Oy vey. Between this and the last time the party had a run in with Privateer Press' Woldwrath...
*WHIMPER*
Ok, what am I missing?
16th level fighter.
Starting strength 16 + 4 level bumps = 20 + 6 belt = 26 = +8 to hit
+2 weapon / greater weapon focus
Bab 16 +8 (str) +4 (weapon) = 30
Still need an 18 to hit AC 48, and in most of my campaigns a belt +6 would be quite rare.
-- david
Papa.DRB
Prep the SoDs and debuffs gang!
Although, if I were running a 15th level warrior and couldn't hit a 48, I'd be ashamed of myself. Probably commit suicide to atone.
Ok, what am I missing?
16th level fighter.
Starting strength 16 + 4 level bumps = 20 + 6 belt = 26 = +8 to hit
+2 weapon / greater weapon focus
Bab 16 +8 (str) +4 (weapon) = 30
Still need an 18 to hit AC 48, and in most of my campaigns a belt +6 would be quite rare.
-- david
Papa.DRBPrep the SoDs and debuffs gang!
Although, if I were running a 15th level warrior and couldn't hit a 48, I'd be ashamed of myself. Probably commit suicide to atone.
Well if you're a fighter you've got +3 from weapon training. At level 15 I hope you've at least got a +3 weapon. Also, 16 starting strength is not how I'd build a fighter. I'd go with 20 but assuming you want more spread out stats I think 18 is still reasonable.
Then if you manage a flanking bonus then you're looking at +37 to hit. That's not too bad.
Ok, what am I missing?
16th level fighter.
Starting strength 16 + 4 level bumps = 20 + 6 belt = 26 = +8 to hit
+2 weapon / greater weapon focus
Bab 16 +8 (str) +4 (weapon) = 30
Still need an 18 to hit AC 48, and in most of my campaigns a belt +6 would be quite rare.
-- david
Papa.DRBPrep the SoDs and debuffs gang!
Although, if I were running a 15th level warrior and couldn't hit a 48, I'd be ashamed of myself. Probably commit suicide to atone.
Well if you're a fighter you've got +3 from weapon training. At level 15 I hope you've at least got a +3 weapon. Also, 16 starting strength is not how I'd build a fighter. I'd go with 20 but assuming you want more spread out stats I think 18 is still reasonable.
Then if you manage a flanking bonus then you're looking at +37 to hit. That's not too bad.
Don't forget every level 15 fighter needs a bard to sing of his prowess in battle, inspire courage, good hope, and haste him for another +5-6
Ow, I think my eyes popped out of my head a bit there James. Does it Grapple too, because that would make my normal play group lives miserable. :-D
Papa-DRB, you are missing Weapon Training on a Fighter which is an extra +3 or +4 (if you manage to get to 17). Plus additional non Enhancement bonus to attack rolls. Pale Green Ioun stone among others.
That'll start getting you down to 15, 14, 13... Insight, Competence, Moral, and more. And on something like this its good to get something flanking it, even if it's just a summoned toad or small dog.
A camel mount to sicken it for 1d4 rounds, assuming it can be sickened, with a touch attack. -2 to AC, Skill Checks, Saves, To hit and Damage rolls. Shake him with a well built intimidator for another -2 to the same things, and Eye him if you've got a witch or item that does something similar. Lower it some more with a well placed Pyrotechnics (smoke), Heightened up to highest level spell slot and you have one annoyed high AC monster that just lost 6-8 AC. Round 1 setup is complete.
You're welcome.
A camel mount to sicken it for 1d4 rounds, assuming it can be sickened, with a touch attack. -2 to AC, Skill Checks, Saves, To hit and Damage rolls. Shake him with a well built intimidator for another -2 to the same things, and Eye him if you've got a witch or item that does something similar. Lower it some more with a well placed Pyrotechnics (smoke), Heightened up to highest level spell slot and you have one annoyed high AC monster that just lost 6-8 AC. Round 1 setup is complete.
You're welcome.
I say we take off... nuke the site from orbit.
It's the only way to be sure.
Prep the SoDs and debuffs gang!
That's usually the name of the game at high level, anyway. Add in AoEs, ranged touch attacks, and other tactical considerations and this isn't necessarily a TPK by any means.
Although, if I were running a 15th level warrior and couldn't hit a 48, I'd be ashamed of myself. Probably commit suicide to atone.
A bit strongly worded, but a well developed and well buffed warrior should be able to reach a 50% or better hit chance with the first iterative of their primary attack. If the party encounters the villain while they're unprepared, though, it could get brutal.
If Book of 9 Swords is allowed, Emerald Razor, turns one attack into a Touch Attack.
There's a feat called Find Weakness or something where you make a spot check against something's AC to turn your next attack into a touch attack. And didn't they make it into a skill trick, too?
