{Assassin} Making sure the king stays dead!


Prestige Classes

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Samuel Weiss wrote:
Laurefindel wrote:
but wouldn't it be where the problem lie?
Not necessarily. Sometimes the problem is elsewhere. A problem can be higher up a rules hierarchy, and changing a base rule can eliminate the need for multiple exceptions. Or it could be a synergy effect that is best solved by changing the other rule and leaving the current one alone.

I'm not sure if I get want you mean...

Yet, wouldn't it be more like a taking a cold pill or putting a band-aid rather than fixing the source of the problem?

'findel


(edited, off=-topic)
Samuel Weiss:

Spoiler:
I'm not clear now if you're outlining a problem you perceive and:
1) repeatedly posting 'I don't like your solutions, but I don't have any which I feel that I can offer on this thread myself'.
or
2) proposing as the solution intensive indoctrination/training for DMs.
or
3) trying to do something else I'm completely failing to understand.

I know the subject of DM education seminars came up in the chat yesterday, so if you're saying 'I think a minimum solution is to have a short chapter of important advice to DMs on character death, and a selection of optional rules for spells which involve raising the dead and adding corresponding abilities to classes if a DM wants to run a game where the possibility is open for PC death', then why not clearly state just that?

Liberty's Edge

Charles Evans 25 wrote:
Except Breath of Life is already in the Beta, so there is already pressure on such spell-slots. A 'must be used within minutes per level' version of raise dead could be carried around on a scroll as a form of 'insurance policy', presumably with an adjusted material component cost to the spell (and scrolls), since raise dead could no longer be used on someone who died a couple of days earlier.

OK, so then why would the king not have someone walking five feet behind him at all times with such a scroll? Or ten people for that matter.

And what about when the PCs are hanging out nearby with their scroll?
Even without that you now have a constant "tax" on resources with a "mandatory" item.

Liberty's Edge

Laurefindel wrote:

I'm not sure if I get want you mean...

Yet, wouldn't it be more like a taking a cold pill or putting a band-aid rather than fixing the source of the problem?

'findel

To just "fix" the assassin?

Yes it would.
Which leaves you needing yet another "fix" the next time it comes up in game play. When you put a band-aid on a cut, it eventually falls off. In a game system it does not, and in the long run that leads to a cluttered up system with excessive special cases to work around a few minor stress points.

Liberty's Edge

Charles Evans 25 wrote:
then why not clearly state just that?

I thought I had.

Well, except the part about optional rules.
And the possibility should always be open, it should simply not be the default. That is the paradigm shift, the *cough* "sacred cow" *cough* if you will, that I am addressing.


The paradigm shift to PCs not dying is an interesting one to discuss, to be sure. Its not something I would be in favor of, but it makes for an interesting topic.

That having been said, I'm pretty sure that a discussion on if the assassin PrC should have an ability that keeps someone from coming back from the dead is not the right place for it. Its pretty hard to discuss that particular issue when the meta issue of death and the specialness of PCs keeps dominating the discussion.

Quite honestly, its theoretically, game philosophy discussions like these that represent one of the biggest hurdles for me to participate in discussions of the Beta. My assumption, and I could be wrong, and would welcome someone from Paizo correcting me, is that 3.5 is the baseline, and that PFRPG won't deviate too far from that . . . a theoretical discussion on a fantasy pulp RPG where the PCs can't die seems to be removed from that model.

In fact, I'm a little tired of the focus and attention of various threads being shifted to issues that are not going to be resolved, and honestly only seem to be discussed in order to prove some absolute truism about gaming that "everyone" should realize.

So, can we discuss assassin's and killing people so that they stay dead, and perhaps move the gaming theory discussions elsewhere?

Liberty's Edge

KnightErrantJR wrote:
So, can we discuss assassin's and killing people so that they stay dead, and perhaps move the gaming theory discussions elsewhere?

I was discussing it; from its place in the overall structure of the game.

If you do not care about the theory behind it, or do not care to discuss the theory, that is fine. That should not exclude any mention of changing more than just a special ability.


Baquies wrote:
I would not mind something that helps keep divinations of the Assassins back as well, especially now with all their spells gone. Speak with Dead is a pain, though I suppose that if the Assassin did his job right, the target never saw him in the first place.

But there are other reasons to keep a dead person quiet. Perhaps the target knows something that someone wants to cover up, and that was the reason for the assassination in the first place. Of course, removing the head is just as effective against speak with dead as it is against raise dead.

Another possibility that a practical assassin should consider is that the victim may return as a ghost.


