Summoner and Witch Playtest


Round 2: Summoner and Witch

151 to 191 of 191 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>
Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Epic Meepo wrote:
LazarX wrote:
I'm long of the opinion that the Eidolon has to be handled strictly as any other summon. NO ITEMS WHATSOEVER.
Every other summoned creature can pick up items and use them just fine. A 20th-level conjurer, for example, could permanently summon an astral deva and could deck it out in as many magic items as it can carry, up to and including every item slot a PC has. Why should an eidolon be any different?

Ultra high level play is in a field of it's own. There's a lot of things I'd allow at campaign ending level because it's supposed to be capstone.

But in the interims.. it just stinks of cheese monkeyism. I imagine if you folks were writing for Pokeman, Pikachu would be wearing kevlar and combat boots and trading in his lightning attacks for an AK-47.


LazarX wrote:

Ultra high level play is in a field of it's own. There's a lot of things I'd allow at campaign ending level because it's supposed to be capstone.

But in the interims.. it just stinks of cheese monkeyism. I imagine if you folks were writing for Pokeman, Pikachu would be wearing kevlar and combat boots and trading in his lightning attacks for an AK-47.

You mean he hasn't yet? Damn, I lost that bet.


LazarX wrote:
Epic Meepo wrote:
LazarX wrote:
I'm long of the opinion that the Eidolon has to be handled strictly as any other summon. NO ITEMS WHATSOEVER.
Every other summoned creature can pick up items and use them just fine. A 20th-level conjurer, for example, could permanently summon an astral deva and could deck it out in as many magic items as it can carry, up to and including every item slot a PC has. Why should an eidolon be any different?

Ultra high level play is in a field of it's own. There's a lot of things I'd allow at campaign ending level because it's supposed to be capstone.

But in the interims.. it just stinks of cheese monkeyism.

Nah it's just smart.

It's not cheese in that it's something a reasonable character would do inside the game, rather than exploiting a rules loophole outside of character.

And it can be done much earlier via any of the calling spells (planar ally, etc).

Really the eidolon should be balanced as a normal creature rather than making specific restrictions for it to be brought into line.

Remove the evolutions that mimic feats. This includes the weapon proficiency, armor profs, natural armor boosts and natural weapon boosts. They get feats, let them spend it on them.

As to the natural armor progression, decide if they need to be faster than a druid's animal companion or not. But don't make up specific rules for eidolons when its not needed. It attacks the game to do that.. and goes against a design goal that 3rd edition started (and 4th sacrificed entirely).

-James


Hey Guys,

Just had a quick question, we've got a game starting up soon with a bunch of the Playtest classes being used. The Summoner player and I were musing over whether the Eidolon got Martial Weapon Proficiency automatically from being an outsider or not, wondering if this had already been cleared up or was it still up in the air.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
MaverickWolf wrote:
Lazaro wrote:
At one point she did create a small but effective army when she and the partys monk were the last characters standing in the Skinsaw Murders.

I had no problem with it. Actually found it quite amusing! As did the players. The only problem is, on her part, is that she rarely if ever thinks of herself as a caster (thinks that a d8 hit die and 3/4 attack makes a "tank") and was quickly overwelmed with looking up stats for her wolverine army.

Dark Archive

Metal_Storm wrote:

Hey Guys,

Just had a quick question, we've got a game starting up soon with a bunch of the Playtest classes being used. The Summoner player and I were musing over whether the Eidolon got Martial Weapon Proficiency automatically from being an outsider or not, wondering if this had already been cleared up or was it still up in the air.

Well, no. You'd think they might because of they type but its a pretty sure guess that they wouldn't have Evolutions for proficiencies if the Eidolons came with it.

Liberty's Edge

I, like some, haven't had a chance to play the summoner yet but as a GM I am incredibly intimidated by this class. This class is almost everything horrible about a druid save with the druid one can chose NOT to be horrible while a summoner kind of has to.

First, before I get ahead of myself, perhaps I misread the eidolon part a bit, but it looks like augment summoning works with all the summoned creature even the eidolon. So, unless I read it wrong, a first level summoner could have a 20 strength and 18 constitution "familiar" who can be enlarged or made invisible thanks to share spell. Granted that first level summoner is really only a back-up character at that point because both feats went to the eidolon... wel, the eidolon and all other summoned creatures. But after first level the summoner can devote all their feats to archery or some other combat shtick... like mounted combat.

