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If the Alchemist had his equipment set up and had some access to alchemical texts and maybe sneaked into the city every once in a while, I would let him level up as an Alchemist.
Wizard, as long as he had means to study, and Sorcerer, no question.
I fail to see how having to sneak into the city would have any bearing. Remember how equipment works in the rules: they just give bonuses, they specifically say you can drum up stuff to use, just the equipment makes your task easier, hence the bonus. And if you have nothing but time, you have time to experiment, giving you all the research you need to keep leveling up.
Doesn't the iconic alchemist say after learning from (someone can't remember who) he continued experimenting on his own?
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I think the Alchemist definitely tends to be a lone experimenter and could probably advance some on his own, but, like science, I think advancement in alchemical pseudo-science would also depend partly on the work of others.
I would make some discoveries off-limits or cap the character at a certain level if he went totally primitive and never spoke to another Alchemist again.
I fail to see how having to sneak into the city would have any bearing. Remember how equipment works in the rules: they just give bonuses, they specifically say you can drum up stuff to use, just the equipment makes your task easier, hence the bonus. And if you have nothing but time, you have time to experiment, giving you all the research you need to keep leveling up.
If the Alchemist had his equipment set up and had some access to alchemical texts and maybe sneaked into the city every once in a while, I would let him level up as an Alchemist.
Wizard, as long as he had means to study, and Sorcerer, no question.
An alchemist experiments trial and error, he doesn't need a teacher, nor an alchemy lab to work in. Would it be ideal, sure.
How would a wizard be able to study without a mentor or going to town to find a spell he doesn't know? He writes that spell using various arcane symbols and phrases and gestures and components he already has and through trial and error, figures out a combination that works.
A mentor is not required for any class nor is being able to go into a city. If you ran kingmaker this way, the party would have to waste weeks of time every time they level just so the alchemist could get his new level, very unfair to one class when no other would have this restriction.
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A mentor is not required for any class nor is being able to go into a city. If you ran kingmaker this way, the party would have to waste weeks of time every time they level just so the alchemist could get his new level, very unfair to one class when no other would have this restriction.
The issue was whether or not the Alchemist can go totally primitive and still advance. I think he would need occasional contact with civilization. I'm not worried about a character running back to the city so he can go from 3rd to 4th level.
A problem with this is that alchemist extracts do have a casting time, and that casting time is "standard action."
Keep in mind, this even goes for alchemist only extracts. If they weren't meant to be treated as spells with a standard action, why are they written as one?
Also, the whole "Well you need to sneak into civilization" thing is just asinine. "I'm sorry Joe, but because the last adventure was in the city, your ranger didn't gain any experience." "I'm sorry Suzy, but your wizard is too far away from their tower; until you leave the dungeon and find a library, you can't level it."
Funny, I don't see you advocating these, and yet it's the exact same situation.
I'm curious if any other class is treated this way in your games?
I'm ok with different ideas on when and how a character receive his bonus for leveling, but it seems very unfair to target this class if you don't require clerics and paladins to return to their churches and others to spend equal amounts of time and hassle to gain their level benefits.
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A problem with this is that alchemist extracts do have a casting time, and that casting time is "standard action."
Keep in mind, this even goes for alchemist only extracts. If they weren't meant to be treated as spells with a standard action, why are they written as one?
Also, the whole "Well you need to sneak into civilization" thing is just asinine. "I'm sorry Joe, but because the last adventure was in the city, your ranger didn't gain any experience." "I'm sorry Suzy, but your wizard is too far away from their tower; until you leave the dungeon and find a library, you can't level it."
Funny, I don't see you advocating these, and yet it's the exact same situation.
The Alchemist needing at least minimal contact with civilization would only be necessary in a common-sense, story-telling type game.
You can do whatever you want in don't-hand-me-any-restrictions, battle map, Munchkin Land.
And if you can point out the passage in the rules that states that retrieving and ingesting an extract is a standard action, you can put this debate to rest.
