I know it might be late in the game and all so to speak, but I would really like to see the Assassin get some sort of ability to deal with a world full of resurrection magic and divinations.
It seems to me that anyone worthy of being "assassinated" as opposed to just plain murdered, will have access to resurrection magic, and that Assassins in such a magical world should have a class ability or special access to materials, rituals, whatever that can help deal with these sorts of things. This way their victims can stay dead, and their identities can be harder to determine.
Maybe not a flat out no resurrection ability, but a percentage or some other mechanic.
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But why would you want someone you killed to stay dead? That's steady work for you.
"I'm sorry, but the contract we agreed on was for the murder of one king. No mention of resurrection insurance was included. If you'd like we can sign a new contract, but of course the price will be higher due to the increased security around the target."
And of course, they could have just gone to the Red Mantis guild in the first place.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Also, consider who would hire someone to assassinate the king. Most likely, it would be someone who's ready to swoop in and take the throne themselves. If that's the case, who's going to be raising the dead king when the new power on the throne says, "Sorry, but I like sitting on the throne, don't bring him back. It would be a shame to have the army tear down your church and throw you in the dungeon..."
Also, if you are still worried about resurrection magic, just hire the assassin to first kill the one priest in town who's high enough level to cast the spell. Lots of kingdoms don't have more than one such caster available.
I'd love to see some sort of 'Trap the Soul' capstone ability for assassins. That way an assassin could slay the king and take his soul back to the assassin's employer for safe keeping.
I totally realize that there are workarounds for the resurrection problem, heck there are workarounds for lots of the things we are trying to fix by changing the rules for PFRPG,
I just figure that if a class is going to be called the Assassin, and there are guilds of Assassins, and these Assassins live in a world of magical resurrections and divination, that they would have developed some sort of technique to deal with it, otherwise they are really just a "hitmens" guild.
It doesn't even have to be something easy, or able to be done once combat starts. Maybe it requires a 24 hour ritual beforehand and a piece of the kings hair to accomplish, I dunno. To my mind, some way to sever the soul just makes sense for the class.
I totally realize that there are workarounds for the resurrection problem, heck there are workarounds for lots of the things we are trying to fix by changing the rules for PFRPG.
I get what you're saying here, but consider:
"Bring me his head!" - blocks Raise Dead.
"Bring me his body!" - disintegrated or not, blocks Resurrection.
"Bring me his soul!" - blocks True Resurrection. This is all an Assassin can't do easily - so I could see a capstone "Soul Bind" ability, maybe. It's darn expensive for all but the super-rich though.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I like the change of removing spells from assassins, and because of this, I'd rather see assassins not get any supernatural abilities (or spell like for that matter).
An assassin can behead a target, which removes raise dead from the table, and requires a 7th level spell then to bring back from the dead.
At that point, I'd rather introduce a magical poison or something that either disintegrates the body (thus requiring a 9th level True Ressurection spell) or that simply destroys the soul outright.
For that matter, if you're worried that your target could be brought back from the dead, then you should pay for an assassin that has a portable hole, and have him bring you the body, and you can guard it. Or, pay for the assassin to use a shroud of disintegration for 6,600 gp (if you have the assassin procure the shroud themselves, expect a markup!)
Director of Games
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I am in agreement with the folks here...
This class should have a "and stay dead" type ability.
How about an ability that forces a pretty high level check to raise someone killed by an assassin with this ability?
I could get behind a trap the soul type effect too, but I am open to other options.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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I am in agreement with the folks here...
This class should have a "and stay dead" type ability.
How about an ability that forces a pretty high level check to raise someone killed by an assassin with this ability?
I could get behind a trap the soul type effect too, but I am open to other options.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
How about giving him back his spells and making one of them trap the soul?
A magic poison, or a check made during resurrection are both fine with me. I am definitely not looking for an automatic soul-kill, but at least a chance to keep the target in the ground.
Why not give them a supernatural ability at level 5 or so that makes their death attack a death effect, blocking Raise Dead. As a capstone their death attack should emulate Destruction, blocking Resurrection.
I don't like the idea that a 15th level non-magic-using character could be able to block True Resurrection, but I think that a properly worded Wish or Miracle cast on the weapon should do the trick. Something like: "May he who is slain by this dagger never rise again."
I am in agreement with the folks here... This class should have a "and stay dead" type ability. How about an ability that forces a pretty high level check to raise someone killed by an assassin with this ability?
