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I assume you think is works this way because in this text:
Shooting or Throwing into a Melee: If you shoot or throw a ranged weapon at a target engaged in melee with a friendly character, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll. Two characters are engaged in melee if they are enemies of each other and either threatens the other. (An unconscious or otherwise immobilized character is not considered engaged unless he is actually being attacked.)
If your target (or the part of your target you're aiming at, if it's a big target) is at least 10 feet away from the nearest friendly character, you can avoid the –4 penalty, even if the creature you're aiming at is engaged in melee with a friendly character.
If your target is two size categories larger than the friendly characters it is engaged with, this penalty is reduced to –2. There is no penalty for firing at a creature that is three size categories larger than the friendly characters it is engaged with.
Precise Shot: If you have the Precise Shot feat, you don't take this penalty.
...the bolded section doesn't mention spells?
Actually spells that require attack rolls are considered weapons and are subject to this penalty.
Whats worse is, following the RAW, you also need to consider the 'cover' rules if his allies or other opponents in the way - so that could be 8 points of modifier to consider... -4 to you and +4 to him.
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I assume you think is works this way because in this text:
Shooting or Throwing into a Melee: If you shoot or throw a ranged weapon
Actually spells that require attack rolls are considered weapons and are subject to this penalty.
Yes, that was the wording that made me think this. Do you have some other citation for that 2nd part? Thanks!
Yes, that was the wording that made me think this. Do you have some other citation for that 2nd part? Thanks!
184 and 194 really.
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Yes, that was the wording that made me think this. Do you have some other citation for that 2nd part? Thanks!I assume you think is works this way because in this text:
Shooting or Throwing into a Melee: If you shoot or throw a ranged weapon
Actually spells that require attack rolls are considered weapons and are subject to this penalty.
PFRPG p.185 Touch Spells in Combat.
this is the relevant text from the PRD:
Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent's AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.
edit: Not the same wording certainly, but armed attacks and weapons are synonyms mechanically.
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PFRPG p.185 Touch Spells in Combat.this is the relevant text from the PRD:
Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent's AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.edit: Not the same wording certainly, but armed attacks and weapons are synonyms mechanically.
Thanks to you both for the references!
Thanks to you both for the references!
PFRPG p.185 Touch Spells in Combat.this is the relevant text from the PRD:
Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent's AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.edit: Not the same wording certainly, but armed attacks and weapons are synonyms mechanically.
So... this makes presice shot almost a must have for any spell caster using range touch.
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So... this makes presice shot almost a must have for any spell caster using range touch.
Unless you plan on firing only magic missile, you will want Point Blank and Precise Shot. Rays, orbs, etc all follow the same rules.
Is it unfair to enforce these penalties on spell casters because they have less feats?
No.
A -4 penalty on a ranged touch attack brings the target back closer to the AC of the foe. I know sometimes there isn't a difference of 4 between their Touch AC and their full AC, but often it is much bigger than 4.
If you were building a spell caster knowing that you would regularly use Rays you should have a high Dex, and you should consider taking as many feats as you can to help it along, such as Weapon Focus (Ray), Precise Shot and Point Blank Shot.
After reading all the posts online about this I am sure that most groups use the -4 "rule" in their games and I really don't care if they do. It's just I can't find anything in the literature to support this and it annoys me that this is presented as clear cut.
It's a ranged attack roll.
Generic rule: Ranged attacks take a penalty for firing into melee.
There is no specific rule for ranged touch attacks that overrides this.
You take the into melee penalty if you throw a dagger as a ranged attack into melee. Even though thrown weapons are not called out specifically as taking the penalty too.
You take the into melee penalty if you throw a splash weapon as a ranged touch attack into melee. Even though thrown splash weapons are not called out specifically as taking the penalty too.
You take the into melee penalty if you fire a ray (ranged touch attack) into melee. Even though ranged touch attacks are not called out specifically as taking the penalty too.
If you don't want to use up two feats on point blank and precise shot, refrain from firing rays into melee. Use non ranged attack roll spells or you might put a scorching ray into the fighter's back.
Weapon Focus certainly works with ray spells, despite it too stating it works with "weapons". Precise Shot is needed to overcome the -4 penalty for shooting into melee with ranged touch spells.
