Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Horribulous is now my new favorite word. I demand more horribulous creatures immediately! High AC and/or multiple vicious attacks encouraged.
HORRIBULOUS RAT SWARM CR 10
SPECIAL...
FTW! Horribulous was a nonsense adjective I just came up with one session when James and Eric Haddock were the only guys who showed up that night (Caustic Abacus against the world!). They were doing a little sidetrek to Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil from the WotC website, a secret hidden cave with a half-fiend aboleth - tentacles, claws, fangs, fins, WINGS - it was pretty much the definition of a Thing That Should Not Be, and what else could I use to describe it but... [fumbling for an adjective... ummm... wait!]
HORRIBULOUS!
The word just kinda stuck, and it's fun to whip out for special occasions. :)
It seemed like it might also be fitting for an swarm of rats the size of a small lake swarming over the rubble of a collapse building gnawing everything trying to claw its way out of the wreckage and might give the PLAYERS nightmares as well as their characters. Feel free to give your players a taste! Step right up, get it while it's HORRIBULOUS!
This more or less underlines what I thought. Our play-styles are very different. I am not a fan of having battles where Initiative is the most important roll, since the winner of initiative wins the battle, as even the big bads fall from the damage output of one round of combat.
This has absolutely nothing to do with my playstile. This just how the super high-level DnD game both is and is supposed to be. Taking the single purely physical high-level monster in MM, at level 20 in 3.5 your party of four is seriously supposed not simply to defeat the tarrasque, but to curbstomp it. Taking into accound the fact that taking even one, never mind more than one full attack from the tarrasque can kill a PC, doing 200+ hp damage per round is actually what the system demands from damage-oriented charactes at this level.
And while it is possible to create fighting characters that can withstand stuff DnD throws at PCs at high levels for extended periods of time, and therefore have less need for uber offensive capability, these require much greater level of optimization. But normally, your melee dude will be auto-hit by the tarrasque, if not for 50% miss chance from his cloak of displacement. So, unless you can remove a quarter of its HPs or so in one round, that usually meand your abilities fall behind the intended baseline.Now other top-end monsters in 3.5 have much less HPs. But they all are magic warriors, instead of melee brutes, and don't even need to use melee much. In fact, it is beneficial for most of them to avoid it. And they have a lot of ways to make themselves hard to hit in general.
And Pathfinder hardly changed any of these dynamics much. A few things are shifted here and there, but just look for some monsters from this thread. The latest example is telling enough: 180 hp on a swarm is obviously seen by designers as an easy battle for a party of level 10.
This kind of play is what ruins the game in my opinion, since if you are going for super-power, then half the core classes gets left behind.
Half of the core classes (assuming no non-core stuff, which is most certainly not how the game was supposed to be played) gets left behind automatically, by power progression of level-appropriate monsters. Restricting oneself to their standard (and restricting them, so that they can't have nice stuff from supplements and be level-appropriate) means falling below the power level the system demands for you.
Pinpoint Targetting and Greater Vital Strike...suddenly that AC 48 is not AC 48 anymore. You can even use Deadly Aim for a little more oomph.
Hm... don't move, and just stand there taking single action pot shots? Well I guess it could be better than hoping for a critical.
doing 200+ hp damage per round is actually what the system demands from damage-oriented charactes at this level.
My example was of a party that found MERELY 200 to be a really bad round. Their GOOD rounds were 500-700, which is a HP total that only the truly absurd monsters surpass.
Pathfinder hardly changed any of these dynamics much. A few things are shifted here and there, but just look for some monsters from this thread. The latest example is telling enough: 180 hp on a swarm is obviously seen by designers as an easy battle for a party of level 10.
CR10 is supposed to be a challenge within the characters' means. They should expend 20% of their "party resources" (HP, spells prepared etc) and emerge victorious. At lv20, you can't burn through 20% of your resources THAT quick. And if someone dies at lv20, so what? Death at lv20 is like ability damage at low levels. You have 2d4 ways to bring the character back. So, going back to your statement; you still walk away from The tarrasque with full numbers, missing a few spells and whatnot. Effectively having curb-stomped it.
