What exactly is Knowledge (local) supposed to represent? Is it knowledge of a local area to your character or is it a general knowledge of all urban areas
What exactly is Knowledge (local) supposed to represent? Is it knowledge of a local area to your character or is it a general knowledge of all urban areasGeneral knowledge of all Urban Areas. I have known some DM's who make you choose each local area though.
Thank you for your quick response
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Thank you for your quick responseWhat exactly is Knowledge (local) supposed to represent? Is it knowledge of a local area to your character or is it a general knowledge of all urban areasGeneral knowledge of all Urban Areas. I have known some DM's who make you choose each local area though.
You are very welcome. :)
Isn't 'local' a relative term? And why does it necessarily mean 'urban'?
I'm pretty sure knowledge: local refers to a more specific area. Like someone might know a lot of details about the city of Westcrown, stuff that only someone who has lived there for years knows.
What exactly is Knowledge (local) supposed to represent? Is it knowledge of a local area to your character or is it a general knowledge of all urban areas
I use knowledge: local as a measure of general knowledge about the local campaign area. In the case of Golarion, the local campaign area might be Varisia or Cheliax. Someone with knowledge:local (Varisia) will know about the major powers at work in Varisia, the customs of the Shoanti tribes, the forms of address favored by the Bloatmages of Kaer Maga, etc. With a penalty to his check he might know information about neighboring areas like Isger or Cheliax. With a really significant penalty he might even know basic facts about areas outside the inner sea.
I also tend to give all characters regardless of class, knowledge: local as a trained class skill and 1 free rank at 1st level in their homeland. This gives me the ability to provide basic information about the setting without having to use intelligence ability checks.
Also if you make local knowledge too 'all-encompassing' then you take a lot away from the Bard's bardic knowledge ability.
I don't allow my PCs to be able to use Knowledge: Local until they've been in an area at least 24 hours in order to have an excuse to have heard all the local rumors and such. Otherwise it just doesn't make sense why the PC would be able to just walk into a town she's never been in and know all the local rumors just because she has the skill.
I would almost assume that Knowledge (local) reflects the idea that most towns and communities follow some basic patterns and you use Knowledge (local) to understand these patterns.
I don't allow my PCs to be able to use Knowledge: Local until they've been in an area at least 24 hours in order to have an excuse to have heard all the local rumors and such. Otherwise it just doesn't make sense why the PC would be able to just walk into a town she's never been in and know all the local rumors just because she has the skill.
Isn't that more of a function of the Gather Information aspect of Diplomacy rather than Knowledge: Local? Visitors to Korvosa might know basic facts like Queen Ileosa is in charge, that a Hellknight chapter house is outside the city, some of the major features of Korvosa, names of religious figures etc. In order to find out rumors that Queen Ileosa desposed of her husband, who the major underworld figures are, which merchant family is on the brink of ruin and might be willing to finance some adventurers is more of a function of buying people drinks and using diplomacy.
Knowledge (local) is essentially knowledge (nature) for humanoids. People seem to have little problem with k:nature being able to know the mating habits of marine mammals and the venom power of a giant desert scorpion or whether or not bears poo in the woods. K:local is basically the same thing, just for every humanoid habit, nature and characteristic. It tells you about elves' habit of making things from leaves and the anatomy of giants and the city structure of boggards and the king of Mastillan is rumored to have descended from. It's just as diverse an ability.
It only seems weird because very few of us players are biologists, historians or wizards. I'm sure k:history letting you know whatever you need about ten thousand years of history in a hundred different nations would seem ridiculous to anyone who took a second to look at how specialized historians are. Nature (as mentioned above) covers hundreds of biology specializations. K:arcana is just as encompassing. Dragons and constructs are very different beings, and yet, still one check.
All knowledge skills are an abstraction. Local is just one that people have more experience with, and we balk at how ridiculous it seems to know everything it is supposed to encompass. But they all do that. The whole skill system does that. The whole rule set does that. It's all abstractions and simplifications.
Also, it should be noted that bardic knowledge is just a bonus to knowledge checks, not a unique ability to randomly know everything about something.
I treat Knowledge: Local like Linguistics. Each rank allows you to apply it to a different area. All ranks are used for rolls.
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i use knowledge:local as a catch all for a specific area< i just set the DC's a bit higher then for other knowledges (for instance, lets say a party is trying to find out what locations white dragons like to dwell. I have anyone with knowledge arcana roll vs maybe a DC 20. if some one had a knowledge local for an area that had problems with white dragons, Id allow them to roll it at maybe a DC 22. )
this make knowledge local useful when not in the area inwhich you have knowledge local, but doesnt make other skills obsolete (sure your knowledge local:Korvosa is going to be very useful in a game based in Korvosa, but those who study more specific arenas will be naturally better at the specifics)
*best elvis voice* Why thank yooou, thank you very muuuch.