Is it unfair to enforce these penalties on spell casters because they have less feats?
No.
A -4 penalty on a ranged touch attack brings the target back closer to the AC of the foe. I know sometimes there isn't a difference of 4 between their Touch AC and their full AC, but often it is much bigger than 4.
If you were building a spell caster knowing that you would regularly use Rays you should have a high Dex, and you should consider taking as many feats as you can to help it along, such as Weapon Focus (Ray), Precise Shot and Point Blank Shot.
You forgot to mention that spellcasters usually have lower BA, fewer feats (well you did mention this), can't put enhancement bonuses on their "weapons", have limits on how often they can use their "weapons" and usually have lower stats in dex and str. Lets not forget concentration, spell resistance and saves when they apply.
After reading all the posts online about this I am sure that most groups use the -4 "rule" in their games and I really don't care if they do. It's just I can't find anything in the literature to support this and it annoys me that this is presented as clear cut.
Right now I am playing an Oracle with the Reach metamagic feat. Mainly a healer but has Inflict Critical Wounds which it dishes out if there is nothing else to do. By using the Reach feat I change the range from touch to close and make a ranged touch attack. I can't find anything that says I should get a shooting into melee -4 penalty on my attack roll. And I've been trying hard to find it.
Thanks for your reply though
A ranged touched attacked is still a ranged attack. In order to avoid the penalty you would have to show that it is a melee attack.
For the record all attack rolls are either melee attacks or ranged attacks.Touch attack variants only allow them to avoid armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses. It provides no other benefits.
This shows the two attacks
Attack Bonus
Your attack bonus with a melee weapon is the following:
Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + size modifier
With a ranged weapon, your attack bonus is the following:
Base attack bonus + Dexterity modifier + size modifier + range penalty
A little further down it says:
Touch Attacks: Some attacks completely disregard armor, including shields and natural armor—the aggressor need only touch a foe for such an attack to take full effect. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee).
When my players ask why they get a -4 penalty for shooting into combat, I explain that the combat obviously isn't turn-based, nor is it nice and ordered with everyone standing in their squares. Both enemies and allies are actively engaged and moving when you fire into they're melee. It's tough to predict where their next move will take them.
So why should a spell (or any ranged touch) ignore the -4 to hit from the simulated melee?
Is there a place in the book that says that damaging/agressive spells are considered a weapon/ranged weapon. If so I will be very glad and all this will be cleared up and you guys are right about all you have said. I have been trying to find it but no luck so far. If there is no such statement then I can't see why this rule should apply to spells. If that was supposed to be the rule then paizo needs to fix the wording.
There are at least two FAQ items that support the statement that rays/ranged-touch spells are considered to be weapons:
Ray: Do rays count as weapons for the purpose of spells and effects that affect weapons?
One reason is that it doesn't say so in the rules. It would have been so easy to include spells in the shooting into melee description and avoid all this confusion. It says "If you shoot or throw a ranged weapon at a target...." All it needs in there is cast a spell. We shoot with a bow, throw an axe and cast a spell. Then, in a the subchapter after this named "Cast a Spell" it explaines the mechanics of casting spells. Not one post has connected the dots on this. I know that a ranged touch attack is a ranged attack, but the shooting into melee description doesn't say "if you make a ranged attack at a target" it specifically says if you are shooting or throwing a weapon into melee then you get the -4 penalty.
When making an attack with a spell, you follow the rules as if the spell were your weapon. Spells have additional rules, but unless otherwise noted, they function just like regular attacks. If they added "cast a spell" then someone would complain that "supernatural ability" wasn't listed.
Unless something is called out as a special case, assume it is part of it's closest equivalent.
One reason is that it doesn't say so in the rules. It would have been so easy to include spells in the shooting into melee description and avoid all this confusion. It says "If you shoot or throw a ranged weapon at a target...."When my players ask why they get a -4 penalty for shooting into combat, I explain that the combat obviously isn't turn-based, nor is it nice and ordered with everyone standing in their squares. Both enemies and allies are actively engaged and moving when you fire into they're melee. It's tough to predict where their next move will take them.
So why should a spell (or any ranged touch) ignore the -4 to hit from the simulated melee?