Regarding Horribulous swarm: Granted, THIS particular swarm seems quite optimized, and since it gets more or less an auto-surprise on top of having other favorable conditions, I might consider increasing the CR to 11 or even 12. But, unless the GM goes meta on you and keeps harassing the arcane caster no matter what the players do, a few well placed AoE spells eats through a swarm in no time, and rat swarms can, unlike most other swarms, be hit for half physical damage. Two or three 10d6 spells, a couple of full attacks from the rest of the party, and so on should make short work of this encounter in 3-4 rounds, and be healed up with 2-3 channel energy and cure spells. Which I think is about right.
Creative Director
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This has absolutely nothing to do with my playstile. This just how the super high-level DnD game both is and is supposed to be. Taking the single purely physical high-level monster in MM, at level 20 in 3.5 your party of four is seriously supposed not simply to defeat the tarrasque, but to curbstomp it. Taking into accound the fact that taking even one, never mind more than one full attack from the tarrasque can kill a PC, doing 200+ hp damage per round is actually what the system demands from damage-oriented charactes at this level.
Actually, it has everything to do with playstyle. I've run MANY high level games, and in my experience, the don't play out like that at all. Because I have different players than you do, and I run games differently than you do. I'm not saying your way is better or my way is better... but playstyle DOES matter and it DOES make a difference. No two groups play the game exactly alike, and there's a lot wider range of play experiences than one might think.
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Pinpoint Targetting and Greater Vital Strike...suddenly that AC 48 is not AC 48 anymore. You can even use Deadly Aim for a little more oomph.
I think this suffers from the same problem other actions do with Vital Strike. Pinpoint Targetting is a Standard Action, as is Vital Strike, so they cannot be used together.
Me, I rule you can combine VS with other actions, but other DMs might not be so lenient.
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A camel mount to sicken it for 1d4 rounds, assuming it can be sickened, with a touch attack. -2 to AC, Skill Checks, Saves, To hit and Damage rolls. Shake him with a well built intimidator for another -2 to the same things, and Eye him if you've got a witch or item that does something similar. Lower it some more with a well placed Pyrotechnics (smoke), Heightened up to highest level spell slot and you have one annoyed high AC monster that just lost 6-8 AC. Round 1 setup is complete.
You're welcome.
Point of order, neither shaken nor sickened reduce AC. Entangled does, though. I have a ranger/cleric who just loves his Exotic weapon proficiency (net) for just that reason. It's one of the only conditions that reduces attacks AND AC.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Actually, it has everything to do with playstyle. I've run MANY high level games, and in my experience, the don't play out like that at all. Because I have different players than you do, and I run games differently than you do. I'm not saying your way is better or my way is better... but playstyle DOES matter and it DOES make a difference. No two groups play the game exactly alike, and there's a lot wider range of play experiences than one might think.This has absolutely nothing to do with my playstile. This just how the super high-level DnD game both is and is supposed to be. Taking the single purely physical high-level monster in MM, at level 20 in 3.5 your party of four is seriously supposed not simply to defeat the tarrasque, but to curbstomp it. Taking into accound the fact that taking even one, never mind more than one full attack from the tarrasque can kill a PC, doing 200+ hp damage per round is actually what the system demands from damage-oriented charactes at this level.
Seconded. Magic stuff is often mooted by counter-magical flim-flammery, just as fightering is mooted by Monsters Bigger Than You (TM). Both kinds of characters get their licks in with HL campaigns, and both get their lunch money taken from time to time.