I like the way Paizo treated in the module, Hollow's Last Hope. You encounter a mysterious corpse in the wood, make a local knowledge check and you recall a rumor about some missing hunters. Looking for some ruins in the nearby woods, local knowledge check to find-out were. Looking for the tavern, local knowledge check...kinda like gather information and kinda not.
Also if you make local knowledge too 'all-encompassing' then you take a lot away from the Bard's bardic knowledge ability.
note that in pathfinder the 'bardic knowledge' ability has changed, bards instead get a bonus on all knowledge checks equal to half their bard level.
I personally think this is much better than the old bardic knowledge, and I assume knowledge local to work much like the old bardic ability did, though a nice houserule would be to focus on a specific area and have more generic allround knowledge of other areas. This might create some interesting flavour especially in particulary large settings.
Alternatively the DM can just modify the check for areas you are not very familiar with initialy. (I pick this one, penalty can be negated by research or generally just spending time in the area)
general knowledge of all urban areas
This.
At least that's my interpretation - and as it doesn't ask players to choose what geographic area (ie a sub field) then it stands to reason that you don't have to. This would also give it the same sort of depth of scope the other Knowledge skills have.
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I have a real problem with the design of Knowledge: Local.
It doesn't make sense that a PC would know about all kinds of cities, towns, etc. Also, it's way too expensive to just represent one locality. Maybe it should have been designed where 1 rank equals three different localities (1 rank of Perform gives you a few different types).
Knowledge (local) is essentially knowledge (nature) for humanoids.
Interesting but I don't buy it. If Knowledge Local was about humanoids the way you describe everyone would have a good 5 ranks for free, and it would be a class skill for every Class.
Nonetheless, it's a neat interpretation.The whole skill system (is "ridiculous").
Agreed!
Instead of giving the lame +2 synergy to a specific aspect of your Knowledge check when you get a little specialized info on something, it could be designed a little better, maybe...Knowledge (various)
*When you put 1 rank into a Knowledge skill you choose 4 specific areas of that knowledge and can make checks regarding those 4 areas (ie. Planes: 9 Hells: politics, 9 Hells: geography, Abyss: (general), Gehenna: (general) ).
*If you have one rank in a knowledge skill you can make checks in areas you don't specialize in if the DC is 20 or lower.
*You get a +3 bonus in the 4 areas of a Knowledge you specialize in.
Knowledge (Local)
*When you put 1 rank into Knowledge: Local you select 3 localities (a city, a town & township, a rural county, etc).
*the rest works the 3.5 way
Knowledge (Architecture)
*Should be fed to the Far Realm and never thought of ever again. DIE, DIE.
I treat Knowledge: Local like Linguistics. Each rank allows you to apply it to a different area. All ranks are used for rolls.
Do you have to pick the area when you gain the rank, or can you wait until you move to a new location? It's fairly common to spend the first several levels in your "home city", and then start traveling the world.
If you gained 5 ranks in Knowledge (Local) while living in Korvosa, it would be strange the you are now an expert on Cheliax. It would also be disappointing to the player when the campaign moves to Kaer Maga and he hadn't picked that location.
I don't allow my PCs to be able to use Knowledge: Local until they've been in an area at least 24 hours in order to have an excuse to have heard all the local rumors and such. Otherwise it just doesn't make sense why the PC would be able to just walk into a town she's never been in and know all the local rumors just because she has the skill.Isn't that more of a function of the Gather Information aspect of Diplomacy rather than Knowledge: Local? Visitors to Korvosa might know basic facts like Queen Ileosa is in charge, that a Hellknight chapter house is outside the city, some of the major features of Korvosa, names of religious figures etc. In order to find out rumors that Queen Ileosa desposed of her husband, who the major underworld figures are, which merchant family is on the brink of ruin and might be willing to finance some adventurers is more of a function of buying people drinks and using diplomacy.
The two are a bit synonymous.
(1 rank of Perform gives you a few different types)
Uh, no, it doesn't.
If Knowledge Local was about humanoids the way you describe everyone would have a good 5 ranks for free, and it would be a class skill for every Class.
You might want to look up which skill you use to identify humanoids.
Hint: It ain't Knowledge: Nature. Or Nobility. Or History. Or Geography. Or Planes. Or Arcana. Or Engineering. Or Religion. Or Dungeoneering.
I treat Knowledge: Local like Linguistics. Each rank allows you to apply it to a different area. All ranks are used for rolls.Do you have to pick the area when you gain the rank, or can you wait until you move to a new location? It's fairly common to spend the first several levels in your "home city", and then start traveling the world.
