It's all about the options really. Pathfinder is basically picking up the pieces that 4th ed is throwing out....and this is a sign of just how many pieces are getting thrown.
I am a big planescape fan, so i`m naturally used to the idea of there being numerous planes, or countries with their own themes and rules. I also played a lot of TORG, where this was actually the case on earth after some other dimensions invaded ours.
As to the gunpowder, i think it is nice to have it around. It managed to get into lord of the rings to blow up helms deep wall, so it seems fair to have it in most fantasy settings ("large blast of fire" seems fair to interpret as some sort of bomb, as was seen in the film).
I would say that anyone wanting to lessen the effect of these elements is free to do so. Just stick with one part of the world in the campaign and don't worry about the rest. Our whole campaign is set in one city, thus far and that is the "world" for our party. We see the odd exotic visitor or item, but they are a notable curiosity when they appear.
So, in short, take the bits you like and keep them, throw out the rest. It's all about the options and choice. These days, i`m rather thankful that the choice is there at all.
- Golarion in campaign chronicles setting:
too fragmented, too many things and themes.
One Chinese area, one agypt area, one pirate area, one
ravenloft area, one africa area, eberron machines etc. its nice but
it fails to give the world an idendity.
The campaign book tries to have a finger in every pie, too much is too much.
I also feel that they tried to cram a lot of disparate stuff together. But it's a big world -- your PCs don't have to travel it all in one module!
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- the statue of liberty on page 200 seems a bit misplaced for europeans.
Alaznist is gonna be pissed....
A lot of the complaints are the inevitable kind a "kitchen sink" setting is going to get, but I have to say that Golarion seems more well thought out and natural than most all-inclusive settings. Really, the emphasis on being so inclusive is one of the aspects that most appeals to me.
Honestly, the only pet peeve I have with the setting are the Lovecraftian inclusions, and that's only because they're called by their real names. For me, it breaks the image of Golarion being its own world, but I can certainly see the appeal for others. And really, all I have to do is file the serial numbers off of them(ie: rename them) and I'm prefectly fine.
Strangely enough, I don't have this problem with Baba Yaga, but then I accept her wholeheartedly as part of the D&D multiverse. And if there's one thing I'm obsessive-compulsive about with my "D&D" settings, it's tying all their cosmologies into Planescape(I'm still working over how to keep the Golarion Great Beyond "microcosm" intact while plugging it into the Planescape "macrocosm". Fun stuff.)
A lot of the universities were founded in the high or late middle ages. So, in my opinion, regarding the more open and a little renaissance-like style of PathfinderRPG (or D&D 3.5), it's absolutely necessary to have universities and doctors, magisters and students.
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When I have DMed adventures in Greyhawk, characters would spend years in and around one specific country -- Furyondy or Keoland. The feeling that too many disparate cultures were being crammed together in one place never came up. Consider the size of the world and even a wandering adventurer won't see much of it until they advance in levels.
I understand your complaint but will it really play out like that in a campaign?
A lot of the universities were founded in the high or late middle ages. So, in my opinion, regarding the more open and a little renaissance-like style of PathfinderRPG (or D&D 3.5), it's absolutely necessary to have universities and doctors, magisters and students.
Furthermore, Doctors existed for millennia before that, it's the degree system that hadn't fully developed.
However, in a setting that clearly has an pedagogy along the lines of wizard academies, a medieval university system is certainly implied.
When I have DMed adventures in Greyhawk, characters would spend years in and around one specific country -- Furyondy or Keoland. The feeling that too many disparate cultures were being crammed together in one place never came up. Consider the size of the world and even a wandering adventurer won't see much of it until they advance in levels.
I understand your complaint but will it really play out like that in a campaign?
That's been my experience as well, regardless of the setting... except for Eberron, where travel over long distances is often expected within the scope of a single adventure.
Age of Worms most notably stands out as moving around a lot (compared to my normal compaigns) in recent years, though maybe Against the Giants did as well, though through conveniently placed teleportation circles and whatnot.
Of course, and interesting campaign might include moving through various cultures, and I think I would really enjoy the role playing opportunitites that could come from such diversity.
Personally, I love the multicultural nature of Golarion. The fact that there's an Egypt area, an oriental area, etc. is a major strength. It means that if a player wants to play someone from one of these alternate but very popular cultures, they can, and I'm free to set campaigns there as well. Each region has its own thing going on, so if you don't like one area, just avoid it.
I find settings like Dragonlance, which have very little cultural variety and a central story that encompasses the entire world to be a little on the boring side. Once you get done playing through the major storyline, or get bored with the core region, it leaves you wondering what's left. With Golarion there's a lot left. For me, this setting has the appeal the Forgotten Realms used to have.