Seconded. Magic stuff is often mooted by counter-magical flim-flammery, just as fightering is mooted by Monsters Bigger Than You (TM). Both kinds of characters get their licks in with HL campaigns, and both get their lunch money taken from time to time.Actually, it has everything to do with playstyle. I've run MANY high level games, and in my experience, the don't play out like that at all. Because I have different players than you do, and I run games differently than you do. I'm not saying your way is better or my way is better... but playstyle DOES matter and it DOES make a difference. No two groups play the game exactly alike, and there's a lot wider range of play experiences than one might think.This has absolutely nothing to do with my playstile. This just how the super high-level DnD game both is and is supposed to be. Taking the single purely physical high-level monster in MM, at level 20 in 3.5 your party of four is seriously supposed not simply to defeat the tarrasque, but to curbstomp it. Taking into accound the fact that taking even one, never mind more than one full attack from the tarrasque can kill a PC, doing 200+ hp damage per round is actually what the system demands from damage-oriented charactes at this level.
Should that magical day arrive that I begin running an epic game I'll be treating Sepulchrave's Story hour as a primer, if not Bible for running epic games, the guy has been playing for years and his PC's are touching on divine ranks in the more recent updates (though he's still apparently years behind in the story hour updates) and his SH could provide an impressive perspective on stating out enemies, rewarding PC's, and even what sort of story of plot elements might go into an epic level game.
I'm probably just rehashing what most people here already know but I love plugging these things :P
This site was made by a fan who compiled the story hours all nice and neat like:
http://leagueofimaginaryheroes.wordpress.com/2009/03/22/sepulchraves-tales- of-wyre/
Stat Blocks for the characters and NPC's.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/plots-places/5652-eadric-et-al-paladin-his-fri ends.html
Time stop buff, buff, summon monster 9, delayed blast fireball. Done.Whatchu talkin bout willis? Time stop, as many of the highest level SMs as you can get off, then DD to a safe spot to watch the carnage!
As the summoned monsters 'splode, yes indeed. ::P
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Seconded. Magic stuff is often mooted by counter-magical flim-flammery, just as fightering is mooted by Monsters Bigger Than You (TM). Both kinds of characters get their licks in with HL campaigns, and both get their lunch money taken from time to time.Actually, it has everything to do with playstyle. I've run MANY high level games, and in my experience, the don't play out like that at all. Because I have different players than you do, and I run games differently than you do. I'm not saying your way is better or my way is better... but playstyle DOES matter and it DOES make a difference. No two groups play the game exactly alike, and there's a lot wider range of play experiences than one might think.This has absolutely nothing to do with my playstile. This just how the super high-level DnD game both is and is supposed to be. Taking the single purely physical high-level monster in MM, at level 20 in 3.5 your party of four is seriously supposed not simply to defeat the tarrasque, but to curbstomp it. Taking into accound the fact that taking even one, never mind more than one full attack from the tarrasque can kill a PC, doing 200+ hp damage per round is actually what the system demands from damage-oriented charactes at this level.
Should that magical day arrive that I begin running an epic game I'll be treating Sepulchrave's Story hour as a primer, if not Bible for running epic games, the guy has been playing for years and his PC's are touching on divine ranks in the more recent updates (though he's still apparently years behind in the story hour updates) and his SH could provide an impressive perspective on stating out enemies, rewarding PC's, and even what sort of story of plot elements might go into an epic level game.
I'm probably just rehashing what most people here already know but I love plugging these things :P
This site was made by a fan who compiled the story hours all nice and neat like:...
I've never read this story hour before, I'm just up to "The Heretic of Wyre" and am Amazed. I'm taking notes on how to handle my CotCT and Kingmaker campaigns when they hit such levels...
Must keep reading!
I'm probably just rehashing what most people here already know but I love plugging these things :P
This site was made by a fan who compiled the story hours all nice and neat like:
Sepulchrave's Tales of Wyre
Stat Blocks for the characters and NPC's.
Eadric et al Paladin his friends
It's Mother's Day.
Remember to infect all of your player's characters with slaad fever.
Did someone want a Slaad egg?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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FTW! Horribulous was a nonsense adjective I just came up with one session when James and Eric Haddock were the only guys who showed up that night (Caustic Abacus against the world!). They were doing a little sidetrek to Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil from the WotC website, a secret hidden cave with a half-fiend aboleth - tentacles, claws, fangs, fins, WINGS - it was pretty much the definition of a Thing That Should Not Be, and what else could I use to describe it but... [fumbling for an adjective... ummm... wait!]