That sounds like exactly what the doctor ordered... as long as the check is hard to make. A caster level check against DC 11 + the assassin's class level is a sick joke; no one capable of casting resurrection can conceivably fail that except on a "1." A caster level check against DC 25 + the assassin's class level might work.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I am in agreement with the folks here... This class should have a "and stay dead" type ability. How about an ability that forces a pretty high level check to raise someone killed by an assassin with this ability?That sounds like exactly what the doctor ordered... as long as the check is hard to make. A caster level check against DC 11 + the assassin's class level is a sick joke; no one capable of casting resurrection can conceivably fail that except on a "1." A caster level check against DC 25 + the assassin's class level might work.
I'd rather see 15 + double the assassin's class level. DC 26 for a 1st level assassin seems a bit harsh.
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A magic poison, or a check made during resurrection are both fine with me. I am definitely not looking for an automatic soul-kill, but at least a chance to keep the target in the ground.
An ageing effect is a candidate, since you can't resurrect someone who died of old age.
A potent poison that remains active in the victims remains and poisons anyone who attempts to raise them - the king might come back, but it costs the country their high-priest.
A curse laid upon the remains that affects the newly resurrected person - amnesia would certainly reduce benefit of bringing someone bad; homicidal insanity would make bringing them back 'fun'.
Some sort of demonic/devilish pact where the high-level assassin has drawn the attention of such creatures and can collect souls and trade them for favours.
Killing the high-priest first, as someone else mentioned, is the pragmatic solution.
Cutting the ties of the soul to the mortal plane: The assassin can learn ahead of time what unresolved business could draw the soul back to the mortal plane and can therefore arrange things such that the target will not want to come back - pre-emptive setting of their affairs in order. A soul has to be willing to return, and we have to presume that the afterlife is so compelling that only the most motivated souls would want to come back.
Slightly more mystical: The assassin can invest some of his own soul in the targets remains (negative level). If the target is resurrected, the priest doing so is drawn into an astral/psychic/illusionary one-on-one battle against a duplicate of the assassin.
And more mundane : A jar of flesh and bone eating beetles emptied over the corpse means a 9th level spell is required.
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I am in agreement with the folks here... This class should have a "and stay dead" type ability. How about an ability that forces a pretty high level check to raise someone killed by an assassin with this ability?That sounds like exactly what the doctor ordered... as long as the check is hard to make. A caster level check against DC 11 + the assassin's class level is a sick joke; no one capable of casting resurrection can conceivably fail that except on a "1." A caster level check against DC 25 + the assassin's class level might work.
I was about to post something similar with a DC 20+ assassin's level check, but thinking about it further, a DC 25 + assassin level check might be more reasonable. Of course, if it's a capstone ability, setting it at DC 30 + the assassin's charisma modifier might be the way.
On a related note, I say we call the ability "Final Reward".
Final Reward (SU): The assassin has connection to a god of murder or death, that they may or may not be aware of, which hampers victims slain by a death attack from returning to life. The soul of victim slain by an assassin's death attack may not raised or resurrected without the caster making a DC 30 + assassin's charisma modifier check. This check may only be attempted once for the victim. Thereafter, the victim's soul has gone on to it's final reward, and may not be returned to life by mortal magic, including wish, miracle, and similar spells.
Thoughts?
Edited for punctuation.
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I don't like the idea that a 15th level non-magic-using character could be able to block True Resurrection, but I think that a properly worded Wish or Miracle cast on the weapon should do the trick. Something like: "May he who is slain by this dagger never rise again."
Hmm... I'd think that an assassin would be worried enough about revenge from resurrected targets without investing in a dagger that renders them impotent as well as dead... ;)
Here is my suggestion:
Make the Death Attack (past some level) count as a Death effect. This blocks Raise Dead.
At a higher level, grant the caster level check for Ressurection. You've have to add something to prevent retries at ressurection by the same caster, though. 15 + 2*Assassin level seems right for the check.
Here is my suggestion:
Make the Death Attack (past some level) count as a Death effect. This blocks Raise Dead.
At a higher level, grant the caster level check for Ressurection. You've have to add something to prevent retries at ressurection by the same caster, though. 15 + 2*Assassin level seems right for the check.
If the material components of the ressurection spell are consumed regardless of sucess, that would be a good deterrent to retrying.