Samuel Weiss wrote:


OK, so then why would the king not have someone walking five feet behind him at all times with such a scroll? Or ten people for that matter.
And what about when the PCs are hanging out nearby with their scroll?
Even without that you now have a constant "tax" on resources with a "mandatory" item.

... because the gods may not like that their spells are used as insurance policies, and that high level clerics may have something better to do than stroll around the king waiting for him to be assassinated.

Making sure a person doesn't get raised or resurrected should indeed be part of a good assassin's plan, but it doesn't have to be part of its class features.

Fighters should be good at killing trolls. Yet they don't need an ability to prevent the troll's regeneration. They have to get the right equipment/strategy.

These are some of the challenges that players (and NPCs for that matter) have to overcome. It's part of the game and what makes it fun. Giving a class a feature that removes the challenge in the first place does not improve the game in the long run, IMO.

'findel


Laurefindel wrote:
Samuel Weiss wrote:


Making sure a person doesn't get raised or resurrected should indeed be part of a good assassin's plan, but it doesn't have to be part of its class features.
'findel

Yes, but, if making sure a person doesn't get raised or resurrected is part of a successful assassination, then such abilities SHOULD be part of an assassin class.

Otherwise, what is the point of having a specific Assassin Class. If we stick to mundane methods that any person can use, than any member of any class can be an "Assassin"

Laurefindel wrote:
Samuel Weiss wrote:


Fighters should be good at killing trolls. Yet they don't need an ability to prevent the troll's regeneration. They have to get the right equipment/strategy.

'findel

Fighters are good at "fighting", a more appropriate example would be if there were a "Troll-slayer" PRC. If a Troll slayer PRC does not have special abilities to thwart a Trolls regeneration, then what is the point of making it a separate class?

BY the same point is an "Assassin" class does not have class abilities that make it more successful as Assassinating people, then what is the point of such a class.

And again, there is a difference between assassinating, and just agreeing to kill someone for money, or just killing someone.

EDIT
If we are going to go the all mundane, equal access to countermeasures, route, I am fine with that. Make the Death Attack, and Poison Use, Rogue talents and eliminate the Assassin PRC, much like what was done with the Archmage. This will free up some space in the book.

It just seems to me that if we are going to have and Assassin PRC, then that class should grant abilities that make the person taking superior at the job of assassination than those who don't.

Liberty's Edge

Laurefindel wrote:
... because the gods may not like that their spells are used as insurance policies, and that high level clerics may have something better to do than stroll around the king waiting for him to be assassinated.

So another set of special rules?

How many special rules should be required for something as simple as killing a villain or miscellanous NPC to advance the plot?

Laurefindel wrote:
Making sure a person doesn't get raised or resurrected should indeed be part of a good assassin's plan, but it doesn't have to be part of its class features.

Except it cannot be part of the plan without it being a class feature, or requiring some other set of special rules for causing "permanent" death.

Laurefindel wrote:
Fighters should be good at killing trolls. Yet they don't need an ability to prevent the troll's regeneration. They have to get the right equipment/strategy.

Regeneration as a special ability has its own issues.

Laurefindel wrote:

These are some of the challenges that players (and NPCs for that matter) have to overcome. It's part of the game and what makes it fun. Giving a class a feature that removes the challenge in the first place does not improve the game in the long run, IMO.

'findel

Which is why I dislike all class features that grant immunity or supersede other rules, including things like evasion. That is another topic.


This whole topic is another topic frankly.

Samuel Weiss wrote:
Laurefindel wrote:
... because the gods may not like that their spells are used as insurance policies, and that high level clerics may have something better to do than stroll around the king waiting for him to be assassinated.

So another set of special rules?

How many special rules should be required for something as simple as killing a villain or miscellanous NPC to advance the plot?

Laurefindel wrote:
Making sure a person doesn't get raised or resurrected should indeed be part of a good assassin's plan, but it doesn't have to be part of its class features.

Except it cannot be part of the plan without it being a class feature, or requiring some other set of special rules for causing "permanent" death.

Laurefindel wrote:
Fighters should be good at killing trolls. Yet they don't need an ability to prevent the troll's regeneration. They have to get the right equipment/strategy.

Regeneration as a special ability has its own issues.

Laurefindel wrote:

These are some of the challenges that players (and NPCs for that matter) have to overcome. It's part of the game and what makes it fun. Giving a class a feature that removes the challenge in the first place does not improve the game in the long run, IMO.

'findel

Which is why I dislike all class features that grant immunity or supersede other rules, including things like evasion. That is another topic.


