Temporal Bracers
Aura strong transmutation; CL 17th
Slot hands; Price 165,240 gp; Weight 1 lb.
Description
You may activate these gem-studded bracers as a move action, pulling your “future self” to the past for one round. Your future self appears in a square adjacent to you, acts as your turn ends, and may take one full-round's worth of actions. At the start of your next turn both incarnations, and any items carried by them, disappear for one round. At the start of your third turn, you reappear in the square where your future self was last standing, appearing in the nearest adjacent square if that one is occupied.
Both incarnations are subject to damage and effects, using only one hit point total. All effects of a failed save against any persistent effect, such as poisons or the scare spell, remain with you when you reappear on the third round after activating the bracers. This includes death effects and dying due to hit point or ability loss.
A pair of temporal bracers can be used three times a day, but can only be activated once every four rounds.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, time stop; Cost 82,620 gp
I really like these. Keep. I think this is a real elegant solution to the possible overlap of two people there at once.
Kept.
This is really weird, but neat. Reminds me of the character Flashback from Alpha Flight.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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This is really weird, but neat. Reminds me of the character Flashback from Alpha Flight.
Go Alphans!!!
Flashback rules! Even if he did see one of his future selves die and then always had to wonder when that one would be him. Such a happy life to lead...
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Congratulations on making it into RPG Superstar 2009!
There's no easy way to do time-swapping items and powers. This is very similar to a psi power in The Will and the Way for Dark Sun (that's the second time I've referenced that book in looking at these items - weird). Essentially, you are trading an extra set of actions this round for your set of actions next round - this round there are two of you, next round there are NONE of you, and then after that you're back to normal. I like it, it's fun!
It's a neat power stunt to pull off and a fun thing to put in an item. It's impressive that you covered all the basics necessities for such a complex item in 200 words, so you get good marks for economy of language. The item description has some color but is not overdone.
Summary: Very solid item. It's a good power for a high-level item, one which references (intentionally or not) older editions of D&D and comic book lore, which appeals to a lot of the grognards out there like me. You showed good ability to pack necessities into a tight space without sacrificing clarity on an effect that is inherently somewhat confusing. Overall, a very good job.
Contributor, RPG Superstar
aka Leandra Christine Schneider
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A high level item, and a good one at that. I am impressed that you had the courage to write up such a complicated and potentially dangerous mechanic to submit here. It was a bold concept and you excuted it well...that defines a potential Superstar to me.
Positive
Bold concept with good execution.
Not overdone on name or back story.
It uses time thingies without messing everything up. That’s good stuff.
Nice layout.
Negative
I didn't spot anything, but I might have been blinded by the flashiness of this one.
After reviewing all other items:
…I have a favourite for this round. Yes, it is the most expensive and flashy item, but it just screamed Superstar to me (I might be too easily impressed…hmmm). Keep that up!
aka Robert G. McCreary
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Wow, pricey! Then again, it is time stop. And what a cool effect! Two of you at once, but only for a round. Hard to abuse, but could be very useful. Of course, it does raise the specter of the paradox, if the "original" wearer is killed in the round he activates the bracer, how can his living future self come back in time? I guess that's a problem with time travel, and probably beyond the discussion of a wondrous item, though.
I've been a fan of time travel in D&D since the 2nd edition Chronomancy book. I would definitely give these a try (if I can scratch up the gold!) - they're just too fun not too. Really nice job. I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with in the following rounds. Congratulations on joining the ranks of RPG Superstar!
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4
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Man, after reading over so much praise, I almost wish I hated these!
And, really, I'm not sure why they're bracers, now that I'm just looking for something to rag on.
Plus, well ... that's actually all I got.
*grin*
This is good work. I dare say GREAT work - quick, to-the-point and well designed, while still feeling flashy and unique and even (dare I say it?) ... wondrous!
To address Rob's query above: that's a really good question.
By the way I read this, the original & the "future" user only share the same hit-points. Meaning that if, for example, you take a move action to summon yourself, then cast a lightning bolt, then your future self moves thirty feet & casts a lighting bolt and then the original you eats 5,000 damage from a prismatic dragon later that round, you both die, vanish for a full round, and then a dead body re-appears where the previous future you HAD been standing.