It does not say magic because the melee and ranged attack rules don't care if the attack is made by a physical or magical weapon. To you the fact that it is magic means there should be different rules, but if that were the case then ranged touch attacks would not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Both magic and physical weapons use the same attacking rules. Touch attacks also are not a factor. Case in point, not all touch attack comes from spells, but they still are expected to follow the attack roll rules even when they come from a monster's natural ability or supernatual ability.
The spells reference the melee touch and ranged touch rules already. That means you go to the rules which I already quoted, which support the above paragraph because everything that use any attack points you to the combat chapter to those same very rules.
There is nothing in the rules to indicate spells get special treatment from any other touch attack. There is nothing in the rules to indicate that touch attacks get special treatment other than what is mentioned. In short spells don't gt special treatment. Aiming a ray so it does not hit your buddy is who is figthing someone as they are moving around is not going to be any easier than any other ranged attack, and I don't see why it should be so.
It really does not matter if they are called out as weapons or not. The rules don't reference ranged touch weapons because no such things exist. They reference ranged touch attacks(the method by which the damage/effect) is delivered.
As long as you are using that method you must follow the rules of that method unless otherwise stated.
If your sucking the -8 then move to where there is no cover that - back to -4 and is bigget that meduiam aim at a square that is not in threatned in melee so - 0. Range touch is low on 80% of most monster not made up be the GM.
And as far as feat go you spend them as to what your role is. If you want to range stiker the spend the 2 of 10 base any PC get. big deal.
"NO PC can do Every Thing All the Time"
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Assuming that the -4 rule is true, and by what I've read I'm convinced.
Then I would guess all of the following feats would be usable by a spellcaster, primarily a gish like the magus.
Point-Blank Shot (Combat)
You are especially accurate when making ranged attacks
against close targets.
Benefit: You get a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls
with ranged weapons at ranges of up to 30 feet.
A caster would gain a +1 Damage to all ranged spells that require a roll to hit!!
Percise Shot (Combat)
You are adept at firing ranged attacks into melee.
Prerequisite: Point-Blank Shot.
Benefit: You can shoot or throw ranged weapons at an
opponent engaged in melee without taking the standard
–4 penalty on your attack roll.
Well you kinda have to have this one so you must take Point-Blank Shot!
Rapid Shot (Combat)
You can make an additional ranged attack.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point-Blank Shot.
Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a ranged
weapon, you can fire one additional time this round. All of
your attack rolls take a –2 penalty when using
Rapid Shot.
This one is iffy, however if a spell is considered a weapon, and a ranged spell that requires an attack roll is affected as if it is a ranged weapon then this feat gives you an extra spell, however it would have to be a ranged touch attack, right.
Deadly Aim (Combat)
You can make exceptionally deadly ranged attacks by
pinpointing a foe’s weak spot, at the expense of making
the attack less likely to succeed.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all
ranged attack rolls to gain a +2 bonus on all ranged damage
rolls. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every
+4 thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus
to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this
feat before making an attack roll and its effects last until
your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch
attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
This could be a great add on to some spells!! Especially on a magus!
Shot on the Run (Combat)
You can move, fire a ranged weapon, and move again before
your foes can react.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, Point-Blank
Shot, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: As a full-round action, you can move up to your
speed and make a single ranged attack at any point during
your movement.
Normal: You cannot move before and after an attack
with a ranged weapon.
Might be really useful for a Magus or other Gish Concepts
Improved Precise Shot (Combat)
Your ranged attacks ignore anything but total concealment
and cover.
Prerequisites: Dex 19, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot,
base attack bonus +11.
Benefit: Your ranged attacks ignore the AC bonus
granted
to targets by anything less than total cover, and the
miss chance granted to targets by anything less than total
concealment. Total cover and total concealment
provide
their normal benefits against your ranged attacks.
Normal: See the normal rules on the effects of cover and
concealment in Chapter 8.
Just because you can! It works only if ranged touch spells are considered by default as ranged weapons!
Impact Critical Shot (Combat, Critical)
With a series of ranged attacks, you bring your foes to their
knees or force them to move.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point-Blank Shot, base attack
bonus +9.