(edited, clarification)
As far as I can see so far, a number of points (roughly on topic with the thread) have been raised. As a quick summary, the main ones I have noticed seem to be:
1) Should the assassin have an ability which makes it more difficult to raise a target from the dead, or do rules already in play (EG the body must be intact for raise dead to currently work) provide sufficient coverage?
2) If an assassin is to gain any sort of class abilities that are intended to prevent raise dead and the like, should they be extraordinary or supernatural?
3) What complications may arise in-game if such abilities are successfully used on a PC?
4) If an assassin is not to have such abilities, what is the point of the class? Why not hire a high-level rogue, now that the spell-casting is gone (or transferred to the Red Mantis prestige class)? What differentiates an assassin from a high level rogue? (Being extra sneaky or more familiar with the use/employment of poisons have been two of various suggestions.)

Looking at a picture which seems to me to be beyond the specific scope of this thread, Samuel Weiss has suggested that it be considered whether or not PCs should be subject to risk of death, (which with regard to assassins might allow the removal of 'raise dead' canon of spells from the game with limited direct-impact on PCs and eliminating the problem of 'making sure the king stays dead') and that at a minimum substantial advice on handling PC death and whether it should occur should be given in PFRPG.

Liberty's Edge

Charles Evans 25 wrote:
Looking at a picture which seems to me to be beyond the specific scope of this thread, Samuel Weiss has suggested that it be considered whether or not PCs should be subject to risk of death, . . .

That is not really what I said.

And given how far you have to go to give assassins a permanent death ability, I do not see it as beyond the scope of this thread. Specifically, the third point you list demonstrates that it is inextricably linked with the basic issue.


Samuel Weiss wrote:
Charles Evans 25 wrote:
Looking at a picture which seems to me to be beyond the specific scope of this thread, Samuel Weiss has suggested that it be considered whether or not PCs should be subject to risk of death, . . .

That is not really what I said.

And given how far you have to go to give assassins a permanent death ability, I do not see it as beyond the scope of this thread. Specifically, the third point you list demonstrates that it is inextricably linked with the basic issue.
Samuel Weiss wrote:
First and foremost in that revision should be the concept that heroes do not die. Seriously. The theme of Pathfinder is based on pulps, right? Well, other than the movie, I do not recall Conan ever dying. John Carter sort of died, but that was just so he could switch to a body on Barsoom. At best you get Elric dying, but then those books were about the sword anyway, and it came out fine.

(edited)

Correction, you are suggesting that PC's should never die; apologies for presenting your position as being less absolute than it actually is.

Further Edit:
I have posted a thread in the general discussion forum for further discussion of this idea: *link*


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

This class should have a "and stay dead" type ability.

How about an ability that forces a pretty high level check to raise someone killed by an assassin with this ability?

I could get behind a trap the soul type effect too, but I am open to other options.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

I don't think this would be necessary. Majuba has provided us with all kinds of mundane ways you can mutilate a body to prevent casters from either speaking with the corpse or resurrecting the target. You'd also be stepping on the toes of the Red Mantis Assassin and would have to up the ante on their abilities accordingly.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

The Red Mantis would not need to be updated. They already have an anti-resurrection ability: They will find you and kill you again.


Ross Byers wrote:
The Red Mantis would not need to be updated. They already have an anti-resurrection ability: They will find you and kill you again.

If I were going to hire an Assassin, I'd rather hire one that can prevent the target from being resurrected as opposed to one that will have to go back and murder the target again at a later date. The Red Mantis already have a mystical angle to them - I think these abilities would jive better with the that Prestige Class then the Assassin Prestige Class, which is more like a "super-rogue" then anything else (which I think is perfectly fine).

But then again, if you use Majuba's fine tactics for disposing of bodies, it all becomes kind of a moot point. Just be sure to carry a cleaver at all times! LOL


Jason Bulmahn wrote:
An ability that prevents raise dead at low levels, and scales up to prevent up to Resurrection (but True Res will always work). In addition, this ability could prevent Speak with Dead at a certain level.

For the resurrection-blocker, I'd be tempted to borrow the word "inert" from the clone spell*, as a bit of terminological unity.

Something like, "the victim's physical remains become inert and cannot thereafter be restored to life", paralleling clone's "The original’s physical remains, should it still exist, become inert and cannot thereafter be restored to life."


While there are a lot of ways to prevent a raise dead from working that aren't that hard to figure out, I think as a matter of profession, perhaps at a given level, its automatically part of the assassin's death attack ability to foil a raise dead, and then at higher levels, the assassin could get the ability to foil resurrections.

As others have said, there should be a reason that hiring a PrC assassin is preferable to hiring a run of the mill rogue to do the same job.