So ... how did he/I cast a lightning bolt if I/he was already dead?
... my brain hurts.
Great item, wonderful job, and congratulations! I look forward to seeing much, much more brain-liquefying awesome as Superstar! continues!
Wow. Wow wow wow wow wow. Wow.
Thank you so much first off. This was an amazing experience. I'm just glad I got off my butt early enough this year. Anyway, on to the critiques and what-not.
We've seen a fair number of temporal items; this is one of the better ones.
Inclined to keep it around a bit, though I think the design is overly complicated. Maybe it's the editor in me.
Thank you Wolfgang. Trust me, trimming this monster down to the word limit was what cut the really overly complicated to just overly complicated. Also, trying to get the wording right on theoretical physics isn't easy.
As for the Alpha Flight and Dark Sun references, those were completely unintentional. I remember Flashback, but I haven't read any AF in so long, he'd gone from my memory. As for the Dark Sun, heh, I haven't even played 2nd Edition... Wow... Just show that you're a noob, eh Phil? ;-)
Jason, Christine, Rob, Clinton thanks for the kinds words. Clinton, as for the "first one dying" issue, I was going to add a caveat about if one dies, they both die, but I didn't have the word space. Though the "One hit point total" should cover that, but clarification always help.
Next year I intend to create contractions like "stron'utation" and "Constru'quirements" to keep the word count down ;-)
Philip,
Congratulations!
I have to say, I think that I like your wondrous item the best out of all of the entries--I even like it better than my own! I can't stop thinking about different ways to use something like this. I'm looking forward to seeing what you submit for the coming rounds.
-Lucas
Just freakin' kewl :) I love time mucking items, and this one is awesome!
Very, very cool. Time manipulation is very tough to do well with the 3.5 ruleset, and this one comes as close as anything I've seen. It does seem to be a bit lacking on interaction between the past and future self, though. I suppose that's just the nature of paradoxes.
What happens if the future self kills the past self?
I like it. Decent name, good concept, mechanic that recognizes some of the problems that come to mind.
My one concern is that it reminds me very strongly of a certain pair of quests in the new World Of Warcraft expansion. I'm going to assume this was an independent realization of a cool idea. :-)
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Nice 'alpha strike' item, and one that doesn't actually grant extra actions, it actually steals an action from the future (and makes you twice as vulnerable during your double action round!).
"I need two actions *now*, but am willing to have zero actions in the following round."
Being hit by an area effect spell when there are two of you 'up' is going to be a sad, sad thing. Cost of mucking with time, I guess. :)
This is a very cool item. Now a rogue can flank with himself (which sounds dirty but isn't).
"I need two actions *now*, but am willing to have zero actions in the following round."
The beauty of it is that "missing" the following round can actually be an advantage. Example (imagine you're surrounded by enemies):
1st action ("now" you): cast entangle or similar spell at your own feet
2nd action ("future" you): cast delayed blast fireball at your own feet, set to go off in the very next round
next round: you're "missing" when the fireball goes off, but none of your enemies could run away because of the entangle spell
third round: you re-appear in the middle of a smoldering mound of crispy enemies.
I'm sure that other people could come up with even more creative uses for this. On the DM side, imagine the reaction of a party unfamiliar with this item: "What just happened? Did he just cast mirror image and then teleport away? Why was there only one duplicate?"
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Dedicated Voter Season 6
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Hmm. Seems a bit overcosted, since you're "paying it backwards" as it were. But I sure wouldn't make them cheap either.
My first thought was "Neat! Flashback bracers!". I'm glad I'm not the only one. One of the stronger items in this round. I'd love to own a pair on my combat wizard.
Very impressed the mechanics got compressed down to 200 words - that'll pay off if you ever try to write a magic item chapter, believe me. Focusing on short mechanics can lead you to the (desireable) end of ditching overly complicated items in favor of simpler and hopefully more elegant design.
To address Rob's query above: that's a really good question.