Now to the point, before the Summoner I came to the realization that summoning characters, specifically summoning druids, can and usually do usurp the role of other characters at the table. As a GM, I hate seeing this. I want everyone at the table to feel like part of the party. I understand that a player has to be allowed to do what they want with their character, so one has to occasionally put up with the summoning druid filling the battlemap with augmented hippogriffs and just choking-off the pace and entertainment value of the combat for everyone at the table. But Summoner is a class that really can't do anything BUT make the game less fun for other players. 1) The eiodolon is a highly capable marshal being who can fill the role of any fighter or barbarian for the campaign, especially if my interpretation of augment summoning's applicability is correct. Thus my martial players have to sort of sit back and see in essence half a character fill the niche of their whole character in combat. 2) There is a whole other character to work with that doesn't have to worry about its martial responsibilities to the party. So the player can decide to devote all the character's resources to social aspects in a game with good RP OR the character can become a second martial character and just utterly dominate that arena. Like the druid, cleric and rogue the Summoner's BAB isn't horrible so it can do some combat stuff. A mounted combat summoner, which is admittedly cool, is also admittedly very powerful. Lastly, there is a lot of flexibility because there are a lot of dump stats or at least no stats that need to be "through the roof" (most of the spells are buff spells and thus don't rely on baddies failing saves and the spell list only goes up to 6th level so you need only a 16 to cast even the highest level spells). This means that the summoner character can really, stat-wise, be a jack-of-all trades. If you look at all of the roles this class can fill, it isn't hard to imagine a table where one player's turn and the results thereof dominate the game and push the other players out of the party.

I guess for a concluding point to my argument. I would ask all the GM's out there to think about what a game would be like with a party full of summoners as written. Sure you need a healer in there, but... I bet the party would get buy pretty well, so long as the GM didn't constantly throw adversaries with circle of protections around them. I think that is the test of any given character class. If a party full of that class would basically be unstoppable at the normal CR then... the character class is out of balance.

My suggestions: I find the summoner absolutely awesome and I want to play one so very badly, but that is because I have been waiting for a pet focused class since I was a kid. The 3.5 Beastmaster came very close to offering this, in my opinion, but it was not quite right. The summoner brings the flexibility that the Beastmaster just didn't have and needed - but it does so with too much gusto. And that's just it, there is just too much in this class. I think the Summoner could easily be toned down and balanced with some careful and liberal grooming. For instance, one could just admit that the summoner is in the end a martial class and heavily restrict spell casting like the ranger and paladin are restricted. Or one could do away with most of the buffs that a summoner and eiodolon gain as they advance in levels and just let the increase in the eidolon's power be the treat a player gets for leveling. My thoughts.

Anyhow, thanks for the time and sorry if you feel my points are way off.


lrichter wrote:
First, before I get ahead of myself, perhaps I misread the eidolon part a bit, but it looks like augment summoning works with all the summoned creature even the eidolon.

No. Augment Summoning (and other feats like it) only work on creatures summoned with a spell. The Eidolon is summoned via a Supernatural Ability, which isn't even remotely like a spell. Augment Summoning, Beckon the Frozen, and so on do not apply to the Eidolon. They do apply to the summon monster SLA, though.


lrichter wrote:


First, before I get ahead of myself, perhaps I misread the eidolon part a bit, but it looks like augment summoning works with all the summoned creature even the eidolon.

It does not work with the Eidolon, but does work with the summons.

Quote:
1) The eiodolon is a highly capable marshal being who can fill the role of any fighter or barbarian for the campaign, especially if my interpretation of augment summoning's applicability is correct.

The Eidolon can actually do the melee thing without augment summon, but I don't why that is a problem since it is the focal point of the class, and the PC(summoner) is designed to take a back seat to it.

Quote:
I guess for a concluding point to my argument. I would ask all the GM's out there to think about what a game would be like with a party full of summoners as written

I don't think the summoner can get by without a healer. All you would have to do is focus on the summoner instead of the Eidolon. Instead of having one powerful opponent the I would use several opponents. Their effectiveness would also depend on how the various Eidolons were built. If I did run a party of summoners one party member should make at least one of them into a scout. Having 4 monsters that just bash things creates a weakness in the party.


True enough.A summoner/witch party,with the witch focused on healing hexes,would not have that weakness.