Contributor
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For flavor, how about certain runes that schools of assassins teach their inner members. The assassins inscribe them on their weapons and a target slain with such weapons incurs the checks should anyone try to ressurect them. The runes alone, of course, are useless. It takes the bond between inscription and assassin to make it work. But it creates the possibility of disarming an assassin of a rune weapon, preserving one's ability to be ressurected if slain despite the disarm.
I would not mind something that helps keep divinations of the Assassins back as well, especially now with all their spells gone. Speak with Dead is a pain, though I suppose that if the Assassin did his job right, the target never saw him in the first place.
I long ago adopted the ideas from "Jhereg" regarding assassination in a culture where resurrection and reincarnation were possible. Beheading or destroying/removing the body are the "standard" to keep someone dead; not doing either is considered a warning, as in "You're not important enough for me to care if you stay dead or not". The ultimate is destroying the soul, using a special weapon quality (Morganti weapon in the Dragaera universe). Limitations on its use is the foulness of the deed which stains and never leaves the user, the fact that everyone within a certain distance can "feel" the weapon when drawn so the assassin stands out, and automatically makes the assassin the target of anyone within striking distance.
I can see giving a trap the soul class ability at one stage, and then a class capstone consume the soul ability. But it should have drawbacks to the user built in. Make it a seriously big deal to request and use (major money for the client, something else for the assassin).
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I am in agreement with the folks here...
This class should have a "and stay dead" type ability.
How about an ability that forces a pretty high level check to raise someone killed by an assassin with this ability?
I could get behind a trap the soul type effect too, but I am open to other options.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Yep, I'm definitely in favor of a Supernatural or Extraordinary ability ("Slayer's strike"?), which would function as a Caster Level Check against the Assassin's class level+10+INT/DEX(?), *or* as a Caster Level Check vs. the Assassin's character level or 10 + class level?
I am in agreement with the folks here...
This class should have a "and stay dead" type ability.
How about an ability that forces a pretty high level check to raise someone killed by an assassin with this ability?
I could get behind a trap the soul type effect too, but I am open to other options.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I'd leave that out of the class features, and rely on the assassin's equipment/resourcefulness instead. I see the assassin as someone particularly good at killing, but the target of an assassin shouldn't more dead than dead. Just as the fighter rely partially on its equipment to perform in its "profession" so should the assassin be ready for the job.
To prevent the embarrassing return to life of its mark, I see the assassin relying on items bestowing curses on their victims, pacts with fiends "selling" their target's soul, magical traps, special astrological conditions etc. In a fantasy world where resurrection exist and is relatively accessible, it should be up to the character's ingenuity to counter such a spell, be it assassin, fighter or any other class. At least it should be something more flavourful than "target cannot be raised nor resurrected 1/day".
'findel
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I like calling it 'And stay dead!'
I also like the idea of the 'bonded weapon'
To keep it simple, you could say that the bonded weapon blocks divination/resuurection spells of the class level -1.
So the 1st level assassin's bonded weapon blocks 'detect magic' and 'detect poison' on people slain with it, while the 5th level assassin blocks reincarnate and the 10th level assassin eats true resurrection for breakfast.
I am in agreement with the folks here...
This class should have a "and stay dead" type ability.
How about an ability that forces a pretty high level check to raise someone killed by an assassin with this ability?
I could get behind a trap the soul type effect too, but I am open to other options.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Wouldn't doing that invalidate one of the primary reasons that people hire the Red Mantis? Surely doing that would tread on the Toes of the Red Mantis?
Assassins should have abilities to counter standard (and typically magical) defenses ("...and stay dead" is a good start). At the moment, without spells, the assassin just feels like the rogue equivalent of an archmage and the like.
I always have my high level Assassin NPCs carrying thinuan (sp?) weapons, so they can get around that silly true ressurection thing.
I would much rather see a mechanic that traps a soul so they can at least be rescued still (or the possibility exists at least), to the point where I wouldn't mind throwing a real soul-stealing assassin at my PCs.
On the other hand, if throwing an Assassin in the mix means that one of my high level PCs (that has been played for quite some time) has a X% chance to never get back up again, no matter what, I don't think I would do it. Plus, it leaves room for creativity on how to permanently wipe someone or something. If the answer was always "Oh, let's have a 10th level assassin stab it until it dies dead," then that isn't very much fun.
Maybe add on to the poison mechanic an ability to use weapons that will steal souls... without mistakenly sealing yourself in a jar.
Though, I do remember one of the biggest problems presented to me when I did throw soul-stealing Assassins at my PCs in 3.5, was delay death. There was an Assassin spell that prevented the target from being healed for minutes per level (which outlasted delay death). Anyway, I digress.