Scarab Sages

Surely, the non-magical assassin IS the Rogue? That's what Sneak Attack is for.

Death Attack is a nice extra roll to force your quarry to take, but the problem has always been setting the DC at a level that isn't an auto-fail for some, or an auto-pass for others. As is, the classes with the good Fort saves tend to be the ones with good flat-footed AC and good Hit Dice (and vice-versa). Anyone capable of failing the Death Attack save on anything other than a natural 1, is probably going to be eviscerated anyway, by a surprise round Sneak Attack followed by a flurry of hasted, two-weapon, poisoned, opposite-aligned, bane, Sneak Attacks. If they're still standing after a round, then they probably had the levels and the Con to treat the Death Attack as an irrelevance.

The only reasons for there being a PrC in the past, were the spells, and to bypass the usual multiclass restrictions for someone wanting to play a Rogue/X, with uneven levels.

"Well, yeah, I'm effectively a multi-classed Rogue, with high Sneak Attack, but I'm not paying any multi-class XP penalty, because PrClasses don't count...".

Now that multiclass penalties have disappeared, and the Assassin is non-magical, I fail to see the need for the class, or what it gains that couldn't be replicated by levels of Rogue, and maybe a couple of new entries in the Rogue Talent list.

Scarab Sages

Should Poison Use be a feat/class ability?

Or a natural use of the Craft(Poison)/(Alchemy) skill?

Someone with a high skill level should surely be aware of the risks, and be able to navigate their lab with practiced ease.

A beginner may make elementary mistakes, not realise which are the inert ingredients, or the active ingredients, not follow safe sterile procedures, knock over a retort, or otherwise make a hash of things and infect themselves.

If the chance of self-harm is defined as failing the Craft DC by some number (5?, 10?), then a prospective poisoner is unlikely to succumb, when creating any poison for which they have sufficient skill to make in the first place.

---------------Inspired rule proposal ahead-------------------------

Instead, how about requesting two skill checks; one for the difficulty of making an effective poison, and a second for the safety aspect?

Fail both, and you have an accident, but it's less serious. Stab yourself on a blade, burn yourself on your stove, lose a few hp, but no chance of infection.

Fail the first, but succeed the second; you safely make a worthless paste.

Succeed the first, but fail the second; GAAAAAHHH! Get the antidote!

Succeed at both; Hooray! Success!

The beauty of this, is that, like the new disease rules (with their individualised onset and repeat times), different DCs can be set for both aspects of the poison-making process, allowing the prospective poisoner to make an educated gamble of how much risk they are willing to take, and reflecting the lethality of some substances, and/or the ease of working with them.

One formula may be very safe to create (stick the ingredients in a barrel and leave to ferment=low Safety DC), but be incredibly difficult to perfect (the knack is in knowing exactly how long to leave it=high Craft DC). The creator could have dozens of batches on the go, to ensure one brews as desired, but be in little danger of harming himself.

Another formula may involve some virulent ingredient, with insidious vapours, like the radioactive, mutating Warpstone, from the Warhammer setting. It is practically guaranteed that anything made from this will be deadly (low Craft DC), but working with it is taking your own life in your hands (high Safety DC).


Personally I do not like the idea of giving Assassin some abilities that people here propose.
Someone that will hire an assassin needs a quiet, non-traceable person that will leave everyone stunned as to what happened.
I would propose to give assassin abilities that protect him from scrying and magical detection rather then letting him steal the soul or whatever crap. It just does not fit the idea of the assassin.
His job is to kill his target, not make sure the target stays dead because of other people actions. That is a logistical problem the contractor has to worry about.
He could hire the assassin to make sure the target cannot be raised but that is a special request that costs extra and will be a whole quest for the assassin character to procure needed items for it.

And if the contractor just wants the target dead for all eternity, he can always hire a wizard for the job, preferably a necromancer :D


What could be done is simply impose a penalty on checks revolving around the dead individual:

Death Dealer: Starting at 2nd level, the Assassin's methods become more difficult to diagnose and counter. Anyone that an assassin attacks with their death attack has a -1 to any saving throws and skill checks surrounding it (such as a Fortitude save to avoid the effects of a poison or a Heal check to determine cause of death). Additionally, any attempt to magically treat (if the target survived) or raise (if dead) the Assassin's target must make a caster level check as if they were trying to Dispel Magic, with a difficulty equal to the Assassin's character level. A spellcaster who succeeds at this caster level check does not need to make another check on victims of that particular Assassin for 24 hours.

The first part may be a bit lax, but I'm just throwing this out there.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

(I have not read the whole thread, and am probably late to the party. I'm lazy and sleepy. Sue me.)

