drashal's page

My comment wasn't towards the OP.

And I can understand PFS but why ban it from the PRD? It should be available to everyone else, just like the rest of the core rules. The ARG is on the PRD but not PFS. Seems unnecessary.

the ARG adds a rule set to help DMs make upgraded monsters in a coherent manor where as Mythic adds too much power gaming into the mix if alowed as core rules

Currently most DMs I know and have contact with allow any thing from the PRD , but restrict any thing from other sources on a as needed biases. put mythic into the PRD means I have to go in and restrict sections of it. Which means potential arguments form players. ( I admit, I am just trying to cut down on my headaches but hey i can wish)

AS for the Anime is bad line ,I never said that as an fan boy I love anime , I just stated that the style of the rules comes off as very anime or wire-fu. I am not seeing a lot of western heroics in the way the rules read but that is my opinion, and I may be missing something

Is it just me or does this rule add on come off as Pathfinder the ANIME . Not that that is a bad per say but the rules read off as a way to make Pc to show up an in episodes of Either Bastard or Slayers If run at the common level and Record of the Lotus War if run at Limited. Dot get me wrong I would love to have my players have a " we have 10000 men and the best castle in the kingdom here" and 5 min later the messenger arrives and announces that the BBE is coming by him self and the whole castle is in fear because they know they are going to die. That and finally having a rule for the " I borrowed 5 sp and must repay it so i can not die no mater how bad it gets rule. I see this as a fun add rule set but i hope it doe not get made part of the PRD or added into Pathfinder Society rules

Ok having read all of this thread i see that some of you have problems running high level adventures, due to well my players can just over come any thing I put in front of them.

lets start by giving you some easy non- a-hat ways of blocking some of it

First remember for every spell they cast, every potion they drink ,every scroll they use, every charge of a wand is one more they don't have when the other shoe drops on them.

Second do remember INT 12 is average intelligence this means that your BBEG and his minions are not dumb they will react to the players actions

if they are doing the lets leave and recharge our spells drill, have your dungeon prepare for them and I do mean prepare. barricades , extra traps , removal of key items (what your house gets broken into and the guys leave after cleaning out the living room, your going to stay and leave all your most valued goods for them to come back and take ), reinforcements. Example: The party sets up a Magnificent Mansion have your BBEG minions set an ambush right out side the door (the door is detectable with see invisibility

Flying (this seams to be one of the early complaints about "high level" players)
sure they can fly over you swamp you have layed out for them but do remember they are not the only thing that fly on this world and usually the players are a lot clumsier than the things that are in their natural arena

also both fly and overland flight are SINGLE person spells that means one spell slot per casting (and overland only affects the caster)

Telport and greater telport (i see a lot of you hate this spell)

first of is your BBEG a caster then you can bet most areas that the players would port to are going to be either guarded or warded (even if its just an alarm spell) , example players telport into BBEG guys storage room (its out way and not a lot of minions go into it) our BBEG has put a contingency spell on it that if the password is not said in say 2 rounds of entering the room it goes off (how nasty the spell going off is up to you)

as for escaping with it rember everyone must be touching as a BBEG I would be thinking OW PLEASE cluster up.

Third and this one is big one , your players are now in the BIG Leagues .iE the risk is big so is the rewards, players will die some of them very messily, but those of you who are afraid of killing your players should not be, yes it happens but some of the best stories are not how they kicked the BBEG tail but how they tried and failed

i need to now if i stat blocked this right i don't need feed back yet on the npc its self i know the tactics and background is not done i am mainly worried on the formatting and yes i know the bold sections are not their they did not copy over

Mythan van sithdren cr 14
XP 38400
Female elf fighter 2, sorcerer 6, eldritch knight 6
AL Ne medium humanoid (elf)
Init +5; Senses: lowlight; Perception +2
=====
Defense
=====
AC 30, touch 17, flat-footed 24 (+10 armor, +4 deflection, +5 Dex, +1 dodge)
Hp 103 (2d10+6d6+6d10+28)
Fort +10, Ref +10, Will +7
Defensive Abilities evasion, + 1 will vs. fear +2 will vs. enchantments, +2 luck vs. poisons (spider), If you move more than 5 feet this turn, you gain
20% concealment for 1 round against ranged attacks. Immune sleep; web Resist electrical (10)

=====
Offense
=====
Speed 20 ftx4.1/2 speeds in webs Climb 20ft

Melee +2 Brilliant energy bastard sword of shock +18/+`13/+8 (1d10+8+1d6 (electrical))

Bloodline Spell-Like Abilities (CL 11th; concentration +17)

10/day Electrical elemental ray (sp) -ranged touch attack (1d6+5)

Sorcerer Spells Known (CL11th; concentration +17) spell failure rate 15/0
5th (5/day) -- Cone of Cold(dc 22), Telekinesis (dc 22 ,cmb 18)
4th (7/day) -- Elemental Body I, Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser, Wall of Fire (dc21)
3rd (8/day) -- dispel magic lighting bolt (dc 20), non detection, Suggestion (dc 20),
2nd (8/day) -- Blur, Darkvision, Invisibility, Protection from Arrows, Rope Trick, Scorching Ray*,
1st (8/day) -- burning hands*(dc 18), Enlarge person, expedious retreat, feather fall, jump, sleep(dc 18)
0--Detect Magic, Mage Hand, Message, Open/Close, Prestidigitation, Ray of Frost, Read Magic, Touch of Fatigue (dc 17)

