
![]() |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |

Mild Age of Ashes & Extinction Curse spoilers ahoy!
Hopefully, me censoring W*ndigo was enough to pique your curiosity into reading this thread. Regardless, with how TTRPGs are looking at cultural and racial sensitivity lately, I wanted to bring up an elephant in the room that's been on my shoulders since Day 1 of getting the first Bestiary: the W*ndigo.
I'll be clear: I'm white as snow! I'm hailing from Ireland, the closest I've come to interacting with the First Nations is dating a Canadian. That being said, using your platform, etc etc, this is something I feel we as a community (and if possible, one Paizo can weigh in on eventually, especially now that they're hiring sensitivity readers) should discuss.
The long and short is the W*ndigo is a HUGE part of Algonquian culture, even today. This isn't some random critter from folklore, it's an extremely serious topic that, for the most part, is trivialised and turned into another good ol' fashioned Monster of the Week by the rest of the world. Granted, the PF version has more inspiration from Blackwood's novel than from folklore, but even saying the name of the creature is considered taboo. I was hoping Paizo might change the name and some features to make it into a creature inspired by the folklore but seperate enough to be respectful of Algonquian culture. It was honestly a surprise to get to its page in the Bestiary when I first opened it, full name right there, considering Paizo tends to be on the ball with sensitivity lately. I was willing to drop it (whatever! I just won't use it!), but now both Adventure Paths in 2e have at least one W*ndigo encounter, one of which is pretty important. It's getting harder to avoid the topic, so I'm bringing it up now.
How do we approach this situation? What alternatives are there, in name or in spirit? And how do we do this in a way most respectful of the cultures this figure was, unfortunately, trivialised from?

Captain Morgan |

Would simply changing the name and art be enough to make it usable? I ask because the creature has a lot of unique mechanics and it would be a shame to lose them. I'm not familiar enough with the culture to say if those mechanics are based off anything there.
If the mechanics are ok, you should be able to replace the name and art with your players being none the wiser. Doesn't address it with Paizo, but it is something.

Temperans |
10 people marked this as a favorite. |
I will say after reading the lore of Pathfinder Wendigos and at least the Wikipedia page on them, Paizo appears to have done a good job at representing the folklore version (as far as I have read).
The deacription ia very close. The way it attacks is close. They are both supernatural beings but can also be regular people. The location and reason of where they appear are similar.
They have removed the Wendigo Psychosis terminology.
However, they still do have the evil spirit relationship. Which honestly makes sense even in relation with the folklore (again as far as I have read).
***********************
Btw are we also going to change Vampires because not all vampires are like Norferatu? Or how about all the other mythological creatures, like you know: Gnomes, Undine, Ifrit, Sylphs, Elfs, Dwarves, Angels, Dragons, etc.?

Albatoonoe |
6 people marked this as a favorite. |

I'm of two minds on this issue. On one hand, I deeply do want to respect cultures and traditions in the world. I am aware of the issue cultural appropriation and how poorly the Native Americans have been treated by both Canada and the United States.
On the other hand, this is not a unique issue with regards to the Wendigo and their culture. Every culture gets the same treatment in this arena. Golems, Dybbuk, Angels, and Demons are all drawn from active real world beliefs. Same with so much of the monsters and folkloric elements. That is what this game is at the end of the day. A melting pot homage to mythology, folklore, and beliefs from around the world.
Of course, I speak from a place of some privilege as a white American. I really don't want to come down on either side of the issue right now because I really don't know what is the best path to take here. These issues are definitely complicated and take a deft hand to approach. I do not envy Paizo in having to address these issues with compassion.

Temperans |
4 people marked this as a favorite. |
WatersLethe wrote:Same thing with Skinwalkers and Navajo.Same thing with like half the bestiary if you really want to get into it.
Yep the majority of monster are based in some way or form on the IRL folklore, memes, stories, myth, etc. They would have to rewrite the entire bestiary with new monsters if they were to change all of those.
Specially since removing the name and description would also result in them being White washed. A Damned if you do damned if you dont situation.

