Sorry if this topic came up before, but, one major thing that I've always hated about D&D (and consequently a lot of MMOs) is that sometimes you absolutely HAVE to have one particular class as a part of your party in order to play the game. I like the idea of getting a mishmash (dare I say ragtag) group of characters together, and then working around what everyone did or didn't choose to play. In some ways, this isn't a huge problem in pathfinder. The cleric might be the best healer, but the bard, druid, or paladin can fill the role if need be.
The problem is that a lot of games include traps, which, as the game currently exists, means that a rogue is kind of required for trap-laden dungeons. And, really, a LOT of games take place in trap-laden dungeons. So basically, the rogue ends up being the only class that is completely necessary for a lot of functioning parties.
In fact, the ranger in my group, who dislikes rogues, was going to take a level dip (until I talked him out of it, as he's a major rangerphile) into rogue, just so the party could HAVE a trapfinder when the rogue was gone.
My solution's pretty simple: why don't we give the ranger trapfinding? Unless I'm on crack, I swear the iconic ranger preview had trapfinding listed. Given the amount of time they spend fighting monsters in the wilderness, rangers are likely to be well-versed in snares, pit-traps etc. than the rogue is. Magic traps are sort of the extension of those mundane traps, so there's no real reason for the rogue to have more knowledge of them than the ranger.
I'm aware people have complained about the class being lackluster and underpowered, so this might give them a fun push in the right direction (frankly, there are already combat classes, so I'd like to see the ranger pushed towards hybrid if they're to get upgraded)
The only argument I've seen against this is that this will diminish the concept of the rogue. However, I've never seen a rogue who was really excited about trapfinding. Sneak attack yes, skills yes, but trapfinding? not really. It's always sort of been a 'well, I'm a rogue, so yeah, I'll check.' I don't remember hearing major complaints about the artificer or scout trapfinding (personally, I was excited, as those classes tripled the range of possible party compositions).
I'm all for rogues being the BEST trapfinders, so my proposed compromise is that we keep disable device off of the ranger skill list. That way, rogues still have a leg up, but aren't entirely necessary.
(coherent) Thoughts/feelings/rants?
Check out the Dungeonscape alternative class features for Ranger. One of these is exactly what you are talking about here. :) Admittedly, it replaces the tracking feature, but.
Ozymandius
King of Kings
Personally, I think traps should be detectable by everyone, not just rogues - just like tracking has become something you can do without the feat.
Instead, grant rogues a bonus to his perception checks to notice traps, or give them an automatic roll (like elves and secret doors).
I've already house ruled that Rangers have trapfinding in my home game. So far, the game hasn't imploded.
|
As mentioned before in other parts there ae different types of Rangers. Since this will not include the Skirmisher Class, but the ideas in other parts was to let the Ranger be this, then as part of that the Ranger Definetly would need to be able to find/disarm traps as well.
Also mentioned above is that the Rogue is the only one with the speciality in Trapfinding/Disarming of DC +20. Another class being able to help or do if there are no Rogues, and the Ranger is the class atleast closest to have some of the pre-quals.
Thats my 2 cents
---SagaWeaver
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
As mentioned before in other parts there ae different types of Rangers. Since this will not include the Skirmisher Class, but the ideas in other parts was to let the Ranger be this, then as part of that the Ranger Definetly would need to be able to find/disarm traps as well.
Also mentioned above is that the Rogue is the only one with the speciality in Trapfinding/Disarming of DC +20. Another class being able to help or do if there are no Rogues, and the Ranger is the class atleast closest to have some of the pre-quals.
Thats my 2 cents
---SagaWeaver
I agree with rangers getting trapfinding. Hey, it was good enough for the Scout in CompAdv, and the Scout was basically a mobile, non-casting ranger. Since that's non-OGL, I think rangers as trapfinders in PF makes good sense to me.
Actually, for that matter, I think trap sense would be better as a ranger ability than a barbarian ability too.
I have changed the Trapfinding ability to mean that they are always Searching when moving at Dungeoning rate (a bit like elves). If they walk passed a hidden door, or on to a trap trigger I roll and warn them that they spot something. The other classes can find traps over DC 20 but they have to be stating that they are searching.