HORRIBULOUS!
The word just kinda stuck, and it's fun to whip out for special occasions. :)
It seemed like it might also be fitting for an swarm of rats the size of a small lake swarming over the rubble of a collapse building gnawing everything trying to claw its way out of the wreckage and might give the PLAYERS nightmares as well as their characters. Feel free to give your players a taste! Step right up, get it while it's HORRIBULOUS!
It briefly gave me a flashback to the evil things Keith Baker did with the Horrid template from Eberron. Horrid chickens, horrid bulls. Horrid Hummingbird swarms *shudder*
I would certainly hope that's just the beginning. What else would you do after casting Time Stop? Have a cup of tea and enjoy the quiet?
The encounter I just finished developing has a bad guy who casts time stop. AND THAT'S JUST THE BEGINNING!
That would be persistant timestop :p
set up a tent, rest, study new spells, including a new persistant time stop... and voila, you have the ending of stargate :D..busy researching new spells, crafing items and whatnot trying tofigure out how to survive the next second..
I would certainly hope that's just the beginning. What else would you do after casting Time Stop? Have a cup of tea and enjoy the quiet?
The encounter I just finished developing has a bad guy who casts time stop. AND THAT'S JUST THE BEGINNING!
That would be persistant timestop :p
set up a tent, rest, study new spells, including a new persistant time stop... and voila, you have the ending of stargate :D
..busy researching new spells, crafing items and whatnot trying tofigure out how to survive the next second..
Aeons pass within the time stop, geography changes, Gawds die and languages evolve. The spell finally ends with Our Protagonist long gone and Your Heroes in a strange, strange new world. Everything from their point of view changed in the blink of an eye...
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Combine Persistent Timestop with a "Time Machine" which eats up magic/psionic items and "returns" crafting time to the user.
Unlimited Magic Item Crafting and Recycling center, just sitting there waiting.
Then, when the future world emerges from the mist, you have every trinket and custom item you could ever want. Heck, we pulled that mid-combat once...went away for a day, came back with re-prepared spells on the wizard, zap.
"Well the cover of part 6 suggests that it's a Black Dragon our hereoes will have to face..although the art orders don't always show actual events from the AP
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Creative Director
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"Well the cover of part 6 suggests that it's a Black Dragon our hereoes will have to face..although the art orders don't always show actual events from the AP
Actually... we've been pretty good at making sure that our cover illustrations show events or scenes from that particular adventure. The character illo itself? Not so much. But the illustration behind the character, yup! They're 100% spoiler-powered.
Which scene is on Rivers Run Red? I can't think of any encounters that involve three green skinned enemies in a rowboat.
I love the druids action pose, sadly I can't help but remember she only does 1-2 damage with the sickle :(
smirks..my players hate Black Dragons, all their worst encounters in every game we have ever played have been with them..and they have never managed to kill one yet...and it looks like I get to pull my gargantuan Black figure off the shelf at last
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Creative Director
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Which scene is on Rivers Run Red? I can't think of any encounters that involve three green skinned enemies in a rowboat.
I love the druids action pose, sadly I can't help but remember she only does 1-2 damage with the sickle :(
That scene was meant to illustrate...
I kept thinking the world's wimpiest trolls.
The character illo itself? Not so much.
Oh? Well, crap... I've been running all of these adventure paths wrong. I always had the characters strike a dramatic pose for a round or two when first challenging the players.
what makes me happy here, is that I'm on the DM's side of the screen
:)
I kept thinking the world's wimpiest trolls.
Gave me an idea for a band of "troll-kin", or maybe even "scrag-kin" river pirates, (basically using trolls with the young template), with the named ones given class levels in rogue and focusing on physical skills.
"Ahoy! Claw, claw, bite, REND, matey!"
what makes me happy here, is that I'm on the DM's side of the screen
+1 to that.
I apologize in advance for the AC 48 monster I just put into "Sound of a Thousand Screams."
The treasure's worth it though.
And yes, I'm a little punchy. It's after midnight at Paizo. I think that's when the blood-drinking ghosts come out of the windows.