lemeres |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |

One novel I remember reading is "The Antelope Wife".
It is a Native American novel focused on modern social and cultural issues. Towards the end of the novel, the concept of the Wendigo was used as a metaphor for a kind of 'social vampire', so to speak.
You know the kind of person. That friend or relative that maybe has a drinking problem, or at least has problems with staying committed and present. They might also have anger issues, or they get into trouble with the law. Maybe it is an ex that gets back together with you, or a father that wants to make amends, but when they come back into your life, you both constantly fight and have various other issues. They often come around to ask for help, but when you help them, they are a major issue that places a drain on your life, and you might not see them make any progress, or even attempts at progress. they ask and ask, and you give and give, but you get nothing in return.
In this work, the wendigo was closely connected to individuals with psychological issues (and it is closely connected to this idea in the original myth and psychiatric condition due to people suffering from survivor's guilt). And it also was used to demonstrate the cyclical nature of such issues because the stress this person places on their family can lead to others falling into their own cycles of stress and depression.
The novel is a great read. If you could intertwine the encounter into a long term story line touching on these kinds of issues, then I feel that it is still possible to use the creature with some degree of consideration and care.
...of course, in the D&D family tree, most monsters are used like potato chips- slightly different flavors, but you eat them by the dozens without much emotional effect. They are inherently disposable most of the time.

Alyran |
6 people marked this as a favorite. |

So cultural appropriation as a bad thing is probably the toughest thing for me to wrap my head around. Mostly due to the conflicting standards I've heard in relation to it.
Sometimes it's "don't use our things in insulting, mocking or otherwise insensitive ways." Other times it's "no, you can't touch that, that's our thing and any attempt to copy (respectfully or otherwise) or create your own version is hostile."
Now, I admittedly have little attachment to any side of my heritage, so I don't have much stake in this. However, I would appreciate if someone could explain what the actual problem here is. I know there's the "wendigo psychosis" controversy, but that doesn't seem present here at all.

PossibleCabbage |

Doesn't the Pathfinder version of this monster have more to do with the original source (where it was an allegorical monster to make clear the danger of being selfish in times of need) than most representations of it in popular culture?
Like the point of the creature in its original context is to underline things like "no matter how hungry you are, don't eat people FFS" backing up the common taboo with a supernatural context.
The main problem is that the "undead deer monster" design has almost nothing to do with how the creature was conceived of in its original context (which was like a giant with a heart of ice and no lips).
But from an etic perspective the "these people do not even say the name of the thing" generally is disregarded (though it is respected in an emic perspective.) Like Orthodox Jews never write "God" (preferring "G*d") but people who are not operating in an Orthodox Jewish context are not generally expected to use the asterisk.

Temperans |
@PossibleCabbage
Pathfinder actually has many different versions of Wendigo mostly depending on the environment. The head is representative in some way of the local environment that the wendigo was created, Elk head is the default art.
Also, the only differences from what I read and the pathfinder version is the animal head, the ability to wind walk, and the fact the victim runs into the sky fast enough to burn off their legs.
The giant thing depends on the tribe. Could be explain by a wendigo made from a giant. Or because the mind makes scary things seem bigger then they are.

![]() |
9 people marked this as a favorite. |

Speaking as a hard polytheist pagan, and someone with at least one friend who believes in the Khemetic pantheon (ie: the Egyptian deities), I've never found Paizo's depictions of deities from real-world religions offensive and neither did my friend. But we were aware of them. They're primarily treated with as much respect as you can when making game stats for things like that. Ditto depictions of mythological creatures in which I believe or are part of my own cultural heritage (the fey take a lot from Irish culture, for example).
I obviously can't speak for any Native American people playing Pathfinder in regards to this specific creature, but in a game that borrows so liberally from every real world religion, I don't believe that using any particular creature should ever be a problem in and of itself. Now, if the depiction is not properly reflective of the real world mythological basis, that's another matter, but I'm not at all clear whether that's the case here, and I don't think just having a real-world mythological creature included should be an issue in and of itself.
Now, the name 'skinwalker' was a problem...because it was used for a very different creature than the one that is properly mythologically associated with, which is a rather different and separate issue. As I understand it, they've gotten rid of that terminology going forward for precisely that reason.

![]() |
6 people marked this as a favorite. |

From my understanding, the problem is that wendigo and skinwalker are religious term from still living minority religions that get persecuted by majority in their own countries. And worse they don't usually get represented faithfully, like wendigo are often portrayed as yeti like snow monsters.
Like, having angels and devils isn't really that harmful since Christianity is majority religion in West, but native american beliefs are persecuted in America, so its considered rude because of that.