I'm in favor of a mostly or completely non-magical ability to Keep the Damn Target Dead. (The assassin's spells didn't bother me as much as the ranger's do, but I still like that it's become a purely physical prestige class. I just created a ftr3/rog6/asn4 NPC for my Pathfinder Eberron game.)

How about:

Death's Clutch (Ex): During his esoteric studies of death, the assassin has learned a quick, but complex, ritual to interfere with attempts to return a target to life. If the assassin spends a full round adjacent to a creature that has died within 1 round, performing this ritual (which provokes Attacks of Opportunity), any attempt to return the target to life requires a CL check with a DC equal to 10 plus the assassin's class level.

Dunno what level the ability should be granted at. My thought is at least 6th. The DC might not be high enough. If not, just say the CL check has to beat the DC of the assassin's death attack.

(I don't like the Trap the Soul thing. If the assassin has spell-like powers, why take away his spells? Also, why interfere with Speak with Dead? Isn't the whole point that the target doesn't see the assassin? Finally, note that my version of the ability works on any just-died corpse, which I like. Among other things, gives an assassin reason to occasionally work well with others.)

Liberty's Edge

Jeff Wilder wrote:
Also, why interfere with Speak with Dead? Isn't the whole point that the target doesn't see the assassin?

Because there are times when things go wrong and the assassin is seen. Also, there's always the option of faking a suicide or accident, which is kind of ruined by:

"Why did you kill yourself?"
"I didn't; some dude stabbed me."

EDIT: Sorry, that post was a little snarky; just trying to point out the reasoning behind the ability interfering with Speak With Dead.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Not to mention it defeats the whole point of killing someone to keep them quiet.

Liberty's Edge

Ross Byers wrote:
Not to mention it defeats the whole point of killing someone to keep them quiet.

remember not everyone is able to get magic like that... but i do agree that an assassin should have a way to silence the dead... but soemthing like an assassin's ability? mmm i would like it more something like an spell for the assassin


Why not reanimate the victim as an undead creature? Resurrection and True Ress can raise the dead if the victim has been turned into and undead creature and then destroyed. But what happens if the undead creature isn't destroyed? If you're paying for an assassination and you are concerned with the person coming back to life, pay a little extra for the animate dead scroll. The assassin animates the target and buries him in a tomb somewhere. Or put the undead in a bag of holding and puncture the bag.
It requires a bit of creativity on the players part, but you can defeat those high level spells.


Keepiru wrote:

"Why not reanimate the victim as an undead creature? Resurrection and True Ress can raise the dead if the victim has been turned into and undead creature and then destroyed. But what happens if the undead creature isn't destroyed? If you're paying for an assassination and you are concerned with the person coming back to life, pay a little extra for the animate dead scroll. The assassin animates the target and buries him in a tomb somewhere. Or put the undead in a bag of holding and puncture the bag.
It requires a bit of creativity on the players part, but you can defeat those high level spells"

It does require creativity on the player's part, but I don't know of many rogues / assassins that would have the knowledge ranks necessary to know the intricacies of how true resurrection works and how to circumvent it... That puts players in the position of playing out of character and using out of character knowledge. The simplist fix would be to require the assassin have "X" number of ranks in knowledge arcana so that the assassin would know better...
But to be more realistic, an assassin shouldn't have to study knowledge arcana for weeks and months on end to know whether they're going to be able to do their job properly or not. Making a "stay dead" class feature makes sense and goes a long ways to making the assassin class one worth playing.


Lord Starmight wrote:

It does require creativity on the player's part, but I don't know of many rogues / assassins that would have the knowledge ranks necessary to know the intricacies of how true resurrection works and how to circumvent it... That puts players in the position of playing out of character and using out of character knowledge. The simplist fix would be to require the assassin have "X" number of ranks in knowledge arcana so that the assassin would know better...

But to be more realistic, an assassin shouldn't have to study knowledge arcana for weeks and months on end to know whether they're going to be able to do their job properly or not. Making a "stay dead" class feature makes sense and goes a long ways to making the assassin class one worth playing.

Yes, as long as this "and stay dead" ability is not supernatural or spell-like in nature, nor based on some occult ritual concept. Otherwise we're stuck with the same conundrum; an assassin shouldn't have to study knowledge arcana for weeks and months on end to know whether they're going to be able to do their job properly or not. Unless we make it a magical-savvy assassin, which is a step away from Jason's reiteration of the assassin.