Since no one at Paizo seems to care to.
And the thread gets burning again!
Personally, when someone brought up Barbarian/Alchemist, my first thought was a Dwarven Brewmaster concept. Kinda like the basic concept of the "Battlerager" from older editions.
He brews himself up some 'crazy juice' and then goes out and Rages in combat.
I fail to see how this is an invalid concept. Sure, its unusual. That doesn't mean it can't be done though. IMO, a Barbarian doesn't just mean folks who live in the wilderness. Frontier, sure, but they're not always savages.
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I'm curious if any other class is treated this way in your games?
I'm ok with different ideas on when and how a character receive his bonus for leveling, but it seems very unfair to target this class if you don't require clerics and paladins to return to their churches and others to spend equal amounts of time and hassle to gain their level benefits.
Sure, in the interest of storytelling and character themes, I might have different classes jump through particular hoops.
But I'm talking about an open campaign and not Adventure Paths or PFS.
I'm not saying that a character should not have to access resources to gain benefits of leveling, I'm wondering If other classes have to do this as well.
I'm an excellent RP and my current character is by no means a min/max munchkin character. My personal thoughts are that there does not have to be this requirement if your role playing the character to fit the concept. If it's a city boy off adventuring that learned form a master then sure, but if its someone who failed at becoming a wizard/sorcerer but was great at making potions and such and learned on his own then i see no need for him to rely on anyone else.
side note: for balance reasons i would require the sorcerer to spend an equal time to the alchemist for leveling training. The sorcerer would be meditating or practicing drawing upon a level of power she is not accustomed to and working on controlling it.
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I'm not saying that a character should not have to access resources to gain benefits of leveling, I'm wondering If other classes have to do this as well.
I'm an excellent RP and my current character is by no means a min/max munchkin character. My personal thoughts are that there does not have to be this requirement if your role playing the character to fit the concept. If it's a city boy off adventuring that learned form a master then sure, but if its someone who failed at becoming a wizard/sorcerer but was great at making potions and such and learned on his own then i see no need for him to rely on anyone else.
side note: for balance reasons i would require the sorcerer to spend an equal time to the alchemist for leveling training. The sorcerer would be meditating or practicing drawing upon a level of power she is not accustomed to and working on controlling it.
I think one of my posts got eaten or something.
But, yeah, for the sake of storytelling and character themes, I wouldn't see any problem with making different classes jump through particular hoops.
But I'm talking about an open campaign and not Adventure Paths or PFS.
As for the Alchemist going totally primitive and tribal, fine. But maybe he doesn't get to choose from all the discoveries or maybe there is a level cap... (Or maybe he makes a discovery that no one else has.) I just think he has to find a way to keep minimally updated on other Alchemists' work.
But obviously I'm not saying this is a rule that everyone else should follow. I just think it makes sense.
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Once again this:
An alchemist can use folk medicine to create his potions. He can get the materials he needs through herbs and such. The formula he uses could be descriptions of what type of plants to gather. Is this different from the pseudo-science feel you get from the alchemist? Yes! Is it invalid because it is? No...
Bombs = acorns with chemicals inserted that were distilled from the natural wildlife. Mutagens are poisonous but potent chemicals that the shaman has learned to ingest without suffering the poisonous effects though he couldn't share them no matter how hard he tried. He could make Infusions in order to be the tribes medicine man as he prepares potions and extracts prepare the brave warriors about to enter combat. And finally he could of been a barbarian for a good portion of his life but as he aged and his body became to weak to continue fighting on the front line, he turned to 'alchemy' and became the tribe's medicine man. For the younger character variant perhaps the medicine man saw this young barbarians natural talent (you only need to have 16 int for a full-fledged alchemist and if you're going half and half only need a 14 in order to get the highest possible level of extracts you would reach) and took him aside to due teach him how to make these potions.