![]() |
4 people marked this as a favorite. |

From my understanding, the problem is that wendigo and skinwalker are religious term from still living minority religions that get persecuted by majority in their own countries. And worse they don't usually get represented faithfully, like wendigo are often portrayed as yeti like snow monsters.
Again, as a member of a minority faith that gets persecuted in large portions of the country (luckily, not where I live for the most part), I think it's fair to say this about a fairly large percentage of the monsters in Pathfinder, just in regards to various different minority faiths.
I can't speak to being an ethnic or cultural minority, but I can definitely speak to being a religious one. And speaking as such a person, I see no problem with such depictions as long as the depiction is relatively close to the version espoused by the actual religion.

![]() |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |

CorvusMask wrote:From my understanding, the problem is that wendigo and skinwalker are religious term from still living minority religions that get persecuted by majority in their own countries. And worse they don't usually get represented faithfully, like wendigo are often portrayed as yeti like snow monsters.Again, as a member of a minority faith that gets persecuted in large portions of the country (luckily, not where I live for the most part), I think it's fair to say this about a fairly large percentage of the monsters in Pathfinder, just in regards to various different minority faiths.
I can't speak to being an ethnic or cultural minority, but I can definitely speak to being a religious one. And speaking as such a person, I see no problem with such depictions as long as the depiction is relatively close to the version espoused by the actual religion.
I do think that Khemetic faith example is different though, since that is religion that died out and was revived later based on interpretation of archaeologists and researchers, so its not exactly the same religion that myths are being adapted.
Like out of similar pagan revivals, I think Romuva has best claim to being continuation of same faith due to original religion lasting really long to the point there are good records of what the religion was like.
Well definition semantics aside, there is also concept of secret knowledge that only members of faith are supposed to know and share that is forbidden to be spoken of outside of it.

Malk_Content |
5 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think trying to cordon off the myths of minority religions is going to make them less accepted not more.
The amount of people who see the Wendigo in pf2 and end up learning more about the actual culture that inspired it is going to be greater than the amount of people somehow using it to further persecution.

![]() |

Now, the name 'skinwalker' was a problem...because it was used for a very different creature than the one that is properly mythologically associated with, which is a rather different and separate issue. As I understand it, they've gotten rid of that terminology going forward for precisely that reason.
As I understand it the plan was to basically chuck the whole lot and say they have all always just been werewolves etc (Which is kind of throwing the bay out with the bathwater IMHO if the name is the problem just change the name to werekin or shifter or something.)

![]() |
5 people marked this as a favorite. |

I do think that Khemetic faith example is different though, since that is religion that died out and was revived later based on interpretation of archaeologists and researchers, so its not exactly the same religion that myths are being adapted.
And?
If the issue here is disrespect, then anything that features a being someone sincerely believes actually exists is equally disrespectful (whether that's 'very' or 'not at all') if it treats said being with equal respect. Now, I'm happy to let others argue whether this specific depiction is respectful enough (it totally might not be, I'm not arguing one way or the other)...but the mere inclusion of a specific creature is exactly as disrespectful as the inclusion of creatures from other mythologies still believed in.
I'm not sure how the degree to which the people who currently believe in the being in question agree with people 500 years ago, or 3000 years ago, for that matter, is super relevant to whether their beliefs deserve to be treated with respect. All religions evolve and change with the times, after all, and all deserve respect.
Like out of similar pagan revivals, I think Romuva has best claim to being continuation of same faith due to original religion lasting really long to the point there are good records of what the religion was like.
Again, I'm not sure how this is really relevant to the subject of respect. Unless you think new religions are somehow inherently less worthy of respect, a position which I doubt you intend to suggest and which I firmly disagree with.
Well definition semantics aside, there is also concept of secret knowledge that only members of faith are supposed to know and share that is forbidden to be spoken of outside of it.
This is, indeed, a separate issue. I don't think it applies in this instance, though. I've certainly never heard that the mere mention of the creature in question outside the religion is taboo, even in critiques of the issues with its use.

![]() |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |

As I understand it the plan was to basically chuck the whole lot and say they have all always just been werewolves etc (Which is kind of throwing the bay out with the bathwater IMHO if the name is the problem just change the name to werekin or shifter or something.)
My understanding is that's one possibility, but the only thing they've definitively said is that the name is gone.

