There's no reason for them not to have it. I understand the whole "HD tied to BAB" thing, but it's just ridiculous to have someone who is supposed to be a front-line combatant having difficulty in keeping up with attacks because he's got 3/4 BAB. It is so much simpler to give the monk full BAB and leave him at a d8 HD than to make class features that are work-arounds to this.
People have been asking for monks to have full BAB for years. Let's be nice and give it to them.
Agreed! After all monks are supposed to represent those masters of combat you always see in kung Fu movies, who hit their opponents with an incredible precision and ease.
But in DnD so far as well as PRPG as the rules are written so far they are lucky if they hit anything at all. With the 3/4 BAB progression they can hardly keep up with fighters and such, especially their ever-increasing ACs. By 20th level a monk is a whole of -5 behind a full BAB class. So their primary attack(s) hit about as good as a fighters secondary iterative attack. I've seen how this goes. As a TWFing fighter with 2 bastard swords i once tried to hit something. The oversized dualwielding only put me a -4 behind the normal, but I hardly ever hit anything at all. And as for a monk, just dont even try it.
the 3/4 BAB does not suit their role in the party and neither their fluff. They should definately get full BAB.
We have a term for this phenomenon: "flurry of fail."
Also known as "flurry of misses."
They sure do. They sure do.
I agree the Monk needs a boost on attack to prevent the flurry of misses syndrome but I think giving them full BAB is not the answer. With the current flurry of blows implementation he would have
- an awful amount of attacks per round
- earliest possible access to Vital Strike
- access to Improved Vital Strike without dipping into a full BAB class.Imho this would be too good. Vital Strike combined with flurry and the high damage dice is a real killer combo for a Monk, especially if he's access to a Monk's Robe.
My suggestion would be to give the Monk something like the fighters weapon training ability to boosts his attacks. What I mean is something like a cumulative +1 bonus on all attacks at 1th, 5th, 9th, 13th, 17th and 20th level. That would give him a chance to hit as if he'd full BAB but not the amount of attacks or access to feats.
Edit: I think the penalty to flurry at lower levels is ok, as you don't have to use it when you're fighting a high AC enemy.
You could raise the requisites for Vital strike.
Director of Game Design
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Hey there all,
I am going to be spending some time looking deeply into some of the math behind the monk. Specifically, I am going to be looking for solutions that do not raise the monk up to a full BAB. This will not be happening.
I am open to thoughts on how to make them work without this change. Let me hear them.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I hate to be a contrarian, but I strongly disagree that Monk BAB needs to be raised. Monks get a huge number of special abilities to play with that are simply unavailable to the pure martial classes, such as the fighter. Raising their BAB would significantly raise their power level and probably percipitate power creep across the board as other classes would need additional stuff just to keep up with the monk.
Hey there all,
I am going to be spending some time looking deeply into some of the math behind the monk. Specifically, I am going to be looking for solutions that do not raise the monk up to a full BAB. This will not be happening.
I am open to thoughts on how to make them work without this change. Let me hear them.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
:( me = unhappy. I think 3/4 BAB is just wrong for a martial artist. This way they'll never live up to what theyre supposed to be.
I hate to be a contrarian, but I strongly disagree that Monk BAB needs to be raised. Monks get a huge number of special abilities to play with that are simply unavailable to the pure martial classes, such as the fighter. Raising their BAB would significantly raise their power level and probably percipitate power creep across the board as other classes would need additional stuff just to keep up with the monk.
Dunno; it almost seems like an eldritch knight can do everything a monk can do, except better: if you think about it, the monk abilities largely duplicate spells (flurry of blows = nerfed haste, slow fall = feather fall, abundant step = dimension door, leap of the clouds = jump, fast movement = expeditious retreat, etc., etc.). The monk gets far fewer abilities/spells and a lower BAB (+12 for a Monk 17 vs. +14 for a Ftr 1/Sor 6/EldKt 10), and in exchange gets better saves and a few immunities. It's a fairly lousy trade-off, mechanically-speaking.
That said, Jason has spoken; the monk's BAB isn't going to be raised. We just need to think of ways to make him as good as an Eldritch Knight.
I too do not see a need for monks to have full BAB. Better CMB yes, full BAB no.
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I too do not see a need for monks to have full BAB. Better CMB yes, full BAB no.But the Maneuver Training ability he gets at 3rd level already lets him use his class level instead of his BAB for calculating his CMB. Or do you mean a bonus on top of that?