Liberty's Edge

Zurai wrote:
lrichter wrote:
First, before I get ahead of myself, perhaps I misread the eidolon part a bit, but it looks like augment summoning works with all the summoned creature even the eidolon.
No. Augment Summoning (and other feats like it) only work on creatures summoned with a spell. The Eidolon is summoned via a Supernatural Ability, which isn't even remotely like a spell. Augment Summoning, Beckon the Frozen, and so on do not apply to the Eidolon. They do apply to the summon monster SLA, though.

Can't believe I missed that... nevertheless, I think my points are still valid.

Thanks

Liberty's Edge

"The Eidolon can actually do the melee thing without augment summon, but I don't why that is a problem since it is the focal point of the class, and the PC(summoner) is designed to take a back seat to it."

The summoner doesn't have to take a back seat because they have an OK BAB and HP's and they can simply devote their feats to other martial things while still summoning in more creatures. AND they can buff like mad - HASTE at 4th level.

"I don't think the summoner can get by without a healer. All you would have to do is focus on the summoner instead of the Eidolon. Instead of having one powerful opponent the I would use several opponents. Their effectiveness would also depend on how the various Eidolons were built. If I did run a party of summoners one party member should make at least one of them into a scout. Having 4 monsters that just bash things creates a weakness in the party."

This is mostly true. But a summoner worth his salt will summon in large, potentially useless creatures to provide cover and fill up the battle map like a wall. The druid summoning hordes of hippogriff's isn't killing the baddie(s) with them but isolating the baddie(s) with them. In a group of summoners, in round one, two summoners will call in 1d3 celestial horses a piece with summon monster III to clog up the battlemap and pen in the baddie(s) and the another two summoners will delay and cast haste on all the creatures including the horses. That's round one. Round two the other two summoners summon in 1d3 celestial horses, and the previous two start opening up on the baddies with ranged attacks.

As for healing... it is a problem but at 9th or 11th level the party can start summoning creatures that can heal them, Bralani Azata. At 9th level they get one with 2 cure serious wounds... not great. But at 11th they each can summon d3 of these things. Still not great but it is not bad. I guess ideally the above party would have a fifth member - a turning cleric (or perhaps a couple Leadership feats that give you clerics). The cleric could use their positive energy burst to selectively and continually heal the eidolon's and even the summoned in distractions...

As a GM I think you have to anticipate the race to the bottom.


lrichter wrote:


The summoner doesn't have to take a back seat because they have an OK BAB and HP's and they can simply devote their feats to other martial things while still summoning in more creatures. AND they can buff like mad - HASTE at 4th level.

If the summoner uses feats to fight he is not using them to increase spellcasting. That actually makes the group weaker since it leads to another martial type when the Eidolons are already filling that role.

Quote:


This is mostly true. But a summoner worth his salt will summon in large, potentially useless creatures to provide cover and fill up the battle map like a wall. The druid summoning hordes of hippogriff's isn't killing the baddie(s) with them but isolating the baddie(s) with them. In a group of summoners, in round one, two summoners will call in 1d3 celestial horses a piece with summon monster III to clog up the battlemap and pen in the baddie(s) and the another two summoners will delay and cast haste on all the creatures including the horses. That's round one. Round two the other two summoners summon in 1d3 celestial horses, and the previous two start opening up on the baddies with ranged attacks.

You are assuming no baddies have ranged attacks or spellcasters that ignore the summons.

Quote:


As for healing... it is a problem but at 9th or 11th level the party can start summoning creatures that can heal them, Bralani Azata. At 9th level they get one with 2 cure serious wounds... not great. But at 11th they each can summon d3 of these things. Still not great but it is not bad. I guess ideally the above party would have a fifth member - a turning cleric (or perhaps a couple Leadership feats that give you clerics)....

I would not allow more than one person in my group to take leadership especially with the summoner. They already have to control the summoner, the eidolon, and any summons.

In short I think its easier to plan for a party of all one type, depending on level of course.


Okay it does look that third time's the charm. Playtest Witch Level 1.

I've played the Witch through three different scenarios, and evidently the witch's strengths are circumstantial at best.

The spell list is focused towards mind affecting and when I played a mod that was encounter after encounter of creatures immune to such spells I was highly ineffective.

Swarm, Construct, Undead.

My best ability was me behind the fighter using the ward hex everytime he got hit by the construct or undead. Swarm we ran away from because no one had AoE spells thinking a Diminutive swarm would attack us at 1st level.

