I like the idea, except: would it make the monk's ordinary attacks pointless? In other words, would the monk ever have any reason to perform a normal attack/flurry of blows instead of a combat maneuver?
Sure; it's just that a flurry is how he'd clear out mooks, instead of what he uses against a major opponent. Against tough opponents, he uses big, fancy combat maneuvers.
How about giving the Monk bluff as a class skill, which would then allow them to use feint as a combat maneuver? Then instead of giving them a bonus feat @ 2nd level they are given improved feint. This would allow them to have one attack @ their full BAB or give them their flurry of blows @ their negative attack. Then @ either 6th level or 10th level remove another bonus feat and give them greater feint (explain later) which would also improve their ability to attack.
Greater Feint- (this would be special class ability for the Monk) Benefit: You can make a bluff check to feint as a free action.
With this special ability, some may think that while using flurry of blows this may make the character to strong, and if that is the case, I would recommend keeping the -2 to attack when using flurry of blows for overall balance.
Sure; it's just that a flurry is how he'd clear out mooks, instead of what he uses against a major opponent. Against tough opponents, he uses big, fancy combat maneuvers.
If Epic Meepo's CMB idea doesn't make the monk's basic attacks pointless, then I'm in favor of the idea.
Question: Can you perform combat maneuvers while at the same time using flurry of blows? I'm assuming yes, but just want to verify.
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I believe you can do multiple CMB's per turn with multiple attacks dependant on the CMB, trip, disarm and sunder, the others all have a movement component anyway so you wouldn't be getting multiple attacks move your attacking at the same time as getting into position around or through an obstacle.
Seems like quite an elegant little solution.
I am going to be looking My suggestion for a fix that leaves BAB intact is to append the following text to maneuver training: "In addition, whenever the monk successfully performs a combat maneuver, he may choose to deal damage as though he had hit his target with an unarmed strike attack."
That one small change makes a world of difference: the monk's medium BAB is no longer holding him back; he can just damage opponents by performing combat maneuvers, which ignore AC. This makes his attacks more likely to hit; gives him a reasonable, more reliable damage output; and even gives him a clear party role (combat maneuver guy, since he has little reason not to perform combat maneuvers at every available opportunity).
As an added bonus, the proposed change allows monks to perform classic wuxia-type stunts that resemble combat maneuvers, but sound as though they should also inflict some sort of damage: bull rushing by kicking the opponent in the chest; disarming by violently twisting an arm; overrunning by climbing someone like a ladder, kicking off on their face to jump clear to the other side; tripping by smashing a kneecap with a powerful kick; etc.
All benefits of adding that one single sentence to the maneuver training ability.
Meepo's suggestion is a very good one. At face value, I love it, and it carves for the monk a niche that I believe is desperately needed. I have always wanted a maneuvers specialist.
But this has an enormous risk of attracting class dipping. A primary class fighter with this ability (gained through a single level of Monk, perhaps?) would be far better at it than the Monk, which clearly defeats the point of the idea.
It is an excellent start, but I think we want to be very careful about precisely how it works or obtained to prevent abuse.
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I too do not see a need for monks to have full BAB. Better CMB yes, full BAB no.But the Maneuver Training ability he gets at 3rd level already lets him use his class level instead of his BAB for calculating his CMB. Or do you mean a bonus on top of that?
It needs to be on top of that, Ooh the monk treats his class level as his CMB bonus instead of BAB, great, that makes him as good at doing CMBs as any other full BAB class. How lame is that, I have a class feature to make me like everyone else who would want to do this, but they can actually hit with their weapons.
And god forbid anyone ever take defensive combat training, thus rendering them practically immune to CMBs
But this has an enormous risk of attracting class dipping. A primary class fighter with this ability (gained through a single level of Monk, perhaps?) would be far better at it than the Monk, which clearly defeats the point of the idea. It is an excellent start, but I think we want to be very careful about precisely how it works or obtained to prevent abuse.