A quote from Uncle Parnick "Trapmaker" Pardfart
'Them pesky dwarven rangers keeping finding our neatly hidden traps all of a sudden. They didn't used to a few years back!'
|
|
I personally like the idea of getting rid of this class feature in favor of it becoming a skill feature, much as Tracking was folded into into Survival. I also think that Rogues should have a class ability allowing them a bonus to Trapfinding (i.e. Trapsense) based on class advancement. It seems to make sense that anyone should be able to spot a trap with a DC 20+ without taking a dip into Rogue.
Example
Rogue: See that tripwire right there?
Ranger: It must have a DC of 20+, cause I can't see it.
Rogue: You're level 13! You have a Perception of 24 thanks to Skill Focus (perception)! How can you not see it!
Ranger: Because the rules say its impossible for me to detect without a spell if the DC is above 20.
It makes no logical sense.
And I still don't understand why the Barbarian has Trapsense and the Ranger does not.
I have changed the Trapfinding ability to mean that they are always Searching when moving at Dungeoning rate (a bit like elves). If they walk passed a hidden door, or on to a trap trigger I roll and warn them that they spot something. The other classes can find traps over DC 20 but they have to be stating that they are searching.
I really like this! Also the situation Arnim Thayer presents sounds like something out of Order of the Stick, which amuses me greatly.
The problem with the automatic (yes, it is a funny reference) is that a lot of the time (at least, with me) it won't amount to much. I mean, pretty much the rogue says "I'm checking this dungeon for traps" and goes a few feet ahead of the group, and I start rolling for them. I know a lot of DMs do things differently, so maybe it matters less in bigger groups.
I've got to say, I'm against letting everyone find traps above DC 20. If everyone can do everything, the class system will start to be pointless (which may not be a bad thing, but it's a little beyond the scope of what the Pathfinder RPG is trying to accomplish). I'm just for diversifying party composition a bit.
Yes, rangers need trapfinding. It's ridiculous that only a single Core class has it.
|
|
I think if the Ranger is going to be given Trapfinding then things need to be edited in the slightest method. If the outdoors, loner, survivor (Ranger) has trapfinding I would believe that his ability would be tied into those traps in the wilds, snares, pits, etc.
Now on that same coin but on the other side the Rogue (the "Urban" character) his trapfinding ability should be limited to those in or built areas...locks, doors (not a stone slab), constructed rooms, walls, floors.
Now either should have a chance to notice a trap in either setting but it should reflect in the bonus given. Say both classes get Trapfinding, although the Ranger recieves a +2 Perception check to those trap's outdoors and the Rogue would receive this for constructed areas? Note this wouldn't be to disable just to notice.
That's my two pence!
|
|
Personally, I think traps should be detectable by everyone, not just rogues - just like tracking has become something you can do without the feat.
Instead, grant rogues a bonus to his perception checks to notice traps, or give them an automatic roll (like elves and secret doors).
There was a previous thread on this during the Alpha stages - and I believe Kae and I both agreed and posted there - as we agree and are posting here.
IMO, trapfinding should be something all can do for no other reason than the fact that the OP was right - trapfinding is the only true NECESSARY ability in the game that ONLY one core class can provide (I indicate core class - because many games, including those I run and am part of only use the CORE rules with no splat books). Healing, fighting, arcane magic, removing maladies - almost all needed things can be done by a number of classes to some degree. It's very frustrating at times when a group has "no rogue" for the traps etc.
Either trapfinding should be a Feat that rogues get as a bonus freebie at 1st level, OR it's part of the Perception skill - which is already the most favorably powerful skill in the game unless we remove Search back from it and keep Search as it's own skill used for trapfinding and secret doors again as it use to be.
In the latter case, the rogue should then get either a bonus to their trapmaking, OR have the ability like an elf's ability to notice a secret door in that they have a chance to notice it before it goes off without actually searching for it.
Thus, all can search for traps and therefore a group doesn't NEED a rogue to continue - just like a party can live without a cleric if there's a bard, druid, ranger, or paladin that can help heal; but although everyone can do it, a rogue is just better at it - like a cleric is just better at healing.