By the way I read this, the original & the "future" user only share the same hit-points. Meaning that if, for example, you take a move action to summon yourself, then cast a lightning bolt, then your future self moves thirty feet & casts a lighting bolt and then the original you eats 5,000 damage from a prismatic dragon later that round, you both die, vanish for a full round, and then a dead body re-appears where the previous future you HAD been standing.
So ... how did he/I cast a lightning bolt if I/he was already dead?
If there's one thing Doctor Who has taught me, it's that time while is fluid enough to move through, you can't really change it. The reason he can cast lightning bolt even though his “future self” is dead is because he already did it. It's been done and can't be changed (at least not by the scope of my little item).
Very, very cool. Time manipulation is very tough to do well with the 3.5 ruleset, and this one comes as close as anything I've seen. It does seem to be a bit lacking on interaction between the past and future self, though. I suppose that's just the nature of paradoxes.
What happens if the future self kills the past self?
Thanks for the kinds words. As for the “future kills the past”, the same thing that happens if your character would stab himself with his own sword; He'd take damage and more than likely need to save vs. a coup de grace. The trick to this item is that you need to look as both versions as one character. Anything that would affect the former affects the latter, and vice versa.
I admit, I first wanted to call these “Bracers of the Silver Mount” and have a bit of Pathfinder fluff accompanying them. Ya know, the Technic League, Numerian warrior kings, skymetal used in the creation... But, well, I opted for crunch rather than fluff and it worked. Though if I could do it with a longer backstory, I'd fully tie them into a Numeria adventure. Oh, and Boomer, the only reason I made them bracers is because I got the mental image of Capt Jack Harkness's wrist-teleporter and ran with that.
An finally, the math for those of you who are curious.
Use-activated - 9th spell level x 17th CL x 2,000 : 306,000
Charges per day – 306,000 / [5/3] : 183,600
4 rounds recharge time (10% discount) – 183,600 x .9 : 165,240 gp
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Contributor
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I really like this item, but I have to go back further than Alpha Flight or Dark Sun for my point of reference. This item allows you to use "temporal fugue," first (afaik) invented by Roger Zelazny in Creatures of Light and Darkness in 1969, and available as a mental mutation in Gamma World (at least by second edition, if not first). One of my all time favourite special effects.
And this happens to be a very elegant implementation of it!
This is the first time that I write down on a piece of paper what exactly does an item do! :D
After I put it into visual perspective, it really doesn't look that complicated. And starts looking very, very neat. This is a powerful toy, sure, but has it's drawbacks. It's well balanced, in my opinion.
All in all, these Bracers are a tactician's dream come true. I know certain players of mine that would love to have that and come up with different tactics. An item that makes players satisfied and feel inventive sounds Superstar to me!
At first I started out thinking...okay, a time travel item...and I usually don't like the whole mucking with the time stream angle. But, you totally pulled this off in a way that's unique, interesting, believable, and not nearly as abusable I initially feared. That takes great design work, I think. So kudos to you! Well done...and welcome to the Top 32. Good luck in the future rounds.
My two-cents,
--Neil
Temporal Bracers are well written. They definitely have a spell-punk feel to them, though on the extravagant side of things. They seem a little blatantly sci-fi but not in the "oozes from outer space" cool way. Other than that, a very well designed and themed item.
This is really weird, but neat. Reminds me of the character Flashback from Alpha Flight.Go Alphans!!!
Flashback rules! Even if he did see one of his future selves die and then always had to wonder when that one would be him. Such a happy life to lead...
(plot device which was taken from earlier Captain Britain comic scripted by a certain A. Moore, where that happened to an alien named Legion with the same power...)
Contributor
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Star Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 9
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(plot device which was taken from earlier Captain Britain comic scripted by a certain A. Moore, where that happened to an alien named Legion with the same power...)This is really weird, but neat. Reminds me of the character Flashback from Alpha Flight.Go Alphans!!!
Flashback rules! Even if he did see one of his future selves die and then always had to wonder when that one would be him. Such a happy life to lead...
John Byrne always "borrowed" from the best!
Apologies, but someone has to say this... :(
ItemGreat idea, except it doesn't work in Pathfinder Beta. You fall down on the construction requirements.