Benefit: Whenever you score a critical hit with a ranged
attack, in addition to the normal damage your attack
deals, if your confirmation roll exceeds your opponent’s
CMD, you can push your opponent back as if from the
bull rush combat maneuver or knock that target prone
as if from a trip combat maneuver. If you choose to bull
rush, you cannot move with the target. Your maneuver
does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
Normal: You must perform a bull rush combat maneuver
to bull rush an opponent, and you must perform a trip
combat maneuver to trip an opponent.
What can I say anyone up for a bullrushing color spray! Or acid orb!
Snap Shot (Combat)
With a ranged weapon, you can take advantage of any
opening in your opponent’s defenses.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot,
Weapon Focus, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: While wielding a ranged weapon with which
you have Weapon Focus, you threaten squares within 5
feet of you. You can make attacks of opportunity with
that ranged weapon. You do not provoke attacks of
opportunity when making a ranged attack as an attack
of opportunity.Normal: While wielding a ranged weapon, you threaten
no squares and can make no attacks of opportunity with
that weapon.
Really, Really, I can now threaten squares with a spell? I guess I can especially if I hold on to the charge.
Improved Snap Shot (Combat)
You can take advantage of your opponent’s vulnerabilities
from a greater distance, and without exposing yourself.
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot,
Snap Shot, Weapon Focus, base attack bonus +9.
Benefit: You threaten an additional 10 feet with Snap Shot.
Normal: Making a ranged attack provokes attacks of
opportunity.
Even Better! Those Ray spells shall become even better.
Opening Volley (Combat)
Your ranged assault leaves your foe disoriented and
vulnerable to your melee attack.
Benefit: Whenever you deal damage with a ranged
attack, you gain a +4 circumstance bonus on the next
melee attack roll you make against the opponent. This
attack must occur before the end of your next turn.
Mahaaaa, great combo for a gish like the magus, if this hold up. What do you guys think?
Lets not forget Improved Critical etc...Weapon Specialization Greater weapon specialization etc..
mcgreeno, of the ones you listed, the only ones useable would be point blank shot, precise shot, deadly aim, improved precise shot, impact critical shot, and opening volley
You have to cast the spell in order to be allowed to make the ranged attack. Anything that allows you extra attacks is out because you can't use a weapon that you have to cast a spell to use unless you also get an extra casting of the spell.
It's easier understood if you realize that casting a ray spell doesn't force you to make an "attack action" or a "full attack action", the spell requires you to make an ranged attack roll to complete it. Thus anything that applies to "ranged attack rolls" or "ranged attacks" is fine, but anything that would require you to make some sort of action other than the action required to cast the spell is out the window. Also, you can't hold anything but touch spells, btw.
mcgreeno, of the ones you listed, the only ones useable would be point blank shot, precise shot, deadly aim, improved precise shot, impact critical shot, and opening volley
You have to cast the spell in order to be allowed to make the ranged attack. Anything that allows you extra attacks is out because you can't use a weapon that you have to cast a spell to use unless you also get an extra casting of the spell.
It's easier understood if you realize that casting a ray spell doesn't force you to make an "attack action" or a "full attack action", the spell requires you to make an ranged attack roll to complete it. Thus anything that applies to "ranged attack rolls" or "ranged attacks" is fine, but anything that would require you to make some sort of action other than the action required to cast the spell is out the window. Also, you can't hold anything but touch spells, btw.
You have to cast the spell in order to be allowed to make the ranged attack. Anything that allows you extra attacks is out because you can't use a weapon that you have to cast a spell to use unless you also get an extra casting of the spell.
I don't know, a spell is not a weapon. However it is still considered a weapon. If a feat gives you threat with a weapon it should allow you to cast the spell.
If your saying that we should apply all the negative modifiers to spells because they can be considered weapons, yet all of the positive modifiers can not be applied because they are spells, I have to disagree.
For a bow, you must load the arrow, For a spell you must grab the components.
For a bow you must aim and fire
For a spell you must aim and well fire. Except you have a limited amount per day!
Now magic is roughly balanced with weapon damage, but the point you allow me to start adding +1 here, and +2 there, and +2. Then the balance starts to break.
However when you want to make spells the same as Ranged Combat but not the same as ranged combat, folks get confused. Which is it.