The second mod I had more versatility to use spells I had recently aquired but still turned out to fairly ineffective when we fought more undead as the mod progressed and was again forced to play the rebuff role.

So when I played this third mod, I was fully capable to utilize the effectiveness of my Enchantments due to fighting creatures vulnerable to Mind Affecting spells.

Granted people can tell me that the witch has the option to prepare other spells like Summon Monsters, Grease, Cause Fear, Burning Hands, etc etc...but you truly are not playing a witch in my opinion if you don't have atleast one enchantment spell prepared with the class because all witches are first seen as this before anything else.

If you wanted to use those other spells you are better off as a wizard or sorcerer.

So final conclusion is that the witch is a fun class when it works, but when you are up against things that are highly resistant or outright immune to what you can do, it is frustrating.

Hexes ran through the same problems people kept debating, too many actions against the witch for the possibility of her hex succeeding.

Roleplay for the witch is ultimately limitless however, and I made a great diplomat with the Charm Hex.


my problem with ward, is it is only ever usefull if an attack hits your previous ac or 1 higher, as once your hit (your ac +2) its spent. meaning that if they roll below your previous ac it never helped to begin with. So your spending your standard action to buff someone, who more often then not, does not use it. Same goes with resistances though so its more likely to be used, but at the same time with only that +2 its generally not being used or is just wasted, and you can only have 1 active at a time. So if you take this at lvl 1, your only hex can only be used when its wasted, and most the time its just being wasted.


Kraven Evilfart wrote:
my problem with ward, is it is only ever usefull if an attack hits your previous ac or 1 higher, as once your hit (your ac +2) its spent. meaning that if they roll below your previous ac it never helped to begin with. So your spending your standard action to buff someone, who more often then not, does not use it. Same goes with resistances though so its more likely to be used, but at the same time with only that +2 its generally not being used or is just wasted, and you can only have 1 active at a time. So if you take this at lvl 1, your only hex can only be used when its wasted, and most the time its just being wasted.

It worked more times than failed in my experience.

I gave it to the fighters who made sure their AC was built as high as possible and always loved an Extra +2 deflection.

The saves also ensured those moments where a +1 or +2 were needed just to succeed.

So in my experience it was for the best in keeping my side of the fight as protected as possible.

The two complaints I have with the Witch are the Hexes and the Spell List.

Hexes because of what people have already said.
Standard Action, Provokes AoO, The Most Useful Ones are Touch based, aside from Evil Eye, which means you have to enter melee. The Witch doesn't even have armor proficiency to make wading into melee advantageous for using the hexes like slumber and misfortune. Not to mention the enemy still gets a save to neglect the hex. Which I find unfair because the bloodline sorcerers and the specialist wizard both get abilities against opponents that are automatic and require only a successful touch attack. Hell Even Clerics get touch attacks with no save to negate nor do they provoke AoO's.

The Spell list is like I said above, depends on the circumstance. As levels get higher there will be more and more creatures that are immune to a lot of the Witch Spells.


Ok so a word of warning to anyone reading this. It almost entirely deals with AP #27 What Lies in Dust. If you are playing this, and do not want to know what is coming, you know what not to do

Spoiler:
So I was running What Lies in Dust AP #27. And In it there is this thing called the Devildrome. Where the party has to take on a conjurer and his lemures. And I thought to myself.. Hrm.. This is the perfect opportunity to try out the summoner!!! So, I kept the stats, and equip of the original baddy, but made him a summoner. Let me tell you was he ever a hit. The 8th lvl summoner I created, and his attendant Eidolon, plus the hordes of lemures he summoned were an absolute blast! He worked extremely well in the framework of the encounter. Better, even, than the conjurer would have worked. And it lead to a fantastic finish, when, after easily defeating the hordes of lemures, my party's champion fighter had to do single combat with the Eidolon I had created for the occasion. The battle lasted for a full 18 rounds! (unheard of in my games, when most combats are resolved in 3-10 rounds maximum) The Party's Main combatant, a Swordsage/Psychic warrior very nearly died a few times, which he loved, and the rest of the party was stretched to bursting trying to find ways to keep him alive, and to keep him from getting hit. They did finally take the Eidolon down, with a few good crits, and then took on the weakened summoner himself. I, for one, am a fan of the Summoner as is, and see no real balance problems. And 8th lvl summoner, by himself was a CR7. That was right as I saw it, and cannot wait to play one in the next game I am not DM'ing. Thank you Paizo, for this awesome new class


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I'm confused...