And hell the "drunken brute" barbarian may not be a drunk at all but instead just learned that technique because he was also the tribes potions maker and if he was caught in trouble, he needed a way to quickly get ready through self buffing.
This game (and this particular example) is an exercise in imagination Kortz, and it's not a particularly difficult one. I ask that you actually try to figure out a concept before you completely throw it out for rubbish.
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This game (and this particular example) is an exercise in imagination Kortz, and it's not a particularly difficult one. I ask that you actually try to figure out a concept before you completely throw it out for rubbish.
My problem with it was that the original idea was not an act of imagination. It was: I want to my standard action to be a move action so I'm going to combine this class with that class without much thought.
If you want to push the envelope and make a great story, fine. The concept you just put together is much different(and better)than, "I don't like Alchemist mechanics, so I'm going to throw in a little Drunken Brute so I can get my extracts off faster."
What I'm arguing against is letting optimal mechanics rule over the spirit and theme of the character.
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I understand this and I'm sorry if I insulted you. My impression was such that you discounted this possibility. I still believe that the trait Accelerated Drinker should apply myself but I also believe in the entire move action to draw the extract and standard to drink. Plus alchemists do have a little bit to offset that issue itself with the entire double extract (sure it costs a higher level extract but sometimes that can be worth it).
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I understand this and I'm sorry if I insulted you. My impression was such that you discounted this possibility. I still believe that the trait Accelerated Drinker should apply myself but I also believe in the entire move action to draw the extract and standard to drink. Plus alchemists do have a little bit to offset that issue itself with the entire double extract (sure it costs a higher level extract but sometimes that can be worth it).
No worries. I don't think we actually disagree on anything.
Literally ban everyone who makes the "Well, see, I'm a ROLEPLAYER, heh" argument from the entire internet forever.
Look at that the ratio of intelligent conversations has sky rocketed.
There is no more incorrect and grognardy thing to say in the world
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A problem with this is that alchemist extracts do have a casting time, and that casting time is "standard action."
Keep in mind, this even goes for alchemist only extracts. If they weren't meant to be treated as spells with a standard action, why are they written as one?
Assuming this were the case how would this apply when other people drink your extracts as infusions? You spend a standard action while they drink it? Do they get to draw it as a free action also? Can they use accelerated drinker with it.
If an alchemist infuses an extract for others does it act differently when he drinks it?
Since alchemists are apparently casters again do they have to deal with concentration?
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The Stormwind Fallacy? Really? C'mon, guys. Do I need to quote it? I feel that I do.
Just for the record, I have no problem with optimizing characters, and I have not used the words "role player" once in this thread or on these boards.
But I do think it's okay to live with class limitations that make sense, specifically the Alchemist's extracts functioning like potions. (And I also made the mistake of suggesting that Alchemists might need to keep in touch with civilization every once in a while.)
For the sake of board harmony, I shouldn't have called anyone a munchkin, but the Professor's constant hysteria wore me down.
I removed an offensive and anatomically improbable post.
LOL sorry Ross, it was entirely too open. At least I didn't start it with "Gentlemen, lend me your rears...."
edit -- glad he said improbable. The internet...what has been seen cannot be unseen...
The Stormwind Fallacy? Really? C'mon, guys. Do I need to quote it? I feel that I do.Just for the record, I have no problem with optimizing characters, and I have not used the words "role player" once in this thread or on these boards.
But I do think it's okay to live with class limitations that make sense, specifically the Alchemist's extracts functioning like potions. (And I also made the mistake of suggesting that Alchemists might need to keep in touch with civilization every once in a while.)
For the sake of board harmony, I shouldn't have called anyone a munchkin, but the Professor's constant hysteria wore me down.
Answer my questions.
Do you force other classes to take experience or leveling penalties?
How do you deal with characters who make alchemists that would not require a "constant flow of civilization?"
Why does an alchemist require a link to civilization to increase his level?
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Answer my questions.
Do you force other classes to take experience or leveling penalties?