Leave the destruction of souls to deities!
I'd like to join the chorus of people saying 'And Stay Dead' is a good name for this ability, whatever its form.
Alright, here's my suggestion:
And Stay Dead! (Su) - At 4th level, when using his Death Attack to slay a target, an Assassin may choose to treat his Death Attack as a Death Effect, which prevents the target from being brought back using Raise Dead. (Resurrection and True Resurrection still work.)
To avoid overloading 4th level, Hide Weapons should be shifted to second or third level. (This also makes Hide Weapons scale better, since it won't leap to +4 from nothing.) Alternatively, And Stay Dead could go to 3rd level.
BTW, the sketch for the iconic Assassin looks bad-ass.
I think Paizo does have to discuss how the Assassin and Red Mantis Assassin interact. Obviously, the Red Mantis is an actual organization, but the 'Must kill someone to join the Assassins' pre-requisite suggests that the normal Assassins are also some sort of organization. If the non-Mantis Assassin isn't supposed to be an organization, I suggest the pre-requisite be changed to something like 'Must kill someone they did not previously know, strictly for pay.'
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I am in agreement with the folks here...
This class should have a "and stay dead" type ability.
How about an ability that forces a pretty high level check to raise someone killed by an assassin with this ability?
I could get behind a trap the soul type effect too, but I am open to other options.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Here's a notion:
Any attempt to revive a creature slain by an assassin requires a caster level check with a DC equal to 15 + the assassin's class level. If the target was killed by the assassin's death attack ability, the DC is 15 + twice the assassin's class level.
The idea here being that sure, assassin's can ultra-kill you just in regular combat, but they can even more super-ultra-mega kill you if they take the time and effort to use their death attack and you fail the save.
Call it supernatural, exceptional, whatever you like. Perhaps it's a gamist solution to a gamist problem, but I'm okay with that.
I think I'd much rather see abilities that make the assassin difficult or next to impossible to detect or find than see a special ability that caused "permanent" death. Like mentioned previously there is the Red Mantis PrC and they are supposed to be the "elite assassins" and they have the ability to sense when a mark is brought back. Why would you use them when you could just hire some thug off the street with death attack that would finish the target the first time and never have to worry about it? Granted they may not be SRD but they are definitely a part of Pathfinder and in the Campaign Setting book so its not like they are going anywhere and I doubt they are getting a rewrite at this time.
Also the DC's being tossed around here are really way too much. I mean a DC 17 caster check for someone killed by a 6th level character, nevermind the DC 26 that was posted? You now have PC's looking for a 16th level cleric to "raise dead" a character who might have been killed by an assassin to make sure their money isn't wasted trying to raise a comrade. As a part of the plot there are any number of ways to make it so an NPC can't be brought back when killed by an assassin as part of the story, when used against the PC's it will truly suck. Even at 15+ PrC class level your typical generic/random npc cleric (who isn't going to have +caster level items to optimize caster level) casting raise dead will fail about a third(roll of 1-6 on a d20) of the time costing the party (or whoever) 5450gp per try. At 6th level parties don't have that much money just sitting around, that would be half of a characters wealth, which currently means "We're glad you're back but the bad news was we had to sell all your stuff to afford it" as it stands now. If you fail on the check is the party going to pony up another 5.5k gp for a second try and if so where are they going to get it from??
Also a npc of 16th level can usually only be found in a metropolis sized community (DMG - highest level cleric 1d6 + 12 community modifier) which would mean most pc's won't be raised anytime soon if they are out adventuring at mid levels.
Then we look at the prereq's and abilities of the assassin class. It is based on disguise, stealth, Sneak attack and instant death attacks. Thematically it would make more sense to give the assassin things like non detection (maybe even a very short range aura of non detection to cover accomplices and victims as well) and have it scale up to something like the magical equivalent of the SRD Slayer's Cerebral Blind ability. Or something along the druid's Thousand Faces ability to use alter self would make sense as well. Granted giving out abilities like those suggested on other posts or the ones I propose means giving SP or SU abilities to a class that has been most decidedly and intentionally made non-magical in its rewrite which would really be against the grain of what Paizo seems to want for the Assassin PrC. They already have UMD so getting access to scroll (or wand or rod or staff for that matter) of destruction or slay living if they want to truly destroy a target are already options. I can see the assassin being involved with shady deals in back alleys with priests of less than savory gods trading gold or favors for such items can't you? If you want a soul sucking assassin take levels of the Soul Eater PrC or whatever it is called.