=====
Statistics
=====
Str 19, Dex 20, Con14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 25
Base Atk +11; CMB +15; CMD 35
Feats Arcane Armor Mastery(b) , Arcane Armor Training , Armor Proficiency (Heavy) , Armor Proficiency (Light) , Armor Proficiency (Medium) , Dodge , Eschew Materials , Exotic Weapon Proficiency(bastard sword)(b), Greater Weapon Focus (bastard sword), Mobility , Shield Proficiency , Spring Attack , Weapon Focus (bastard sword) (b), Weapon Specialization (bastard sword) , Wind Stance(b)
Skills Acrobatics +4, Climb +20, Fly +17, Knowledge (arcane) +10, Spellcraft +17, Swim +6 Racial Modifiers +8 climb
Traits Deft Dodger (Combat) - +1 reflex saves Focused Mind (Magic) - +1 on Concentration checks. Concentration is always a class skill for you
Languages Common, Draconic, Elven
SQ (elemental bloodline (air))
Combat Gear +4 mithril breastplate, +2 brilliant energy batared sword of shock,+4 ring of protection, ring of evasion; Cloak of arachnid, 3 potions of cure moderate wounds +4 Belt of physical perfection ,+6 Headband of alluring charisma Other Gear
=====
Special Abilities
BRAVERY (ex) - As a fighter of level 2 you get +1 bonus to will saves vs. fear.
DIVERSE TRAINING (ex) - An eldritch knight adds his level to any levels of fighter he might have for the purpose of meeting the prerequisites for feats. He also adds his level to any levels in an arcane spell casting class for the purpose of meeting the prerequisites for feats
Bloodline spell modification (Su) both burning hands and scorching ray are converted to electrical damage and subtype is electrical
Arcane Armor Mastery (ex) (swift) as a swift action reduce spell failure by 20% for one round
Evasions (su) on a successful reflex save take no damage instead of half

Elemental body I stats modifiers all give darkvison 60ft
Air elemental: Dex 22 reflex +11, ac 32 touch 17, flat 26 (+2 natural) whirlwind (10–20 ft. high, 1d4+4 damage, DC12); fly 60 perfect
Earth elemental: Str 21 +1 to melee damage ac 34 touch 17 flat 26 (+4 natural) earth glide
Fire elemental: Dex 22 reflex +11, ac 32 touch 17, flat 26 (+2 natural), resist fire 20, vulnerability to cold, burn (1d4, DC 11)
Water elemental con 16 fort 11 hp 117 ac 34 touch 17 flat 26 (+4 natural). Swim 60 feet, vortex (10–20 ft. high, 1d6+4 damage, DC13); water breathing

Burn (Ex) A creature with the burn special attack deals fire damage in addition to damage dealt on a successful hit in melee. Those affected by the burn ability must also succeed on a Reflex save or catch fire, taking the listed damage for additional 1d 4 rounds at the start of its turn (DC 10 + 1/2 burning creature’s racial HD + burning creature’s Con modifier). A burning creature can attempt a new save as a full-round action. Dropping and rolling on the ground grants a +4 bonus on this save. Creatures that hit a burning creature with natural weapons or unarmed attacks take fire damage as though hit by the burning creature and must make a Reflex save to avoid catching on fire
Whirlwind (Su) Some creatures can transform themselves into whirlwinds and remain in that form for up to 1 round for every 2 HD they have. If the creature has a fly speed, it can continue to fly at that same speed while in whirlwind form, otherwise it gains a fly speed equal to its base land speed (average maneuverability) while in whirlwind form. The whirlwind is always 5 feet wide at its base, but its height and width at the top vary from creature to creature (minimum 10 feet high). A whirlwind’s width at its peak is always equal to half of its height. The creature controls the exact height, but it must be at least 10 feet high. The whirlwind form does not provoke attacks of opportunity, even if the creature enters the space another creature occupies. Another creature might be caught in the whirlwind if it touches or enters the whirlwind, or if the whirlwind moves into or through a creature’s space. A creature in whirlwind form cannot make its normal attacks and does not threaten the area around it. Creatures one or more size categories smaller than the whirlwind might take damage when caught in the whirlwind (generally damage equal to the monster’s slam attack for a creature of its size) and may be lifted into the air. An affected creature must succeed on a Reflex save (DC 10 + half monster’s HD + the monster’s Strength modifier) when it comes into contact with the whirlwind or take damage as if it were hit by the whirlwind creature’s slam attack. It must also succeed on a second Reflex save or be picked up bodily and held suspended in the powerful winds, automatically taking the indicated damage each round. A creature that can fly is allowed a Reflex save each round to escape the whirlwind. The creature still takes damage but can leave if the save is successful. Creatures trapped in the whirlwind cannot move except to go where the whirlwind carries them or to escape the whirlwind. Trapped creatures can otherwise act normally, but must succeed on a Concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to cast a spell. Creatures caught in the whirlwind take a –4 penalty to Dexterity and a –2 penalty on attack rolls. The whirlwind can have only as many creatures trapped inside at one time as will fit inside the whirlwind’s volume. The whirlwind can eject any carried creatures whenever it wishes as a free action, depositing them in its space. If the whirlwind’s base touches the ground, it creates a swirling cloud of debris. This cloud is centered on the creature and has a diameter equal to half the whirlwind’s height. The cloud obscures all vision, including darkvison, beyond 5 feet. Creatures 5 feet away have concealment, while those farther away have total concealment. Those caught in the cloud of debris must succeed on a Concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to cast a spell.
Earth Glide (Ex) A burrowing earth elemental can pass through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water. If protected against fire damage, it can even glide through lava. It’s burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other sign of its presence. A move earth spell cast on an area containing a burrowing earth elemental flings the elemental back 30 feet, stunning the creature for 1 round unless it succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.
Vortex (Su) water elemental can create a whirlpool as a standard action, at will. This ability functions identically to the whirlwind special attack, but can only form underwater and cannot leave the water.