The shard in the heart vs. healing check idea seemed like the only sensible extraordinary effect proposed so far. But then again, if a character is influential enough to have raise dead/resurrection back-ups, he'd also have a decent healer in his retinue as well, so I'm not sure if this solves anything in the end.

'findel

Scarab Sages

The 'shard in the heart' tactic would foil a Raise, but in the case of anyone as influential as a ruler, the clergy would simply use a lock of his hair, and Resurrect him, which grows a whole new healthy body.

And once one person had succumbed to the 'shard' effect, the word would get round, and they would simply carry out Resurrection as the default plan, bypassing the Raise attempt entirely.

It's no longer realistic to assume there are insufficient clerics of high enough level to perform such spells. It was believable in 1st/2nd Edition, when levelling was slower, but 3rd Edition smashed that assumption, giving players the chance to raise epic-level PCs who were still too young to shave.

What is needed is a 1st Edition-style resurrection survival/soul degradation roll, which becomes harder to pass, the more often the soul has been dragged back from the afterlife. This roll should be independent of the clergy's caster level, and difficult, if not impossible, to modify.

This would reduce the number of egregious raisings of the same person over and over, and allow for the in-game possibility of story-based plot hooks, where "We tried to revive the king, but failed", without the players smelling a rat.


Eric Tillemans wrote:
I'd love to see some sort of 'Trap the Soul' capstone ability for assassins. That way an assassin could slay the king and take his soul back to the assassin's employer for safe keeping.

I like this idea. I've always thought of this problem myself, and felt like assassinations were pointless without a Necromancer at your side to get rid of the chance of resurrection.

I, and many other people, are not familiar with the Red Mantis guild, and there are doubtless some others who know of it but do not use it in their worlds. I'd rather it be that all assassins are able to do their job well, rather than have a specific sect of assassins be the only truly effective guild in the land.

Someone mentioned that there's usually a usurper in place for when they kill the king. Sure, but what if the hit's just on someone less important, or in a position that isn't "usurpable" (if I may defile the English language so)? One could argue that resurrection magic isn't an issue there, either, because they're less important, but in cases like an army's general there's a need for that man, once assassinated, to stay dead. Without some preventative force, that army is simply going to spend a few gold, true resurrect their brilliant tactician, and go merrily on their way.

I also don't think picking off every high level cleric within 100 miles should be necessary for a successful hit. It seems a bit tedious to me, and also probably impossible in many circumstances.

And, though funny, I don't think the "our contract didn't mention the resurrection, pay me more to kill him again" thing isn't great in a game, but that's personal preference.

Dark Archive

Laurefindel wrote:

The shard in the heart vs. healing check idea seemed like the only sensible extraordinary effect proposed so far. But then again, if a character is influential enough to have raise dead/resurrection back-ups, he'd also have a decent healer in his retinue as well, so I'm not sure if this solves anything in the end.

Any assassin worth the gold he's getting paid should carry a small clay pot of green slime in his pack. Kill target, and then have the green slime turn the entire corpse into yet more green slime.

And then set the green slime on fire, just to cover your tracks...

If that particular game world doesn't have green slime as a hazard, perhaps some other ooze, slime or vermin can transform a corpse into rot grub poop in a very short time.

And if none of those options are available, a special material like thinaun (metal from the lower planes that absorbs the soul of anyone who dies in contact with it) or an alchemical 'alkehest' acid that utterly destroys a corpse could be introduced to the game.

The *class* doesn't require a special power to handle corpse disposal when the rules already provide multiple options, and room to create many more (such as the aforementioned alchemical super-acid or a special variation on alchemical fire that burns super-hot and can cremate a body, but doesn't work on living material, making it useless as a weapon).

Stuff is already available in the game. The Assassin class doesn't need special powers to save their users from thinking.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

This may not be terribly popular, but I've made it so that in my campaign only certain deities grant their followers the ability to raise/resurrect the dead. In many cases these deities might either 1) not be common in the area the players are playing, or 2) might be unsavory in general. I realize that this thread isn't so much about players having access to raise/resurrect and is more about NPC's being able to raise the dead, but it would apply in those cases as well. For example, in my world I have a goddess of the dead/night/magic etc and while her priestesses have the ABILITY to raise the dead, it is virtually unheard of because of the traditions of their faith. It could certainly be done, but only in the most extreme circumstances, and just giving the temple a 25k diamond isn't sufficient, as its not really about money. In other cases the PC's (or even NPC's) would have to travel to the other side of the world to find a foreign culture where raising the dead is not so socially abhorrent. The PC (or NPC) would then have to convince the local tribal shaman of the reasoning to restore life to the fallen one, and that may or may not be a simple matter (depending on many factors). I guess I'm just saying that the issue of ready access to raise dead can be handled via the campaign and DMs handling of the worlds religions and cultures.