Robert
...Or we could just give rangers (and perhaps bards) trapfinding, which is easier.
|
|
...Or we could just give rangers (and perhaps bards) trapfinding, which is easier.
Except that an arguement can be made that if Rangers can detect such traps and snares and such, why shouldn't a barbarian and druid. If a fighter has knowledge dungeoneering, why should he have some ability to detect them. Monks are suppose to have a supernatural sense of awareness and danger, so if rogues, and bards, and rangers, and barbarians, and druids, and now fighters all have the capability, why shouldn't monks.
And by that point, why not just assign it to the last three classes and make it a normal ability - like tracking...if all classes can follow tracks yet rangers be slightly better....there's no reason why we can't follow the same logic with trapfinding - all classes can find traps, but rogues do it a bit better........
Robert
I think it would be easy to just let anyone search for traps. Rogues would still have a major niche in that they get more skill points than any other class and sneak attack and rogue talents and a laundry list of other special abilities. A low level group could go into a dungeon without a rogue and still expect everyone to come out.
IMO, trapfinding should be something all can do for no other reason than the fact that the OP was right - trapfinding is the only true NECESSARY ability in the game that ONLY one core class can provide (I indicate core class - because many games, including those I run and am part of only use the CORE rules with no splat books). Healing, fighting, arcane magic, removing maladies - almost all needed things can be done by a number of classes to some degree. It's very frustrating at times when a group has "no rogue" for the traps etc.
Since so few traps are even remotely fatal you just need a barbarian and a few healing potions. Animal companions and summoned creatures are also quite good at detecting traps this way. Look at the next dungeon you are in and sum up the damage from every single trap in the game. Most likely your barbarian won't be killed by the collective damage.
Magical traps are often detectable by the at will "detect magic" spell.
Speaking of spellcasting "Detect Traps" is a 2nd level cleric spell that allows a cleric to detect traps, possibly more effectively than a rogue (more effective if the cleric invests 4 or more ranks in Perception).
Even so... rangers with trap detection or possibly a feat anyone could take would be a welcome addition to the game.
|
|
I feel Rangers should have Trapfinding in their favored environments.
I feel monks should have trap sense/uncanny dodge; those abilities just go with the nature of preternatural senses.
When monk comes up for play test, I'll be linking my monk from the Alpha boards again, based upon the rogue talents design ideal.
|
|
I feel Rangers should have Trapfinding in their favored environments.
I feel monks should have trap sense/uncanny dodge; those abilities just go with the nature of preternatural senses.
When monk comes up for play test, I'll be linking my monk from the Alpha boards again, based upon the rogue talents design ideal.
That's a pretty neat rule - I don't know if it is easy enough to use to have in the core, but certainly as a houserule. It fixes the "hey I know how to find all kinds of traps" that giving the Ranger Trapfinding would cause. Plus, makes choosing an environment much more useful and flavourful.
Robert's response to PR, and Archade's post gave me an idea:
Why not make Trapfinding into a feat, and give it to Rogues as an automatic feat at 1st level?
After all, there is already a precedence for this with Rangers and the Track feat. I wouldn't mind seeing this reworked in a similar fashion.
|
|
Robert's response to PR gave me an idea:
Why not make Trapfinding into a feat?
Just as Rangers get Track as a bonus feat at 1st level, give Rogues Trapfinding as a bonus feat at 1st level too. That would alleviate the problem of *having* to have a rogue, and would allow for some other creative (yet plausible) trapfinders as Robert suggested.
I'm not opposed to that idea, even if there is an Int prerequisite. It would cut down on some semi-necessary class dipping. Having a Fighter with Trapfinding would be very nice rather than forcing that Fighter to take a level of rogue. The Rogue gets the advantage in having Disable Device as a class skill, so they are better at it. But the feat allows everyone to try on any trap.
Mages get knock, clerics get find traps, so give the warriors a boost by giving them Trapfinding. I like it.
I think if the Ranger is going to be given Trapfinding then things need to be edited in the slightest method. If the outdoors, loner, survivor (Ranger) has trapfinding I would believe that his ability would be tied into those traps in the wilds, snares, pits, etc.