Check the description of the Time Stop spell:
Page 282...This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are still moving at their normal speeds...Time Stop in Beta doesn't have anything to do with literally messing around with time.
A brave attempt to apply game mechanics to a nightmare of a concept, but it shows that you didn't actually check the description of the spell you were using.Please try again with with wish or perhaps another spell as an alternate construction requirement. :)
Very good point, it doesn't replicate time stop all. That would make it a spell-in-a-can though, and if I just used wish, I'd have a limited and specific wish-spell-in-a-can, both of which would have more than likely gotten me rejected.
I didn't start with "What spell do I want to emulate?", I started with "What effect do I want to end with?" and went from there. Time stop was a means to do that. Sometimes you've got to bend the rules just a bit to get the really good stuff. Ask Nic Logue if hisThough, now that I really think about it, I probably could've gotten away with adding haste into the requirements to compensate for the acceleration of time, but that'd make it more complicated than it needed to. Would your double be hasted? Would you be? Could the bracer dispel a slow effect? Things like that would crop up for no reason (Of course, I'm a bit of a pessimist, so that's my own nay-saying).
Long story short, the bracers don't recreate time stop, nor should they. That's not what they're meant to do.
I find this item to be heavily overpowered, for anything but an artifact.
The item nearly perfectly duplicates the epic spell, Time Duplicate, other than using a move action instead of swift to activate. By combining conditions and hit points, it does negate the worst abuses of Time Duplicate, but leaves the advantages.
For instance, any spells used by the original caster after bringing in the duplicate end up not being used. This ends up being equivalent to 3 Pearls of Power 9th *and* a Rod of Metamagic Quicken combined.
It does prevent things like summoning the duplicate, quickened teleport to enemies, and use a retributive strike from a staff of power or other suicide maneuvers.
Time Stop is fine as a prerequisite, but the overall power is just too much.
I find this item to be heavily overpowered, for anything but an artifact.
The item nearly perfectly duplicates the epic spell, Time Duplicate, other than using a move action instead of swift to activate. By combining conditions and hit points, it does negate the worst abuses of Time Duplicate, but leaves the advantages.
To be fair, I've never played in an epic game and only recently picked up the book to help complete my 3.5 collection. I'll take a look at the spell when I get the chance.
For instance, any spells used by the original caster after bringing in the duplicate end up not being used. This ends up being equivalent to 3 Pearls of Power 9th *and* a Rod of Metamagic Quicken combined.
It does prevent things like summoning the duplicate, quickened teleport to enemies, and use a retributive strike from a staff of power or other suicide maneuvers.
Time Stop is fine as a prerequisite, but the overall power is just too much.
How so? As is stated, the character still only has one pool of items and abilities to pull from, be they fireballs or potions of cure light wounds. If one "version" uses something it's used up.
I hate time travel items, so I'm probably going to be unreasonably harsh here. First of all, either the writing needs to be cleaned up or you need a chart or something to tell you what effects happen and on which rounds they happen. Also, when "you reappear" do you have the stuff that your original self had, or the stuff that your future self had. For example, if your future self picked up a bomb, would it disappear with them forever when they vanished? Also, I'm not sure why both selves would be affected by one HP pool or persistant effect. If you brought your future self back, then both of you were hit by a fireball, would you effectively take double damage? And while it says that persistant effects remain with you after the spell, do their durations continue while you're gone for that round. For example, let's say you were dropped to -9 in the turn you activate this item. Are you possibly dead by the time you come back on round 3?
I hate time travel items, so I'm probably going to be unreasonably harsh here.
That's kool. I need both types of responses if I intend to be a better designer/writer, so fire away :)
First of all, either the writing needs to be cleaned up or you need a chart or something to tell you what effects happen and on which rounds they happen.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Here's what I have in the item's description:
You may activate these gem-studded bracers as a move action, pulling your “future self” to the past for one round. Your future self appears in a square adjacent to you, acts as your turn ends, and may take one full-round's worth of actions. At the start of your next turn both incarnations, and any items carried by them, disappear for one round. At the start of your third turn, you reappear in the square where your future self was last standing, appearing in the nearest adjacent square if that one is occupied.