![]() |

Yeah I've done a fair bit of research into it, as I'm a hobbyist boardgame designer whose current project is a real world mythologies projected into a sci-fi setting deckbuildet, and the pf2 version of the Wendigo seems to be very solid. Even its torment is a moderately good representation of their influence.
Is this just a case of yet another white person with no actual knowledge of offence looking for some? We constantly talk about representation, and including parts of cultural history in our media, respectfully, is part of that.
I know how it can come across as that, but no. I've seen native voices on the topic in the past, and I guess the best I can get from the issue is that the naming of the W*ndigo is to Algonquian what depicting Mohammad is to Islam. You just don't do it. This isn't like fighting Devils, or creating Golems- both of those stem from active religions too, yes, but the Bible doesn't specifically say "never, ever say this things name"

![]() |

CorvusMask wrote:I do think that Khemetic faith example is different though, since that is religion that died out and was revived later based on interpretation of archaeologists and researchers, so its not exactly the same religion that myths are being adapted.And?
If the issue here is disrespect, then anything that features a being someone sincerely believes actually exists is equally disrespectful (whether that's 'very' or 'not at all') if it treats said being with equal respect. Now, I'm happy to let others argue whether this specific depiction is respectful enough (it totally might not be, I'm not arguing one way or the other)...but the mere inclusion of a specific creature is exactly as disrespectful as the inclusion of creatures from other mythologies still believed in.
I'm not sure how the degree to which the people who currently believe in the being in question agree with people 500 years ago, or 3000 years ago, for that matter, is super relevant to whether their beliefs deserve to be treated with respect. All religions evolve and change with the times, after all, and all deserve respect.
Ah to clarify, I wasn't arguing about whether they deserve respect or not, I was arguing whether they count as same source for myths. Like both stories based on egyptian mythology and modern Khemetic revival share same source, but they are different branches as modern Khemetic religion isn't same religion as the original one.
Granted, that is completely semantics. "Well do they disrespect my religion by adapting stuff from mythology my religion is based on" isn't really much different from "They adapted stuff from my religion"

![]() |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |

Would simply changing the name and art be enough to make it usable? I ask because the creature has a lot of unique mechanics and it would be a shame to lose them. I'm not familiar enough with the culture to say if those mechanics are based off anything there.
If the mechanics are ok, you should be able to replace the name and art with your players being none the wiser. Doesn't address it with Paizo, but it is something.
This is the thing I'm most curious about. I've managed to get a hold of the team lead of Heartbeat Dice, who is native themselves. I've asked them if changing the name enough? Should changes be more severe? Are there even a need for changes, should they be handled respectfully? Etc etc. I'll update with their insight soon!

Temperans |
5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Malk_Content wrote:I know how it can come across as that, but no. I've seen native voices on the topic in the past, and I guess the best I can get from the issue is that the naming of the W*ndigo is to Algonquian what depicting Mohammad is to Islam. You just don't do it. This isn't like fighting Devils, or creating Golems- both of those stem from active religions too, yes, but the Bible doesn't specifically say "never, ever say this things name"Yeah I've done a fair bit of research into it, as I'm a hobbyist boardgame designer whose current project is a real world mythologies projected into a sci-fi setting deckbuildet, and the pf2 version of the Wendigo seems to be very solid. Even its torment is a moderately good representation of their influence.
Is this just a case of yet another white person with no actual knowledge of offence looking for some? We constantly talk about representation, and including parts of cultural history in our media, respectfully, is part of that.
What about all the Greek, German, Mayan, African, Indonesean, etc. mythological creatures and races?
I would like to speak with some of them to hear their opinion directly. I just dont get how naming something is insulting with out more context.

![]() |
11 people marked this as a favorite. |

What about all the Greek, German, Mayan, African, Indonesean, etc. mythological creatures and races?
I would like to speak with some of them to hear their opinion directly. I just dont get how naming something is insulting with out more context.
Hey man, let's de-escalate a little, okay? Remember that Native folk are still around, and by and large the victims of genocide. Saying "what about the Greeks?" is a false equivalency, because the Greeks weren't killed en masse and forced to forgo their culture by their killers.
Google is your friend here, but as a show of good faith, here's a few sources on why plundering a very important native belief as Big Scary Monster when it's still a part of a modern culture, not one that's been gone for millenia, is a problem. This isn't an All Monsters! situation. I'm Irish, I don't mind leprechauns at all, because they're not a core part of my culture. To answer your question, the TL;DR is naming the creature is considered taboo, since it gives it power and invites its attention, and many native folk request we respect that tradition and don't do it.
Here's a few sources, if you want to know more!
https://mysteriousuniverse.org/2018/10/why-the-wendigo-is-not-my-monster/
https://ko-fi.com/post/The-Wendigo-Is-Not-Yours-for-the-Taking-C0C116U8P
https://www.backstoryradio.org/blog/the-mythology-and-misrepresentation-of- the-windigo/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/ladygeekgirl.wordpress.com/2015/06/01/magical- mondays-appropriating-myth-and-magic/amp/