1) A Ranged Combat Weapon (and thus all benefits and negatives)
2) A Ranged Touch Spell. (Just simple magic!)
Just as the Bow is the descriptor for the arrows, so is the Spell a descriptor for the magic's effect. It's all damage.
As for me, I don't think I will ever bring this up to my GM, because it already takes to long to do a combat in the bloody game. It seems all one does is look up rules and sub rules and then more rules. They can't even make a computer game that can follow the rules. LOL
I don't know, a spell is not a weapon. However it is still considered a weapon. If a feat gives you threat with a weapon it should allow you to cast the spell.
If your saying that we should apply all the negative modifiers to spells because they can be considered weapons, yet all of the positive modifiers can not be applied because they are spells, I have to disagree.
For a bow, you must load the arrow, For a spell you must grab the components.
For a bow you must aim and fire
For a spell you must aim and well fire. Except you have a limited amount per day!
Now magic is roughly balanced with weapon damage, but the point you allow me to start adding +1 here, and +2 there, and +2. Then the balance starts to break.
However when you want to make spells the same as Ranged Combat but not the same as ranged combat, folks...
The spell is not a weapon. The casting of the spell gives you a ranged touch attack with a ray, which is considered a weapon.
Rays are different from other weapons in that you can't get your weapon back, or even shoot it, until you cast the spell again.
It's like a throwing weapon which takes a standard action to draw. You wouldn't be able to make an attack of opportunity with that weapon if you hadn't drawn it, even if you had snap shot, because you would need to expend the necessary action to get it out first. And unfortunately for ray spells, you have to throw the weapon as part of drawing (casting) it, but you at least get to do it for free (not an action) as soon as it's out, instead of having to waste a standard action or more to shoot it.
With a bow and arrow it is different, because you can have the bow already drawn, and you can make attacks with it without needing an action other than the action triggering the attack roll (this point was actually a point of debate regarding snap shot for just that reason actually). If you had to draw a new bow with a standard action every time you shot an arrow, and you could only shoot the bow as part of drawing it, you wouldn't be able to use those feats with a bow either.
Edited for clarity
Casmat is correct.
I don't know, a spell is not a weapon. However it is still considered a weapon. If a feat gives you threat with a weapon it should allow you to cast the spell.
If your saying that we should apply all the negative modifiers to spells because they can be considered weapons, yet all of the positive modifiers can not be applied because they are spells, I have to disagree.
Spells do have some rules of their own not related to combat, such as this one:
A spell with a casting time of 1 swift action doesn't count against your normal limit of one spell per round.
So, you can only cast one spell per round, unless one of your spells is cast as a swift action.
mcgreeno, of the ones you listed, the only ones useable would be point blank shot, precise shot, deadly aim, improved precise shot, impact critical shot, and opening volley
A) Point Blank Shot says with "ranged weapons" and makes no mention of rays or anything.
B) Precise Shot mentions weapons as well, again making no reference to spells or rays or anything of that nature.
C) Deadly Aim would work fine with any ranged attack, but does not work on "touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage." Ranged spells are generally ranged touch attacks, and thus not subject to the benefits of this feat.
D) Improved Precise Shot should work fine with any ranged attack, including spells.
E) Impact Critical Shot should work fine with any ranged attack, including spells.
F) Opening Volley should work fine with any ranged attack, including spells.
So, I would think the only feats (of the ones listed above) that work with ranged spell casting would be Improved Precise Shot, Impact Critical Shot, and Opening Volley.
There are two reasons I don't believe Core considers ranged spells to be weapons.
1. Spells aren't on the list of weapons.
2. The feat Weapon Focus.
--Weapon Focus says, "Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat."
"For the purposes of this feat" makes me think that rays aren't considered weapons for the purposes of other feats.
Of course, I may be behind the times, as I mentioned above. I'm not currently aware of anything (outside of 3.5) that allows ranged spell casting to benefit from Point Blank Shot, or Precise Shot. Deadly Aim would only be useful for some roll-to-hit spell that isn't a ranged touch attack.
Feel free to correct me with some PRD quotes if I'm wrong. I may very well be.
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Maybe already covered somewhere and I missed it but...
A ranged touch attack into melee DOES NOT incur a -4 to the roll (as firing a bow into melee would - for example), correct?