How is it the Age Of Lost Omens, yet the entire COTCT path is all about harrowing and predicting the future?
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- The doctors degree. There are some NPCs with a doctor degree but no explanation where it comes from or how it is gained.
Is it a Phd? a MD? Are there universities in Golarion?
IMO a doctor degree does not fit in a fantasy campaign world.
Don't care about this one. One way or the other.
- gunpowder
Ironicly I am a fan of cannons but loath personal firearms. I think mostly cause I like ship combat with cannons to much is why I favor them.
- Golarion in campaign chronicles setting:
too fragmented, too many things and themes.
One Chinese area, one agypt area, one pirate area, one
ravenloft area, one africa area, eberron machines etc. its nice but
it fails to give the world an idendity.
I felt the exact opposite about it. Now I do agree I wish they was spread out a little more but I do like that there is huge difference cultural differences. To me it makes it feel more like a real world.
- Worst of all: the names. They sound awful for europeans.
I would prefer are more Tolkien-like-style.
I like the names, I get tired of names always sounding European or some such. Same goes with your more generic fantasy names.
- the statue of liberty on page 200 seems a bit misplaced for europeans.
Don't see it and still don't see it, other than it is a big statue and female with a torch it is nothing like Liberty.
- Dont make the same mistake like WoC. The introduction is a bit like to overegg the pudding. WoC says permanently "4E is the best".
Dont fall into the same habbit.
Now this I agree can be a danger but I am giving Paizo a lot of faith as they have not disappointed yet. But worst case I just change stuff anyways which I always do no matter how good something is anyways. Still even using just 50% of the world saves a ton of work.
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""Worst of all: the names. They sound awful for europeans."
No they don't. They may sound awful for americans.
Why ae you assuming the OP is an American?
As an American the names seem fine to me. They tend to evoke what they are supposed to, a familiar but subtly different flavor. That is, they evoke real world images but are just different enough that we know they aren't real.
My friend once played a character named Akira Jörgenson.
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For those who think they are cramming to much into the base world I did a comparison to real world analogs.
The northern portion of the map is Roughly 2040 Miles(3283Km)wide by 1680 Miles (2703Km) tall For a area of 3,427,200 miles Sq (7,606,711 KM sq )
The southern Portion is 1440 miles (2317Km)wide and 1680 miles (2703 Km)For an Area of 2,419,200 miles Sq (6,266,527Km sq)
For a combined total of 13,873,238 Km sq
The ENTIRE EU is only 1,669,807 Miles Sq(4,324,782Km sq)
The Entire USA (all 50 States) is 3,794,083 miles sq (9,826,630Km sq)
So what we have is a game world the size of Europe and the US and thats Just the Base
I think that as far a generic fantasy worlds go, it is quite good. I too like the multicultural feel of the setting. As someone else said, on FR you can literally travel a couple thousand miles east and south of Waterdeep and still be in pseudo-medieval Europe. Nothing wrong with pseudo-medieval Europe, jut that there is too darn much of it.
My only gripe with Golorion are some of the names which for various reasons I just don't like. Fantasy naming is more an art than a science in my experience and I am very nitpicky about the names of nations and individuals.
Here are some Golorion names I don't like:
Cheliax (sounds artifial, don't like the X's unless there is strong precedent)
Osirion (Don't see why a fantasy Egypt without an Osiris needs such a recognizable lifting of the name)
Norgorber (ugghh....)
Xon-Kuthon (ugghh....)
Honestly, the above and a couple others are all that really stood out to me. IMO Golorion has relatively few god-awful names. I am used to seeing a large number of crap names in most fantasy settings.
Here are a couple non-Pathfinder setting bad names:
Ivan and Pikel Bouldershoulder (just awful on so many levels)
Cattie-brie (awful unless there is a norm that makes such a name fit)
Jilseponie (awful unless there is a norm that makes such a name fit)
Bestesbulzibar (just name the thing Baalzebul and be done with it)
I guess I picked on Salvatore because I really don't like how he names things.
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Here are a couple non-Pathfinder setting bad names:
Ivan and Pikel Bouldershoulder (just awful on so many levels)
Cattie-brie (awful unless there is a norm that makes such a name fit)
Jilseponie (awful unless there is a norm that makes such a name fit)
Bestesbulzibar (just name the thing Baalzebul and be done with it)I guess I picked on Salvatore because I really don't like how he names things.
To thrown in another Salvatore example. His piece in the Planet Stories Worlds of Their Own antho has an elven ranger called Tuntun. Uggh...
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- Golarion in campaign chronicles setting:
too fragmented, too many things and themes.
One Chinese area, one agypt area, one pirate area, one
ravenloft area, one africa area, eberron machines etc. its nice but
it fails to give the world an idendity.