No - I guess I never read the monk that closely to see that they've added that. With Maneuver Training in mind - I think they're status quo on that front, too. I retract my comment.
Robert
Whatever. I hate the monk class, but I wanted to see it functional. I suppose it doesn't matter because I won't ever be using them in any game that I run.
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I hate to be a contrarian, but I strongly disagree that Monk BAB needs to be raised. Monks get a huge number of special abilities to play with that are simply unavailable to the pure martial classes, such as the fighter. Raising their BAB would significantly raise their power level and probably percipitate power creep across the board as other classes would need additional stuff just to keep up with the monk.
I am in agreement with this.
I understand the monk needs a little help with the CMB. I also am aware, but have not experienced as a player or a dm (as I don't play monks) high level problems. The monks I have seen have been pretty well balanced. They suffer one problem at low levels, the Stunning fist missed again so I am not using it syndrome. (This is related to the paladin's smite problem) Fixing CMB shouldn't be that hard. Either the level addition to CMB does it or maybe adding wisdom to it?
I am not a huge Monk enthusiast. The only 2 things I ask is;
1) That they not get full BAB (which doesn't look likely anyway) which as a regular DM I fear would unbalance the game for the rest of my Melee combatants.
2) That their CMB issues get resolved so that they can be the masters of those crazy maneuvers that we are all familiar with.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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... try letting monks use Wisdom in place of Strength for attack and damage rolls. That might at least help reduce thier MAD.
I could see something like this (I would limit the Wisdom substitution to damage, not attack rolls) being a feat open to Monks.
When novices in the monastery begin their studies of the unarmed blows, they use their muscles to drive their fists to break bricks and boards. But eventually, there comes a time when the student must learn to put physical strength aside, and punch from the heart.
That insight could be represented by a feat.
But it wouldn't be required; the big burly monk who gets by on muscle and leverage would still be a fine character concept.
Yeah, flurry of misses FTW. You could just reduce that penalty I guess, but I'm not sure what the justification is for the monk not having a full BAB. They're a pure fighting class. And the -2 is nice and parallel with rapid shot etc. I say it's as simple as setting monks to full BAB, yay, you're done. The no armor/no weapons thing makes up for it - it'll make them different from the fighter, but not worse (for currently, they are worse).
... try letting monks use Wisdom in place of Strength for attack and damage rolls. That might at least help reduce thier MAD.I could see something like this (I would limit the Wisdom substitution to damage, not attack rolls) being a feat open to Monks.
When novices in the monastery begin their studies of the unarmed blows, they use their muscles to drive their fists to break bricks and boards. But eventually, there comes a time when the student must learn to put physical strength aside, and punch from the heart.
That insight could be represented by a feat.
But it wouldn't be required; the big burly monk who gets by on muscle and leverage would still be a fine character concept.
Some Ideas Thanks to Chris and Deadly
Wisdom is Strength
Your years of training and innate wisdom provide you with an insight into the weaknesses of your opponents style.
Prerequisites: Wis 13+. Improved Unarmed Strike,
Benefit: You can add your wisdom bonus to your strength bonus in calculating your damage.
Special: This feat can be taken as a monk bonus feat.
Zen Strike
Your years of training and innate wisdom provide you with an insight into the weaknesses of your opponents style.
Prerequisites: Wis 13+. Improved Unarmed Strike,
Benefit: You can add your 1/2 wisdom bonus to your when calculating your attack bonus.
Special: This feat can be taken as a monk bonus feat.
But monk's are NOT a full fighting class. Yes they have the means to deliever some amazing damage, however they are not supposed to be front liners. Monk's are supposed to be the anti-flanker, anti-magic types. They can out flank the flankers, hit the flankers fairly easily with damage that means they will get respect, and can do the same to mages. Also all their AC bonuses are used against touch attacks, which again shows how they are supposed to be hunting down the wizard. With all the movement enhancement they have they can use tumble to avoid AoO's and still move 30+ feet in a single move. I wouldn't mind seeing monk's get a move and strike more than once ability (maybe tie it into the flurry of blows, 1 extra attack with the same penalties and bonuses as FoB, including an extra attack at higher levels).
Evasion, High Movement, High Saves, Spell Resistance, Extra immunities, High(ish) Touch AC, good damage, Good Skills, Lots of Abilities.
With full BAB the question becomes why play a fighter/ranger/rogue?
The only real concern I have with Monk's is raising their AC, and even that is covered with magic items.
Something else:
A monk at 20th level can have an attack routine of:
+15/+15/+15/+15/+10/+5
It blows the fighters +20/+15/+10/+5 out of the water.
