Anything wrong with this? Seems awfully cheap for 3D6 added damage...granted some of it comes back and it's all non-lethal...so there's a tradeoff, but in MOST circumstances, those are non-issues.
Anything wrong with this? Seems awfully cheap for 3D6 added damage...granted some of it comes back and it's all non-lethal...so there's a tradeoff, but in MOST circumstances, those are non-issues.
Until you fight undead or constructs or some other critter that's immune to nonlethal damage.
Or until you get into melee with a nasty bruiser and you're now taking damage from the bruiser plus your own weapon, in turn causing you to fall unconscious faster as it beats you to a pulp and you retaliate by beating the critter and yourself to a pulp.
I gotta admit that's a funny image:
PC: "I'll fix you!"
Rolls a critical threat, confirms.
"Take that! 56 points of nonlethal damage!"
GM: How many hp do you have right now?
Player: "I've got 42-oh."
PC falls over unconscious from drubbing the monster.
Each ability is fairly balanced for being a +1 (both are slightly strong b/c they are untyped, but have a bit of a drawback).
The big question is whether you'll let the vicious do non-lethal to the wielder. That would make it overpowered I feel (negating part of the drawback). It would be interesting as a unique weapon though, or a "+2.5" power (mercifully vicious).
Edit: Lathiira - vicious only does 1d6 to the wielder, not the total damage.
PC: "I'll fix you!"
Rolls a critical threat, confirms.
"Take that! 56 points of nonlethal damage!"
GM: How many hp do you have right now?
Player: "I've got 42-oh."
PC falls over unconscious from drubbing the monster.
Did I miss something about vicious, why would the player drop when doing a lot of damage to a monster? He would still just take 1d6 points of damage (lethal or non-lethal), perhaps 2d6 or 3d6 if your DM decides that the backlash damage from vicious is also multiplied.
Each ability is fairly balanced for being a +1 (both are slightly strong b/c they are untyped, but have a bit of a drawback).
The big question is whether you'll let the vicious do non-lethal to the wielder. That would make it overpowered I feel (negating part of the drawback). It would be interesting as a unique weapon though, or a "+2.5" power (mercifully vicious).
Edit: Lathiira - vicious only does 1d6 to the wielder, not the total damage.
I admit I'm engaging in a bit of hyperbole. The real point is that you're doing the monster's job for it, at least a little bit, by damaging yourself with each strike. Sure, you're using a weapon with the merciful property, so the damage is nonlethal damage. But in a nasty fight you could still manage to KO yourself as a bruiser beats you down until your low in hp (but still positive), but the nonlethal damage you've accumulated catches up to you. Overall, I like the weapon and it's one I've seen before. I'm obliquely trying to point out that the weapon isn't undercosted or broken, but rather has some issues you need to be prepared to deal with if you use it.
I must be tired. Now I see the weapon as a big fluffy pillow with a brick in it, wielded by Bugs Bunny. Yup, definitely tired.
I must be tired. Now I see the weapon as a big fluffy pillow with a brick in it, wielded by Bugs Bunny. Yup, definitely tired.
YES!!!
It gets better if your DM rules that the backlash damage is also non-lethal. In that case you can heal the damage inflicted by the weapon and the monster at the same time.
I admit I'm engaging in a bit of hyperbole. The real point is that you're doing the monster's job for it, at least a little bit, by damaging yourself with each strike. Sure, you're using a weapon with the merciful property, so the damage is nonlethal damage. But in a nasty fight you could still manage to KO yourself as a bruiser beats you down until your low in hp (but still positive), but the nonlethal damage you've accumulated catches up to you. Overall, I like the weapon and it's one I've seen before. I'm obliquely trying to point out that the weapon isn't undercosted or broken, but rather has some issues you need to be prepared to deal with if you use it.
I must be tired. Now I see the weapon as a big fluffy pillow with a brick in it, wielded by Bugs Bunny. Yup, definitely tired.
One of the "cooler" aspects of using it, I suppose if you call it that, is that the damage dealt back to you (since merciful is pretty specific that all damage dealt is non-lethal) gets healed on top of lethal damage. So, if I've taken 10 points of lethal damage and 6 points of non-lethal damage, a well rolled cure light wounds would heal all 16 points of damage.