High level Fighter..say 17. +17 BAB, +1 Boots of Speed, +9 Str, +5 sword, +4 Class bonus, +4 Spec Tree = +40. Add on some bardsong, Prayer, Aid, what have you, and 48's not looking too bad.
Martial Weapon from To9S gives +3 to hit if you are in a stance relative to it's beginning, too.
===Aelryinth
A camel mount to sicken it for 1d4 rounds, assuming it can be sickened, with a touch attack. -2 to AC, Skill Checks, Saves, To hit and Damage rolls. Shake him with a well built intimidator for another -2 to the same things, and Eye him if you've got a witch or item that does something similar. Lower it some more with a well placed Pyrotechnics (smoke), Heightened up to highest level spell slot and you have one annoyed high AC monster that just lost 6-8 AC. Round 1 setup is complete.
You're welcome.
1 issue: neither shaken nor sickened reduces AC.
Thanks nonetheless.
OK, I first read that as CR 48! AC 48 is, somehow, better.
I am putting my bet in now that it it also Huge or larger. And has Trample.
But is he immune to poison?
step 1 Cloud kill
step 2 contingency when I cast cloud kill cast wall of stone surrounding the cloud in a hemi-sphere
step 3 wait til you're sure it's dead
step 4 um...
step 5 PROFIT!!!
I am putting my bet in now that it it also Huge or larger. And has Trample.But is he immune to poison?
step 1 Cloud kill
step 2 contingency when I cast cloud kill cast wall of stone surrounding the cloud in a hemi-sphere
step 3 wait til you're sure it's dead
step 4 um...
step 5 PROFIT!!!
Yeah, I'm thinking the expected strat for that baddie is to apply magic.
Yeah, I'm thinking the expected strat for that baddie is to apply magic.I am putting my bet in now that it it also Huge or larger. And has Trample.But is he immune to poison?
step 1 Cloud kill
step 2 contingency when I cast cloud kill cast wall of stone surrounding the cloud in a hemi-sphere
step 3 wait til you're sure it's dead
step 4 um...
step 5 PROFIT!!!
unless its
very big (too much for the area)
very strong (DC 28 to break out)
very magical (any number of ways)
Only Ac 48? Ok so the fighter kills it. Next! *teasing*
I don't believe that high AC suddenly started to matter that much more in PF, compared to 3.5. Unless coupled with unholy offensive ability, like above-mentioned Xanesha (whom I decided not to run with her normal statblock, fearing nearly-guaranteed TPK if she is played to the limit of her abilities), or unless it is touch AC, backed up by equally impressive SR/saves, it is just a speedbump at most.
NOTE: I consider, in my games (and in adventures I develop), the use of the Book of 9 Swords to be cheating. :P
Please do a monk-like book that would totally be 'like' Bo9S, but have your logo on it and Bo9S will get promptly tossed like Goodman Games, Martial Artist book did.
I don't believe that high AC suddenly started to matter that much more in PF, compared to 3.5. Unless coupled with unholy offensive ability, like above-mentioned Xanesha (whom I decided not to run with her normal statblock, fearing nearly-guaranteed TPK if she is played to the limit of her abilities), or unless it is touch AC, backed up by equally impressive SR/saves, it is just a speedbump at most.
Where is Xenesha from? I have heard the name before.
Creative Director
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I don't believe that high AC suddenly started to matter that much more in PF, compared to 3.5. Unless coupled with unholy offensive ability, like above-mentioned Xanesha (whom I decided not to run with her normal statblock, fearing nearly-guaranteed TPK if she is played to the limit of her abilities), or unless it is touch AC, backed up by equally impressive SR/saves, it is just a speedbump at most.
Well... this particular monster has plenty to back up her AC 48. She's not worried at all. (well... yeah. Maybe about those touch attacks a little bit, but what wouldn't be worried about touch attacks?)
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I don't believe that high AC suddenly started to matter that much more in PF, compared to 3.5. Unless coupled with unholy offensive ability, like above-mentioned Xanesha (whom I decided not to run with her normal statblock, fearing nearly-guaranteed TPK if she is played to the limit of her abilities), or unless it is touch AC, backed up by equally impressive SR/saves, it is just a speedbump at most.Where is Xenesha from? I have heard the name before.
Rise of the Runelords #2...Skinsaw Murders.
She just put my shoanti in the neg's yesterday. Byoch.
kinda had to step up to her AND her sister and take an asswuppin because people were dieing left and right, man. Somebody's gonna die here.
I apologize in advance for the AC 48 monster I just put into "Sound of a Thousand Screams."
Makes it a worthy adversary then. ^_^
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And you're apologizing.....because?I apologize in advance for the AC 48 monster I just put into "Sound of a Thousand Screams."
The treasure's worth it though.