I guess soon all will be revealed!!!
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Which scene is on Rivers Run Red? I can't think of any encounters that involve three green skinned enemies in a rowboat.
I love the druids action pose, sadly I can't help but remember she only does 1-2 damage with the sickle :(
I'm glad you asked that question, SdF, as I was wondering when RRR featured cavity creeps attacking a bridge (or maybe it's a skate park).
And the little druid looks like she's about to get spitted like a cocktail weenie on that sword.
Just once I'd like to see the main baddie be something like a level 20ish goblin or kobold...that would be very awesome. Have your players battle through all kinds of bad stuff like dragons..demons...etc etc and the guy behind all the struggles turns out to be a epic level Kobold/goblin.
Players would not know what to think.
Just once I'd like to see the main baddie be something like a level 20ish goblin or kobold...that would be very awesome. Have your players battle through all kinds of bad stuff like dragons..demons...etc etc and the guy behind all the struggles turns out to be a epic level Kobold/goblin.
Players would not know what to think.
Pwn3d by a goblin *somesuchandsoandso* ... priceless.
I remember the last time I faced some high level evil. It was Mortos, a powerful necromancer lich who had picked up a homebrew orb of invulnerability. I was the powerful wizard, and the rest of the party needed to shatter some ancient magical obelisk to break his connection ot the orb. In order to buy time for my friends, I challenged the lich to a magical duel. He started monologuing about how invulnerable he was and that he was going to let me hit him with my best shot. But he's invulnerable right? I don't have any spells that can undo invulnerability. He's letting me stall while I look for something in my bag of holding, getting impatient, but then I find what I'm looking for.
I pick the pie out of my pack and throw it at him. It hits him in the face. I yell "Ha! Now you're a powerful lich with a pie on his face! Pie all over you!"
Then he took me apart. Worth it.
I remember the last time I faced some high level evil. It was Mortos, a powerful necromancer lich who had picked up a homebrew orb of invulnerability. I was the powerful wizard, and the rest of the party needed to shatter some ancient magical obelisk to break his connection ot the orb. In order to buy time for my friends, I challenged the lich to a magical duel. He started monologuing about how invulnerable he was and that he was going to let me hit him with my best shot. But he's invulnerable right? I don't have any spells that can undo invulnerability. He's letting me stall while I look for something in my bag of holding, getting impatient, but then I find what I'm looking for.
I pick the pie out of my pack and throw it at him. It hits him in the face. I yell "Ha! Now you're a powerful lich with a pie on his face! Pie all over you!"
Then he took me apart. Worth it.
Funny thing about invulnerability -- I've found that subjecting it to a bag of holding combined with a portable hole generally doesn't end well for said invulnerability. Just make sure you have something summoned put said items together for you while you are a distance away.
(this by the way is one of my favorite ways of killing/ seriously inconviencing high level parties with dretches)
I guess soon all will be revealed!!!I apologize in advance for the AC 48 monster I just put into "Sound of a Thousand Screams."
The treasure's worth it though.
And yes, I'm a little punchy. It's after midnight at Paizo. I think that's when the blood-drinking ghosts come out of the windows.
Soon...
ROTFLMAO !!!!!!!!
If your gonna get taken apart, at least do it with style like this.
-- david
Papa.DRB
I remember the last time I faced some high level evil. It was Mortos, a powerful necromancer lich who had picked up a homebrew orb of invulnerability. I was the powerful wizard, and the rest of the party needed to shatter some ancient magical obelisk to break his connection ot the orb. In order to buy time for my friends, I challenged the lich to a magical duel. He started monologuing about how invulnerable he was and that he was going to let me hit him with my best shot. But he's invulnerable right? I don't have any spells that can undo invulnerability. He's letting me stall while I look for something in my bag of holding, getting impatient, but then I find what I'm looking for.
I pick the pie out of my pack and throw it at him. It hits him in the face. I yell "Ha! Now you're a powerful lich with a pie on his face! Pie all over you!"
Then he took me apart. Worth it.