Round 1 - Activate item as move action, take standard action, swift action, and free action. Future you takes their full round's worth of actions.
Round 2 - Both "you's" disappear.
Round 3 - You reappear in the last spot future you was standing.
Also, when "you reappear" do you have the stuff that your original self had, or the stuff that your future self had. For example, if your future self picked up a bomb, would it disappear with them forever when they vanished?
I had wanted to add in a stipulation where any "excess" items picked up by future you would reappear at your feet, but the word count was too high so it was nixed.
Also, I'm not sure why both selves would be affected by one HP pool or persistant effect. If you brought your future self back, then both of you were hit by a fireball, would you effectively take double damage?
Yes. In the same vein, both could be healed twice by a mass cure light wounds spell. It's mucking about with time, not exactly the safest thing, but it has its uses.
And while it says that persistant effects remain with you after the spell, do their durations continue while you're gone for that round. For example, let's say you were dropped to -9 in the turn you activate this item. Are you possibly dead by the time you come back on round 3?
No. Another bit of editing lost to word count; Rounds spent "returning" to the future do not count towards spell duration or other effects. So if you were at -2 hit points and on round 2 of 4 for the scare spell at the end of Round 1, you'd come back still at -2 hit points and on round 2 of 4 on Round 3. I hope this cleared up some of the item confusion.
OK, this item is absolutely freakin' amazing.
The nitpick about construction requirements is pretty ridiculous, someone is letting their rules lawyering get in the way of a great concept. Concept and imagination come first, before the rules. Bend them for a good idea and benefit.
I am also amazed at the amount of concerns over "you can cast extra spells!?" and "what happens if he dies!?" when the description plainly states that you have no more spells, hit-points, or other resources than the SINGLE character does. I am not trying to be a jerk, but read over the description well before posting feedback. You basically get 2 full rounds of actions, as 2 separate entities that share the same resources, then miss a round, then resume third round as normal. Sort of like an old second edition haste with a body double.
Very cool, with great limits to keep it from being overpowered.
Bravo, and congrats on top 32!
A very tight, well thought out design. High powered without being broken. Bold as brass, and pulls it off too. Definitely one of my faves.
I'd like it even better if, instead of saying you can only use it every four rounds, using it more often than every four rounds made you vanish into the time stream never to be seen again. That would probably take you over the word limit, but in a perfect world I'd rather see 'if you do this something awful (but also kind of cool) happens' than 'this can't be done'.
The nitpick about construction requirements is pretty ridiculous, someone is letting their rules lawyering get in the way of a great concept. Concept and imagination come first, before the rules. Bend them for a good idea and benefit.
Agreed.
I am also amazed at the amount of concerns over "you can cast extra spells!?" and "what happens if he dies!?" when the description plainly states that you have no more spells, hit-points, or other resources than the SINGLE character does. I am not trying to be a jerk, but read over the description well before posting feedback.
How so? As is stated, the character still only has one pool of items and abilities to pull from, be they fireballs or potions of cure light wounds. If one "version" uses something it's used up.
Rootbeer, no worries about being a jerk. But despite you both mentioning it, the item states absolutely nothing about resources other than hit-points. Perhaps read over the description a bit closer? :)
I should say GG, very well crafted item, no question there. I'd just nudge it up to the major artifact realm *personally*.
Rootbeer, no worries about being a jerk. But despite you both mentioning it, the item states absolutely nothing about resources other than hit-points. Perhaps read over the description a bit closer? :)
I should say GG, very well crafted item, no question there. I'd just nudge it up to the major artifact realm *personally*.
Crap, you're right. Heh... Mento-link with rootbeergone then? Wow. I guess I had to clip that.
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RPG Superstar 2013
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Dedicated Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka Steven T. Helt
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Time Stop in Beta doesn't have anything to do with literally messing around with time.
Fits in perfectly with everyone's understanding of time, avoids rules pit falls and uses the most powerful time spell in creation. I think it's fine that way.
My only hang up is the single pool of hp doesn't make sense. I say keep the price where it is, even if you're paying your extra round back on the other side, and just take damage indivisually.