![]() |
4 people marked this as a favorite. |

It's not the use of creatures from myth and folklore that's the issue, from my understanding with specifically the Wxndigo (and the Skxnwalker) it's infectious and insidious knowledge in how it works. You say it, so other people know about it, so now other people are easier to succumb to it, and repeat. That's bad.
From my understanding, the problem is that wendigo and skinwalker are religious term from still living minority religions that get persecuted by majority in their own countries. And worse they don't usually get represented faithfully, like wendigo are often portrayed as yeti like snow monsters.
Also this.
(also non-sequitur but there are Nosferatu in Pathfinder)

![]() |

Could rename them Ithaq or something of the like.
Ohhh, Ithaq? Where's this from?
Something of note- the whole "big zombie ice deer" Thing is actually something of a Pathfinder original. The deer thing is kind of contemporary, considering the original creature is like an ice giant. Pathfinder changed the Saxra to the Skulltaker (albeit, probably for different reasons, since the Saxra, an Argentinian myth I believe, is relatively obscure) so honestly, renaming it might be a big step. Thank you Rysky, you remain this forum's patron saint!

Malk_Content |
5 people marked this as a favorite. |
The problem with renaming things is you are actually removing the acknowledgement of that creatures roots from your game (where most of the population will interact with it.) The name Wendigo is something someone can go "oh thats interesting" and then look it up. All of a sudden they are learning more about a culture they other wise wouldn't. Know what happens when I google Ithaq? I get results about a League of Legends player with that name. Huh I guess Paizo just came up with that monster all by themselves. Or worse I follow the google "hey did you mean Ithaqua" and I'm like "oh they borrowed this from Lovecraft."
THAT is cultural appropriation in my mind. You get the idea for a monster from an existing culture, and then erase that cultural connection (or worse have now whitewashed it to coming from Lovecraft.) You've replaced an avenue for learning with ignorance. Well done.

![]() |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |

Team lead Desmond here!
Thanks for reaching out about this topic. Unfortunately while I’m not Algonquian, I am Iraquois Mowhawk and the Algonquian are our northern siblings and we share a deep culture.
In our stories the Wendigo was meant to tell a story and warning to those who rely to heavily on greed and wealth. People who gave into this sickness turned into the twisted monster seen in popular media today. I feel that if you plan to use the creature in your game try to stay true to the original intent of the creature by telling teaching this lesson. If that doesn’t fit the narrative then I feel a name change would be sufficient. ❤️
So here's that! In Extinction Curse, this can still be written in easily. That being said, there's still a lot of room as written to misrepresent these guys, and that's still something Paizo should consider looking into. This doesn't touch the Sk*nwalker thing, which I feel could best be fixed by just using the term Werekin, since the ancestry doesn't really have anything to do with Sk*nwalker lore, and everything to do with lycantrophy.
To be clear: I'm not saying "Ugh, Paizo's SUCH a bad company" for this. They do representation so much better than... Well, anyone I've seen so far in any media, honestly! It's just that these two beings specifically have a cultural context we can't really compare to any other monster in the bestiary without delving into false equivalency and overlooking the things that happened to Indigenous people and their culture at the hand of colonization. If we're willing to look at why a law enforcement AP could be handled insensitively, and give guidelines in order to better approach it in a more aware way, then I feel we can share that respect with Native Folk and their culture too.