One point of clarity I would like to see is how monk's unarmed strike/ flurry of blows interacts with two weapon fighting.
It only blows the fighter routine away if the blows actually hit (and even then maybe not).
I would definitely like to know how TWF affects IUS/flurry of blows.
Ok, first of all, I am a big Monk fan since the old Mystic from the BECMI Boxed Set.
After saying that, I truly don't think it's good for the Monk to take the Full BaB progression (and Jason has already stated that this will not be done).
What can be done, then? I have some suggestions:
1) Things that COULD be done without unbalancing the game
- Add Weapon Finesse among the Monk Bonus feats; this could reduce the MAD of the Monk
- Improve the Slow Fall, in order to make a Monk a real Vuxia character early on
- Change the abysmal DR 10/magic that a Monk takes at 20th level to something like: DR 10/chaotic, DR 10/- vs chaotic characters, or even (my favourite) DR 10/Lawful. "Only an axiomatic, disciplinated creature can bypass the fierce defence of the undisputed Martial Arts Master" (incidentally, a high level Monk has these requisites - and KI Strike Lawful BTW - so...)
- Beef up the Wholeness of Body a bit (more hp or swift action - or even both)
2) Things that SHOULD be useful without really unbalancing anything
- Add at 1st level an ability like
Disciplined Mind (Su): a Monk adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to all his attack rolls and his CMB checks.
It could be good to add the WIS bonus even to his damage rolls, but not really necessary
- Add some kind of ki abilities, like
-- An ability like Greater Magic Weapon (caster level equal to the Monk's class level) for 1 minute per level spending 1 ki point as a swift action
-- At 12th level [or earlier, at 8th level], a monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to wreathe his body with an aura of energy. Choose a signature type of energy from Cold, Electricity, Fire, or Sonic [sorry, no acid; it seems silly on a monk]. When you spend 1 ki point as a swift action [if it's too good, make 2 ki points], all your unarmed attacks deal +1d6 of energy of the type of your Energy Signature for the entire round [that would cover AoO also]. Once a Monk has chosen his Energy Signature, this cannot be changed.
- Make Quivering Palm an ability that burns a large number of ki points, but can be made more than once per week ! Something like 6/8 ki points would do
3)Things that I WOULD like to see, but I'm aware that could be a bit too much
- Some kind of Ki Burst attack (HADOUKEN !!!) at [12th or 15th or 16th] level with a range of 30 or 60 feet and a cost of 2 (4 if it seems too good) ki points. Standard action, damage of 1d6 per Monk level (or something like that). The PHBII made something like this with the burning of Stunning Attacks (a rather silly idea for me, if you ask; even Fighters were allowed to take this !!!) and the creation of a - let's call it DROP of ki energy that made FORCE damage (abysmal damage, good for immunities)
I know the last one would be ignored - but oh, well, a man can have his dreams.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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... try letting monks use Wisdom in place of Strength for attack and damage rolls. That might at least help reduce thier MAD.I could see something like this (I would limit the Wisdom substitution to damage, not attack rolls) being a feat open to Monks.
When novices in the monastery begin their studies of the unarmed blows, they use their muscles to drive their fists to break bricks and boards. But eventually, there comes a time when the student must learn to put physical strength aside, and punch from the heart.
That insight could be represented by a feat.
But it wouldn't be required; the big burly monk who gets by on muscle and leverage would still be a fine character concept.
Some Ideas Thanks to Chris and Deadly
Wisdom is Strength
Your years of training and innate wisdom provide you with an insight into the weaknesses of your opponents style.Prerequisites: Wis 13+. Improved Unarmed Strike,
Benefit: You can add your wisdom bonus to your strength bonus in calculating your damage.
Special: This feat can be taken as a monk bonus feat.
Zen Strike
Your years of training and innate wisdom provide you with an insight into the weaknesses of your opponents style.Prerequisites: Wis 13+. Improved Unarmed Strike,
Benefit: You can add your 1/2 wisdom bonus to your when calculating your attack bonus.
Special: This feat can be taken as a monk bonus feat.
I hope you don't mind but I reposted this in the 'New Feat Ideas' thread -- a thread to collect, but not necessarily debate, proposed feats.
I'd consider applying the "duelist rule" -- max. +1 per class level -- so as not to have 1st level guys with huge bonuses.