If you gained 5 ranks in Knowledge (Local) while living in Korvosa, it would be strange the you are now an expert on Cheliax. It would also be disappointing to the player when the campaign moves to Kaer Maga and he hadn't picked that location.
I allow some flexibility in that regard. The player can keep a 'slot' open to be filled later (with proper rp justification), or can simply rp where the knowledge came from. If the game starts in Absalom, for example, and the player is from a different region, then justifying knowledge of home region or places he/she may have traveled through to get to the start of the campaign is pretty easy.
Other members of the party can be a source for knowledge as well. A native of a distant country may not pay enough attention to homeland to have know:local, but someone who is a student of such things, could certainly make enough mental connections to do so.
A long sailing journey to somewhere, with people to talk to who know about the area, or even just books, journals, etc., picked up before the journey would work as well.
A pc could also take the time to look for emigres from a distant land to talk to before the journey.
Basically it comes down to study or contacts, preferably a combination of the the two.
Really, I allow just about any justification that doesn't make me frown at the thought of it. The only thing I don't allow is for a character to keep a slot open, step off the boat, and declare him/herself an expert in local customs. Short of that, just convince me.
You might want to look up which skill you use to identify humanoids.Hint: It ain't Knowledge: Nature. Or Nobility. Or History. Or Geography. Or Planes. Or Arcana. Or Engineering. Or Religion. Or Dungeoneering.
Yeah. That's sort of why I made that analogy... *big grin*
Much like Kirth, I roll Gather Information into Knowledge: Local and call it Streetwise, thus making it the go-to skill inm urban areas.
I have a real problem with the design of Knowledge: Local.
It doesn't make sense that a PC would know about all kinds of cities, towns, etc. Also, it's way too expensive to just represent one locality. Maybe it should have been designed where 1 rank equals three different localities (1 rank of Perform gives you a few different types).
Knowledge (local) is essentially knowledge (nature) for humanoids.Interesting but I don't buy it. If Knowledge Local was about humanoids the way you describe everyone would have a good 5 ranks for free, and it would be a class skill for every Class.
Nonetheless, it's a neat interpretation.
that might be true, but I don't think humanoids are the only ones that don't get free knowledge skill, on the other hand in a medieval like setting humans might not know much about anything at all, most do not travel very far from their homestead and rarely get much news about other parts, even if they do that information might not at all be accurate
(travelers might 'enhance' their stories a bit)
Hence why Streetwise is a roguish skill and not a Knowledge skill.
I treat Knowledge: Local like Linguistics. Each rank allows you to apply it to a different area. All ranks are used for rolls.
That is a nice idea.
Another way to look at it would be the same as Knowledge(Current Events). The person is current on the latest news and events.
(psst: gather information isn't a skill anymore)
(psst: gather information isn't a skill anymore)
Its part of the Diplomacy Skill
I know, that's my point.
I know, that's my point.
sorry
Alright, with Knowledge (Local), this has always been the thing. Knowledge (Local) generally tells you anything about your Local area, but anywhere you are, it's Local.
So, what is Knowledge (Local)? Well, I come to think of it as Pathfinder's 'Gather Information' roll. The thing is, when you move into an area, Knowledge (Local) isn't that, all of a sudden, it pops into your mind, Knowledge (Local) is a Roll that says that you have contacts in your local area of your home town that have travelled to this new area, and they are telling you it.
So, as a DM, if a player rolls a Knowledge (Local) check in an area they have never been to before, you should probably tell them that they looked it up in a book that someone gave you from around town, or that one of your dearest friends from back when told you this story...
Pretty much how I use it, there is no good reason that a character had to have visited the place before to use this skill. That's like saying "you've never been to the elemental plane of fire, so you cannot identify the weakness of this creature."
If you are looking for an "official" ruling there is one in the archives. Granted this is for Patfhinder Society, but IMHO that is as official as you get. Joshua Frost posted in the following thread a couple of times regarding this matter. The link is as follows. If you are interested Go to Knowledge (local)? Yeah, I got that. I hope this helps.
I allow some flexibility in that regard. The player can keep a 'slot' open to be filled later (with proper rp justification), or can simply rp where the knowledge came from. If the game starts in Absalom, for example, and the player is from a different region, then justifying knowledge of home region or places he/she may have traveled through to get to the start of the campaign is pretty easy.
Other members of the party can be a source for knowledge as well. A native of a distant country may not pay enough attention to homeland to have know:local, but someone who is a student of such things, could certainly make enough mental connections to do so.
A long sailing journey to somewhere, with people to talk to who know about the area, or even just books, journals, etc., picked up before the journey would work as well.
A pc could also take the time to look for emigres from a distant land to talk to before the journey.