Now on that same coin but on the other side the Rogue (the "Urban" character) his trapfinding ability should be limited to those in or built areas...locks, doors (not a stone slab), constructed rooms, walls, floors.
Now either should have a chance to notice a trap in either setting but it should reflect in the bonus given. Say both classes get Trapfinding, although the Ranger receives a +2 Perception check to those trap's outdoors and the Rogue would receive this for constructed areas? Note this wouldn't be to disable just to notice.
That's my two pence!
This is overcomplicated and unnecessary. Plus it makes the problem worse. Now, instead of having one necessary party member, you'll have two. One for wilderness traps, and one for urban traps. The last thing I want to do is have two required classes for a functioning party, when people are complaining about having one.
Robert's response to PR gave me an idea:
Why not make Trapfinding into a feat?
Just as Rangers get Track as a bonus feat at 1st level, give Rogues Trapfinding as a bonus feat at 1st level too. That would alleviate the problem of *having* to have a rogue, and would allow for some other creative (yet plausible) trapfinders as Robert suggested.
Yeah, see, I think this is an extreme of what I proposed for two reasons:
A: If we something THAT open-ended, we may as well just be playing a flavorless generic system.
and B: Frankly, the idea of a sneaky skillmonkey type character scouting ahead and making sure the way is safe from traps is deeply ingrained in the RPG genre. I'm just suggesting we let the other sneaky scout class do it as well.
Robert's response to PR gave me an idea:
Why not make Trapfinding into a feat?
Just as Rangers get Track as a bonus feat at 1st level, give Rogues Trapfinding as a bonus feat at 1st level too. That would alleviate the problem of *having* to have a rogue, and would allow for some other creative (yet plausible) trapfinders as Robert suggested.
Yeah, see, I think this is an extreme of what I proposed for two reasons:
A: If we something THAT open-ended, we may as well just be playing a flavorless generic system.
and B: Frankly, the idea of a sneaky skillmonkey type character scouting ahead and making sure the way is safe from traps is deeply ingrained in the RPG genre. I'm just suggesting we let the other sneaky scout class do it as well.
It's a non-issue, or at least a self-limiting one.
Characters who take such a feat without the skills points needed for Search/Perception and Disable Device in addition to other skills they want/need won't be stealing anyone's spotlight. Well, unless you call getting torched by a trap they couldn't see/disarm a spotlight. ;)
This would simply make it so that other classes with sufficient skill points and cause (i.e. rangers, bards, monks) could fill-in if need be. Paladins, Fighters, and Clerics have better things to spend their scant skill points on, and the arcane casters are fairly crunchy. Those classes also don't have Perception as a class skill, and no one but the Rogue has Disable Device as a class skill — all other classes would be at a disadvantage by comparison*. This is what I mean by a self-limiting "problem".
As for a "flavorless generic system", I think that's a bit of an over-exaggeration. Having Track as a feat certainly hasn't ruined the game and made the Ranger a useless class. It seems more contrived to me that every party has to have "generic rogue" in their ranks rather than allowing for a bit more diversity in part composition.
However, if it's not a core part of a class' iconic history, then I think they should absolutely have to pay to acquire the ability (i.e. as a feat) rather than simply getting it as a freebie/class ability. After all, if we give a class an ability, then it may become necessary to remove another feature to retain class balance. As such, I'd much rather see Trapfinding as a feat rather than a class feature [for classes other than the rogue].
* NOTE: As someone else suggested, I would advocate that Rangers get to apply their Favored Terrain bonus on Disable Device and Craft:Trapmaking checks for snares, etc. in regions where the Favored Terrain bonus applies. This is one area where it doesn't necessarily make sense for the Rogue to be the best at this sort of task. At the same time, it doesn't over-complicate the matter by splitting Trapfinding into Urban and Wilderness abilities.
It's a non-issue, or at least a self-limiting one.
