Question regarding Eidolon evolution points


Round 2: Summoner and Witch


The Eidolon's evolution points mentioned on the table aren't specific as to whether they are cumulative (26 total evolution points at level 20) or non-cumulative (gaining 26 new evolution points at level 20). Either interpretation seems problematic, as follows:

1)It is not possible to save evolution points from one level to the next, and no level gets you more than 2 "new" evolution points under the cumulative interpretation (except at 1st level). So, under the cumulative interpretation, it's not possible to have any evolutions requiring 3 or more points.

2) On the other hand, using the non-cumulative interpretation, one can access virtually all of the evolutions available - it's just a question of which evolutions one wants first. While I haven't had a chance to actually build an eidolon yet, I suspect that a 20th-level eidolon would steamroll any animal companion or mount and have a good chance against a lot of melee-oriented player characters.

So, which is it? Or is there another way to read the table?


I have only glanced at it, but it seems that they are cumulative (ie 26 total points at level 20). However, it does say that each time the summoner gains a level he can change the evolutions previously chosen which would allow them to get rid of cheaper abilities in exchange for the more expensive ones.

hope that helps


Okay. Thanks. I'll put together some numbers to look at based on that assumption.

Grand Lodge

It also says points cannot be saved from one level to the next, they must all be spent.

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

The points do not stack up.

At 1st level, you have a total of 3 EP
At 2nd level, you have a total of 4 EP (not 7).

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens Subscriber

But you can redistribute all of them at each new level, if I understand that correctly? So, they are locked for one level, but the eidolon could be completely rebuilt next level?

Stefan


Stebehil wrote:

But you can redistribute all of them at each new level, if I understand that correctly? So, they are locked for one level, but the eidolon could be completely rebuilt next level?

Stefan

I believe you are correct But I think the base Eidolon cannot be changed (for example if you choose serpentine you must always be serpentine). I couldn't find any text in the .pdf saying otherwise.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

The points do not stack up.

At 1st level, you have a total of 3 EP
At 2nd level, you have a total of 4 EP (not 7).

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Could you please explain, then, how do you get to use the 3 or 4 point evolutions? If they don't stack and can't be saved, I don't see a way to use the 3 or 4 point evolutions. First level would be your only chance to use a 3 point evolution and you could never use a 4 point evolution because you only gain 1 or 2 evolution points a level. Unless, as someone mentioned in another post, you can rebuild at each level. If you can, then, in my two cent opinion, it needs to come right out and say so and eliminate all of this ambiguity. This needs to be clarified much better. Thanks. (not angry or upset, just confused) :-)


morningsunshine wrote:
Could you please explain, then, how do you get to use the 3 or 4 point evolutions? If they don't stack and can't be saved, I don't see a way to use the 3 or 4 point evolutions. First level would be your only chance to use a 3 point evolution and you could never use a 4 point evolution because you only gain 1 or 2 evolution points a level. Unless, as someone mentioned in another post, you can rebuild at each level. If you can, then, in my two cent opinion, it needs to come right out and say so and eliminate all of this ambiguity. This needs to be clarified much better. Thanks. (not angry or upset, just confused) :-)

It does say so, and I believe it says so at more than one place. The second sentence in the eidolon section states that you can change them whenever you gain a new level (same applies to the Aspect ability if you make use of it).


It does say so, and I believe it says so at more than one place. The second sentence in the eidolon section states that you can change them whenever you gain a new level (same applies to the Aspect ability if you make use of it).

Duhhhhh......boy did I fail my perception check!! I guess I just needed to step away from the pdf for awhile because I kept missing that. If it would have had teeth, I would have some serious bites right now!! Just like being in the grocery store and can't see what you want on the shelf....someone else has to point it out!! I had been reading and rereading and playing around with making a character and just couldn't "see" it anymore. Thanks so much!!

Dark Archive

thelemonache wrote:
Stebehil wrote:

But you can redistribute all of them at each new level, if I understand that correctly? So, they are locked for one level, but the eidolon could be completely rebuilt next level?

Stefan

I believe you are correct But I think the base Eidolon cannot be changed (for example if you choose serpentine you must always be serpentine). I couldn't find any text in the .pdf saying otherwise.