![]() |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |

The problem with renaming things is you are actually removing the acknowledgement of that creatures roots from your game (where most of the population will interact with it.) The name Wendigo is something someone can go "oh thats interesting" and then look it up. All of a sudden they are learning more about a culture they other wise wouldn't. Know what happens when I google Ithaq? I get results about a League of Legends player with that name. Huh I guess Paizo just came up with that monster all by themselves. Or worse I follow the google "hey did you mean Ithaqua" and I'm like "oh they borrowed this from Lovecraft."
THAT is cultural appropriation in my mind. You get the idea for a monster from an existing culture, and then erase that cultural connection (or worse have now whitewashed it to coming from Lovecraft.) You've replaced an avenue for learning with ignorance. Well done.
... Man, the point is they don't want people finding out more and giving it more ability to do harm. That's exactly the point. They don't want it to be trivialized, and would prefer we didn't use it. Having creatures inspired by a legend but not an actual representation of the legend itself for culturally respectful reasons ≠ whitewashing. I dunno if you're deliberately misreading the point or not, but it's not really our place to decide something /isn't/ culturally insensitive if native folk say it is, which they've been saying. I linked you places they've said it. I've talked to someone who agreed. I dunno how else to convince you this isn't some fringe issue

Salamileg |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |

This is an interesting topic for me, as I'm planning a horror campaign heavily inspired by Algonquin and Inuit cultures (combined with some other concepts like eldritch horror) where the Wendigo is a major presence throughout the campaign. Even though it's just a campaign for me and some friends, I've been trying to do research to present things as accurately and respectfully as possible while still giving myself some creative freedom. I've been trying to think of how to accurately represent the Wendigo while still remaining within the D&D/Pathfinder "go to place and kill the monster" mold, which I'm not entirely sure is appropriate for the Wendigo.

![]() |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |

Rysky wrote:Could rename them Ithaq or something of the like.Ohhh, Ithaq? Where's this from?
Something of note- the whole "big zombie ice deer" Thing is actually something of a Pathfinder original. The deer thing is kind of contemporary, considering the original creature is like an ice giant. Pathfinder changed the Saxra to the Skulltaker (albeit, probably for different reasons, since the Saxra, an Argentinian myth I believe, is relatively obscure) so honestly, renaming it might be a big step. Thank you Rysky, you remain this forum's patron saint!
Ithaqua is Lovecraft's Windwalker/Wxndigo (seriously, his title is The Wxndigo), so I just played with that.

![]() |
4 people marked this as a favorite. |

Derry L. Zimeye wrote:Ithaqua is Lovecraft's Windwalker/Wxndigo (seriously, his title is The Wxndigo), so I just played with that.Rysky wrote:Could rename them Ithaq or something of the like.Ohhh, Ithaq? Where's this from?
Something of note- the whole "big zombie ice deer" Thing is actually something of a Pathfinder original. The deer thing is kind of contemporary, considering the original creature is like an ice giant. Pathfinder changed the Saxra to the Skulltaker (albeit, probably for different reasons, since the Saxra, an Argentinian myth I believe, is relatively obscure) so honestly, renaming it might be a big step. Thank you Rysky, you remain this forum's patron saint!
Huh! I considered myself pretty well read on old Huge Racist Lovecraft. Ironic that we'll be able to use his IP to be more respectful to indigenous people, despite it all!
Using his works in inclusive media continues to be my favorite pass time!
![]() |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |

Rysky wrote:Derry L. Zimeye wrote:Ithaqua is Lovecraft's Windwalker/Wxndigo (seriously, his title is The Wxndigo), so I just played with that.Rysky wrote:Could rename them Ithaq or something of the like.Ohhh, Ithaq? Where's this from?
Something of note- the whole "big zombie ice deer" Thing is actually something of a Pathfinder original. The deer thing is kind of contemporary, considering the original creature is like an ice giant. Pathfinder changed the Saxra to the Skulltaker (albeit, probably for different reasons, since the Saxra, an Argentinian myth I believe, is relatively obscure) so honestly, renaming it might be a big step. Thank you Rysky, you remain this forum's patron saint!
Huh! I considered myself pretty well read on old Huge Racist Lovecraft. Ironic that we'll be able to use his IP to be more respectful to indigenous people, despite it all!
Using his works in inclusive media continues to be my favorite pass time!
I know, that makes it so much better even :3

![]() |

Saxra renaming does bit confuse me since term is so obscure that pathfinder is first google result. So kinda hard to tell are they similar to wendigo and skinwalker in that they are also secret knowledge you aren't supposed to say aloud?
A good question. I actually researched the Saxra while trying to write a one-shot, and found it remarkably hard to find anything on it. I could only find a single paragraph in an old, old book on it- though to be fair, I was looking in English, and Spanish results may have wielded slightly more. That being said, my assumption is they changed it to make it a Pathfinder original and save people the rabbit hole? Maybe??