And yes, I'm a little punchy. It's after midnight at Paizo. I think that's when the blood-drinking ghosts come out of the windows.
Re-read my post. I was a little punchy when I wrote it, and a stray fragment of guilt and empathy momentarily lodged in my thoughts. It's gone now, though.
Re-read my post. I was a little punchy when I wrote it, and a stray fragment of guilt and empathy momentarily lodged in my thoughts. It's gone now, though.And you're apologizing.....because?I apologize in advance for the AC 48 monster I just put into "Sound of a Thousand Screams."
The treasure's worth it though.
And yes, I'm a little punchy. It's after midnight at Paizo. I think that's when the blood-drinking ghosts come out of the windows.
That's our malevolent adventure path creative director that we all know and love / loathe! :P
Shivering Touch! Shivering Touch!but what wouldn't be worried about touch attacks?)*Gasp* Dragon!!!
~shivers~ BRRRRRRR.....!!! HEY! Watch where you put that hand!
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Creative Director
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Shivering Touch! Shivering Touch!but what wouldn't be worried about touch attacks?)*Gasp* Dragon!!!
And this is the point where I state that my contributions to Frostburn included:
Neanderthals
Uldras
The Frostfell deities
Most of the feats
Several prestige classes (including the cloud anchorite, the frost mage, the frostrager, the knight of the iron glacier, the primeval, the rimefire witch, the stormsinger, and the winterhaunt of Iborighu)
All of the weapons and exotic materials
A few of the spells (I believe anticold sphere, mantle of the icy soul, maybe summon giants...)
Most of the magic items
A few of the monsters (rimefire eidolon, shivhad, spirit animal, and tlalusk... and the neanderthal and uldra too, I suppose)
Delzomen's Iceforge and Icerazer (along with my actual cartography with a couple of photoshop filters... my first and only published cartography credit to date!)
Not the shivering touch spell. That one's not my fault. It should have never seen print. Spells that do stuff like that should function like ray of enfeeblement or touch of idiocy... or should be a LOT higher level.
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Re-read my post. I was a little punchy when I wrote it, and a stray fragment of guilt and empathy momentarily lodged in my thoughts. It's gone now, though.And you're apologizing.....because?I apologize in advance for the AC 48 monster I just put into "Sound of a Thousand Screams."
The treasure's worth it though.
And yes, I'm a little punchy. It's after midnight at Paizo. I think that's when the blood-drinking ghosts come out of the windows.
You could've......made it a.c. 54,.....and then said "oops....I was punchy....bad maths punchy wong....sorry...." if anybody caught it before it saw print.
Wow JJ you made some of my favorite stuff for really hurting people. The Frost mage in the ice material full plate with eschew materials in particular.
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And this is the point where I state that my contributions to Frostburn included:
Neanderthals
Uldras
The Frostfell deities
Most of the feats
Several prestige classes (including the cloud anchorite, the frost mage, the frostrager, the knight of the iron glacier, the primeval, the rimefire witch, the stormsinger, and the winterhaunt of Iborighu)
All of the weapons and exotic materials
A few of the spells (I believe anticold sphere, mantle of the icy soul, maybe summon giants...)
Most of the magic items
A few of the monsters (rimefire eidolon, shivhad, spirit animal, and tlalusk... and the neanderthal and uldra too, I suppose)
Delzomen's Iceforge and Icerazer (along with my actual cartography with a couple of photoshop filters... my first and only published cartography credit to date!)Not the shivering touch spell. That one's not my fault. It should have never seen print. Spells that do stuff like that should function like ray of enfeeblement or touch of idiocy... or should be a LOT higher level.
Cool! Loved the Iceforge; it was a Frostfell location in the planar-themed Eberron campaign I DMed for a few years. Best moment was
Soooooo--this gives me hope for a Mammoth Lords/Linnorm Kings Adventure Path down the road, seeing how involved you were in this book!
Book of 9 swords to be cheating...
Are you against the feat that effectively does the same as emerald razor, or the skill trick that allows a spot check for a touch attack?
I also presume you loathe wraithstrike like all proper beings...
Also, Contingency can only cast spells taht affect YOU. So, no fireballs on a waiting trigger. So cloud kill and wall of stone doesn't work. Now, ifyou Quickened one of the pair, you'd have a potential combo. I believe in Pathfinder you get a save to avoid being trapped, however.
==Aelryinth
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Creative Director
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Are you against the feat that effectively does the same as emerald razor, or the skill trick that allows a spot check for a touch attack?
I also presume you loathe wraithstrike like all proper beings...
Also, Contingency can only cast spells taht affect YOU. So, no fireballs on a waiting trigger. So cloud kill and wall of stone doesn't work. Now, ifyou Quickened one of the pair, you'd have a potential combo. I believe in Pathfinder you get a save to avoid being trapped, however.