You had a Summoner NPC fight a party to a stand still for 18 rounds, alone, only using class abilities, and you think this is a good thing?

He is great for the BBEG at the bottom of a dungeon but I shudder to think of what a party with 3 summoners and a cleric would cut through.

Dark Archive

dulsin wrote:

I'm confused...

You had a Summoner NPC fight a party to a stand still for 18 rounds, alone, only using class abilities, and you think this is a good thing?

He is great for the BBEG at the bottom of a dungeon but I shudder to think of what a party with 3 summoners and a cleric would cut through.

Bah. You could say the same thing about a well made Druid, Cleric, or Conjurer. The game isn't balanced. Total obsession with balance leads to 4th edition. the Summoner is a Caster which is a plus and has action economy which is another plus. It can be killed, though, and not too difficultly. All it would have taken the party was one save or suck with a fort save preferably or possibly a reflex save and the encounter might have been over.


Yeah 8th level gives you 4th level spells at least.

Black tentacles stops half the fight right there, especially if centered on the Eidolon.

And if that doesn't work there's always Web.

Not to mention if you have electricity or sonic to damage those creatures, for nonresisted damage.

But dude 18 rounds good job!


Fafhrdnorseman wrote:

Ok so a word of warning to anyone reading this. It almost entirely deals with AP #27 What Lies in Dust. If you are playing this, and do not want to know what is coming, you know what not to do

** spoiler omitted **

So what average lvl was the party at?

The Exchange

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

There are so many threads on this; can't tell if this is the right place to put this but here is some feedback:

Used the Witch to add class levels to Undrella the Harpy in Legacy of Fire (I did this because we have a party of 6 and I'm finding that the PFRG characters are stronger than the old 3.5 characters so all CR's must be upgraded...). I gave her the Sleep, Charm and Ward hexes as a level 4 Witch on top of her base monster statistics (I wanted a fight against her to be a tough experience for the party if they took that route and this added flavor to the encounter). I am using a homemade version of the Harrow deck fate card system that was introduced in the CoCT campaign so one of my characters who had the Rabbit Prince card was "fate chosen" to be Undrella's favorite and she added her Ward Hex to him.

The Ward Hex is really good. However, I noticed issue with the other two. I think that the Charm Hex needs to be upgraded to minutes instead of rounds and the way it is written it seems to be too much weaker than a Charm spell. (example: if the one person that is affected is unfriendly and raised to indifferent, but still surrounded by friends that are unfriendly, it seems this is worthless because they will join their friends). I wanted to cast the charm spell but then the rest of the party would notice this and I figured a very unfavorable response would come from it because they were waffling between work with her vs. combat her. My intent was for Undrella to charm her favorite using the hex (while pawing over her favorite "rabbit price" PC) which I read as more subtle and definately more "new" than a spell but the duration was too short and weak for it to accomplish anything. As is she really didn't end up using any of her abilities to push them into the direction of helping her, I did that by roleplaying only and they were swayed by metagame information when they realized she had placed the ward on him. I only used her harpy song to bring them close enough to use her abilities...

Also, the sleep hex is a very flavorful item for the witch (like something from Mother Goose). It needs to also be upgraded to ten minutes per level IMO. This would be perhaps the witch's best offensive hex option but again it is sort of short lived as written.
There seems to be a void in the hexes and the spell list at low level (againt his was just level 4 witch) as there is really no option that can affect everyone in a group, so particularly if trying to work for a PC, this is a handicap that should be addressed IMO.

Overall, I think this really worked well as an NPC class and particularly in this encounter. However, I am seeing a real void in offensive versatility for the witch as a PC so I feel it would be quite weak compared to an equivalent Wizard or Cleric. I know that the hexes are the witches toys vs. feats but I think it wouldn't hurt to throw in some bonus feats to the build or perhaps a feat that can be taken to allow earlier access to the higher tier hexes or to improve the power of specific hexes. Another boon to this class would be to make some of the spells that are really in line with the flavor of the class to be accessed as lower level spells than a Sor/Wiz/bard would receive them.

I did also come across some questions that I think need to be clarified in the final text.

