What the HELL.
Selective Spell (Metamagic)
Your allies need not fear friendly fire.
Prerequisite: Spellcraft 10 ranks.
Benefit: When casting a selective spell with an area effect, you can choose a number of targets in the area equal to the ability score modifier used to determine bonus spells of the same type (Charisma for bards, oracles, paladins, sorcerers, and summoners; Intelligence for witches and wizards; Wisdom for clerics, druids, inquisitors, and rangers). These targets are excluded from the effects of your spell. A selective spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.
Spells that do not have an area of effect do not benefit from this featSelective Antimagic Field. You are your own ally. Congratulations! You've just given yourself immunity to magic.
What's more, this is a KNOWN PROBLEM. The "Cheater of Mystra" has been a known problem with "exclude allies from your spells" since at least 2004.
What were you thinking?
This has been suggested a number of times. Personally I have no problem with a caster doing this, with the understanding that a lot of magical effects have to traverse distances and an anti-magic field would still affect disintegrate rays and meteor swarms as they crossed the distance to their targets. One could even make an argument that spells that don't have a visible energy signature crossing distances but instead rely on line-of-sight must have some sort of magical connection between the caster and the area of effect, which could be disrupted by the anti-magic field.
Plenty of ways to make this not a game-breaking use of the feat. Sure, the caster can self-buff while preventing enemies from casting anything, while his fighter ally is still able to hit the baddies with his magic sword. A nasty ability, but not really over-powering for a 7th level wizard slot (or 9th level cleric slot).
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Agreed with Nazard. It's a good strategy, to be sure, but not a broken one, and intelligent opponents which are played correctly will probably realize that something is up and alter their strategy accordingly.
It's probably up to the individual GM, but I would personally rule that any effect requiring line of sight involves a direct connection from you to the target. Antimagic fields in the way disrupt the spell, cutting this feats' effectiveness to good (but again, not broken) AoE spells and self targeting buffs.
Not much else to see here.
For the record, I'm on board with "too strong!".
However, Selective Spell only makes the targets immune to the effects of the spell. It doesn't make spells cast by the targets immune to the effects of the spell. So you can improved-donut-AMF yourself, but you still can't cast disintegrate out of it. Or rather, you can, but the green beam poofs out of existence the instant it is created, because it is created inside the anti-magic field.
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Does Selective Obscuring Mist the selected targets' LOS? Why or why not? Why does AMF work differently (other than the fact that it's gamebreaking so nerf it)?
Because obscuring mist summons clouds which are difficult to see through. If there are no clouds in your 5 foot square, but there are clouds in the rest of the AoE, they block line of sight. You aren't directly affected, but the feat doesn't give you the ability to magically see through the mist. Just the ability to not have it in your own face.
I'm sure I'm wasting my time; I've seen your style of forum 'discussion' and won't feed the thread. Just chiming in with my vote of, "Meh, nothing special."
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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It's not even your square that's unaffected. It's just you personally (and/or other selected creatures).
You can move around and do whatever you like and the "selective" effect is suppressed inasmuch as it touches or affects your person.
The AMF still surrounds you in every direction and blocks your line of effect with antimagic, so any spell you cast that affects anything but yourself does nothing, EXCEPT a magical effect you can deliver by physical contact to another excluded creature.
Any cover, concealment, or barrier effect that is between you and a target still has its normal effect on anything that travels between you and the target.
Y'know, maybe I'm just reading it weird, but antimagic field says it suppresses but doesn't dispel spells cast into it. That sounds to me like you could cast across an antimagic field, as long as the target isn't inside the field itself - your disintegrate ray would fly to the edge of the field, disappear, then reappear on the other side and keep going until it hit something or ran out of its range.
If that's the case, then making an antimagic "donut" around yourself isn't such a bright idea. Sure, it'll suppress the magic items of people who try to stab you, but you could still be cast on - the field doesn't affect you, so it doesn't protect you either, it just gives a little dot in the middle where spell effects, which aren't dispelled, only suppressed, will actually have their normal effect.
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How is blocking your line of sight not affecting you? Where's the list of effects that still affect you despite the fact that the feat says "These targets are excluded from the effects of your spell"?The AMF still surrounds you in every direction and blocks your line of effect with antimagic, so any spell you cast that affects anything but yourself does nothing, EXCEPT a magical effect you can deliver by physical contact to another excluded creature.
Any cover, concealment, or barrier effect that is between you and a target still has its normal effect on anything that travels between you and the target.
The spells you cast are not you, the items you wear and buffs on you are an extension of you and thus are protected, but this does not extend further than that. The moment a spell attempts to leave the infinitely thin protective bubble around you they become their own entity and thus subject to the anti-magic field, causing them to wink out.