Some people only learn things by repeatedly attending the special course on filling out new character sheets.

that is the best way of saying you died go back to square one i have ever seen

Also one other point if any of the walls are painted then more than likey you are not going to be detecting though them any way due to the lead in the paints , lead free paints did not exist really before the 20th century. Thats realy going to mess up that spell more than any thing else

My house is a 1880s Victorian with plaster and lath. Doesn't mean it has ft thick walls.

no probably not but late Victorian housing is the start of the framed construction era of building if you want examples of medevil buildings/ look at some of the historical re-enactment towns in the UK most of the structures there have 1 to 2 thick walls depending on the building mats

You are nuts if you think that people's houses, at any time in history, had stone walls a foot thick.

i can think of several designs that are just off the top of my head look at the cliff buildings in western us for a good example

I know that their is to be a spell pouch type item for the Alchemist but aer we getting an other new items in the Alchemist list and if so can we have a preview of them or at least some of them so we have an idea if they greatly improve the class

Agreed on the use of nondetection, but this should up the CR of the trap.

Strongly disagree on magical traps that detect the characters and activate before the players have any chance whatsoever of disabling them. This is, in my opinion, abusive. If the players have no chance to detect and disable then it isn't a trap.

i did not mean to imply that the party could not detect them but to imply that they would have to do real searching to find them .ex the niched stairs could easy be found and even has a logical reason why the party rogue would pick it up by trap seance ( ex the stair seams to have a hollow sound)

Here is the Detect Magic spell description for reference.

** spoiler omitted **
... Does anyone know of either an official ruling (from 3.5 or Pathfinder), or a textual reason why Detect Magic can't sense Magical Traps and/or magically Invisible creatures? It makes little sense to me that a cantrip should do either, but I don't see anything in the text that prevents it.

I house ruled in 3.5 games that you can't detect the magic aura of anything you can't already see, but that is not in the text at all.

P.S. If any of the Paizo staff want to weigh in on this issue, I would welcome it.

Fist things Fist a magic trap builder that did not use non-detection on their trap is a nutter... that's a simple and easy way to get rid of the aura. another is to place the alarm spell or the base of the trigger spell out of Line of sight, but still in line of effect ex... in a nich below a stair riser facing away from the players.

as for invisibility their is nothing to see so how would you see the objects aura

I would love to agree and say, "Play what you will."

As a matter of fact I do.

However the poster of this thread made this to prove to the group that rogue was useless so they would ban me from playing one.

Then the DM has something to fear from you.....

and anyway I consider rogues essential to the games I run, mind you I have a copy of Grimtooth's Traps on my shelf for players who fell that they can go with out a rogue... or should decide to play the lets set every trap off with magic at range.

You could always save truly epic battles as gift wrapping for presents to members of your gamer group.

"What the?!!? You wrapped my present in the battle that killed my halfling cleric!?!?!?"

that's Just evil man i will have to do that to some of my pcs.

as for being green well that's all dependent on the amount of recycled vs new mats that go into the paper , but over all paper is one of the greener products in common usage , (is fully bio degradable, uses a renewable product as its base and if done right adds little to the carbon foot path of the end user.

also at 4.00 it cheeper than an office supply store which you can only get sheets cut at 27" and will run you 15.00+ for just twice the size

Lol sorry i spotted my mistake and made a second one but the costs for adding magic item ability to an item are the same as if crafting them just you do not have to have the feats required for item creation.

Wolf Alexander Vituschek wrote:

Hi,

if you designate an existing magic item to be your bonded object, lets say a sun blade, how does this work with adding magic abilities.
What do you have to pay to upgrade it, which caster level, etc...

unfortunaly it does not work like that. what would happen is at 1st lv you would take bonded object short sword or bastard sword then when the wizard hits 5th lv ( ie the min for both daylight and craft armor and weapons ) is of good alinment and spends the 25,335 gp he can add the sundlade quality to his focus

note he does not have to have the feat craft armor and weapons to do this .

opps my bad i miss read that..

If a bonded object is damaged, it is restored to full hit points the next time the wizard prepares his spells. If the object of an arcane bond is lost or destroyed, it can be replaced after 1 week in a special ritual that costs 200 gp per wizard level plus the cost of the masterwork item. This ritual takes 8 hours to complete. Items replaced in this way do not possess any of the additional enchantments of the previous bonded item. A wizard can designate an existing magic item as his bonded item. This functions in the same way as replacing a lost or destroyed item except that the new magic item retains its abilities while gaining the benefits and drawbacks of becoming a bonded item.

this is how

Hi,

if you designate an existing magic item to be your bonded object, lets say a sun blade, how does this work with adding magic abilities.
What do you have to pay to upgrade it, which caster level, etc...

unfortunaly it does not work like that. what would happen is at 1st lv you would take bonded object short sword or bastard sword then when the wizard hits 5th lv ( ie the min for both daylight and craft armor and weapons ) is of good alinment and spends the 25,335 gp he can add the sundlade quality to his focus

note he does not have to have the feat craft armor and weapons to do this .