How do you deal with characters who make alchemists that would not require a "constant flow of civilization?"
Why does an alchemist require a link to civilization to increase his level?
Look, you seem kind of unbalanced to me and more interested in maintaining an image of constant infallible correctness than in having a conversation about something. You also say things hiding behind the internet that you wouldn't in a million years say to my face. You put words in people's mouths to the extent of even using quotation marks like it was something they actually said. I don't know what your deal is, but I am not interested in playing.
One last time, for anyone else interested, if I were running an open campaign and one of the PCs or NPCs was a formally trained Alchemist who had wandered off into the wilderness for an extended period of time, I might make it part of the campaign that he had to occasionally keep abreast of the developments made by fellow Alchemists if he wanted access to all levels and all discoveries. I might impose other like requirements on other characters. Who knows? It's a game. No big deal. I'm not choking to death whatever character you have in whatever game you are currently playing.
It's just, like, my opinion, man.
Good day.
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One last time, for anyone else interested, if I were running an open campaign and one of the PCs or NPCs was a formally trained Alchemist who had wandered off into the wilderness for an extended period of time, I might make it part of the campaign that he had to occasionally keep abreast of the developments made by fellow Alchemists if he wanted access to all levels and all discoveries. I might impose other like requirements on other characters. Who knows? It's a game. No big deal. I'm not choking to death whatever character you have in whatever game you are currently playing.It's just, like, my opinion, man.
Good day.
But what if the alchemist in question is the first to discover these discoveries? Through his research while out in the woods? I could happen that way!
Another issue with your reasoning is once you apply it to one class, you HAVE to sit down and figure out how it works for EVERY OTHER CLASS. You cant just single out one class like that. And you're now entering house rule territory, because your thinking is not supported by the RAW. Nothing wrong with that at all, mind you, you play the game how you want to. I'm just saying I strongly disagree with you, and its obvious now we cannot change each other's minds :)
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But what if the alchemist in question is the first to discover these discoveries? Through his research while out in the woods? I could happen that way!
Another issue with your reasoning is once you apply it to one class, you HAVE to sit down and figure out how it works for EVERY OTHER CLASS. You cant just single out one class like that. And you're now entering house rule territory, because your thinking is not supported by the RAW. Nothing wrong with that at all, mind you, you play the game how you want to. I'm just saying I strongly disagree with you, and its obvious now we cannot change each other's minds :)
Yeah, I mentioned earlier in the thread that if the Alchemist was very isolated he might make a discovery that no one else has.
And, yeah, I'm talking about how I would run my own open campaign. Figuring out how it applies to every class might be fun and make for some interesting adventures.
If I were running anything totally by-the-book, I don't think this would come up.
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Yeah, I mentioned earlier in the thread that if the Alchemist was very isolated he might make a discovery that no one else has.And, yeah, I'm talking about how I would run my own open campaign. Figuring out how it applies to every class might be fun and make for some interesting adventures.
If I were running anything totally by-the-book, I don't think this would come up.
Fair enough, Im sorry for misinterpreting what you were going for. I thought you were trying to argue thats how it should be, my fault. And really, if you sit down and do it for every class, then I dont have as much of an issue with that as well. It just at first appeared you were singling out one class. I do 100% agree it could make for some interesting adventures for characters if you sat down and figured that stuff out!
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I'm looking at the intent behind the trait. The intent was to spend half a feat to make you faster at drinking potions.
Booze? Extract? These were not part of char classes at the time, and not considered.
Previous rules need to be reconsidered when later rules are made.
An extract is to be consumed like a potion? I would rule in my game that said trait WOULD let you consume the extract as a move action.
You are uncorking the flask, and pouring it down your gullet.
I would NOT say that this trait allows you faster use of Skull Talismans or some other form or Potion-In-Other-Form. Though I would encourage my player to create one, if they used such non-liquid-"potions" frequently. But that one wouldn't apply to liquid potions either.