My suggestion for a fix that leaves BAB intact is to append the following text to maneuver training: "In addition, whenever the monk successfully performs a combat maneuver, he may choose to deal damage as though he had hit his target with an unarmed strike attack." ... All benefits of adding that one single sentence to the maneuver training ability.
Meepo, this is positively inspired. Bravo! Question: can the monk perform a combat maneuver as part of a full attack or flurry, or is a combat maneuver a standard action? If the latter, his "flurry of blows" remains a useless "flurry of misses."
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Director of Game Design
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I am going to be looking for solutions that do not raise the monk up to a full BAB. This will not be happening.
I am open to thoughts on how to make them work without this change. Let me hear them.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo PublishingMy suggestion for a fix that leaves BAB intact is to append the following text to maneuver training: "In addition, whenever the monk successfully performs a combat maneuver, he may choose to deal damage as though he had hit his target with an unarmed strike attack."
That one small change makes a world of difference: the monk's medium BAB is no longer holding him back; he can just damage opponents by performing combat maneuvers, which ignore AC. This makes his attacks more likely to hit; gives him a reasonable, more reliable damage output; and even gives him a clear party role (combat maneuver guy, since he has little reason not to perform combat maneuvers at every available opportunity).
As an added bonus, the proposed change allows monks to perform classic wuxia-type stunts that resemble combat maneuvers, but sound as though they should also inflict some sort of damage: bull rushing by kicking the opponent in the chest; disarming by violently twisting an arm; overrunning by climbing someone like a ladder, kicking off on their face to jump clear to the other side; tripping by smashing a kneecap with a powerful kick; etc.
All benefits of adding that one single sentence to the maneuver training ability.
This is an interesting idea... and one that I will consider.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Question: can the monk perform a combat maneuver as part of a full attack or flurry, or is a combat maneuver a standard action?
If the latter, this option loses a lot of its allure, and the "flurry of blows" remains a useless "flurry of misses."
I like that idea too. Monks should be able to cream anyone else in unarmed combat.
I do like epic meepo's ideal
I like the idea, except: would it make the monk's ordinary attacks pointless? In other words, would the monk ever have any reason to perform a normal attack/flurry of blows instead of a combat maneuver?
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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My suggestion for a fix that leaves BAB intact is to append the following text to maneuver training: "In addition, whenever the monk successfully performs a combat maneuver, he may choose to deal damage as though he had hit his target with an unarmed strike attack." ... All benefits of adding that one single sentence to the maneuver training ability.Meepo, this is positively inspired. Bravo! Question: can the monk perform a combat maneuver as part of a full attack or flurry, or is a combat maneuver a standard action? If the latter, his "flurry of blows" remains a useless "flurry of misses."
It depends on the maneuver you do.
Disarm, Sunder, and Trip are all things you do with an attack action, so you can full-attack to do this to multiple targets.
Bull Rush, Grapple, and Overrun are standard actions.
Personally, I love the idea for the bull rush/grapple/overrun group. I like it a little less for the disarm/sunder/trip group, in part because 2 out of 3 you aren't really attacking the person so much as the weapon, though I can see the "I snatch the sword from your hand while you are distracted by me elbowing you in the throat and kicking you in the gnads" imagery.
Rather than making it automatic damage, I might make a successful CMB allow you to follow up with an unarmed strike.
I actually posted some feat chains that were very similar to this concept as extended versions of basic feats (Improved Trip, Greater Trip, Superior Trip) and such that fighters could take, but I wouldn't mind the monk being the king of the CMB-monkeys and allowing them to do something like this as part of their class abilities.
BTW, behind the spoiler below, you may find a rant on the subject of the "flurry of misses":
But, even though you will sometimes fight super-AC foes where every point of attack bonus matters, by the time that comes up, YOU AREN'T TAKING AN ATTACK ROLL PENALTY TO FLURRY ANY MORE. You're just getting free extra attacks at your best bonus.
True, a monk is not going to be as hardcore as a warrior-type on his attack rolls, but he's not that far behind, at around the level of the uber-fighter's second attack. He also gets the advantage of more attacks toward which to apply any situational or buffing bonuses, which at higher levels tend to stack up like cordwood. Those are nice when they apply to one attack, but they are much nicer when they apply each and every time to a whole raft of attacks.
In order for the postulate of the "flurry of misses" to be true, then EVERY monster you fight would have to be essentially impossible for anyone to hit except for the uber-maxed fighter on his first iterative attack. Every other character's attacks, and every fighter attack after the first one, would have to be near-guaranteed misses.