Then us Pcs were living in fear too long. We had to our Bag of holding behind in the head quarters because we were resting in rope trick...Anyway another interesting question what happens when an Antimagic field is brought up in a rope trick or Mages Magnificient Mansion

I would have all the occupants fall out of the location until the field goes away , that way you cant have the permanent prison by sealing the door but that's my call

So, in 3.5 you used search, which was a standard action for a 5-foot square, to find traps. However, with Search being rolled into perception with pathfinder this is no longer specified. I can't find it, but does it state anywhere that this is still the case? The Perception skill text seems to vaguely indicate that it might be reactive.

So reactive perception check to notice traps, or active searching?

under skills for perception is

Action: Most Perception checks are reactive, made in
response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching
for stimulus is a move action.

and under the rogue class we have

Trap Spotter (Ex): Whenever a rogue with this talent
comes within 10 feet of a trap, she receives an immediate
Perception skill check to notice the trap. This check should
be made in secret by the GM.

with this i would say that you have to be Intentionally searching for traps to find them unless you have the trap spoter class feature

In other words, Mithral is hard enough to work that the act of working it into anything makes it masterwork?

i would say yes

form a rp standpoint it takes a lot of skill to work mithral and the other rare materials. heck i would almost have the pc's have to track down a specialty smith to have the item crafted.

I just have a quick question. What can and can’t you fit into a bag of holding? Can you stuff a human sized ghoul? Can you stuff a horse? If I were going to put an umbrella into a bag of holding, would I have to close it? Could I stick an open umbrella into a bag of holding? Inquiring minds want to know, because one of the other players in the group I am in has a bag of holding with a few ghouls in it. He is a dread necromancer, and those ghouls are his universal disposal unit. He sics them on enemies, feeds corpses we need to dispose of to them, etc. They are a hungry bunch of hyenas to say the least. I don’t know if it is a type one or type two bag.

Since I am another player I have not said anything It’s the DM’s place to, but I want to know if he is getting away with murder? Well I know he is, in the game, but what do the rules say?

personaly i have one question are the ghouls contortionists becust while yes you have a lot of space you still have to get the item past the opening of the bag

This appears to be a common cloth sack about 2 feet by 4 feet in size

so you got to get ghoul past a 2 wide hole this is no easy task if they are med size or bigger , so no you horse will not go in and your umbrella will need to be closed

Here's another one- When pricing anything other than armor and shields, mithral costs 500gp/lb. Items made from mithral weigh 1/2 their regular weight. When I figure the cost, am I using the original pre-mithral weight, or the new made-of-mithral weight? Logic would say the new weight because that's how much mithral I'm buying to make my item.

This comes up because I wanted a mithral dagger. A dagger normally weighs 1 lb so I figured a mithral one would weigh 1/2 pound. 1/2 lb of mithral costs 250gp (and includes the price of masterwork), plus 2 for the base price of a dagger. That seems like 252gp for a mithral dagger.

Wait! A regular masterwork dagger costs 302! And the mithril one is harder, lighter and counts as silver vs. damage resistance. Mechanics-wise that's all wrong. But logically, why would I pay for a pound of mithril (500gp) when I'm only using 1/2?

because it includes the masterwork cost so you end up paying 300 gp for the master working and 200 gp for the mithril so you are still geting a discount. also i would base the weight on the pre reduction weight just to keep the items more expensive(aka more rare)

It will be interesting to compare this with the PF Final Shadowdancer in KQ #10 this month.

finally got mine.

while the new spell add ons are nice, the movement issue still is a porblem. it way too slow for a movment specialist class.
the issues i still see are.

1. ifs a standard action cast time for diminsional door

2 you can do no actions till the next round after exiting.

3. the pet is more of a hernderence that a help.

228. your entire coloring is as a negative image

ill come back and # in a bit

216. when bleeding your blood flow in the opposing direction of gravity

217. smoke comes out you your ears when angered

218. you smell like peppermint

219. green mold from on the out side of your clothing , in splotchy patterns and only the outer most layer.

220. water will not come within 1" of you even under water but this does not allow water breathing

221. your blood glows for 1d6 mins after leaving your body

222 your skin is florescent and so is your hair but in a clashing color

193 . your blood turns to red sand on exposure to air.

194. you have a birthmark that looks like its being branded into your skin at all times , and occasionally it give of a burnt meat smell

195. your body is covered in a geometric pattern that looks like open wounds but does not bleed.

196. you have a tattoo that is a message /prophecy that grows by one symbol per year

197. your palms a covered in a fine fur that grows back in 1 min if shaved off.

198. when you blow your nose you produce almost a quart of mucus.

199. your bare feet leave flaming foot prints that do no harm to anything and vanish after 30 seconds

200. you randomly have small bugs and worms crawl out from the openings in your garments

drashal wrote:

Shadowdancer

Skills: Stealth 5 ranks, Perform (dance) 2 ranks.

I think you're underselling the skill requirement.

In 3.5, the earliest anyone could qualify for this PrC was 7th level, but you've brought it down to 5th level. I think I would bump Stealth back up to 7 ranks to keep it in line with 3.5.

I also think that 2 ranks is not enough for Perform (dance).

ok this a direct copy from the PFWE for the requirements Personally I will up the requirements. Because i agree with you on that point.

as for the original you had a movement class that had a standard action to make move action (aka casting a limited distance dimensional door), a sucktaculur pet that was too week and had a nasty xp penalty if it died.

First off I know the beta testing is closed but it took my a bit to get this tried in my games.
This is my redesign of the shadowdancer class
I love the concept of the class (a fast movment specialists with some add ons) but the class is very clunky to use and very slow for a movment specialist that and the pet made no sense in the class .