I found a lot of 'hire the red mantis to do it' in this thread.

Has everyone forgotten?

The mantis don't do regicide. Its the king this thread wants to keep dead!

My suggestion? If you want to keep a king dead you don't send an assasin in. You send a wizard with a valuable gem and a certain 8th level spell at the ready.

Then you store that gem someplace safe or sell it to the baatezu. Assasins are fine.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Sorry to cross-post but I see this thread seems to be discussing the same subject. What do people think about this? It seems cleaner than having a ton of different feats and gives many different effects in a smaller package.

Critical Strike 1 [General Feat]

Spoiler:

Benefit: Whenever you confirm a critical on an attack roll you can either deal extra damage as normal, or cause the target to suffer one of the following effects:

* Dazed for 1 round
* Dazzled for 1d3 rounds
* Confused for 1 round
* Fatigued for 1d4 rounds
* Knocked Back 5' per 10 full points of damage (roll normally)
* Knocked Down/Prone
* Nauseated for 1d10 minutes

Critical Strike 2 [General Feat]

Spoiler:

Prerequisite: Critical Strike 1
Benefit: Whenever you confirm a critical on an attack roll you can either deal extra damage as normal, or cause the target to suffer one of the following effects:

* 1 point of ability damage (your choice)
* Opponent is Blinded for 1d4 days
* Opponent is Deafened for 1d4 days
* Opponent is exhausted for 1d6 rounds then fatigued for 1d4 rounds
* Opponent is sickened for 1d4 hours

Critical Strike 3 [General Feat]

Spoiler:

Prerequisite: Critical Strike 2
Benefit: Whenever you confirm a critical on an attack roll you can either deal extra damage as normal, or cause the target to suffer one of the following effects:

* Opponent becomes disabled for 1d4 rounds then returns to normal
* Opponent suffers 1 point of ability (your choice) drain
* Opponent is paralyzed 1d4 rounds
* Opponent is stunned for 1d4 rounds

All of these could lead into even deadlier critical strikes (though perhaps not exactly at this strength)...

Critical Strike 4 [General Feat]

Spoiler:

Prerequisite: Critical Strike 2
Benefit: Whenever you confirm a critical on an attack roll you can either deal extra damage as normal, or cause the target to suffer one of the following effects:

* Opponent becomes unconscious for 1d4 rounds then returns to normal
* Opponent begins dying (as per the condition)
* Opponent makes a Fort save DC = to your normal damage roll or Dies

Thoughts?

Dark Archive

jreyst wrote:
Sorry to cross-post but I see this thread seems to be discussing the same subject. What do people think about this? It seems cleaner than having a ton of different feats and gives many different effects in a smaller package.

While it's an interesting set of feats (although I'd prefer for a Fighter to be able to impose conditions like Dazzled and Sickened and Dazed *without* having to wait for a Critical, for it to be a matter of *skill,* not extra things that happen randomly when he's really, really lucky), unless you are intending for there to be a Critical Strike feat that knocks the soul right out of the body and makes the victim un-raisable, this isn't really the thread for it. :)


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Set wrote:
While it's an interesting set of feats ... unless you are intending for there to be a Critical Strike feat that knocks the soul right out of the body and makes the victim un-raisable, this isn't really the thread for it. :)

Hmm. Not sure what lead me to post that here. I had several Firefox tabs open to different threads in the Paizo boards and maybe I thought this thread was a different one and wasn't really paying attention. Well then... in the immortal words of Emily Litella, "Never mind." :)


Perhaps a reverse of the Gentle Repose spell called Rot Corpse added to the assassin's spell list? It could be a low-level spell that causes an inanimate corpse to turn into a festering pile of goo or some other substance in a short bit of time (perhaps the process is faster as the assassin levels - hours at 1st level, less than a minute at 10th?).

Added on top of that, a class ability at some level that that counters spells like Speak with Dead and another ability that prevents ressurection?

They don't have to be spelled out explicitly, but could use any number of methods, simply assuming the assassin has the expertise and equipment on hand to prevent reviving the dead. It could represent dumping a canister of flesh-devouring beetles on the body to pouring black dragon acid on the corpse to beheading it to using an ancient ritual known only to assassins that captures a portion of the victim's soul to prevent bringing the victim back to life. Leave the fluff details of how it works up the imagination of the players and DM, and just give us the mechanics of how it works.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

What about an ability that ages the target to its natural old-age death?