It's no secret that PF is based on 3.5; and IMO it's what 4.0 should have been. With that being said... A very simple point of reference addresses this question. Complete Arcane Pg. 72 & 73
So 4+ year necro AND horribly poor understanding of the rules? Double whammy here.
I am not reading 4 year old post to find out everything you got wrong, but I can already tell CK, that you do not know the rules well.
At first I thought it was Kobold Cleaver trying to be funny, but I see it's not, so this is not as entertaining as I thought it would turn out to be.
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Hi, Clockwork Kobold. Let me help clear some things up.
Apparently I feel the need to write on a five year old forum post...
It's usually advised that you try to avoid necroing such an old thread. Many FAQs, errata, new rules, and new books have been released in the last 4 years that might make an old discussion irrelevant, plus you're skipping over valuable commentary that's taken place since.
I'd suggest making your own thread going forward, and if you need to, just link past discussions like this. I can guarantee that anything you're bringing up from 4 years ago has been discussed since.
I haven't found anything in the rules saying you can only cast one spell a turn. Yes it takes a standard action to cast a spell but so does making a basic melee or ranged attack.
The difference being that making more than one attack during a round is covered under the full round Full Attack Action. Many things take a Standard Action, such as First Aid, Grapple checks, Aid Another, casting a single spell, and making a single attack. Just because one of these can be performed more than once during a round does not mean they all can be.
In short, you need rules that state you can do something, not rules that state you can't.
ranged touch attacks are part of casting the spell and are not seperate actions. So according to this, yes, you can use snap shot or rapid shot with ranged touch attacks.
I am unaware of any ability to "hold the charge" on a ranged touch spell. Do you know of any way you can do this? Otherwise your spell will have been done and cast from your turn and there'd be nothing left to threaten with using Snap Shot.
if you're going to apply all the penalties of a ranged attack to a ranged touch spell and treat it as a ranged weapon then you better be willing to grant all the benefits.
In the sense of numerical bonuses and penalties to attack rolls, yes. In the sense of other rules elements, such as full attacking or Rapid Shot, you would be incorrect.
You guys...
Not all of us are male.
I say if you are going to make the best of that rule and make a ranged touch attack happy caster, go for it!
The spell casters in your Home Games will be thrilled to hear that.
In summary according to the RAW, yes ranged touch attacks require precise shot
Incorrect. No ranged attack requires Precise Shot. It just mitigates the -4 penalty. Keep in mind that, as monsters increase in CR, they typically reduce in Touch AC, so hitting that Colossal-sized Red Dragon isn't actually all that difficult, including the -4.
I hope that all helped!!
It is messed up but since attack and casting are one and the same for casting ranged touch attacks there is no reason you can't use them in a full attack action or with snap shot.
Actually it is because the touch attacks are part of the casting that you can't use them as part of a full attack action. Casting Scorching Ray, for example, is a standard action. The ranged touch attacks are all made instantaneously and simultaneously during that standard action and then the spell is over. The whole thing takes one standard action. (Or a swift action if you are using Quicken Spell.)
I'm finding it hard to follow your reasoning, so I'd like to move from the abstract to a concrete example. Please detail a round where your hypothetical caster casts Scorching Ray using Rapid Shot and Shap Shot. Please make sure to list the action type for each step: full-round action, standard action, move action, swift action, immediate action, or free action.
I think he's getting things backwards. He's saying that making a ranged touch attack comes with a free spell to obtain it. Instead of a spell giving a free ranged touch attacks.
The thing is Clockwork Kobold, *there is a difference between making the ranged touch attack itself and the casting of the spell.* Casting the spell is a standard action that gives free ranged touch attacks if the spell says it gets ranged touch attacks. Using the attack action to make an attack with a weapon is a standard action. Using the full-attack action to make a number of attacks with weapons that your BAB grants you is a full attack action. But just because the effects of a spell count as a weapon doesn't mean you can full attack with it. The full attack doesn't let you cast a spell to "obtain" your weapons. Nor do you have a "spell weapon" available when you aren't casting the spell.
*Bolded the important part, you could skip the rest
Way to have some constructive feedback for a rules question. /sarcasm
You did not present a question, but a lot of wrong rules, but since you want something constructive, the rules only say touch attacks not ranged touched attacks can hold a charge.