As a Dm, I would enhance this experience. I would make the future PC show uup with description of better stuff and crazy abilities. I would also foreshadow something about the future of the campaign (a lot of practice with this in my FR/Tomb of Horrors game), then I would make a note that in the future - possibly at a crucial time, the PC vanishes for a few seconds unaccountably and returns.
I mean, time travel has to be fun for me, too.
Well done. See your villain soon.
Given that three experienced industry judges, the RPGSuperstar contestant who wrote this thread's item, and several other posters have apparently assumed that Time Stop did something other than 'make the wizard move very fast', I have started a thread over on the spells & magic forum of the Beta Playtest, recommending the Beta designers reconsider the explanation for how the spell works.
If you would like to express your views on the topic on that thread: *link here*
You get some sour grapes at the grocery store?
Sure, time stop doesn't function like the effect of the bracers. What's your point? As was mentioned in at least one thread, Superstar items break the rules.
Let's assume that you were witnessing someone cast time stop. Perhaps the target of the spell moves so fast that it appears that there are two of him, in the blur.
Given the spell description, that's what I figure that I might see. Time stop functions for 1d4+1 round - so, that's a minimum of two rounds. That's what the bracers are granting you (the user is effectively moving double-speed, or getting two full-round actions), and then adding a lost round on top of that, which time stop doesn't do.
The bracers add in some awesome flavor about bringing a double in from the future for a round, and you've got the ability to make attacks (unlike time stop.)
Wish is a cop-out in this competition, and if this item had functioned exactly like time stop, it would have been the dreaded "spell-in-a-can" and not made it to the top 32.
This is a heck of a cool item, and there's not an issue with the mechanics here.
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I get the feeling that you are missing the point about an wondrous item not having to do exactly what the component spells do...My points are that:
(1) I do not consider Time Stop (as currently written) a suitable spell for a construction requirement for this spell.
(2) A lot of people seem to think that Time Stop seems to work differently from the way that it does in the Beta, or that it should work differently to the way that it does in the Beta.
Though it sounds odd to say i do not see the need to worry about the spell in use so much. Makes enough sense to me.
I was going to point out the classic Bag of Holding for an example... It needs secret chestand that spell places a chest on the ethereal plane. The contents of the bag are just an unspecified extra-dimensional space. Pretty classic i would say.
An even better example would be the Haversack... it does not even specify that the storage is extra-dimensional, it just is. As an added point it always gives you the specific item you need when you reach in. No need for a unseen servant or anything else... rather wondrous.
I was going to point out the classic Bag of Holding for an example... It needs secret chestand that spell places a chest on the ethereal plane. The contents of the bag are just an unspecified extra-dimensional space. Pretty classic i would say.
An even better example would be the Haversack... it does not even specify that the storage is extra-dimensional, it just is. As an added point it always gives you the specific item you need when you reach in. No need for a unseen servant or anything else... rather wondrous.
Yeah, that's true; in general, magic items don't necessarily have spells that exactly duplicate their effects, and very often it's perfectly okay to have a spell that matches the feel of the effect even if what it actually does is something completely different. Obviously, if an item does duplicate a specific spell effect, it had better have that spell in its prerequisites, but otherwise there's a lot of subjectivity and adaptation involved in choosing prerequisite spells, and getting too hung up on whether or not a specific spell really does exactly what the item does is counterproductive.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka JoelF847
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I like this item in concept, but either I'm missing something basic, or it actually seems really underpowered to me. Isn't it basically a quicken spell except that you can use it for any standard action, not just a spell? Since you need a move action to activate it, you're left with a standard action, and your time buddy has a full round action. This isn't really different from having your full round action, and then a quickened spell (or extra attack at your best attack bonus, a la haste.) I almost think that for the price, you should get an entire 2nd round of both you and your duplicate acting before skipping 2 rounds.
I do like that the "can't be used more than once every 4 rounds" prevents you from chaining the effects and having your double activating the bracers also and pulling in a third incarnation of yourself.
That being said, it is a cool concept, and incredibly elegantly writen to fit within the 200 words. Good job. Hopefully your villain won't induce as many headaches thinking about them (unless they're a psion or something.)