Basically it comes down to study or contacts, preferably a combination of the the two.
Really, I allow just about any justification that doesn't make me frown at the thought of it. The only thing I don't allow is for a character to keep a slot open, step off the boat, and declare him/herself an expert in local customs. Short of that, just convince me.
well now, i'm just curious here, does this mean you handle this the same way for all knowledge skills? like, knowledge planes your players have to pick a specific plane for each rank? knowledge arcana you have to pick a particular subject matter? engineering you have to pick a particular type of structure?
if not, why did you single out knowledge local to be nerfed? just wondering if you have some direct experience with how it breaks the game compared to the other knowledge skills.
Knowledge the Planes does -not- work like Knowledge Local though... that's the point. It would be like allowing you to know all the local rumors in every little community in each plane, rather than broad facts about the plane itself and it's general denizens. Things you could have learned in a book, in other words, rather than rumors and bits of information that you really realistically would have to have been in the community for a minimum length of time to have known.
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What exactly is Knowledge (local) supposed to represent?
Knowledge - Local (legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids, public laws governing sex and private customs including norms and fetishes, martial practitioners, politics, government bureaucracies, petitions, bribes, subterfuge, drinking, flirting, gambling, tailing, origins of place names, folklore, folk remedies)
DC 10 - Know local laws, rulers, and popular locationsDC 10 - Identify a military unit or noble's family by its heraldry, if the unit or family hails from the local area
DC 15 - Know a common rumor or local tradition
DC 20 - Know hidden organizations, rulers, and locations
DC 20 - Know if the opposing force is native to the immediate area
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What exactly is Knowledge (local) supposed to represent?Knowledge - Local (legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids, public laws governing sex and private customs including norms and fetishes, martial practitioners, politics, government bureaucracies, petitions, bribes, subterfuge, drinking, flirting, gambling, tailing, origins of place names, folklore, folk remedies)
DC 10 - Know local laws, rulers, and popular locations
DC 10 - Identify a military unit or noble's family by its heraldry, if the unit or family hails from the local area
DC 15 - Know a common rumor or local tradition
DC 20 - Know hidden organizations, rulers, and locations
DC 20 - Know if the opposing force is native to the immediate area
So, if my character takes 1 point in Knowledge (Local), that is my DC for every city in Golarion? I think that is a bit far fetched. There are very few people in real life that can name any of the above for every country on our world of Earth. I would hazard to guess many people can't name just the ruling king/queen in each country in Western Europe and that would just be a DC 10. Shouldn't one point put into Local be at least narrowed down to a specific region?
So, if my character takes 1 point in Knowledge (Local), that is my DC for every city in Golarion? I think that is a bit far fetched. There are very few people in real life that can name any of the above for every country on our world of Earth. I would hazard to guess many people can't name just the ruling king/queen in each country in Western Europe and that would just be a DC 10. Shouldn't one point put into Local be at least narrowed down to a specific region?
Knowing that are ten hereditary monarchies (and two non-hereditary ones) in Western Europe is DC 10 or 15. Knowing all their names is significantly higher :)
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Yeah, I looked it up also so I could add 1 point to my Knowledge (Western Europe). However, I think that falls under Nobility & Royalty over Local does it not.
What I'm trying to point out is that MOST people don't know there are 12 monarchies in westerrn Europe and 44 world wide.
The rule really needs to be adjusted. If you have Knowledge (Local) with one point spent in it, how do you know about the type of leadership in every country on the planet of Golarion? As the rule stands now, as long as I have one point in Local, I have a shot of knowing all rulers, armies, local customs and laws of ANY country in Golarion that my adventuring group finds itself in. That, imho, is just too encompassing for 1 skill point spent.
I didn't look it up, as I already knew that fact (I'm sad like that) :) That's definitely Knowledge (nobility) though, yes.
ummmm, rumors are a function of diplomacy, not knowledge local. but knowledge planes surely covers your ability to know something about a planar city and the inhabitants there of. every city on every plane that is not the prime material, in fact. knowledge planes is actually more all encompassing than knowledge local since it covers the geography and history of the outer planes, for instance, which are two different skills on the prime material....snip...
Knowledge the Planes does -not- work like Knowledge Local though... that's the point. It would be like allowing you to know all the local rumors in every little community in each plane,...
Meh, I disagree. I've been playing as I stated since 3rd ed, as has everyone I've ever played with. I'm not saying it's right or wrong per say, but it's all I've ever known it to be.
You don't think Knowledge: Local will get you rumors? What will it get you then? You think Knowledge Planes will allow you to know who the current rulers and other info of every kingdom, city or town are in every plane out there? That's pretty silly imo. I would never allow Knowledge: Planes to be used that way.