The section is split up into touch spells in combat, and ranged touch spells in combat, so they have different rules.
There is also this:
Ranged Touch Spells in Combat: Some spells allow you to make a ranged touch attack as part of the casting of the spell. These attacks are made as part of the spell and do not require a separate action. Ranged touch attacks provoke an attack of opportunity, even if the spell that causes the attacks was cast defensively. Unless otherwise noted, ranged touch attacks cannot be held until a later turn.
As for why rapid shot not working, there is this:
Rapid Shot (Combat)
You can make an additional ranged attack.Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point-Blank Shot.
Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon, you can fire one additional time this round. All of your attack rolls take a –2 penalty when using Rapid Shot.
You are either doing a full round action(used to make full attacks), or standard action.
If you are using a spell as a standard action then it is not a full attack. That is why you can not use rapid shot when making one ranged attack no matter if it is from a spell or weapon such as a bow.
The rules do not allow you to declare a full round action for casting a spell that is listed as a standard action. You only get to use the action it says you can use, unless you have a rules exception to override it.
Also casting multiple spells per round give casters a supreme advantage. At higher levels they have enough spells to get away with this, and not care. That is why they are limited to 2 spells per round even with a quickened spell.
With 3 disintegrates and a caster pushing his DC's high enough that even bosses have to roll 15's or higher he can easily one-shot a boss. On the flip side a BBEG can kill most party members if his DC's are high enough.
Hitting touch AC is really easy. It is so easy many casters dont even both with precise shot. At the level you can cast disintegrate you have a BAB of at least 5. It is pretty easy to also have a dex of +5. With the -4 for firing into melee you are technically at +6, and you tend to only have to hit a touch AC of 13 or less. If you quicken true strike that first attack gets a +20 so you are at a +26. Going back to what I said about pushing DC's the chances are that you can force 2 failed saves.
That is 44d6 which is about 154 points of damage. Assuming the boss(CR 14, average 200 hit points) survives, he is going down when the party fighter/barbarian gets to him.
Switching this around if the CR 14 boss is a caster he is doing 60d6 for 210. Most level 11 characters are not sitting on 210 hit points. Kill the cleric/healer first.
Then kill the other caster. If he has mirror image up. Quicken dispel magic, and then full attack with disintegrate.
But anyway to get things back on the topic of the actual rules this is not allowed. Is there anything else that needs to be addressed.
I think you misread what I said. A ranged touch attack is part of the spell. I never said anything different. My point is that you can not do a standard action, and a full round action at the same time. You have to do one or the other.
If we are clear on this point let me know. Then we can proceed.
If you disagree then let me know.
edit:As for rapid shot I quoted the feat for you. If an ability calls out a specific action then it requires that action type. There is no way around that.
Loading an arrow is a free action, those can be done at any time, even during a full attack.
Casting a spells (usually) a standard action, and it may give you free action attacks as part of the spell.
Casting a spell to create an attack and drawing an arrow to make an attack are not equal, one is a stand action and the other is a free action.
Loading a bolt or bullet is often a move action, thus you can't full attack with those as it takes a move action to reload, and you can't do those during a full attack.
If you get loading a bolt or bullet to a free action then you can reload during a full attack and make full attacks with them too, like the arrow.
Once you have cast a spell that give you attacks, you make those attacks as weapon attacks.
You can't deadly aim them because Deadly Aim doesn't work for ranged touch attacks, which these spell attacks are.
You can't full attack since you can't declare a full attack action and the cast a spell action in the same turn, just like the crossbow bolts and move actions.
You're wrong, we're showing you why, please learn from us rather than being stubborn. You have the wrong belief that since the ranged touch attacks from spells are treated as normal ranged attacks that it'll allow you to cast spells during a full attack as free actions. You're working backwards. You have no ranged attacks until you've cast a spell, which grants you the free attacks, and you can't make attacks with things you don't have.
Basically the rules outside of the feat section are the general rules, and feats allow you to break the rules, and so do spells, but they only break the rules in whatever way the tell you they do so. If rapid shot just said you get an extra attack with no regard for the action type then you could always get a free attack, but that is not how it is worded.