Because it would only be unarmed strike damage, a fighter could dip (and deal 1d6), or you could stay a monk and deal up to 2d10. That's a fairly large discrepancy, and I'm willing to have one or two monk/fighters around, if need be.
I am concerned regarding LKL's points, however. The insane ease with which combat maneuvers are avoided in the Beta means that this really isn't going to help the monk unless the resist maneuver DC is dropped to like 11 + CMB instead of 15 + CMB.
I too do not see a need for monks to have full BAB. Better CMB yes, full BAB no.But the Maneuver Training ability he gets at 3rd level already lets him use his class level instead of his BAB for calculating his CMB. Or do you mean a bonus on top of that?It needs to be on top of that, Ooh the monk treats his class level as his CMB bonus instead of BAB, great, that makes him as good at doing CMBs as any other full BAB class. How lame is that, I have a class feature to make me like everyone else who would want to do this, but they can actually hit with their weapons.
And god forbid anyone ever take defensive combat training, thus rendering them practically immune to CMBs
yes on top of that, 2 or 3 seem to be good in the tests we have run
Would the "Monster Special Attacks" be a good place to look? Let's see: Improved grab (bear), Trip (wolf), Constrict (snake), Knock-Back/Trample (Bull), Ponce (tiger), Rake (gorilla). And to a more esoterical degree: Blindsense, Blindsight and Tremor-sense.
All very thematic of the monk achetypes and very different from the fighter's approch to combat and they all already exist. The monk is alredy dipping in the monster stats with Improved Natural Attack so why not? Maybe Ki options for boosting a chosen feat.
Would the "Monster Special Attacks" be a good place to look? Let's see: Improved grab (bear), Trip (wolf), Constrict (snake), Knock-Back/Trample (Bull), Ponce (tiger), Rake (gorilla). And to a more esoterical degree: Blindsense, Blindsight and Tremor-sense.
There are some very cool ideas here. And the beauty is, they could be made into alternative ki powers, or just made into feats with prerequisite: combat maneuver training. For example, of the top of my head:
Bear's Paw [Combat]
Prerequisite: Combat maneuver training; or Improved Grapple, Power Attack, and BAB +6
Benefit: When you successfully strike an opponent in melee with an unarmed strike or light weapon, you can elect to drop your weapon (if any) in order to make an immediate grapple attempt as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.
Wolf's Trip [Combat]
Prerequisite: Combat maneuver training; or Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and BAB +6
Benefit: When you successfully strike an opponent in melee with an unarmed strike, monk weapon, or weapon described as being used for tripping, you may make an immediate trip attempt as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.
The split prereqs mean that monks could get them easily, or fighters could get them, but with a larger investment required.
Also, maneuver training is a 4th level ability, so you need at least four monk levels to do it. (Incidentally, someone else proposed dropping the -2 penalty from flurry of blows to make it more effective at low levels. Since my monk improvement doesn't kick in until 4th level, it might be worth considering making that change - or some other 1st-level tweak - in addition to mine. Then monks become more effective at all levels. Plus you get some added flavor: monks begin their martial arts training with basic attacks, then graduate to more complex maneuvers as they gain experience.)... Well, I'm operating under the assumption that the math behind combat maneuvers will get thoroughly tested and balanced in the combat design forum. If we decide to give the monk the "combat maneuver guy" role now, obviously, we'll have to make sure that the combat maneuver mechanics are perfect when the combat design forum opens up.
That answers all my questions, Meepo. Consider me sold on the issue. In fact, I'll even adopt this at once for my "variant monk" project and drop him back to d8 HD and 3/4 BAB.
Count me in on supporting Epic Meepo's idea as well. Sounds cool!
Seeing as the Fighter has been given special abilities that define it's class beyond the full BAB (and Barbarians, Rangers and Paladins have a full BAB with their assorted special abilities), Monks should have a full BAB as they are a front line combatants like the other stated classes. They all approach combat in different ways, but they are all heavy combatants nonetheless.