Characters who take such a feat without the skills points needed for Search/Perception and Disable Device in addition to other skills they want/need won't be stealing anyone's spotlight. Well, unless you call getting torched by a trap they couldn't see/disarm a spotlight. ;)
This would simply make it so that other classes with sufficient skill points and cause (i.e. rangers, bards, monks) could fill-in if need be. Paladins, Fighters, and Clerics have better things to spend their scant skill points on, and the arcane casters are fairly crunchy. Those classes also don't have Perception as a class skill, and no one but the Rogue has Disable Device as a class skill — all other classes would be at a disadvantage by comparison*. This is what I mean by a self-limiting "problem".
As for a "flavorless generic system", I think that's a bit of an over-exaggeration. Having Track as a feat certainly hasn't ruined the game and made the Ranger a useless class. It seems more contrived to me that every party has to have "generic rogue" in their ranks rather than allowing for a bit more diversity in part composition.
However, if it's not a...
See, That is an issue. In fact, the specific example being used by the 'let everyone do it' camp IS the fighter. And I can see how perception and DD are already advantageous enough that all of those classes might consider putting points into them if they were a mere feat away from replacing the skill monkey (esp if they're humans with decent int and favored class, and they make their living as adventurers).
I don't think the 'generic system' concern is far off at all. Track's really not a good example because, in most games, tracking comes up far less often than does trapfinding, and makes far less of a difference. I agree that the 'generic rogue' thing is contrived, which is why I made this post in the first place. I just think you're taking the reverse too far.
And I really could see everyone taking the trapfinding feat. Or at least most players. It really is an awfully important ability to have, and not that steep of a price for it. I'd rather just see rangers (and I've heard some people say Bards, though I'm iffy on that) gain the ability.
|
|
I agree that Trapfinding should be a feat. The rogue will always be the best at it, but at least someone else can try to find and disable the traps when he's not around.
In such a mechanic, rogues should also get the ability to notice a trap like elves notice secret doors - like a supernatural awareness. Everyone else has to actively search for them.
Robert
I agree that Trapfinding should be a feat. The rogue will always be the best at it, but at least someone else can try to find and disable the traps when he's not around.
Bah. As much as I disagree with this, it does seem to be the popular answer. Should DD be kept as a non-class skill for everyone besides rogues, just to give them the edge?
In such a mechanic, rogues should also get the ability to notice a trap like elves notice secret doors - like a supernatural awareness. Everyone else has to actively search for them.Robert
I don't really see the point in that. A lot of GMs (and I'm referring here to the ones I play with) just kind of make the rogue say "I'm checking for traps in this dungeon" and then just keep rolling for them. Implying in the rules that everyone has to say "I'm checking this room. Now I'm checking the hallway" would slow a lot of games down. Of course, others' experiences may vary.
I agree that Trapfinding should be a feat. The rogue will always be the best at it, but at least someone else can try to find and disable the traps when he's not around.Bah. As much as I disagree with this, it does seem to be the popular answer. Should DD be kept as a non-class skill for everyone besides rogues, just to give them the edge?
Out of the 11 core classes, IMO only the Rogue should have DD as a class skill.
I would however allow the Ranger to use their Favored Terrain bonus when up against snares (if in the appropriate terrain).
Director of Game Design
|
To be honest,
I have been thinking for a while about giving the ranger trapfinding as a class feature. That said, I still think that only rogues should have DD as a class skill, to give them an edge in that department.
I am, as always, open to thoughts on this matter.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
|
Director of Game Design
|
I've always thought Trapfinding should be a feat, though one with significant pre-reqs. 6 ranks in both Disable Device and Perception, for example. Makes it still a meaningful benefit for Rogues to get it at 1st level as a class feature, without completely denying it for other classes.
Not a bad idea either.. actually. Although I would not give it as a bonus feat to rangers until a slightly later level... say around 4th.
To clarify, this is still just a thought for me right now. I am interested in your ideas.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
|
I've always thought Trapfinding should be a feat, though one with significant pre-reqs. 6 ranks in both Disable Device and Perception, for example. Makes it still a meaningful benefit for Rogues to get it at 1st level as a class feature, without completely denying it for other classes.
I agree it should have significant prerequisites, but by making it 6 ranks, no one can take it until 6th level. I allow trapfinding in my game as a feat, with the prerequisites of 2 ranks in Perception and Disable Device.
As for giving it out as a bonus feat, is that necessary? Characters get a lot of feats as is, with the every other level ...