Assassins may enchant pure jet or onyx stones that, when shattered within 5' of a creature with the "dying" condition, causes that creature to magically advance in age to its natural old-age death point. The stone and ritual (or process) requires at least 25,000gp in supplies. This cost is always passed on to the customer though and so is done only very rarely, when the buyer really wants to make sure the target does not return.

I dunno, just an idea lol


jreyst wrote:

What about an ability that ages the target to its natural old-age death?

Assassins may enchant pure jet or onyx stones that, when shattered within 5' of a creature with the "dying" condition, causes that creature to magically advance in age to its natural old-age death point. The stone and ritual (or process) requires at least 25,000gp in supplies. This cost is always passed on to the customer though and so is done only very rarely, when the buyer really wants to make sure the target does not return.

I dunno, just an idea lol

There are a lot of good ideas based on the assumption that the assassin is:

1) a practitioner of magic (i.e. can cast spells)
2) a an individual that is knowledgeable in the occult (get incantation-like rituals or supernatural abilities)

Now, I may be wrong in my assumption, but since the new iteration of the assassin is a non-spellcasting class with no supernatural abilities, I thought that Jason's goal was to create a more "mundane" assassin class.

While I agree that the assassin needs a little more than a watered-down version of the rogue's master strike, I'd personally go with new abilities that are "assassin-like", such as a mechanic to kill silently, or without being seen, or put yourself in a position to achieve all of the above (such as holding your breath underwater for a longer time, staying motionless for hours etc).

However, the need to keep someone dead is, very sadly, an issue in the present system. While I understand the bilateral dynamics of the 3rd edition where "what is available to players is also available to villains and everybody else", I find it sad that a spell that is there to help players have fun (because its not always fun to meet final death) becomes a potentially game-breaking narrative issue.

In this light, it seems to me that the issue is related to the raise dead/resurrection/true resurrection spells rather than the inability of the assassin to circumvent those spells.

that of course, is my personal take on the matter...

'findel

Dark Archive

Laurefindel wrote:

There are a lot of good ideas based on the assumption that the assassin is:

1) a practitioner of magic (i.e. can cast spells)
2) a an individual that is knowledgeable in the occult (get incantation-like rituals or supernatural abilities)

Yeah, 'de-magicking' the Assassin and then adding a Trap the Soul feature does seem like one step forward, two steps back.

Hence my fondness for Green Slime. No magic required.

Laurefindel wrote:

However, the need to keep someone dead is, very sadly, an issue in the present system. While I understand the bilateral dynamics of the 3rd edition where "what is available to players is also available to villains and everybody else", I find it sad that a spell that is there to help players have fun (because its not always fun to meet final death) becomes a potentially game-breaking narrative issue.

In this light, it seems to me that the issue is related to the raise dead/resurrection/true resurrection spells rather than the inability of the assassin to circumvent those spells.

Agreed. Limiting ressurection magic to either spells usable within X rounds of death, or convoluted rituals usable only under certain special conditions, would completely change the dynamic of how ressurection magic affects players vs. the game-world.

Using Action Points (or a similar mechanic, such as Mutants & Masterminds Hero Points) would help to decrease the chance of 'accidental death,' which is, IMO, what ressurection magic is most 'needed' for, to prevent a bad die roll from ruining a dramatic shared storyline and / or people's play experience.

A combination of small rules changes could tweak this pretty nicely.

1) Non-magical assassins carry green slime, or some alchemical firepaste made from delver acid and thoqqua blood, or *whatEVER* to get rid of bodies. Killing the King in the middle of the day, surrounded by his courtiers (and guards, and high prelate, and court wizard) is dumb. Make them find the bubbling ooze that used to be his corpse in the morning, hours after you killed him! (And, just to be mean, take the slime-that-used-to-be-the-king home and leave behind slime-that-used-to-be-the-corpse-of-Dread-Demon-Lich-Emperor-McNasty, so that if they *do* try to Wish it back to life, they have real trouble on their hands...)

2) Raise Dead and Ressurection spells function within rounds / level or (gasp!) minutes / level of death.

3) Raising someone who has been dead *longer* from the dead requires McGuffin Incantations, special quested-for components, a conjunction of the six invisible moons and the blessing of the goddess of sorrow, who must be tickled with a half-gold dragon phoenix feather to get her to stop crying long enough to give it.

4) Action points help ensure that PCs don't die 'empty deaths' quite as frequently, to soften the blow of ressurection magic not being as readily available. Characters will still die, when they've blown all their Action Points, but generally won't die as 'cheaply' as they do when the 8th level character blows a save vs. Ghoul paralyzation and gets his face eaten on round two...

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