A.) I've posted this elsewhere but there is no information for starting gold for any of the six new classes. This needs to be addressed for someone to make a new witch by the book...

B.) As I read it, the Hexes are an "at will" special ability. However, there does not appear to be any text that specifically says this or tells how many uses the witch receives. The hexes are weak enough that they do not seem to be unbalancing as an "at will" the way they are printed but maybe if you make them stronger as suggested above you might want to limit them to witch level + int bonus times per day. It also would help to clarify what "type" of ability this is specifically (like supernatural, magical, etc.) to help tie this to the various spells that could be used to counter the hexes.

C.) The familiar specific spells really should have spell levels clarified with them. I was assuming that they are the same level as for a Wizard or cleric (shield of faith from her Owl familiar) but at higher levels this assumption might not be correct and sometimes spell level is variable by class.

D.) Just an added opinion - in line with the "mother goose" flavor - the witch [i[needs[/i] access to more polymorphing abilities earlier IMO.


For the Witch:

Has there been consideration on the possibility that the bonus spells from your familiar work in the same manner as a domain for clerics.

They get those spells known at the level and a slot that is capable of casting only that spell?


Skizzy wrote:

For the Witch:

Has there been consideration on the possibility that the bonus spells from your familiar work in the same manner as a domain for clerics.

They get those spells known at the level and a slot that is capable of casting only that spell?

I brought this upon another thread. I think it is a good Idea. Having even one extra spell you can cast (even every other level) is important, especially at low level and is ballanced, IMO, with the bonus spells cleric and wizard gets.

I think flavor-wise it enhances the bond between familiar and Witch from "wow, I can choose to memorize this extra spell every even level" to "WOW, I get this spell I can CAST for free every even level." It makes the selection of your familiar species that much more important as well.


What I think could work to also give the bond, between a Witch and its familiar, more of a feel would be to give the familiar a certain number of magical tricks that are based off of the number of spells the witch stores in their familiar.

For example:

A fifth level witch has a total of 30 spells stored in her familiar.

The familiar gets to choose three spells, or 10% of the total spells stored, that itself could cast as self only spells or area affect spells centered on the familiar's position. The familiar gets a number of slots equal to 1/4th the witch's slots in the current level being used. (IE 4 first level slots familiar gets one spell cast 1/day for first level)

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I'd like to know what languages are automatic for an eidolon to speak/understand. Also, what languages would be bonus.


Chris Ballard wrote:
I'd like to know what languages are automatic for an eidolon to speak/understand. Also, what languages would be bonus.

Jason has stated that the Eidolon knows the languages of its master.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Society Subscriber
MaverickWolf wrote:
Chris Ballard wrote:
I'd like to know what languages are automatic for an eidolon to speak/understand. Also, what languages would be bonus.
Jason has stated that the Eidolon knows the languages of its master.

OK thank you.

Liberty's Edge

MaverickWolf wrote:
Chris Ballard wrote:
I'd like to know what languages are automatic for an eidolon to speak/understand. Also, what languages would be bonus.
Jason has stated that the Eidolon knows the languages of its master.

This is a newb question. Do outsiders not have their own language? If so wouldn't Big E speak it?


Istheresomethingonmyface? wrote:
MaverickWolf wrote:
Chris Ballard wrote:
I'd like to know what languages are automatic for an eidolon to speak/understand. Also, what languages would be bonus.
Jason has stated that the Eidolon knows the languages of its master.
This is a newb question. Do outsiders not have their own language? If so wouldn't Big E speak it?

"Outsider" as a type doesn't have an associated language. The majority speak a language based on alignment like Celestial or Abyssal, or one based on an element like Ignan or Aquan natively. Since the Eidolon doesn't have any particular plane associated with it it's difficult to tell what languages it should be able to speak that way.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Rulebook Subscriber

Just a small play test note, so I didn't want to start a whole thread. In our mid level campaign (10-11ish) my barbarian has brought in a witch as a cohort for some play test fun. During her first fight she was in the tentacles of the Druid (wild shaped as a giant squid.) So two things came out of my experience, the first was given the extremely limited duration, I think it should be less restricting in the types of rolls it applies to. I think it should just be any d20 roll, as right now it excludes stuff like caster level checks, checks to overcome spell resistance rolls, concentration (now that it isn't a skill) etc.

In our case the druid cast dispel magic and rolled pitifully, so the DM ruled that rerolling that was in the spirit of the hex.