If there needs to be a compromise, give the Monk a full BAB on unarmed combat and a 3/4 BAB on combat with weapons. At first level and every five levels the Monk can add a special monk weapon to his unarmed style. In game terms, this would allow him to use the full BAB with this selected weapon(s).
I would say to fix the monk:
1. Get rid of the penalty to flurry of blows.
2. Use meepo's excellent suggestion.
3. At level 5 let them get in 1 extra attack as part of a standard action.
4. Build in some mechanism where some of the unarmed damage gets put on monk weapons too.
5. Give some means for a monk to enhance his unarmed strike other than the cruddy amulet of mighty fist.
Technically, there is one. It just happens to be in the Savage Species book (that wonderfully editted book). I think it's called the Necklace of Natural Attacks (which the Monk's unarmed strike qualifies as).
Now, this is a 3.0 book, but I don't think it's unreasonable to put in a "lesser" version of the Amulet of Mighty Blows that only works on unarmed strikes (since the Amulet of Mighty Blows is priced higher to account for all the extra kinds of natural weapons that the user has, unless he's a Monk in which case he's paying more money for absolutely no benefit).
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I like Meepo's idea, very simple and effective.
Before I get into my oppinion, let me first say I'm currently playing a seventh level Monk. Also, I'm probably going to reiterate what some have said, but these things bear repeating.
I disagree with those who suggest dropping the initial penalty on Flurry of Blows. The idea behind that penalty at the early levels is so your choice between performing a Flurry or not isn't a no brainer. If you could Flurry without penalty at third level(for example), why wouldn't you? What would be the incentive to not? Its a tradeoff. This represents the concept that you're not that "Kung Fu Master" yet, but you're on the way to becoming one.
Add to this that the Flurry at high levels adds two attacks on top of what your BAB grants you, giving a Monk a 1/Level BAB means that he gets SIX attacks per round instead of five. The Monk is already breaking the "Four Attacks per Round" rule with the Flurry as it currently stands(Yes, I realize that in many ways the d20 rules are mostly a set of exemptions :P). Now, while its just one more attack, these can stack up.
An alternative to upping the BAB would be to grant a +1 Competency Bonus to attack rolls every fourth level, which would be +5 at 20th level and equal the fighter's BAB. This way, it adds to the chance to hit, without ultimately granting an additional attack.
I think Meepo's a genius and if his suggestion is taken up by the Paizo gang he should get some sort of credit in the final version. Right on man.
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I love Epic Meepo's idea! Combat maneuvers that deal damage seem a logical compromise. I would also argue that an exception should be added that all combat maneuvers (including overrun, bull rush, etc...) can be made as a part of a full/attack or flurry of blows.
That way, even against a high AC opponent you have a good chance of hitting once, and can still take the lower percentage shots to perhaps pad your totals.
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besides my natural disdain for the non-traditional fantasy class (my monks are clerics that study at monasteries, with big bald spots) Epic Meepo has a good suggestion, thumbs up.
now what about a penetrating strike option, spend a ki point and all enemy armor classes are reduced by 1 ,+1 per 5 levels for the round. you could spend on the extra flurry for a multitude of tiny mooks, and spend this on the big bad bosses.
this all being said, lets not burn all the cool ideas on the class that can stealth, actually make saves, evade, notice things, slow fall, etc. when the Fighter has EXPERTISE (I need to see some real magic to make the fighter fun in combat, once again stating FUN, not damage dealing. I think there damage is okay now, full attack on charge please?)
I disagree with those who suggest dropping the initial penalty on Flurry of Blows. The idea behind that penalty at the early levels is so your choice between performing a Flurry or not isn't a no brainer. If you could Flurry without penalty at third level(for example), why wouldn't you? What would be the incentive to not? Its a tradeoff. This represents the concept that you're not that "Kung Fu Master" yet, but you're on the way to becoming one.