Out of the 11 core classes, IMO only the Rogue should have DD as a class skill.I would however allow the Ranger to use their Favored Terrain bonus when up against snares (if in the appropriate terrain).
well, that's not my preference, but it's better than what currently exists.
As for giving it out as a bonus feat, is that necessary? Characters get a lot of feats as is, with the every other level ...
I think they're saying a bonus feat to characters who already get it. Otherwise, you're kinda taking something away from the rogue instead of giving potential options to others.
|
|
I like the idea that DD is a class skill for rogues only. I could also see a feat called "trapfinding" having some prq as others have suggested. I think it would be really cool if rogues had the "always-on" chance to find traps. Good idea Robert! I'm not one of the rules lawyer types, but I think that is some great crunch that supports the flavor of the class. If anything it's ideas like this that make me think pfrpg is going to be everything that 4th should have been and then some. I think the racial starting hp's are also a good example of the perfect combo of crunch and flavor. I want to see things keep going in this direction. I am so excited about the feats section now. It's going to be insane :)
I feel Rangers should have Trapfinding in their favored environments.
'Nail', 'head', 'hitting' are words that spring to mind
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
Why not make Trapfinding into a feat, and give it to Rogues as an automatic feat at 1st level?
In the early days of 3rd Edition, "Dragon" magazine published a "how to design feats" article from the design team, and one hallmark was "don't use Feats to undercut the unique strengths
of different classes."Trapfinding, along with monk's slow fall ability and barbarian rage, were given as examples.
Giving trapfinding to non-rogues through feats seems to undermine the game's class system. Which many people feel wouldn't be a bad thing.
(For myself, I really don't see the onus on "class dipping." People in real life, and in fiction, learn the basics of new skills all the time. Career military folks go through specialist schools to get particular training. Surgical techs go through X-Ray training to make themselves more versatile. Why shouldn't Strider take a level of rogue to learn trapfinding? On the other hand, if he wants to concentrate on his swordsmanship, he might dip a level of fighter.)
|
|
Personally, I think traps should be detectable by everyone, not just rogues - just like tracking has become something you can do without the feat.
Instead, grant rogues a bonus to his perception checks to notice traps, or give them an automatic roll (like elves and secret doors).
Monte Cook did just that in Arcana Unearthed/Evolved. Any class can find Traps if they invet the skillpoints. It has never caused a balance issue in the multiple AU/AE games I have run & played in.
This one of the reasons I always liked the Scout class from Complete Adventurer.
Anyway, barring a new rogue/ranger-ish base class, I would definately give the Ranger a trap finding ability. Makes a lot of sense to me.
The Feat idea isn't bad either. Either one would satisfy the OP's issue
I'm really keen on the idea of doing away with 'trapfinding' altogether and just allowing anyone to make the checks. Give rogues (and rangers) a bonus on their Perception checks to find traps equal to their class level. Pretty simple.
Half class level, please: (1) parallels rangers' track bonus; (2) prevents the need to totally re-scale all the trap DCs, especially at higher levels (DC 35 trap at high level becomes DC 50, so only the rogue can find it, so you're right back to where we started -- only rogues would be able to find high-DC traps!).
|
|
I'm really keen on the idea of doing away with 'trapfinding' altogether and just allowing anyone to make the checks. Give rogues (and rangers) a bonus on their Perception checks to find traps equal to their class level. Pretty simple.
Even without the above (half?)-class level bonus, the Rogue should still be the best trapfinder/disarmer, due to the +3 class skill bonus, and the huge amount of skill points/level, which allow him to max out those skills and still have some left over for Acrobatics, Stealth, Use Magic Device, and all other traditional duties.
It's true that under Beta rules, a FighterX/Rogue1 would gain the same one-off +3 class skill bonus as a Rogue(X+1), and be able to keep those two specific skills at the same max ranks, but he would absolutely suck at everything else. No climbing, jumping, swimming, tumbling, riding, healing, knowledge, streetwise, social, or anything else.
If people are upset that their Rogues is being outdone by guys with a quarter of their skill points, then quite frankly, that's an issue with their Rogue.