EDIT: They were referring to it blocking the spell's ability to LoS a target, not yours. Since it started at you, and ended at the opponent it had to travel through the barrier of spell-death and couldn't have worked.|
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The spells you cast are not you, the items you wear and buffs on you are an extension of you and thus are protected, but this does not extend further than that. The moment a spell attempts to leave the infinitely thin protective bubble around you they become their own entity and thus subject to the anti-magic field, causing them to wink out.That's reasonable for spells which are projectiles. But there are lots of spells you can cast through glass walls. Why does a spell which explicitly does not affect me stop me from casting Flesh to Stone normally on a target I can see perfectly well?
1) See my edit (timing sucks, huh? ;) )
2) It isn't affecting you, it's affecting your spell. Gear and self-buffs are considered part of your self, so they aren't affected, but this does not extend further than that, so any non-self spell could be effected depending on how a DM interprets LoS-based magic (ie, does it travel through the intervening space, or do you somehow make it happen starting and ending entirely outside the field).
The spells you cast are not you, the items you wear and buffs on you are an extension of you and thus are protected, but this does not extend further than that. The moment a spell attempts to leave the infinitely thin protective bubble around you they become their own entity and thus subject to the anti-magic field, causing them to wink out.That's reasonable for spells which are projectiles. But there are lots of spells you can cast through glass walls. Why does a spell which explicitly does not affect me stop me from casting Flesh to Stone normally on a target I can see perfectly well?
Uh, AMiB, that logic follows through for an un-Selective anti-magic field, too.
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The AMF still surrounds you in every direction and blocks your line of effect with antimagic, so any spell you cast that affects anything but yourself does nothing, EXCEPT a magical effect you can deliver by physical contact to another excluded creature.
Would your touch spells even work since the target is in an AMF?
Selective AMF + Invisibility Sphere = Oops I accidentally your whole Bestiary except for enemies with ex blindsense/blindsight.
No. All spells (with the exception of certain spells that explicitly state otherwise, such as prismatic sphere) are suppressed while within the area of an antimagic field. That includes invisibility sphere.
Uh, AMiB, that logic follows through for an un-Selective anti-magic field, too.No it doesn't. One of the effects of the spell is that it blocks LOS for spellcasting. Unless you're Selected to be immune to the effects of the spell, you are affected by that effect.
Incorrect. Please go read antimagic field again. It does not block LoS for spellcasting. It suppresses magic within its area. It doesn't even block spellcasting. It only suppresses magic within its area.
Anyhoo, we're still at this.
An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it.You're immune to this effect, so your spells aren't suppressed.
Unless you're not immune to this effect, in which case where's the list of things that you're not immune to?
YOU are immune to the antimagic field. Your spells are not. Your spells are not you. It is only the target(s) selected as part of the Selective Spell feat that are immune to the effects of the spell. Technically I suppose you could target an already-existing spell with the feat, since it doesn't technically say what are valid targets, but I'd say that gets pretty far from the intent of the feat.
YOU are immune to the antimagic field. Your spells are not. Your spells are not you. It is only the target(s) selected as part of the Selective Spell feat that are immune to the effects of the spell. Technically I suppose you could target an already-existing spell with the feat, since it doesn't technically say what are valid targets, but I'd say that gets pretty far from the intent of the feat.For one, [citation needed]? Since when is a spell on you not part of you? If you're immune to Dispel Magic, does that mean all the spells on you aren't, and that Dispel Magic can still counterspell your spells because hey, the spell isn't you? Plus, you've suddenly ruled that a Selective Fireball can still wreck your party members' clothing and gear, because those are separate legal targets, too. I hope your wizard has really, really high int. The implications of your claim are incoherent.
Nope. Equipment specifically is immune to the effects of anything that isn't targetted directly at them, and furthermore uses their current owner's saves. It's clear that your gear is an extension of yourself.
Spells don't get the same consideration.
Not only that, but the feat is still broken! "I choose as the excluded targets of this AMF: myself and the Invisibility Field on me."
I ask you to read the very first sentence I wrote in this thread.
A selective spell excludes certain creatures from its effects.
Technically not true, assuming AMiB's first post in this thread contains the correct wording of the feat. Selective Spell excludes a number of "targets", not "target creatures". So, objects, creatures, and spells are all validly excludable.
So how does a Selective Wall of Iron work?
It doesn't. Wall of iron doesn't have an Area.
Yep, and again, I'm on record as saying I think Selective Spell is too strong. The Archmage arcana it was based on was pretty well balanced; all it did was remove squares from the effect of a spell. That prevented shenanigans and rules debates about things like this, while still making it very, very useful.
I'm wondering if the feat is missing a line, stating that it can only be applied to spells with a duration of instantaneous (fireballs, lightning bolts, etc.).
What the HELL.