Shadowdancer
Hit Die: d8

To qualify to become a shadowdancer, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Skills: Stealth 5 ranks, Perform (dance) 2 ranks.
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility

Class Skills:
The shadowdancer’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Acrobatics (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Search (Int), Sleight of Hand (Dex), and Stealth (Dex).
Skill Points at Each Level: 6 + Int modifier.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Shadowdancers are proficient with the club, crossbow (hand, light, or heavy), dagger (any type), dart, mace, morningstar, quarterstaff, rapier, sap, shortbow (normal and composite), and short sword. Shadowdancers are proficient with light armor but not with shields.

Class abilities:

Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

Darkness (Sp): Once per day per shadowdancer class level, the shadowdancer can cast darkness with a caster level equal to ½ the shadowdancers level with a minimum of level of 1.

Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level, a shadowdancer gains evasion. If exposed to any effect that normally allows her to attempt a Reflex saving throw for half damage, she takes no damage with a successful saving throw. The evasion ability can only be used if the shadowdancer is wearing light armor or no armor.

Darkvision (Su): At 2nd level, a shadowdancer can see in the dark as though she were permanently under the effect of a darkvision spell.

[/b]Uncanny Dodge (Ex): [/b]Starting at 2nd level, a shadowdancer retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) regardless of being caught f lat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. (She still loses any Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.) If a character gains uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below).

Shadow Illusion (Sp): When a shadowdancer reaches 3rd level, she can create visual illusions. This ability’s effect is identical to that of the arcane spell silent image and may be employed once per day per 3 class levels.

Dance of the Shadows (Su): At 4th level, a shadowdancer can, as part of a move action, make a jump from a shadow to another shadow. The movement is as dimensional door in that it is instantaneous. The shadowdancer must make a Perform (dance) check vs. DCs based on the chart below. If the shadow dancer fails the roll by less than 5 they make the jump but take 1d6 temporary damage per 10ft attempted. If they fail by more than 5, they must make a Fort save of 15 plus the amount missed by or be Exhausted in addition to the damage taken.

Base jump of 10 feet or less: DC 10
Per additional 10 feet : +5 dc
Change direction: +5 dc
Jumping into your own shadow : +10 dc
Into an occupied square: +10 dc

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 5th level, a shadowdancer can no longer be flanked. This defense denies rogues the ability to use f lank attacks to sneak attack the shadowdancer. The exception to this defense is that a rogue at least four levels higher than the shadowdancer can flank her (and thus sneak attack her). If a character gains uncanny dodge (see above) from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge, and the levels from those classes stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.

Aura of the Night (Su): At 6th level the shadowdancer gains an aura of shadows around herself that grants 20% concealment. This is a constant effect that suppressed as a free action.

Slippery Mind (Ex): At 7th level, if a shadowdancer is affected by an enchantment and fails her saving throw, 1 round later she can attempt her saving throw again. She only gets this one extra chance to succeed at her saving throw. If it fails as well, the spell’s effects occur normally.

Body of Shadows (Sp): At 9th level, the shadow dancer shifts her body to form a shadow. The effect is the same a Gaseous Form with the effect lasting 10 minutes per day that do not have to run consecutively but use a minimum of 1 minute per usage.

Improved Evasion (Ex): This ability, gained at 10th level, works like evasion (see above). A shadowdancer takes no damage at all on successful saving throws against attacks that allow a Reflex saving throw for half damage. What’s more, she takes only half damage even if she fails her saving throw.

Shadowdancer
Base
Attack Fort Ref Will
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special
1st +0 +0 +1 +0 Hide in plain sight, Darkness
2nd +1 +1 +1 +1 Evasion, darkvision, uncanny dodge
3rd +2 +1 +2 +1 Shadow Illusion
4th +3 +1 +2 +1 Dance of shadows
5th +3 +2 +3 +2 Defensive roll, improved uncanny dodge
6th +4 +2 +3 +2 Aura of the Night
7th +5 +2 +4 +2 Slippery Mind
8th +6 +3 +4 +3
9th +6 +3 +5 +3 Body of shadows
10th +7 +3 +5 +3 Improved Evasion

If I could get some feed back on this it would be nice
thanks

edited for some typos

Second, fixed exchange rates is a new invention.

In our own history, gold, silver and copper were tradable commodities more than they were currency. This meant that the exchange rate varied wildly. While it was sometimes 1 gp = 10 sp, that varied with the season, current events, bandit raids, new prospecting, and so on.

This so a gm does not have to sit their and figure out the rate of exchange every time a player comes into town. If you whant to try and do that i wish you luck

Third, different types of coins had different social roles.

The basic idea was that in all that you did economically, you used the same coins for it. Nobility used gold, merchants silver and lower classes copper. There was exchange, certainly, which was provided by the banks, at a heavy percentage, but in general this held true. Social diffusion was not appreciated. A noble would be seen as having committed a faux pas by paying with coppers. A worker would have a hard time spending a gold piece, since everyone he paid it to would think he had stolen it. A consequence of the varying prices was that an influx of one type of metal affected different classes differently. If someone opened up a new gold mine, the nobles' situation improved, quite differently from a silver mine.

this makes for a good idea if you are in a rigid society but most midevil fantasy is a very loose and fluid society in your example the noble would pay in copper if the item was that low (do you pay with a 20 every purchase you make) as for the worker how hard is it for you to break a hundred and does someone think you stole it automatically

Fourth, the currency system had a good number of oddities.

The coinage system could be so much more than 1 pp=10 gp=100 sp=1000 cp.