Since Turin the Mad is my GM I'll refer to him for corroboration but the last dragon we encountered was in the crimson throne campaign near the end.
That dragon chose to switch sides and become my mount when I (as a medium sized fire elemental formed druid with certain gear not merged into my form) pulled out ten necklaces of fireball and threatened to voluntarily fail the item saves for the necklaces.
I recommend that if this AC 40+ critter is a dragon you make him red unless you want to be providing me with a new pet!!!
P.S. If the opportunity presents itself I'll solo the critter and let you know how it went!!!
Since Turin the Mad is my GM I'll refer to him for corroboration but the last dragon we encountered was in the crimson throne campaign near the end.
That dragon chose to switch sides and become my mount when I (as a medium sized fire elemental formed druid with certain gear not merged into my form) pulled out ten necklaces of fireball and threatened to voluntarily fail the item saves for the necklaces.
I recommend that if this AC 40+ critter is a dragon you make him red unless you want to be providing me with a new pet!!!
P.S. If the opportunity presents itself I'll solo the critter and let you know how it went!!!
I've seen Turin the Mad's kill threads. I don't think I'd taunt him too much.
I've seen Turin the Mad's kill threads. I don't think I'd taunt him too much.Since Turin the Mad is my GM I'll refer to him for corroboration but the last dragon we encountered was in the crimson throne campaign near the end.
That dragon chose to switch sides and become my mount when I (as a medium sized fire elemental formed druid with certain gear not merged into my form) pulled out ten necklaces of fireball and threatened to voluntarily fail the item saves for the necklaces.
I recommend that if this AC 40+ critter is a dragon you make him red unless you want to be providing me with a new pet!!!
P.S. If the opportunity presents itself I'll solo the critter and let you know how it went!!!
That dragon was also inclined to switch sides as I recall ...
I apologize in advance for the AC 48 monster I just put into "Sound of a Thousand Screams."
The treasure's worth it though.
And yes, I'm a little punchy. It's after midnight at Paizo. I think that's when the blood-drinking ghosts come out of the windows.
The treasure is most definitely worth it. The real kicker is that there are way tougher things in this AP than just that dragon. I've been looking forward to her stats for a while but now that I have the adventure, I'm finding some of the other stuff in there even scarier. After all, the dragon's *only* CR 17. That's just the warm up compared to the CR 20s in there.
We have already begun voting for who gets throw in front of it when we try to make our escape. It's not looking good for one of the players. he already has 3 out of 6 votes for him to be the distraction.
OH MY GODS
I've just skimmed through my pdf and I'm convinced that SoaTS = TPK for my players. I might have to make some adjustments.
They're only level 3 at the moment, but I know my players. They won't be ready for this. Nothing could make them ready for this.
Richard Pett, you are a psychopath.
OH MY GODS
I've just skimmed through my pdf and I'm convinced that SoaTS = TPK for my players. I might have to make some adjustments.
They're only level 3 at the moment, but I know my players. They won't be ready for this. Nothing could make them ready for this.
Richard Pett, you are a psychopath.
Agreed. Go look at the obituary thread for Council of Thieves. The Sixfold Trial is the deadliest of the volumes. I lost three out of four PCs in the volume.
Still, I play with a couple of power-gamer types. Stolen Land was pretty easy for them (only one or two close calls). I don't think Rivers Run Red will be much harder. I think The Varnhold Vanishing should prove to be slightly more dangerous, though, so I can't wait to reach that one.
Was the stat-block for the Worm-that-Walks long enough? Yikes!
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Was the stat-block for the Worm-that-Walks long enough? Yikes!
Well, when the actual template for it has to be converted first into a Pathfinder version, and then into a non-Epic version on top of that, and then the base creature is a 17th level wizard, you can kind of see how it might end up being bigger than your average kobold or goblin.
Plus this is an adventure with more than one CR 20 creature, and a CR 25 as a possible encounter for after the AP itself ends. The sometimes massive size of the stat blocks for high level creatures is just one of the inherent weaknesses of 3.X D&D and its Pathfinder descendant.