Which is an odd argument to make, given that the same people who make it typically are the ones who assert that AC doesn't matter at high levels because everyone always hits all the time unless they roll a 1.
So which is it? Does everyone always hit because offense is to uber?
Or does everyone always miss except with the most maximized single attack by the bestest character because defense is so uber?
The combat manuevers idea is good to me. Can you perform more than one manuever as part of a full attack action? I've not fully read up on the combat manuever rules currently, but that would be my only worry here.
I am going to be looking for solutions that do not raise the monk up to a full BAB. This will not be happening.
I am open to thoughts on how to make them work without this change. Let me hear them.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo PublishingMy suggestion for a fix that leaves BAB intact is to append the following text to maneuver training: "In addition, whenever the monk successfully performs a combat maneuver, he may choose to deal damage as though he had hit his target with an unarmed strike attack."
That one small change makes a world of difference: the monk's medium BAB is no longer holding him back; he can just damage opponents by performing combat maneuvers, which ignore AC. This makes his attacks more likely to hit; gives him a reasonable, more reliable damage output; and even gives him a clear party role (combat maneuver guy, since he has little reason not to perform combat maneuvers at every available opportunity).
As an added bonus, the proposed change allows monks to perform classic wuxia-type stunts that resemble combat maneuvers, but sound as though they should also inflict some sort of damage: bull rushing by kicking the opponent in the chest; disarming by violently twisting an arm; overrunning by climbing someone like a ladder, kicking off on their face to jump clear to the other side; tripping by smashing a kneecap with a powerful kick; etc.
All benefits of adding that one single sentence to the maneuver training ability.
I like these thoughts, just leaves flurry even more superfluous. You should somehow be able to work the flurry into a maneuver and make the whole stuff more interesting.
I think Monks are fine as they are they get plenty of abilities and all good saves. If you want to charge into combat and try to stand toe to toe with oppoents you need to consider being a fighter.
The guy running a monk in my campgain even agrees they are fine.
What do you use your monk for, if not combat? Having good saves and abilities is all fine, but what is it good for if your character can go anywhere in anyway and save against anything but cannot do anything in return?
+1 vote for Meepo's idea.
I've got this in another thread, but since this one is more active right now, I'll post it here too.
Gained at 1st level.
Martial Arts (Ex): You gain a +1 competence bonus to attack rolls with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons. This bonus increases to +2 at 5th level, +3 at 9th level, +4 at 13th level, and +5 at 17th level. This bonus may not exceed your Wisdom modifier (minimum of +1).
Benefits of a full BAB that this adds:
Accuracy. For the most part, we advocates of the Monk's full BAB don't want that last iterative attack, we just want to be able to hit.
Alleged problems of a full BAB that this avoids:
3rd iterative attack. You still only gain iterative attacks according to a medium BAB (meaning no more than two. Flurry of Blows covers for this anyway.
Applying BAB to Sense Motive to avoid Bluff. As a Monk, you've got a good Wis, a medium BAB, and Sense Motive as a class skill, so you're still covered.
Gaining BAB prerequisites too early. You don't start off with a BAB of +1 at 1st level, so feats like Weapon Finesse still have to wait. You qualify for feats with BAB of +8 no earlier than anyone else with medium BAB. And you don't qualify for feats with BAB +16 earlier than Epic levels.
Additional notes about this ability:
Wisdom Dependent. Your Wisdom modifier determines how much of a competence bonus you get to add. Ergo, a Wisdom-draining effect works on both your defenses (AC and Will saves) and your ability to attack.
Nonstacking Competence bonuses. As a competence bonus, the Martial Arts ability wouldn't stack with other competence bonuses. It can represent the Monk's perfection of self, which is what the Monk's journey to self-perfection is all about, right? Furthermore, it represents his reliance on himself, so when the Cleric comes over and offers a spell with a competence bonus, he says, "No, your god may be able to help others perform better, but my talents are my own and only I can improve them."
Just out of curiosity, why aren't you (Jason) considering giving them full BAB? Is it because of the last iterative attack (because deleting the Greater Flurry of Blows solves that problem)? Is it because "Flurry of Misses" is a good thing (no, it is not, nor is it just an Internet myth)? Is it because of a disparity between HD and BAB (because the Barbarian class has a different HD for his BAB)? Is it because of some concern with overpoweredness (because the Pathfinder Campaign Setting allows the Cleric to exchange his two domains for a D10 HD and a full BAB, and if that ain't overpowered, then a Monk with full BAB most assuredly won't be)?
Jason's made his decision, but I'd love to know his reason why.