Similarly, we could give a 1st level wizard a 50% chance of spell failure that decreases by 5% every level. That would also be a penalty that removes the "no-brainer" choice of spellcasting for a wizard; if a wizard could cast spells without penalty at third level (for example), why wouldn't he? A spell failure chance would represent the concept that he's not an "Archmage" yet, but he's on the way to becoming one.
(Long story short -- I prefer to not have arbitrary penalties that go away over time. If I thought that a flurry of blows without the -2 penalty was an overpowered ability for a level 1 character, that'd be a different story. I don't think it is, though.)
I don't think that the -2 flurry penalty is particularly arbitrary; I see it as the TWF penalty which happens to lessen over time due to the monk's exclusive focus on his fighting style.
Instead of bumping their BAB, why not have their ki pool apply actual enhancement bonuses to their unarmed attacks as they progress in level (say, +1 per 4 class levels or so)? This would address their poor hit probabilities, but eliminate the 6-attack flurry, and would allow them to occasionally have items other than the "required" amulet of mighty fists. Also, because in Pathfinder, +N weapons defeat DR/scaling, this would supercede the "ki strike: magic" and "ki strike: aligned" stuff without adding text.
I vote "Yes" for Eric Meepo.
That is a Monk change I can believe in.
Count me in for supporting the "Combat Maneuver + damage option". It doesn't detract at all from the 'feel' of the monk, and most definitely adds some versatility to a class that had to be played very wisely to make it work well.
I'm waiting to see what else comes with these revisions. I like the monk class... probably to a fault. Swords? Magic? Anger? Pshaw! The proper application of insight gained from knowledge can defeat anything.
Meepo has my vote as well! Absolutly brilliant!
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An idea that this discussion has spawned has come to me as of late. What if there were a Feat that allowed people with Stunning Fist to focus multiple daily uses(let's say three, or perhaps, 3 points from the Monk's Ki Pool) of it into granting the character's unarmed attack 1d4+Wis Mod points of energy damage(energy type chosen at usage) for 1d4+Wis Mod rounds.
This would allow any character with Stunning Fist to do it, while leaving the Monk more capable of it.
Hey there all,
I am going to be spending some time looking deeply into some of the math behind the monk. Specifically, I am going to be looking for solutions that do not raise the monk up to a full BAB. This will not be happening.
I am open to thoughts on how to make them work without this change. Let me hear them.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Flurry of blows, in my opinion, works pretty well as it is. It works out a little bit like a jackie chan film where she spends a minite trading super fast blows with an opisite number, with each landing some hits, but also blocking each other.
However, i think that the other end of the spectrum, the single perfect blow, has been lost, unfortunately the low BaB means that single attack is also relatively less likely to hit. However, the monk has access to a State which goes up as quickly, and can i beleive end up better than fighter BaB. CMB.
Add a lowish level class feature, which allows the monk, when making a single attack, such as using stunning fists, to use their CMB instead of their BaB. Perhapes adding a tack on, which gives which ever feat or feature they are using a boost when they do this.
That way, you can have the crazy old monk pluck out the eye of an enemy as well as have him spamming attacks.
Can't really add anything more to the discussion at hand, but the following may be of interest to those who wish to see monks with full BABs...
1. The Warlords of the Accordlands ogl rules did list their monks as having full BABs.
2. The Dungeon Compendium has the Battle Dancer class which is a monkish unarmed dancer with full BABs.
3. Midnight's "monk-type unarmed" class (forgot the name) also has full BABs.
4. In the D20 Freeport Companion, the Survivor class is a "monk-type unarmed" class with full BABs.
Eric Meepo's idea is fantastic. It embraces the true spirit of the class concept, while being both elegant and easy to implement. Well done, Meepo! If the idea isn't in the final release of the PFRPG, I'll definitely be adding it as a houserule.
Eric Meepo's idea is fantastic. It embraces the true spirit of the class concept, while being both elegant and easy to implement. Well done, Meepo! If the idea isn't in the final release of the PFRPG, I'll definitely be adding it as a houserule.