That's close to how it was in fist and second editions but it was changed to make it easier for people to do the math (as an old school player/DM it was a pain some time to do the math for large sums of money

Ok here we go

An estate of 64 acres with

The knight, his wife, 2 kids

Servants include 3 farm hands ,1 maid , 1 estate manger( Forman), 3 children

It is assumed the children do no work though a as kid who grew up on a farm I know better (chores started at age 7 for me)

Live stock:
1 warhorse (non working) eats 2 acres worth of hay a year
1 Ox eats 2 acres worth of hay a year
6 dairy cows (the knight buys stud services)
27 rabbits (24 does, 3 bucks) (this is the breeding stock)
32 chickens 15 layers/15 rosters 2 rosters

Land usage:

Fields 30 acres
1 acre Barn, silos, utility buildings

2 acres vegetable garden

1 /2 acre chicken coop
½ rabbit coop

4 acres Apple trees
1 acre walnut trees

22 acres Hay fields
1 acre animal pens
1 acre estate grounds

Production:
The fields are on lt crop/ grain crop/grain crop rotation (and yes this works)

4 acres Barley 672 lbs / acre gross- 144lbs seeds= 528 lbs /acre= 2112lbs
10 acres wheat 480lbs / acre gross – 120 lbs in seeds = 360 lbs / acre = 3600 lbs
6 acres cabbage 6000lbs / acre -0 for seeds =6000lbs /acre =36000lbs
8 acres peas 300 lbs / acre -90 for seeds =210 per acre= 1680lbs
2lima beans 400lbs / acre-100 for seeds =300 lbs / acre = 1500lbs

4 acres of apples= 1920 lbs /acre /year 7680 lbs
1 acre walnuts = 475lbs (in shell)/year 475 lbs which produces 47.7 lbs of nut meat
Milk production
Hay needed per cow = 1.5 acres
Milk produced per cow 4 gallons
Gallons need per pound of cheese 4
So 1 lbs cheese /day per cow
So 2190lbs / year produced

Meat production
Rabbits each consume 7lbs food month
A doe rabbit can produce 21 new rabbits /year or 1.75 / month
They can be harvested in 2 months
So every month we get 42 rabbits
So we have 111 rabbits on hand at any time
So we use 9234 lbs of food year feeing them
We get 84 lbs of meat and 42 furs /month

Chickens
Each bird eats 1 lbs / week so 32 lbs / week 1664 lbs / year
We feed the birds the peas (what you thought we were going to feed them corn)
We go get a new roster every 6 weeks so get 2.5 birds /week @ 3lbs meat ea so 7.5 lbs week.
We get 120 eggs / year / bird so 1800 eggs/ year or roughly 35 eggs / week

Beef
Every year you have 6 calves being born
Assuming that you let them age a year and ½ and let them get to a weight of 600 lbs
That means you will get 238 lbs of beef / animal
You will need roughly 13.5 acres of hay to get this result
Food production

3600 lbs wheat = 2520 lbs wheat flour of which 1095 is kept of bread of the estate the rest sold
2112 lbs of barley = 2112 gallons of beer all is used by the estate

Apples
2 acres worth are converted to cider =130 gallons / acre
Of which 260 is kept a cider 50 is made to hard ciders and 50 is made into apple jack (producing 12.5 gallons of applejack)
1 acres worth is converted to apple sauce = 100 qts of applesauce
Of the rest 2 bushels aka is kept for 48 pies
2 are kept for eating
The other 36 are sold = 48lbs x 36= 1728 lbs

Walnuts
10lbs is kept for the estate the rest are sold

Cabbage
16000 is kept by the estate
The other 20000 is sold

So we have out going off the farm
20000lbs cabbage sold at .025sp/lbs for 50gp profit
1425 lbs wheat flower sold at 6cp lbs for 85.5 gp profit
25 gallons hard cider sold at 42cp /gallon for 10.5 gp
100 gallons cider sold at 26cp / gallon for 26 gp
37.5 lbs of walnuts sold at 7cp /lbs for 2.62 gp
504 rabbit furs sold at 6cp ea for 30.24 gp
1500lbs lima beans sold for 2cp/ lbs for 30gp
1728 lbs Apples sold for 1cp/ lbs for 17.28 gp
6 cow hides sold for 4sp each for 2.4 gp

For a total of 254.54gp /year

Diet of our farm average / day (ever one s treated =)
8oz cheese
1.4 oz chicken
5.25 oz of beef
0.4 of an egg (it’s a treat)
4oz of wheat bread
3.6 oz rabbit meat
1.5lbs cabbage
4 pts beer

in this example our poor knight is not making a lot but he makes some revenue His and his people diet is vastly improved and does not have to stress as much about starving

Grr preview ate my fist try at this

I have some questions /points to make for your estate

1.> What kind of draft animals do you have on the estate (this is important)

2.> you are aware that Rye,barley,and oat chaff is called straw and has no Calories that an animal can use , also it is not safe for animals to eat large quantities of it over time as it cuts their intestines up.(trust me you do not want to deal with that)

3.> The diet you have these poor peploe on is almost cruel
its a 2047 calorie diet of which 85% of the calories are supplied by bread. (if need be i can show you the math)

4.> your wood needs are way over the top you have enough wood to run 8 to 9 fire places for a year non stop in a endless tempered zone winter (the average fire place only needs 1 cord aka 3200 pounds of wood per 6 to 8 weeks in winter.

5> what are you feeding the birds.