Honestly this is a band wagon I cannot get myself to jump on. If anything it is something I can see myself using disable device on its wheels constantly to make sure it doesn't go anywhere. Giving a non magical class the ability to "ultra kill" (and giving it a decent DC to boot) someone or something is a really really bad idea. It is the type of ability that becomes disruptive (used by DM's to kill off a character, or if you are playing an evil game character against character strife) and then has to be house ruled to not be usable against certain targets or making exceptions to get around it ("Oh, my god brought me back... Again... For the 4th time"). The Assassin PrC seems like it should be the Batman of the PrC's, no divine or arcane magic, having the training and gear to get the job done the right way. Sorry guys and gals, just my 2 cents for what it is worth.
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You could make this alot easier than it needs to be. Instead of a caster level check or a DC or whatever, just have the assassin's stay dead effect only be countered by a cleric of level 20 or higher AND/OR the person to be raised to be of the same faith as the cleric who is raising him.
We are doing this in my game to some extent...PCs can only be raised by clerics of gods who they worship.
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I'm not one for thinking assassins should get this for one reason that some might be overlooking.
... this would go two ways people.
"Woohooo!! My assassin killed the guy and he aint coming back. AWESOME!"
(The group high fives)
"AH CRAP! An assassin killed my guy. Res me guys!"
DM: "Sorry, it was an assassin"
(The group mourns)
Assassins are great at killing things. They're whole PrC revolves around that. But KEEPING something dead shouldn't be added I think.
Why can't fighters get this? They specialize in killing things.
Iono, I'm a huge fan as it stands but just keep in mind what you're asking here.
I like the idea of assassins being able to prevent things like speak with dead, raise dead and resurrection. Make it several abilities. Start with speak with dead at level 2 or so, raise dead at level 4, resurrection at level 8, true res at level 10 (if that one needs extra considerations).
At the moment, without spells, the assassin just feels like the rogue equivalent of an archmage and the like.
Agreed. They really need something to make up for that loss. Right now, I really wouldn't get into the class - you give up too much and get back too little.
Why not give them a supernatural ability at level 5 or so that makes their death attack a death effect, blocking Raise Dead. As a capstone their death attack should emulate Destruction, blocking Resurrection.
I think this works best, mechanically speaking.
However, I can't see how an Extraordinary ability could emulate that, other than the obvious "I remove his heart" or I burn his body and scatter the ashes", which anyone could do just as easily as the assassin (given the same lack of morality). Other than denying some of the requisites for the raise dead and resurrection spells, the conditions for a character to return to life are out of the assassin's control.
A Supernatural or Spell-like Ability would fit better, but goes against the more "mundane" pathfinder iteration of the assassin. Despite the fact that the assassin IS indeed a prestige class and that I agree that there shouldn't be a better assassin-like prestige class around, making the "standard" assassin lesser choice, Supernatural resources such as the ability to deny resurrection should come from a guild, organization or other sponsors outside the prestige class itself (and thus available to other members of the same organization).
'findel
I like some sort of mid-level ability which blocks Raise Dead, but I'd still rather see a capstone ability which allows the assassin to steal the soul. Chasing down an assassin to recover a PC's soul is much more entertaining than 'you're dead forever'.
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I like some sort of mid-level ability which blocks Raise Dead, but I'd still rather see a capstone ability which allows the assassin to steal the soul. Chasing down an assassin to recover a PC's soul is much more entertaining than 'you're dead forever'.
Agreed. It's great for story hooks and 'dead and denied your afterlife' is so much worse than just 'dead'.
I would like to see a non-magical Assassin ability to prevent resurrection. Perhaps the Assassin hides a small shard near the heart (or some other vital organ), so that immediately if it starts beating again, the person dies, thus effectively preventing resurrection. Circumventing this method would require finding the shard(s) by the resurrector and this could be made very difficult indeed.
I would like to see a non-magical Assassin ability to prevent resurrection. Perhaps the Assassin hides a small shard near the heart (or some other vital organ), so that immediately if it starts beating again, the person dies, thus effectively preventing resurrection. Circumventing this method would require finding the shard(s) by the resurrector and this could be made very difficult indeed.
That would require a Heal check to fix, I think. Which would be rather similar to a Caster Level Check for practical purposes.
Both solutions are good.