My problem with this suggestion is that IMO the CMB moves still need a lot of work- currently they are still either too weak or too good.
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Hey there all,
I am going to be spending some time looking deeply into some of the math behind the monk. Specifically, I am going to be looking for solutions that do not raise the monk up to a full BAB. This will not be happening.
I am open to thoughts on how to make them work without this change. Let me hear them.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Perhaps letting the monk choose either flurry of blows or decisive strike(PHB II) at first level would allow for some real flavor other then "I hit him a lot and he falls down, hey look the fighter just did the exact same thing." Versus "I just hit him so hard he either stops moving or falls down dead, what the fighter is still trying to beat the gnoll? HA! Slow poke.."
Give the monk a D12 hit die. I see him being at least as tough and rugged as the barbarian. He also seems to be the "lawful" counterpart (disciplined) to the barbarian's chaotic fury (wild). Hasn't he spent his life learning to use his body as a weapon? I would think that the Monk's rigorous conditioning regimen would rival or exceed the barbarian's hardy outdoor living. And on top of that he doesn't even use armor. Don't you think he'd be pretty tough? Since the monk character has to deal with MAD he doesn't have lots of points to spare for Con, creating a low hp combat character... huh? Wherefore the d8 hd then? Give him at least a d10.
S.w BAB is now linked with HD, raising one would raise the other.
Exactly. Monks need to be both full BAB and d10/d12 HD, unless their abilities are going to competely overhauled. If basic save progressions for PrCs and HD for most classes can change, why monk's HD and BAB can't?
As about CMB+damage idea. This is not useful past the first couple of levels. CMBs, as was said many, many times, have prohibitively low chances of success. Even with Maneuver Training. Unless you fight high-AC/low-CMB opponents, which become progressively rare and eventually nonexistent, as levels go up, you have much better chances to hit with a normal attack. Moreover, both monk's unarmed damage and effects of combat maneuvers are not great. Paying for a chance to combine two weak effects of attack with lesser probability of actually connecting with that attack most of the time = failed class fix. Until and unless DC of CMBs is reduced to 10+enemy's CMB it isn't even worth talking about. Even then, it only provides a situationally useful option, which is good, but does not fix the monk at higher levels. Partially because CMB of high-CR monsters scales somewhat faster than their AC, so you still must sacrifice some of your chances to hit.
My suggestions (again, assuming no total rewrite of abilities):
- d12 HD
- Either full BAB or flurry of blows at no penalty. Honestly, considering, that without dredging the supplements there is no way to make monk's attack inflict enough damage to matter at high levels, they can have both. At 20th level, they still will be only slightly ahead of TWFing meleer in BAB, with +20/+20/+20/+15/+5 against +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3 - except that TWF a)get better and cheaper magical enhancements to their attacks (Amulets of Mighty Fists are ungodly expensive, and even making them cheaper won't change the fact, that any smart TWFer buys a +1 weapons with tons of special properties, and then have GMW cast on it when going into dungeons, while a monk cannot do such trick) b)can make his attacks actually matter, through above mentioned special properties, feats and ability to put higher score at Strength.
- CMB+doing damage won't hurt, anyway.
- Monk's class bonus to AC must improve by at least +1 every two levels, starting from second level. Note, that it is a very conservative proposal, that still leaves monks vulnerable at the start (parially to make level dipping less attractive). They still are going to be hit often. This just makes their monk AC gains (Wiz to AC + class) someting that can be reasonably compared with benefits of wearing armor, instead of a sadistic joke they are now.
- Slow fall any distance at 4th level. Really, stretching it to 20th is like adding insult to injury.
- Purity of body and diamond body must be given at about 3rd and 5th level to have some chance of making any difference. Diseases are a joke in 3E. And poisons are close to being one after the party's cleric writes or buys some scrolls of neutralize poison on his spare change.