I expect errata on this.
Answer my questions.
Do you force other classes to take experience or leveling penalties?
How do you deal with characters who make alchemists that would not require a "constant flow of civilization?"
Why does an alchemist require a link to civilization to increase his level?
Look, you seem kind of unbalanced to me and more interested in maintaining an image of constant infallible correctness than in having a conversation about something. You also say things hiding behind the internet that you wouldn't in a million years say to my face. You put words in people's mouths to the extent of even using quotation marks like it was something they actually said. I don't know what your deal is, but I am not interested in playing.
One last time, for anyone else interested, if I were running an open campaign and one of the PCs or NPCs was a formally trained Alchemist who had wandered off into the wilderness for an extended period of time, I might make it part of the campaign that he had to occasionally keep abreast of the developments made by fellow Alchemists if he wanted access to all levels and all discoveries. I might impose other like requirements on other characters. Who knows? It's a game. No big deal. I'm not choking to death whatever character you have in whatever game you are currently playing.
It's just, like, my opinion, man.
Good day.
So in order:
offhand insult
1) No
2) I cannot
3) I have no reasoning
You made the comment that alchemists had to do these things. When people pointed out "Hah hah wow, that's dumb." you called them munchkins. Lo and behold, you can't defend your own statements.
But what if the alchemist in question is the first to discover these discoveries? Through his research while out in the woods? I could happen that way!
Another issue with your reasoning is once you apply it to one class, you HAVE to sit down and figure out how it works for EVERY OTHER CLASS. You cant just single out one class like that. And you're now entering house rule territory, because your thinking is not supported by the RAW. Nothing wrong with that at all, mind you, you play the game how you want to. I'm just saying I strongly disagree with you, and its obvious now we cannot change each other's minds :)
Yeah, I mentioned earlier in the thread that if the Alchemist was very isolated he might make a discovery that no one else has.
And, yeah, I'm talking about how I would run my own open campaign. Figuring out how it applies to every class might be fun and make for some interesting adventures.
If I were running anything totally by-the-book, I don't think this would come up.
I too interpretted it at first as alchemists must do this or else its cheese. I've been in game swhere all classes were required to spend time "studying" when they are ready toi level and thats interesteing , and works better for non AP's.
My alchemist actually had no formal teacher, she elarned how to brew potions and all about poisons from her mother, who was a witch. She had some arcane talent, it runs in the family after all her sister is also a witch. She never was able to cast a spell though, but was able to take ehr knowledge of spells and potions and put some of that small magical talent of hers into her unique potions (extracts and mutagens) I RP this by having her constantly collecting bits from various monsters and plants. She "experiments" in her down time
Holy crap, I didn't know that my comment about the Drunken Brute/Alchemist would start so many arguments. I guess that'll teach me to stop thinking of interesting and effective class combinations.
heh trust me they were arguing long before you posted that ;)
One point that seemed to get lost very quickly was that he had to have it in his hand to start the round. I don't know about you, but that sounds like someone just begging for a sunder, disarm, or the steal maneuver from the APG if the enemy can get in position. That by itself takes a lot of the power out of the accelerated drinker/alchemist extracts in my opinion. If I were an alchemist I would be very hesitant to risk an extract in that manner, especially at lower levels where the number of extracts per day is going to be severely limited. A potion at least is comparatively replaceable. For that much risk, reducing the move-standard combo to drink an extract to a move-move combo (with enemies attacking in between the 2 moves) spread out over 2 rounds doesn't really sound that over powered.
from the text exactly,
" An Alchemist can draw and drink an extract as a standard action"page 27 end of first paragraph in the second column.
Did you necro my thread for a particular reason ? or did ya just want to stir up this hornets nest again :)
In case you haven't seen it good ole Sean put this one to bed
Does the Accelerated Drinker feat from Cheliax, Empire of Devils allow a character to drink an alchemist extract as a move action?
No.
—Sean K Reynolds, 10/09/10