![]() |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |

This is an interesting topic for me, as I'm planning a horror campaign heavily inspired by Algonquin and Inuit cultures (combined with some other concepts like eldritch horror) where the Wendigo is a major presence throughout the campaign. Even though it's just a campaign for me and some friends, I've been trying to do research to present things as accurately and respectfully as possible while still giving myself some creative freedom. I've been trying to think of how to accurately represent the Wendigo while still remaining within the D&D/Pathfinder "go to place and kill the monster" mold, which I'm not entirely sure is appropriate for the Wendigo.
The quote from Desmond I posted may be interesting to you. In his eyes, it's okay-- so long as you are keenly aware of the lesson the myth is meant to tell, a warning against all consuming greed. I'll probably stick to the name Rysky coined, and remain careful either way, but yeah, you're on the right track I think!

![]() |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |

CorvusMask wrote:Saxra renaming does bit confuse me since term is so obscure that pathfinder is first google result. So kinda hard to tell are they similar to wendigo and skinwalker in that they are also secret knowledge you aren't supposed to say aloud?A good question. I actually researched the Saxra while trying to write a one-shot, and found it remarkably hard to find anything on it. I could only find a single paragraph in an old, old book on it- though to be fair, I was looking in English, and Spanish results may have wielded slightly more. That being said, my assumption is they changed it to make it a Pathfinder original and save people the rabbit hole? Maybe??
Possibly? Or Saxra might not be the correct name (in the case of sorts of variant alphabet systems).

![]() |
5 people marked this as a favorite. |

Hell, even the name Wind-Walkers works. Still evocative of the original, and another name used in the Ithaqua novel. We're spoiled for choice with cool names and can still be respectful of the culture they're from.

MMCJawa |
4 people marked this as a favorite. |

I am not a Native American, but I am a bit of a folklore nut. So maybe my words don't matter as much, and I certainly would bow to the knowledge of any posters here from the culture in question. That said...
I have never really heard anything about the name Windigo name being forbidden or taboo...in fact its specifically used as a moral story dealing with the dangers of greed and selfishness (something already brought up here). And I would be curious how many folks within those societies ACTUALLY BELIEVE in windigos as real entities and not simply fictional creations. Reading folklore/mythology and automatically assuming that everyone in that culture believes something is 100% real is a stereotype that can be just as damaging as cultural appropriation.
This isn't the case for skinwalkers, which have a far far more sinister reputation and are less monsters and more evil sorcerers.
Cultural appropriation is a serious issue, but I don't think it translates as "No one is allowed to use anything from any other culture ever". That taken to its extreme will just result in people white-washing settings and excluding minorities from fictional works. What it does mean is that if used, you should try to stay true to the source material. Paizo's take on the Windigo is actually more accurate that a lot of other media representations of the monster, which usually just turn it into a evil bigfoot. About the only thing off from it is the "deer head" thing, which is a pop-cultural development with origins from the early 2000's film Windigo. Even then that is a cosmetic change that doesn't impact the story much...there is actually a fair degree of variation on what windigos look like depending on where you are in the northeast.

![]() |
5 people marked this as a favorite. |

It is not possible to extract the history of racism/sexism/appropriation/offence from fantasy, without completely throwing out every "classic" monster or species. Orcs and goblins are dark skinned man eating savages. Drow are a race of dark skinned demon worshiping sadists ruled by women (seriously, can you even stack any more prejudice onto that one?). Fairies, golems, demons, nearly every monster in the bestiaries were appropriated from some culture's folklore, and most of these cultures still exist in some form or another today. Of course, pathfinder appropriated many of these from D&D, which in turn appropriated many of them from previous fantasy tropes.
It's an extremely complicated issue, even your assumption of appropriation could be offensive. It's possible that the person who designed the wendigo for pathfinder used it because of the the ties to their heritage that they wanted to include and share with others through this game (I'm not saying that is the case for this specific instance, but it is probably the case for some instances. I certainly draw inspiration from my own cultural heritage when designing monsters for my fantasy games). Like it or not, we're all humans, living in an age of unprecedented sharing of culture and ideas.
I don't think the solution is to stop drawing ideas from those who came before us. I further disagree that acknowledging that which we were inspired by is wrong.