Huh. Actually, I was assuming this could change every time you respent your points. it doesn't really make much sense for you to add/remove appendages and not be able to change the base form.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

On page 6 it explains that the value is the total and that you can change the thing on leveling.

Evolution Pool: The value given in this column is the total number of points in the eidolon’s evolution pool. Points from this pool can be spent on a wide variety of modifications and upgrades that add new
abilities, attacks, and powers to the eidolon.
Whenever the summoner gains a level, the number in this pool increases and the summoner can spend these points to change the abilities of the eidolon. These choices are not set. The summoner can change them whenever he gains a level (and through the transmogrify spell).


Is it just me, or would a baby Protean be perfect ;)


Draeke Raefel wrote:
thelemonache wrote:
Stebehil wrote:

But you can redistribute all of them at each new level, if I understand that correctly? So, they are locked for one level, but the eidolon could be completely rebuilt next level?

Stefan

I believe you are correct But I think the base Eidolon cannot be changed (for example if you choose serpentine you must always be serpentine). I couldn't find any text in the .pdf saying otherwise.
Huh. Actually, I was assuming this could change every time you respent your points. it doesn't really make much sense for you to add/remove appendages and not be able to change the base form.

hehe well magic isn't supposed to make sense, but unless someone can find specific text saying that you can change the base eidolon when you level (and not just the evolution points), then you cannot. I hope that someone proves this otherwise because i'd love the added flexibility of changing your base eidolon, especially since some evolutions are base restricted.

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

Evolution points can be respent every time the summoner gains a level.

Base form cannot be changed. Once chosen, it is set.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing


Will there be a feat that allows a Summoner to use extra EP Jason?

Dark Archive

Berselius wrote:
Will there be a feat that allows a Summoner to use extra EP Jason?

Wow, I hope not.


I can see where you wouldn't want over powering of the Eidolon. Perhaps only two feats then? Maybe something like this could work:

Improved Eidolon
Your Eidolon is more powerful than normal.
Prerequisite: 6th-level summoner.
Benefit: Your Eidolon’s evolution pool is increased by 2 points. You may not gain this feat multiple times.

Greater Eidolon
Your Eidolon is much more powerful than normal.
Prerequisite: Improved Eidolon, 12th-level summoner.
Benefit: Your Eidolon’s evolution pool increases by 4. This bonus overwrites the bonus to your Eidolon's evolution pool from the Improved Eidolon feat. You may not gain this feat multiple times.


I agree with Draeke. I think 90%+ of Summoners would take those feats if they were available, since they're both a significant power boost to the Eidolon.

Scarab Sages

Berselius wrote:
I can see where you wouldn't want over powering of the Eidolon.

Howabout a Feat where the Eidolon has an alternate build (EP wise)you can summon them as? Then it's not more powerful, but games with slow advancement does see a Summoner with a one trick pony that never applies.

Dark Archive

Berselius wrote:

I can see where you wouldn't want over powering of the Eidolon. Perhaps only two feats then? Maybe something like this could work:

Improved Eidolon
Your Eidolon is more powerful than normal.
Prerequisite: 6th-level summoner.
Benefit: Your Eidolon’s evolution pool is increased by 2 points. You may not gain this feat multiple times.

Greater Eidolon
Your Eidolon is much more powerful than normal.
Prerequisite: Improved Eidolon, 12th-level summoner.
Benefit: Your Eidolon’s evolution pool increases by 4. This bonus overwrites the bonus to your Eidolon's evolution pool from the Improved Eidolon feat. You may not gain this feat multiple times.

I guess my problem is, if you are going to cheese it, at 12th level 4 points potentially gives you 4 additional secondary attacks. While they only do 1d4, the Energy attacks evolution gives you an additional + 1d6 energy damage. All secondary attacks are only at -2 at this point. Here is an example lvl 12 eidolon with your second feat

Tentaculous Standard:
Evolutions:
Base Form: Quadraped - Bite attack 40ft move

2x claws ( front set, and back set of legs ) 2 points
Pounce 1point
Energy Attacks 2 points
11x Tentacle 11 point

With the feat:
15x Tentacle

* Note I didn't spend any of the ability increase points

Charge enemy then roll dice:
All attacks get +4 from str and +2 from charge for attack
att/dam
Bite +17/ 1d6 + 1d6 + 4
4x claws +15/ 1d4 + 1d6 + 2 ( claws are listed as secondary attacks )
15x Tentacles +15/1d4 + 1d6 + 2 ( tentacles are secondary attacks )

The whole point is the system can be broken and giving people more points to help break the system isn't a good thing. I would recommend limiting the number of secondary/primary natural attacks a creature can obtain, or putting a limit on tentacle specifically as it is the only additional attack that doesn't require the purchase of another body part( tail or limbs ). i guess that isn't true. Nothing in the rules limits bit or gore attacks...