- Wholeness of body must be a free action that costs only 1 ki point and restores at least class level+Wiz modifier. Or it must restore at least 5 times more HP than it does now to be even remotely worth considering. It is not like out-of-combat poses any problem of the world of wands of CLW. In combat, restoring less HPs, that enemies remove with each attack is not exactly super even as a free action.
- Diamond Soul must be 11+level and must speficially work like a firewall, letting beneficial spells pass. Otherwise monks risk being actually punished by that ability.
- Quivering Palm must cost 2 points of ki, be used at will and affect everything.
- Perfect Body must grant DR 10/- , again, as a bare minimum.
- Monks need an ability to move more than 5' and full attack. As do all fighting classes, for that matter. It is just more prominent with the monk, because mobility is supposed to be their advantage.
This will make a monks somewhat passable beyond taking 2-level dips or, if you dare, staying in the class just as long, as you need to qualify for (non-core) prestiges. Not great, mind you. But at least capable to explain what they are doing next to THFing barbarian (charging, or, if Power Attack is not going to be fixed in the final version, hitting with scythe and Overwhelming Critical) or PBeta TWFers or even a decent rogue (although the rogue now seems to be grasping at the edge of the abyss of suck, with threatening nerf of blender archetype stomping on his fingers). More importantly, such monks will be able to fight non-modified high-CR monsters from MMs, without wholly depending on the rest of the party to keep them alive. At least, not depending more than the other melee classes. Even more importantly, they will not be yet another trap for newbies, that fall in love with all these shiny abilities and then get horribly punished by the system for taking a class that only an experienced optimizer can make kinda useful, and even then, only with non-core options.
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The monk's weaknesses come in three main areas.
First is too many key ability scores, Strength, Dex, and Wisdom.
Leaving the BAB as is, what about giving the monk Agile Maneuvers and Weapon Finesse as bonus feats? That allows them to do all attacks as Dex based, making Str significantly less important. They still miss out on the Str bonus to damage, but they should be getting more attacks.
Second is the low BAB.
Trying to work around it by using combat maneuvers that produce later advantages inevitably reaches a limit at higher levels where certains monsters are going to be just as immune to special maneuvers from a character without full BAB as they are to attacks from them. A CR 15 adult red dragon with AC 29 due to +21 natural armor has a CMB of +35 due a BAB +22. At that point modifiers are irrelevant. The only to theoretically get around that is to modify certain monk class abilities to work on touch AC, along with improving the save DC.
The third weakness is in weapon buffing.
Simply put, you cannot enchant a fist. That leaves monks dependant on an amulet of mighty fists which has a higher base cost than other weapons, and less flexibility in adding other weapon enhancements. While this is understandable when the same item is used for various monsters with multiple natural attacks, it puts the monk permanently behind the power curve. A simple modifier for this is back in 1st ed, where monks got +1/2 level in bonus damage when using a weapon. While not the same as their fist damage, the lower cost and greater flexibility will make weapons a much better option for monks.
Monks need high Con too, because of low AC and d8 HD. So, they have FOUR necessary attributes, while good classes usually can live with Con+Str/key spellcasting attribute. Good, when you roll a truly great array of stats during generation, bad in every other case.
Also, what they gain to AC does not nearly compensate for ability to wear armor, if we talk about single-classed monks and not five-class out-of-core hybrids. This results in the above-mentioned low AC.
Also, their damage output is poor-to-mediocre, so they suffer doubly from their inability to put special abilities on their fists and high cost of Amulets of the Mighty Fists. They do slightly more basic damage than TWFers, but without ability to improve that by feats. This is not nearly enough. Not when you consider that by the time their unarmed damage becomes 2d8, 200-hp enemies can be considered unusually fragile and even mooks that attack in squads are practically guaranteed to have more than 100. And that this is everything a monk will ever have, unlike TWFers, who can and should benefit not only from feats, but also from class features that grant extra damage to every attack, thus making their attack spam actually impressive.
