servant does not increase in HD and so on like a paladin’s does (like a druid animal companion).
I think 1/month wish pretty much beats out anything the Paladin gets from his mount, barring 3.5 Halfling Paladin/Ranger/Beastmaster/Halfling Outrider builds that run around with hatchling Gold Dragon special mount/animal companion hybrids that can take control of every gold dragon in the world and recreate Dragonlance. (yes, that's an entirely legal build)
I think 1/month wish pretty much beats out anything the Paladin gets from his mount, barring 3.5 Halfling Paladin/Ranger/Beastmaster/Halfling Outrider builds that run around with hatchling Gold Dragon special mount/animal companion hybrids that can take control of every gold dragon in the world and recreate Dragonlance. (yes, that's an entirely legal build)
Yeah, but the Paladin abilities are nerfed, unfortunately, otherwise...orsm.
btw, how does the Hatchling age? By years or levels?
...and what was that about controlling every gold dragon and recreating the Dragonlance??? Where the hell was Huma???
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I agree with you that the anti-paladin should be lawful. It seems to me that the dedication required to champion a cause implies a lawful alignment.(I know, I know. Someone will say it now.)
Anyone of any alignment can be dedidicated to a cause. A True Neutral Druid can be VERY dedicated to protecting her forest against the encroachment of those determine to despoil it.
One alignment is no less dedicatable to causes than another. Alignment however can influence motives and means used to pursue it.
Ironic, isn't it?
That always seemed like a paradox to me. I have always seen unwavering devotion to a cause as a very lawful trait, so I have difficulty imagining that sort of absolute dedication to the absence of law. I'll chalk it up to my own limited imagination.Your example to the druid's single-minded devotion to the natural world does not feel paradoxical to me, however. I guess that the realm of nature trumps such petty human concerns as law/chaos/good/evil.
That's what I love about this sort of game. Its richness, complexity and variability are unmatched. No one would say, "I don't think there should be knights in chess - their movement pattern is absurd!"
You think that's crazy, take a look at Chinese chess. "What do you mean my king is stuck in a box? Unless he sees the other king in which case he can fly!"
"It's all about me!"
Actuall the combination of alignment and code make the anti-paladin a very singleminded afair. While this may seem to fly in the face of 'unpredictable' part of Chaotic Evil tha's only one part of it. Pick an evil goal that benefits the Anti-paladin, lets be simple.
He wants to be the strongest 'human' (insert race of your choice here) to ever live. He can do this by killing all those literally stronger then him. He can also take anything that will make him stronger. This could mean he will bully a party member into giving him any magical items that make stronger. He could even kill them for it.
Thoughs on Choatic Evil and goals.
This is dedication to a single greedy goal. Unlike someone who is Lawful he will cheat, hurt, or do just about anything to achive it. Even a Lawful Evil villian has some lines he won't cross. He would even rescue little timmy from the well if that was the only way for him to obatin even more strenght (if he couldn't kill or steal from the the person giving the reward to get it faster). Now that is what is unpredictable, not the goal, but the actions taken in getting to it.
An anti-paladin would help a forgetful little old lady home (because torchering her would not get the location of her house) so he could then take her dead husbands powerful magical item. Is helping the little old lady home a good act? Sure, but he isn't doing it because it to be nice, or even because it is a social obligation. He does this 'good' act because it would further his greedy goal.
While he could have greater goals such as dominating the world, it's all about him. A Lawful Evil person may be doing it for the 'greater good', a Netural Evil person may not be as single minded and would more cautious in their actions. For the CE Anti-paladin is 24/7 all about me train and how to get to my personal goal as quickly as possible, which often means large amounts of direct physical violance or intimidation to make other people do what I want.
That may be an overly simple way of thinking about it and a more robust character will have greater detail and methods then just "mine, me smash", but the same holds for Lawful Stupid as it does Chaotic Stupid.
Take another example... Worf the Klingon is extremely dedicated to the honorable path both in protecting someone else's honor but especially his own. This can easily be seen as a chaotic good motivation... but just as strong as a dedication of a paladin to law. It's not a lawful dedication because Worf is far more dedicated than the bulk of his own people.
Having just re-watched a lot of TNG I have to disagree. Worf is very lawful. Adhering strictly to a code even when it is detrimental is practically the definition. Being more dedicated to honor than the rest of your people is lawful, it doesn't wrap around to being chaotic. I don't know if his characterization changed in the later years of DS9, but in TNG he is characterized as extremely lawful.