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

I agree on the feats to improve Evolution points being a bit too powerful, the eidolons seem right on in their current handling of abilities vs points setup, except tentacles as you've noted, perhaps limiting the number of tentacles to 1 per 2HD or something.

A feat that I thought would be cool though is the ability to have 2 eidolons which pulled from the same pool of points. The ability increases would all be divided amongst the two (1 for each, or 2 for one) and each would be a bit weaker than 1 primary eidolon, but having 2 could be advantageous for other reasons (flanking, aid another, etc). Maybe too powerful, but its something I think would be cool to consider if it could be properly presented.

Dark Archive

riatin wrote:
... but having 2 could be advantageous for other reasons (flanking, aid another, etc)....

That's what you get your extra uses of Summon Monster for :)

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Draeke Raefel wrote:
riatin wrote:
... but having 2 could be advantageous for other reasons (flanking, aid another, etc)....
That's what you get your extra uses of Summon Monster for :)

Certainly true, but I was considering the summoner that has 2 hellhounds, or a flying monkey and an Acid Spider or something. Sometimes its just hard to go with just 1 maybe, lol.

Dark Archive

riatin wrote:
Draeke Raefel wrote:
riatin wrote:
... but having 2 could be advantageous for other reasons (flanking, aid another, etc)....
That's what you get your extra uses of Summon Monster for :)
Certainly true, but I was considering the summoner that has 2 hellhounds, or a flying monkey and an Acid Spider or something. Sometimes its just hard to go with just 1 maybe, lol.

Lol


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I don't like that the base forms can't be changed. It really doesn't make any sense, given that you can change how many arms and legs it has, give it wings or take it away, etc.

I would, however, change it so that you can only change the base form when you gain a level, not with the spell. So, the spell at higher level changes your evolution points, but not the base form. The base could only be changed at level up.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

mdt wrote:

I don't like that the base forms can't be changed. It really doesn't make any sense, given that you can change how many arms and legs it has, give it wings or take it away, etc.

I would, however, change it so that you can only change the base form when you gain a level, not with the spell. So, the spell at higher level changes your evolution points, but not the base form. The base could only be changed at level up.

I think the main reason for this would be to keep the stats in a standard progression as it goes up in level making the reshaping at each level just a little less complex, but I agree that the total malleability of the eidolon in all other aspects seems like you could change the base form just as easily. Pretty easy house rule if you like it that way.

Dark Archive

mdt wrote:

I don't like that the base forms can't be changed. It really doesn't make any sense, given that you can change how many arms and legs it has, give it wings or take it away, etc.

I would, however, change it so that you can only change the base form when you gain a level, not with the spell. So, the spell at higher level changes your evolution points, but not the base form. The base could only be changed at level up.

What happens at level 20?


mdt wrote:

I don't like that the base forms can't be changed. It really doesn't make any sense, given that you can change how many arms and legs it has, give it wings or take it away, etc.

I would, however, change it so that you can only change the base form when you gain a level, not with the spell. So, the spell at higher level changes your evolution points, but not the base form. The base could only be changed at level up.

Agreed.

The only issue I can see against this is that the eidolon could be seen as that PCs only. He isn't summoning another but morphing the eidolon that he formed a pact with at level one and that base shape is fixed.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Draeke Raefel wrote:
What happens at level 20?

Greater Transmogrify! 6th level Summoner spell, 1 hour cast time or something.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Draeke Raefel wrote:
mdt wrote:

I don't like that the base forms can't be changed. It really doesn't make any sense, given that you can change how many arms and legs it has, give it wings or take it away, etc.