Our other finding was that cackle is too short a range.


I don't understand your first part of the message.

I presume you're talking about the Misfortune Hex that was used on the Druid you fought?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Rulebook Subscriber
Skizzy wrote:

I don't understand your first part of the message.

I presume you're talking about the Misfortune Hex that was used on the Druid you fought?

The druid was my ally and I placed the fortune hex on him.

I see the confusing, yes she was in the tentacles, but that was because we were assaulting an island, and the druid turned into a squid and carried the party in his tentacles, and was taking his turn to place us inside the window of the tower on the edge of the island we were attacking. The witch was one of the last to leave the druids tentacles, and so she gave the druid a fortune hex.

So when the druid cast a dispel magic on his turn, that is where our experience on the fortune hex kicked in.

Sovereign Court

Will the official book have more of a background on the planar connection between summoner & E?

As in how they first contact He/She /It?

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Does the Augment Summoning feat also provide its bonus to the eidolon?

Scarab Sages

Chris Ballard wrote:
Does the Augment Summoning feat also provide its bonus to the eidolon?

at this time till the revision comes out the answer is simply No

Dark Archive

Chris Ballard wrote:
Does the Augment Summoning feat also provide its bonus to the eidolon?

The eidolon isn't considered summoned, but rather called through the one minute ritual it takes to bring it to the world. Because of this Augment Summon doesn't work.


So, just my two cents, after running a Summoner and a Witch up against my party this Saturday:

Summoner
This class seems a bit strong. The Eidolon, despite having been made more for flavor than for power, was still quite a powerhouse, and was able to get 5 attacks, pounce, grab, and a bunch of other abilities that made it more than a match for several characters that were specialized combatants. The players ended up ignoring the critter entirely, and killed the Summoner... if they hadn't done that as quickly as they did, they probably would have died.

The additional summoning abilities, as well as the nice spell list for augmentation and battlefield control (black tentacles is quite nice) makes them, imo, a bit too strong. My personal suggestions would be to limit the number of extra attacks for the eidolon, bump up the level haste is gained, up the cost on a few of the better eidolon abilities, and call it a day.

Witch
This class wasn't nearly as impressive to me, and the since the witch got killed in the first few rounds, I can't say much about balance (though all the touch effects were somewhat off-putting for a primary caster with low defensive and offensive capabilities). What I did notice however was that the class felt a bit... confusing for me to put together and run. The various hexes, how they work together, specific rules, all of it kind of blurred together for me. Not that I couldn't have figured it out with a few hours of reading and playing around with numbers to make the best stuff... But I was pressed for time, and for those GM's and players wanting something that can be learned and used in a reasonable amount of time (probably a fair share of those playing) I felt that it was just a bit poorly laid out for me to grasp.

A bit of streamlining would be nice, and this goes for the eidolon abilities as well.

--

Anyway, just a brief comment from my personal experiences. Hopefully it will be helpful.

Grand Lodge

We've only played a bit with the Witch (Doctor) so far, from 1st to 2nd level, and he seems a little more deficient in combat, but much more PROficient in non-combat situations. In terms of pure flavor, and role-playing opportunities, I would say that I like this class a lot. The player has put some concern on some relatively useless Cantrips though... I don't see the problem, myself... Cantrips are not supposed to be that useful in combat anyway.

Overall, I think that I like this class, and it seems to become rather scary at higher levels.


Did I miss any new rules releases by chance? I thought we were getting a new set of playtest rules sometime in January but I have been unable to find them around here.


My group of players

7th level Fighter, 2 Handed Spec
7th level Rouge, Poison Use Master, Dual Wield.
7th level Cleric, Healing Deity
7th level Sorcerer, Fire Bloodline
7th level Wizard, Arcane Specialization

This experienced group fought a 9th level Summoner and a small (4-6th level)
henchmen group. This was nearly a party wipe, mostly because of the Eidolon and some poor rolls. I ran the combat again to see if the rolls could be different. In all but one case the party was almost wiped out to a man. The Summoner is a very effective class, now the party is going to roll up at least one if not more. We also have a witch in the group now, but she has only adventured for half a level.

151 to 191 of 191 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Archive / Pathfinder / Playtests & Prerelease Discussions / Advanced Player's Guide Playtest / Round 2: Summoner and Witch / Summoner and Witch Playtest All Messageboards
Recent threads in Round 2: Summoner and Witch