The campaign book tries to have a finger in every pie, too much is too much.Why Baba Yaga? It is a famous myth in russia.
I think its been pointed out but one of the strengths of the setting is its diversity. Its certainly no worse than the patchwork that was FR (I can't speak to its current status as I haven't read much). The world doesn't come with a grand arching narrative/identity and while that doesn't work well for novels it does work well for gaming as everyone can get the type of adventures they want out of it.
Wow. I couldn't disagree more with the OP. Golarion is a splendorous fusion of all of the most popular D&D settings and that's the number one reason I love it.
Middle Earth? It's already there for anyone to use with relative ease--D&D isn't LOTR in theme or tone.
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for the record, Baba Yaga has been in other Dungeons and Dragons products over the years. I recall at least one Dungeon adventure that featured her hut.
It was also in one of the novels that took place in Rashemen - one of Elaine Cunningham's books about the rogue drow chick that moves to the surface. That's about as memorable as I can make it.
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It's funny that I totally didn't see that as "the statue of liberty", even having grown up in the States, but I can see it now that you mention it. I guess I initially saw it as more akin to the Colossus of Rhodes.
- the statue of liberty on page 200 seems a bit misplaced for europeans.
Of course, there are two Lady Liberties in France as well. : )
And if there's one thing I'm obsessive-compulsive about with my "D&D" settings, it's tying all their cosmologies into Planescape(I'm still working over how to keep the Golarion Great Beyond "microcosm" intact while plugging it into the Planescape "macrocosm". Fun stuff.)
My random advice on this point: seperate, divergent realities linked via the ether gaps of the deep ethereal. That's how I'd link campaign worlds with unique cosmologies that were designed from the start as being their own cosmological thing.
*looks at own campaign* I adore ether gaps. I've used them -a lot-. Though it's something that I've only ever toyed with in print in the Keeper Ecology a year or two ago.
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Here are a couple non-Pathfinder setting bad names:
Ivan and Pikel Bouldershoulder (just awful on so many levels)
Cattie-brie (awful unless there is a norm that makes such a name fit)
Jilseponie (awful unless there is a norm that makes such a name fit)
Bestesbulzibar (just name the thing Baalzebul and be done with it)I guess I picked on Salvatore because I really don't like how he names things.
To thrown in another Salvatore example. His piece in the Planet Stories Worlds of Their Own antho has an elven ranger called Tuntun. Uggh...
Wow, I just realized how much I don't like his naming conventions. Just bad.
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To paraphrase the Wikipedia page, the doctorate degree is (for European universities) a Medieval invention, co-opted from the Muslim madrasahs' tradition of only allowing proven, licensed teachers to teach at the highest levels. The terms "Master" and "Doctor" once had the same meaning, but came to differentiate to award higher esteem to the doctoral degree.
Given that Golarion is a (largely) typical pseudo-Medieval setting, why not have the beginnings of great Universities and the professors and doctors that would come along with them?
Personally, I love the multicultural nature of Golarion. The fact that there's an Egypt area, an oriental area, etc. is a major strength.I couldn't agree more. It gives Golarion a much more realistic feel then, say Eberron of Faerun, which both seem to me like they have a single culture across the entire world.
Huh? Are you saying that the culture of the Demon Wastes, Aerenal, Argonessen, Xen'drik and Sarlona are all the same? And likewise for Mulhorand, Daggerdale, Lantan and Thay?
A diversity of cultures is good. My only quibble with Golarion is that it seems like they tried a little bit too hard to make sure the country can be summed up in one or two words. E.g. "This is the Egyptian country, and this is the atheist country, and this is the gothic horror country, and this is the pirate country, and this is the Arabian Nights country, and this is the devil-worshipping country, and this is the fake god country, and this is the gunpowder country, and [etc.]" In some cases, I think it lacks a bit of subtlety compared to some of the cultures on Eberron.
It's still a great setting, though!
I liked the Cimmerian knock-offs (Keldan). Really =)
How else would you makea Conan clone unless you had a Cimmerian clone race?
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Personally, I love the multicultural nature of Golarion. The fact that there's an Egypt area, an oriental area, etc. is a major strength.I couldn't agree more. It gives Golarion a much more realistic feel then, say Eberron of Faerun, which both seem to me like they have a single culture across the entire world.
Can't speak for Eberron, but my experience with Forgotten Realms has proven to the contrary. Hordelands to Waterdeep, Silver Marches to Chessenta, each land has a different feel to it, different cultures, different threats, and so on.
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Only thing about the setting that bugs me is too many places are ruled by councils of some sort. The prevailing system of government imho should be monarchies.
Plus Andoran loses a bit of its specialness if there's a dozen other nations ruled by a council.