6>where is your grain storage/ barns/ utilty, buldings (your rye alone is a 5.25ft to a side cube of material)

if i was this poor knight i would be off adventuring as much as i could just supplement the lousy conditions of this estate

btw Grain to Gold is not just a estate book its a pretty good look at an overall economy that will not bore you to tears

I have a few coments to be made on this subject

1> most of the time the 1sp per day is assuming that the pcs are providing both food and lodgings which add another 4 to 6 sp per day in costs. and that is for just unskilled labor.

2 as it states in the beta rules 2sp /day for skilled is the minimum not the average so your example of the Swordsmiths apprentice buying his own work the long sword uses ruffly 8sp in mats takes roughly a week to make and makes 14g profit for the business figure you pay the apprentice 20% of the profit that's 2g 8sp or roughly 4sp a day for the apprentice with his master taking home 11g 2sp or 1g 6sp a day. and that is for a cheep non master work longsword even saying a masterwork blade takes a mounth to make thats still a 300g addtion to the profit of the store or a roughly 10g a day addtion to the smiths take home pay.

3. also it is up to the pcs to provide the hirelings with the appropriate gear for their job. also most hirelings even "unskilled" ones will not voluntarily step into a dungeon now guards might but they will probably want "hazard pay". also if one of the hirelings die expect the pcs to have to pay death benefits.

as for carrying large sums of cash and having to move it around that is what jewelers/money changers are for and if the pcs are stupid enough to change all their cash to gems then that pint of all my cost them 100g if they really need it. if they get served at all. paying at the door on your way out only started in Victorian times .prior to that you payed for you food and drinks at the table /bar. so no cash no food/drinks.

and for trade bars, most of those where face value of the bar when not dealing with the originating organization. so yes you may have bought the bar off merchant house zxy for 200g but if you not selling it back to that house or one dealing with it then its only worth the base value say 50g for a one pound bar . this is where magical markings on the bar come in handy to prevent counterfeiting.

as a later note I would recommend reading Grain Into Gold by John Josten published by Board Enterprises you can get here http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=13113&it=1 (sorry Paizo does not have it) its a really good break down on how to figure out fantasy economics without being too preachy or text book like

SmiloDan wrote:

Dragonslayer

Neutral Human Shadowcaster 18
AC...
...Are there any flaws in this plan?

Yes. A dragon which lives in the middle of a dead-magic zone. :D

them that dragon is screwed anyway...

no breath weapons,no spells, just physical attacks and while they are impressive, i can see a smart dragon denying himself those

PC's Name: TPK 5 member party
Level all lv 18
Circumstances of Death: balor death explosion half way up the tower resulting in the entire tower collapsing with fall damage and crushing damage.(tower is 80 feet in diameter, explosion 100 ft)
Setting Skullrot last of the shackled city ap

I do the same thing.

Did the player who made the roll have any other ideas? What was the situation that he was complaining about?

Sean Mahoney

unfortunately no he did not,

he was playing a rogue and had rolled 4 low rolls (4,6,6,8) and he got popped by a trap ,mind you it did not kill him but he botched the save also.

Question how do all of you DM's handle hidden skill checks for your players.

My method has been to have each player at the start of game session roll a d20 20 times and right out the result, that way when I need a roll from them, I roll a d20 and add it to their skill.

I feel this is fair becuse the payers have rolled their rolls but they do not know what roll is being used on a given need.

Though recently I had a player complain and was looking to see if any one had any better ideas for doing this.

then you have some of the weird tech stagnation like the fact that guns have been on the world for 3800+ years but have yet to advance past early 1800's level

so we have a tec stagnation of roughly 1 to 10 on that which would lend it self well to the fact that most of your higher Int people are busy playing in their wizard towers also the fact that the game designers made the populace of the world have the opinion that anyone using them is a weak coward. and you get a good example of tech suppression in addition. I mean why make or research an item if their is no market for the item.

So I'm asking you:

What does Psionics mean to you?

the best example for me of a fantasy(or almost fantsy setting ) is an anime one unfortunately but until the end of the 4ep does not go into OP mode and this is 3x3 eyes , this has really good examples of that astral constructs are used for and what the difference is between a psisicic warrior (Yakumo) is and a full blown psion (Pai/Parvati IV) is.(the second set of Ova is an even better example)

How can I get you to buy a psionics book and use it in your campaign?

on this I agree with most if not all of the the post prior on this forum is saying keep the point system but fix the minor isues and tweek the classes.

What is an absolute deal-breaker?

switching the system to the Vatican system.

The key here is instantaneous Conjurations. A Fireball is an Evocation. Creatures brought to the world by Gate or Planar Ally would be good examples. Basically if you that read that section in full you're really seeing the difference between Summoned and Called creatures.

In the case of other instantaneous spell effects I'd play it by ear. In the case of Fireballs and other attack spells it is important to look at the descriptive part of text.

"A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point."

The fireball pea will hit the edge of the AMF and be negated before it can detonate. Now here's a WTF thought, readied action to shoot a fireball pea with an arrow before it gets to far from the caster's finger. A hard shot true, but would have nasty consequences.

ok not quite what i had mind player a is in a 10ft radius antimagic field

My worst ones to date are

Battle lords of the 23rd century (1st printing comes to mind)it felt like some just printed their game notes up and slapped them in a book. the 3rd ed is a lot better in the layout.

Twilight 2000 1st ed rule system at the time for me was to complex i was 14 at the time and the math was a little confusing plus having to path a tank round thorough a tank was a pain.