==Aelryinth
Nah. I'm just against the general flavor of the book. I haven't actually read the book, since the flavor more or less kept me from ever being interested in it in the first place. :-P
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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I figured shivering touch wasn't your fault. Brought that one up on the chat room on Thursday or so as an example of how ability damage with no save or mitigation had issues :)
AC 48 on a high level foe...guess I'd hope some of it is dispellable or otherwise can be handled, else it seems to fly a bit afoul of the AC-by-CR guidelines. I personally enjoy having to work a foe's defenses for a bit rather than just pile on the damage.
Hard to say how big a deal it is without knowing the creature. A nasty large or huge fiend with a high AC is harder to deal with than a dragon with the same, in my experience. Medium-sized humanoids are probably the easiest group to fight when their armor classes are insane.
I figured shivering touch wasn't your fault. Brought that one up on the chat room on Thursday or so as an example of how ability damage with no save or mitigation had issues :)
AC 48 on a high level foe...guess I'd hope some of it is dispellable or otherwise can be handled, else it seems to fly a bit afoul of the AC-by-CR guidelines. I personally enjoy having to work a foe's defenses for a bit rather than just pile on the damage.
Hard to say how big a deal it is without knowing the creature. A nasty large or huge fiend with a high AC is harder to deal with than a dragon with the same, in my experience. Medium-sized humanoids are probably the easiest group to fight when their armor classes are insane.
Those AC by CR guidelines are in my opinion noticeably on the low side...
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Those AC by CR guidelines are in my opinion noticeably on the low side...
Well, if they're not what we're intended to use when designing creatures and challenges, then Paizo can run up a new set for us to use a benchmarks.
For me they seem pretty close to the mark for a typical AC for a given CR, particularly when you leave out short-term buffs (such as will often be in a stat block in an adventure). There's a lot of swing in the stat for an actual creature, with a high-AC foe probably running 4-5 points higher. A good adventure includes some things that are easy to hit (so the people with power attack can go to town), some that are right in the desired range (so the game functions as expected), and some that are really hard to hit (so that the party has to change their tactics up a bit). Pathfinder adventures tend to nail that every time.
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Creative Director
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Those AC by CR guidelines are in my opinion noticeably on the low side...
Yup; those guidelines are actually based on what a typical core character can hopefully hit, damage, and endure; Jason crunched a lot of numbers to get them. Note that I said a "typical core" character. This is more or less an unwavering requirement. If we balanced things lower so that we assumed a "character built by a beginner" then the majority of players would find things too easy. And if we assumed an "absolutely min-maxed character built by an expert," then the majority of the players would find things too hard.
One of the realities of designing adventures for thousands of people you don't know over designing an adventure for a half dozen people you know really well, basically.
And yes... the numbers ARE baselines. Monsters that can buff themselves can go well above these numbers, but those buffs take time and can be removed, obviously.
The monster that started this all is a CR 17 monster. It does indeed have some buffs going to get its AC up to 48 (16 higher than its CR expects). Which is in fact what prompted me to brag on this thread about its murder-potential.
Those AC by CR guidelines are in my opinion noticeably on the low side...Yup; those guidelines are actually based on what a typical core character can hopefully hit, damage, and endure; Jason crunched a lot of numbers to get them. Note that I said a "typical core" character. This is more or less an unwavering requirement. If we balanced things lower so that we assumed a "character built by a beginner" then the majority of players would find things too easy. And if we assumed an "absolutely min-maxed character built by an expert," then the majority of the players would find things too hard.
One of the realities of designing adventures for thousands of people you don't know over designing an adventure for a half dozen people you know really well, basically.
And yes... the numbers ARE baselines. Monsters that can buff themselves can go well above these numbers, but those buffs take time and can be removed, obviously.
The monster that started this all is a CR 17 monster. It does indeed have some buffs going to get its AC up to 48 (16 higher than its CR expects). Which is in fact what prompted me to brag on this thread about its murder-potential.
And I look forward to running the beastie ^_^ - players are a creative lot.
MWA HAHAHAHAHA!
The encounter I just finished developing has a bad guy who casts time stop. AND THAT'S JUST THE BEGINNING!
In case no one noticed, I'm having a blast developing a full-on super-high-level adventure for the first time since the climax of Legacy of Fire.
Kill zem ... kill zem all!!
Do your worst.
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MWA HAHAHAHAHA!
The encounter I just finished developing has a bad guy who casts time stop. AND THAT'S JUST THE BEGINNING!
In case no one noticed, I'm having a blast developing a full-on super-high-level adventure for the first time since the climax of Legacy of Fire.
*cry* As long as he doesn't use it to cast summon monster IX every round he's in there, we should be allright...he doesn't do that, right? Right?!