I also can't find a nation besides Kyonin where there's a 'Good' King or Queen (I'm not counting Mendev in this) but where's our Queen Victoria? Someone the PCs might be proud to pledge themselves to.
I really, really like the setting. I was coming to Pathfinder as a "default" to get away from FR for "just a little while" until I got over the shock of the 4e changes, and I found a setting that really fascinated me.
Some of the things I love include the fact that there is indeed a democratic republic, a government type not seen much in fantasy, that there are a lot of real world "flavors" without the "cut and paste from the encyclopedia" feel of some of the "real world" settings of 2nd edition, and the fact that things like Osirion are logically included (I loved Mulhorand, for instance, but it was always hard for me to picture it in its "Dynastic" state when all of the nations it traded with seemed to have moved 500 years past it in terms of RW advances and the like).
I kind of like the quick summaries for the nations. I guess they could be taken as too simplistic, but I have noticed that many of those quick summaries don't portray some of the subtleties of a given nation, which is as it should be.
For example, Andoran is, for the most part, a nation of "good guys," but they do have the problem of being willing to undermine other nations to enforce their ideals, and they clearly have a resource chewing habits. I like that, while they are still clearly "good guys," they aren't a Utopia that has it all figured out, and most of the nations are like that. It lends itself to a more nuanced feel for the world for me.
Yeah, I will admit, there are a few places I trip over the names though. I came from the Realms, so I get convoluted naming conventions, but in a few places, there are just a few awkward structures that don't so much pull me out of the setting, but that do kind of make me regret not practicing them before I saw them "in session."
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In Tarek's defense, I figure that everyone will hate something about GOlarion as published.
To this I give my stock answer: take it our of your campaign.
Creative Director
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Their world is huge! As big or bigger than Earth I believe. We haven't seen all of it though.And then there's Orv... I think that James said that there is one Orv vault that's as big as Varisia, and there's one that is the size of an entire sea.
There's more than one Orv vault larger than Varisia.
And gunpowder's gone about as far as it's gonna go in Golarion for now, in any case...
One of the reasons I'm loving Golarion is because of all the possibilities. The world feels interesting and fresh. Additionally, as Kruel mentioned, it is easy enough to remove anything that you, as a GM, does not like. That is the beauty of DnD.
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To the OP
I'm sorry you feel the setting expands beyond the European for you.
The names in certain areas are intended to evoke the feel of different countries on Earth in Golarion. Obviously intentional on the part of the creators of Golarion. From my understanding, Golarion was the home campaign for Paizo, not having been developed on the Fly like Eberron was, but merely converted from their own system.
To the Others,
I love Golarion, and I'm coming from Eberron. Eberron definitely had different identifiable cultures, especially after you got out of Khorvaire. Valenar were definitely Arabic in feel. Reidra had an eastern/Asian feel to it.
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Further thoughts on Cattie-brie...
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Well, Ocelot Manchego sounds fine as a name for me.Swashbuckling type of character, in the lines of: "My name is Ocelot Manchego. You killed my father. Prepare to die!" ;P
"You must search for a man with six fingers; he serves Leo, The Stinking Bishop..."
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To paraphrase the Wikipedia page, the doctorate degree is (for European universities) a Medieval invention, co-opted from the Muslim madrasahs' tradition of only allowing proven, licensed teachers to teach at the highest levels. The terms "Master" and "Doctor" once had the same meaning, but came to differentiate to award higher esteem to the doctoral degree.
Given that Golarion is a (largely) typical pseudo-Medieval setting, why not have the beginnings of great Universities and the professors and doctors that would come along with them?
I second this. Universities were already active in Europe in the 1200s. Or even earlier, I don't remember exactly.
I wouldn't call it way too low. Sure, standard Point Buy (25) gives you lower stats on average (I just ran a test with 10.000 runs in excel, and 4d6 averages out on about 30,5 point standard point buy), but that's not such a huge difference, and point buy gives you total control over how you distribute your points, and gives you a guaranteed power level.
For example, stats like 14, 14, 11, 11, 9, 7 can happen with 4d6. They're not so great, but they're not bad enough to warrant a reroll, because you do have a 14, and the total bonus is +1. What will you play with that?
And while 4d6 has higher PB totals, that doesn't necessarily mean it has higher stats. 25 PB gives you 16,14,13,10,10,8; and you roll 16,15,13,11,11,9 - that's 30 points! But the total bonuses are the same (+5).
And, of course, you can decide whether you want few great stats or several decent ones. You can decide what you play and then pick your stats. If you roll, you might end up with an 18. Great! But the rest is only 8s to 12s. You wanted to play a nice mêlée cleric, but not with those stats - you'd either lack wisdom or strength or constitution, not to mention charisma for some divine feats. Have a good time as a wizard or sorcerer.