I have a question on antimagic field spell from the web enhancment

their is a bit of flavor text at the end of page 3

(The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an
antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in
effect, only its result.)

does this mean that if a fire ball spell is cast so it's center point is out side the field but a person in the area of effect is inside the field also are they effected by the spell.

sorry i know it sounds dumb

For those who think they are cramming to much into the base world I did a comparison to real world analogs.

The northern portion of the map is Roughly 2040 Miles(3283Km)wide by 1680 Miles (2703Km) tall For a area of 3,427,200 miles Sq (7,606,711 KM sq )

The southern Portion is 1440 miles (2317Km)wide and 1680 miles (2703 Km)For an Area of 2,419,200 miles Sq (6,266,527Km sq)

For a combined total of 13,873,238 Km sq

The ENTIRE EU is only 1,669,807 Miles Sq(4,324,782Km sq)

The Entire USA (all 50 States) is 3,794,083 miles sq (9,826,630Km sq)

So what we have is a game world the size of Europe and the US and thats Just the Base

drashal wrote:

While I have always been a supporter of Gunpowder weapons in D&D

and I love that Paizo found a way to include them in in the Campaign setting with a logical reason for them.

They for got one little thing.

Q: whats the cost of ammo and how much does it weigh.

For the cost, look on page 211 under the "Ammunition" heading. For the weight, just assume they have no appreciable weight. Or use the weight amount for sling stones, which I don't remember off the top of my head.

Thanks I completly missed that , I was looking for a table not text

While I have always been a supporter of Gunpowder weapons in D&D

and I love that Paizo found a way to include them in in the Campaign setting with a logical reason for them.

They for got one little thing.

Q: whats the cost of ammo and how much does it weigh.

countbuggula wrote:

4e just isn't a game for role-players.

i simply cannot agree with this on a subjective as well as objective basis. 4e has more space dedicated to roleplaying in the phb than in the 3.5 phb. There are no mechanical rules that prevent or even hinder roleplaying in 4e.

I have been trying to be really patient with replies to this thread but this sentiment is just plain wrong on so many levels.

What the 8 total pages that are not basics on how to run the game wow realy deticated to roleplaying. (if you dont belive go back and look and read the first section over and tell me that there is more than eight pages worth total that is not rules or basic how to's in the first 49 pages. before you blast everyone as you have the last week for their thoughts you should go back and reread what you are fighting for.

Definitive 3 and 6 and yes i read them for a week before my final jugement

Snorter wrote:

And, when you consider that the advice in the 1st Edition DMG literally consisted of "Hit them with random lightning bolts, and set blatantly obvious grudge monsters on them", then it is an evolution...

Not to be a terrible thread-snarker (okay, maybe I am), but can you dig up your literal quote of that? Because I never read that in my 1st edition DMG.

I'm also a little picky about using "literally" when it isn't appropriate :)

1st Ed DMG Revised ed 1979 p110 second column 5 th paragraph

drashal wrote:

Really, sorry could not help my self.

But if you look at the pathing that they are doing usually doing in the 4e phb you have two to three choices per class thats it. Cleric is a good Exp. you are either a holy warrior or a healer no in between.

thats what i mean by cookie cutter.

Btw I love the fact that only one class can use plate without spending a feat and it not the fighter.

I noticed Fighters don't start with proficiency in Plate as well, and found that an interesting change from previous editions.

That said, the two sample build presented at the start of each class are analgous to the sample builds given in 3E. In no way are they a straight jacket that limits your character, and you aren't required to take them.

More generally, Clerics get a lot of abilities but in a general sense, most are either ranged spell attacks or melee strikes. But you're not limited to one or the other, and I'd think most Clerics would want at lesat some mix of them. I know I'd want to have some ability in busting heads in case I find myself holy symbol deep in bad guys.

A shorter version of my above post: You can absolutely play a Cleric in-between holy warrior and healer. I think you'd be shooting yourself in the foot not to!

Cheers! :)

PS: I appreciate the apology. It isn't offered too often around here, but I'll gladly accept it. :)

Again i grovel, i went back and reread the section on that my falt Hey this it the gut reaction post. I an still not liking the feel of the game is going. But hey that my opinion. I still am seing major isues try to retro any thing from earlier editions with out a lot of work.

One of the things i am noticing is that you are locked a lot more into a set play style/lack of on the fly changes exspecialy for casters

but as i said these are my early reactions

I'm trying to get more 4E discussion going here, not more discussion about 4E. :P

Really, sorry could not help my self.

But if you look at the pathing that they are doing usually doing in the 4e phb you have two to three choices per class thats it. Cleric is a good Exp. you are either a holy warrior or a healer no in between.

thats what i mean by cookie cutter.

Btw I love the fact that only one class can use plate without spending a feat and it not the fighter.

OK i guess I am going to fall into the haters group for 4ed. after reading through the rule sets once and then going back to reread sections over that i had problems with i keep coming up with the same thought.

This is WOW / LOTRO / EQ1 &2 But worse grafics. i swear i am looking for the how to reset my cool-downs Feat. OW- wait there is an epic one.

This is Like Someone at WOC had heard what D&D was through a old Can & string Phone and then was told he had to make a game out of it.

dont get me wrong As i see it's a great Minis/Quick play game system
but i do not want my PC to be cookie cutters of each other which is where this version of the game is pushing players.

What most of you guys have missed is that WOC/ hasbro are not hoping to make their cash on Raw book Sales.

their plan is to have us pay monthly fees for online services for Added content and for rule upgrades.

So to be frank I don't think this leak hurts them the way that every one thinks it does.