The only way to deemphasize Strength for a class that is expected to deal most of its damage in melee is to give him other ability modifier to damage (dangerous, for multiclassing reasons) or big enough numbers from class abilities to compensate or always-applicable abilities that do not target HPs. There is a reason why Weapon Finesse-based fighters are useless past a couple of levels, at best. No, 2d10 base is not "big enough". Even rogue's +10d6 to every attack is only decent (and only if you find a way to apply this to every attack), because monsters' hit points go through the roof at high levels.
To summarize the monk's problems: its abilities have neither power nor synergy with each other, it is MAD, it does not have a tactical niche. Unless your twink-fu is strong indeed, you cannot make a decent monk even with non-core material. It is uniformly considered either the worst or the second worst core class. Unlike its contender for this title, the paladin, the monk did not receive a noticeable overhaul in PBeta. In fact, the treatment of monk so far (alongside with sheer horror of the universalist wizard and pain of melee nerfs) cannot help but make you suspect that at least some authors of PBeta either don't know or don't care what they are doing. Although it did not suffer from the nerf of melee, this does not matter much, because it is just that weak.
Corollary: you cannot fix the monk by adding a few abilities that aren't particularly good anyway. You must improve it in just about every way or rewrite it entirely.
To summarize the monk's problems: its abilities have neither power nor synergy with each other, it is MAD, it does not have a tactical niche.
No, they synergize. It's just that they synergize into nothing useful in a party-based game. He's got wholeness of body, purity of body, diamond body, diamond soul, evasion and imp. evasion, all good saves, a bonus to AC (not much for regular AC, but okay for touch AC), a d8 HD, and eventually, the Outsider type (but no subtype = Odd) and DR 10/magic.
This all synergize's into the Monk being able to survive. It means that if he could just manage to get a big target painted on him, then every attack, every spell, every effect focused on him is likely to be a wasted effect that didn't hit someone else. Except the Monk has no way of making himself an attractive opponent. Bad guys are as likely to attack someone else as they are attacking him, unless they know better, in which case they leave him alone and go after a significant threat. Which means that an encounter set up for four PCs is actually going up against three PCs, which increases the likelihood that the other three PCs will die.
Which brings us to the other thing the Monk's class abilities synergize into: mobility. The Monk can truck it. Abundant step, fast movement, etherealness, slow fall, class skills that contribute to motion, the Monk can definitely run away. He can't help anyone else run away, but he can at least survive long enough to get away and then run and live to tell the tale. Except that Cha is probably a dump stat so he can't even tell the tale well. The Monk can't win.
Here's the real problem with the Monk: alphabet soup of class abilities. Furthermore, it's not even like a Fighter or a Warlock or a Paladin where you get to choose your class abilities (feats, spells, invocations, etc.), but they're all randomly lumped together and then put into a class before the player comes into the picture. And adding more Monk bonus feats doesn't help because the Monk wasn't hurting there in the first place.
This is why the Swordsage was such a good idea. His maneuvers were his class abilities and you got to choose which ones you wanted. They might still add up to an alphabet soup, but they're just as likely not to.
[lots of insightful comments snipped]
(Amulets of Mighty Fists are ungodly expensive, and even making them cheaper won't change the fact, that any smart TWFer buys a +1 weapons with tons of special properties, and then have GMW cast on it when going into dungeons, while a monk cannot do such trick)
I generally agree with most of the comments that you made, but this bit is incorrect.
- A +0 amulet of mighty fists with +5 in enhancements costs 125,000 gp. Then the monk gets a GMW (or Greater Magic Fang) cast on his strike.
- Two +1 weapons with +5 in enhancements cost 144,000 gp. Then the TWF guy gets two GMW spells cast on his weapons.
So it's actually cheaper because you don't need that initial +1. Of course, the amulet doesn't help you to overcome DR/silver or cold iron.
Hey there all,
I am going to be spending some time looking deeply into some of the math behind the monk. Specifically, I am going to be looking for solutions that do not raise the monk up to a full BAB. This will not be happening.
I am open to thoughts on how to make them work without this change. Let me hear them.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
The monk is really, really good at higher level.