One of the "cooler" aspects of using it, I suppose if you call it that, is that the damage dealt back to you (since merciful is pretty specific that all damage dealt is non-lethal) gets healed on top of lethal damage. So, if I've taken 10 points of lethal damage and 6 points of non-lethal damage, a well rolled cure light wounds would heal all 16 points of damage.
That's quite true and I already thought of that. It's just that you don't always get to be healed during the fight. Sometimes, the fight comes down to surviving long enough for the wizard or cleric to use a save-or-suck spell and put the enemies down afterward. But yes, when you get around to healing, it's great to be able to undo the weapon's effects.
I'm not playing in it anymore, but I had a dual wielding kukri crit build that used this enchant combo on each weapon, the damage output compared to the others in the party was ridiculous and I actually kind got bored when I was dealing 120-150 damage per round (at level 11ish) and they were dealing 40-50.
The combo is legal, but I'd rule that the vicious damage you do to yourself is lethal; only the damage you do to the target is nonlethal.
"Rocks fall. Everyone dies."
I'm not playing in it anymore, but I had a dual wielding kukri crit build that used this enchant combo on each weapon, the damage output compared to the others in the party was ridiculous and I actually kind got bored when I was dealing 120-150 damage per round (at level 11ish) and they were dealing 40-50.
Nothing wrong with that. Optimizing your damage output is fine. If no one else wanted to do so, then it's not their fault nor yours that you routinely did 2-3X their damage. It's a good combo.
I love the vampiric ability from Magic item compendium in 3.5 its a +2 bonus it deals an extra d6 and heals you for a d6, effectively countering vicious' d6 damage.
At which point, you have +3 enhancements that do 3d6 damage to the target and (on average) none to you. That still seems balanced.
The other potential downside to the +1 merciful vicious weapon is when the other side has healing. If anyone is doing lethal damage to the same target, it gets double benefits from any healing that it receives.
I love the vampiric ability from Magic item compendium in 3.5 its a +2 bonus it deals an extra d6 and heals you for a d6, effectively countering vicious' d6 damage.At which point, you have +3 enhancements that do 3d6 damage to the target and (on average) none to you. That still seems balanced.
The other potential downside to the +1 merciful vicious weapon is when the other side has healing. If anyone is doing lethal damage to the same target, it gets double benefits from any healing that it receives.
Yeah, it's definitely not ideal in all situations. But you can turn the merciful off at will and still have a +1 weapon that does 2D6 to the enemy and 1D6 to you.
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I love the vampiric ability from Magic item compendium in 3.5 its a +2 bonus it deals an extra d6 and heals you for a d6, effectively countering vicious' d6 damage.At which point, you have +3 enhancements that do 3d6 damage to the target and (on average) none to you. That still seems balanced.
The other potential downside to the +1 merciful vicious weapon is when the other side has healing. If anyone is doing lethal damage to the same target, it gets double benefits from any healing that it receives.
the real benefit is not having to worry about energy resist. resist 5-10 is annoying.
If I remember correctly from another thread the Vicious quality is not subject to damage reduction... you take it regardless. I may be mistaken and if so I would appreciate the correction.
I still say no way is it balanced to have the vicious deal non-lethal to the wielder (other than as a special case).
But Vicious would be a nasty amulet ability for a monk... finally a use for wholeness of body!
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I still say no way is it balanced to have the vicious deal non-lethal to the wielder (other than as a special case).
But Vicious would be a nasty amulet ability for a monk... finally a use for wholeness of body!
You don't see how causing yourself to go down earlier is balanced?
A +1 Vicious Longsword will cause you to die earlier, but with a +1 Vicious Merciful Longsword you'll fall unconscious(and possible get a coup de grace) when your non-lethal damamge exceeds your current hit point total.
In total agreement about having an Amulet with the Vicious quality and the Monk levels, though.
I think it would be cool with pain-taster. DAT DR/NON-LETHAL
Hmmm now what happens if the wielder of the +1 Merciful Vicious Longsword is undead sounds like a nasty thing to do to a party of adventurers although i would use a great sword just to see the player's faces as i roll 5d6 damage :).
Holy crap, I'm working on a Gnome Magus build right now, and he could get both of those as arcane pool options.
Woot. Thanks for the idea. That's fantastic.
Question: If a weapon was Merciful Vicious Flaming, would the flame damage be "nonlethal flame damage?"
Question 2:
If you're dropping a damage spell via spellstrike through a merciful blade, is the spellstrike damage also nonlethal?