Selective Spell (Metamagic)
Your allies need not fear friendly fire.
Prerequisite: Spellcraft 10 ranks.
Benefit: When casting a selective spell with an area effect, you can choose a number of targets in the area equal to the ability score modifier used to determine bonus spells of the same type (Charisma for bards, oracles, paladins, sorcerers, and summoners; Intelligence for witches and wizards; Wisdom for clerics, druids, inquisitors, and rangers). These targets are excluded from the effects of your spell. A selective spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.
Spells that do not have an area of effect do not benefit from this featSelective Antimagic Field. You are your own ally. Congratulations! You've just given yourself immunity to magic.
What's more, this is a KNOWN PROBLEM. The "Cheater of Mystra" has been a known problem with "exclude allies from your spells" since at least 2004.
What were you thinking?
While I won't speak to the rules issue, I'd just like to point out that starting a thread with "What the HELL. What were you thinking?" isn't generally the best way to get Paizo staff to pay attention to you.
While I won't speak to the rules issue, I'd just like to point out that starting a thread with "What the HELL. What were you thinking?" isn't generally the best way to get Paizo staff to pay attention to you.Is this advice, or a moderator comment?
My guess is, "Yes".
:p
That is an effect which is an area. How is that not an area effect?
In the same way that a summon monster summons a creature that is a target, yet the spell isn't a Target spell, it's an Effect spell.
Okay. So where would I go about finding that in the rules, instead of needing to ask the developers personally what they meant?
Individual spells are pretty clear at stating whether they're Area, Effect, or Target.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Why is AMS a big deal? it still doesn't break Line of effect.
Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It’s like line of sight for ranged
weapons, except that it’s not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.
You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.
The spell makes you immune to its effects. It does nothing for the space around you. So as soon as your flesh to stone is cast, you don't have line of effect to the target as the squares between you and the target have an AMS in them.
You're really angry about this? Dude, chill. There are thousands of posts on these boards asking for clarification about a spell or rule, without being angry. Thousands of people disagreeing with stuff, without being angry.My guess is, "Yes".
:p
Well, let me put a finer point on it, then.
If it's advice, then bear in mind that angry people are people who care about the products enough to feel emotionally about them. You don't see me posting on, say, Battletech or Exalted forums because those are games I don't like and thus don't care enough about to post. If you're ignoring people who are angry, then you are only listening to people who are content and/or only listening to people who have given up entirely (and you won't get many comments from the latter).
If it's a moderator comment that heated threads are unwelcome, then that's fair enough, I just won't post those threads at all. Paizo's house, Paizo's rules.
I like it when he's angry.
Why is AMS a big deal? it still doesn't break Line of effect.
The spell makes you immune to its effects. It does nothing for the space around you. So as soon as your flesh to stone is cast, you don't have line of effect to the target as the squares between you and the target have an AMS in them.Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It’s like line of sight for ranged
weapons, except that it’s not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.
You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.
Antimagic field does not block line of effect or line of sight. Further, spells like stone to flesh do not require line of effect.
That said, Selective Spell doesn't actually change anything about the interaction between antimagic field and casting spells.
Gotta love the semantics here. :)Individual spells are pretty clear at stating whether they're Area, Effect, or Target.So a spell that affects an area is an area effect spell, but a spell with an effect that covers a certain area isn't.
I think MiB is trying to make a point because he knows at some point someone will try to ask a question in the rules sub-forum to "game the system"*. I while back the idea of casting spells you don't have access to was attempted, among other things. If he can bring heat on the issue now the rule can be clarified or it can be errata'd. I have a new player in my group now, and there are things that are hard to understand if you have not been playing for a while.
*I know sometimes the misunderstanding is valid, but at other times.....
If it's a moderator comment that heated threads are unwelcome, then that's fair enough, I just won't post those threads at all. Paizo's house, Paizo's rules.
I think it was a comment on how an aggressive, confrontational post (heated if you like) will likely annoy the people that you are seeking a response from, make them less likely to be as objective as they would normally be and as such, less likely to see any merit in your arguments.
Why is AMS a big deal? it still doesn't break Line of effect.
The spell makes you immune to its effects. It does nothing for the space around you. So as soon as your flesh to stone is cast, you don't have line of effect to the target as the squares between you and the target have an AMS in them.Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It’s like line of sight for ranged
weapons, except that it’s not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.
You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.Antimagic field does not block line of effect or line of sight. Further, spells like stone to flesh do not require line of effect.
That said, Selective Spell doesn't actually change anything about the interaction between antimagic field and casting spells.
So if your antimagic field is 10 feet in diameter, and someone is 15 feet away then you cast spells on them, and they can cast spells on you as long as they don't have to travel through the antimagic area like a ray would?
Examples of spells that could affect you or the enemy would be hold person, and power word kill?