I would, however, change it so that you can only change the base form when you gain a level, not with the spell. So, the spell at higher level changes your evolution points, but not the base form. The base could only be changed at level up.

What happens at level 20?

Uhm, you gain the benefits of level 20 and can change the base form if you want (as well as redoing your evolution points if you want)?

I'm not sure what this question is supposed to signify?

If you mean 'Wouldn't you be stuck then with one form of your eidelon?', then no, you'd be able to change him again at 21, and 22, and so on. Of course, we'll need Epic level rules before that can happen, but the same is true of every class.


Draeke Raefel wrote:


What happens at level 20?

You go home and a nice cup of tea :)

Dark Archive

riatin wrote:
Draeke Raefel wrote:
What happens at level 20?
Greater Transmogrify! 6th level Summoner spell, 1 hour cast time or something.

I would think Transmogrify would have at least a 1 hour cast time to begin with :)


I would prefer allowing the summoner to change base forms at each level up as well. In fact, reading the text for the summoner, there is nothing that says that the base form cannot be changed, and there is text that indicates it can be changed.

Quote:

The eidolon takes a form shaped by the summoner’s desires. The eidolon’s Hit Dice, saving throws, skills, feats, and abilities are tied to the summoner’s class level and increase as the summoner gains levels. In addition, each eidolon receives a pool of evolution points, based on the summoner’s class level, that can be used to give the eidolon different abilities and powers. Whenever the summoner gains a level, he must decide how these points are spent, and they are set until he gains another level of summoner.

The eidolon’s physical appearance is up to the summoner, but it always
appears as some sort of fantastical creature.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Spacelard wrote:
mdt wrote:

I don't like that the base forms can't be changed. It really doesn't make any sense, given that you can change how many arms and legs it has, give it wings or take it away, etc.

I would, however, change it so that you can only change the base form when you gain a level, not with the spell. So, the spell at higher level changes your evolution points, but not the base form. The base could only be changed at level up.

Agreed.

The only issue I can see against this is that the eidolon could be seen as that PCs only. He isn't summoning another but morphing the eidolon that he formed a pact with at level one and that base shape is fixed.

Yeah, I'm assuming the way the class is written that your eidelon is very malleable, nearly a protoform creature that assumes any physical form it needs to manifest on the physical realm.


mdt wrote:

Yeah, I'm assuming the way the class is written that your eidelon is very malleable, nearly a protoform creature that assumes any physical form it needs to manifest on the physical realm.

I want to build a Shoggoth...

Dark Archive

mdt wrote:
Draeke Raefel wrote:
mdt wrote:

I don't like that the base forms can't be changed. It really doesn't make any sense, given that you can change how many arms and legs it has, give it wings or take it away, etc.

I would, however, change it so that you can only change the base form when you gain a level, not with the spell. So, the spell at higher level changes your evolution points, but not the base form. The base could only be changed at level up.

What happens at level 20?

Uhm, you gain the benefits of level 20 and can change the base form if you want (as well as redoing your evolution points if you want)?

I'm not sure what this question is supposed to signify?

If you mean 'Wouldn't you be stuck then with one form of your eidelon?', then no, you'd be able to change him again at 21, and 22, and so on. Of course, we'll need Epic level rules before that can happen, but the same is true of every class.

Umm... I don't think any solution that depends on epic levels is universally useful. That requires A. epic rules, and B. A GM who wants to use them.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Draeke Raefel wrote:


Umm... I don't think any solution that depends on epic levels is universally useful. That requires A. epic rules, and B. A GM who wants to use them.

I fail to see how that is a valid argument against letting them change the base form at level up though. Your arguments, A & B, apply to each and every class equally. What happens to a sorcerer after level 20? What happens to a barbarian? What happens to a sorcerer/ranger/arcane archer?


I'm opposed to changing the base form at every level. There's so little (base form, skills, feats and ability increases) that's static about the eidolon considering it's still the same creature, just with different forms.


I'd like to see the ability to gain a second or third eidalon as you level, to give you one of each base (only one could be summoned at a time of course)

Community / Forums / Archive / Pathfinder / Playtests & Prerelease Discussions / Advanced Player's Guide Playtest / Round 2: Summoner and Witch / Question regarding Eidolon evolution points All Messageboards
Recent threads in Round 2: Summoner and Witch