"Allowing discussion of" and "encouraging" are different other things.
Heck, the Valeros build is proof enough they aren't "encouraging" min/maxing.
Point taken. Min/maxing just rubs me the wrong way I guess.
The quantification of jerkitude.
How did we ever live before this???
(Wait...is sarcasm jerky?)
|
You know, that actually sounds like fun. How about we do it? Use the powers of statistical analysis to determine whether people from Charop are more or less jerky than people here?
I will do statistical analysis on Charop, and one of you who has training in statistics will help me to ensure that I do not falsify data. We will repeat on Paizo.
This will have to be a double blind study, so as to ensure prejudice and favoritism do not affect us. Experimenter bias is, after all, a bad thing.
So basically we shall do take a stratified random sample of 30 members of Charop and 30 members of Paizo, select quotes from them at random via the SRS method, ten to thirty each - we'll determine the exact number later.
These quotes will be given to the two experimenters and the jerkness content will be assessed. I propose that one jerky post be given one Jerk Point, a semi-jerky one be given half, a neutral post be given zero, and a helpful post be given negative one point. Something like that.
After doing this, we run the data through a T test, and will determine whether there is a statistically significant difference between the jerkness of Charop people and the posters on this forum.
I am offering to take this to the limit max extreme, by bringing actual data into this discussion instead of pure theory and rhetoric, which has basically boiled down to both sides saying "nuh-uh" at each other.
Is anyone up to the challenge?
This is sounding a lot like the "debate club wannabe"'s that I posted about and heard a rash of crap for. Please stop proving my point. People might dislike me more.
+1 Jerk point for me too!!
If nothing else comes out of this, I suggest we all inventory our own Jerk Points in our signatures, for maximum lulz. I think a statistical analysis of ChOp v. Paizo would be hilarious but impossible to found on any quantitative grounds as how would you aggregate the data into measurable categories? :) Still, it'd be funny enough to make it worth doing at least a joke-instance of.
|
If nothing else comes out of this, I suggest we all inventory our own Jerk Points in our signatures, for maximum lulz. I think a statistical analysis of ChOp v. Paizo would be hilarious but impossible to found on any quantitative grounds as how would you aggregate the data into measurable categories? :) Still, it'd be funny enough to make it worth doing at least a joke-instance of.
We don't have sigs here though. I guess we could track them in our profiles.
Seriously? I'm probably one of the bigger a-holes on these boards here, if you want to use that as a measuring stick.
|
Nah, volunteers are notorious for producing biased results. I'd have to go through the roster of active posters and randomly select thirty of them.We don't have sigs here though. I guess we could track them in our profiles.
Seriously? I'm probably one of the bigger a-holes on these boards here, if you want to use that as a measuring stick.
And then you would have a statistical analysis that people will most likely dismiss out of hand, but that will have taken an inordinate amount of time to create.
There are times when statistics can be incredibly useful and appreciated. I don't think this is one of those times.
|
|
What a coincidence. Back in the old days, we also had a different name for African Americans.
Both are basically prejudicial slurs use to denigrate those of a certain type that you do not like, aren't they?
<Sigh>
Yes, indeed you are a poor oppressed person, since no one has immediately rushed to open a forum that you want despite being on these boards for approximately 24 hours. I bet you really know how those sharecroppers felt.
I'm sure you think you are a really clever guy. Unfortunately, you seem to possess very poor judgement. I'm judging you are probably a kid, and if you are not, you should know better. How about this as a guide? Why don't you statistically analyse the posts you are actually putting down here, and assess which ones 1) contain actual ChaOps discussion, 2) contain reference to, but no actual content, in relation to CharOps, and 3) self-pitying whining about how everyone is being nasty to you. That might be more illuminating, and (just maybe) a way out of this mess. Or perhaps see what DocRoc is doing, in trying to demonstrate the usefulness of CharOps instead of just talking round the subject of a forum.
Chalk up a point for me. Actually make it two, since I've been patronising too.
Patrick gave some great advice above, and it's nice to see some of it in action. Start a few CharOp threads, and let it grow. Show how it can work with the community and contribute to it through local example.
The Paizo boards are an established community, which is still growing, and with PF's release, stands to see alot more growth. When wanting to make a chance to a community, demonstrating a need by example is a great way to win folks over by showing through example how this idea can be a contributing and positive part of the community. And hard example usually trumps explanation or theory.
That's especially true when the topic involves one of the classic gaming bipolar disorders: minmaxing emphasis versus roleplay emphasis. And, especially when there've been so many bad experiences. I myself have had game tables torn apart by these differences. (Personally, I think this old debate comes down to basic human nature: 'don't tell me how to play.')
There's been concern voiced here that if there is a CharOp board, it "shouldn't be like those other boards." The ones at Den, WotC, and so on that have built a reputation for negativity. There also seems to be concern that to prevent it, the CO boards would need to be heavily moderated. Now, the people who said that also tended to vote yes, there should be boards.
That sounds like an admission, to me, that CO-specific areas could/would bring in the exact tone the community doesn't want. So if one is made--I think Patrick's advice becomes more important, and here I may extend it beyond his original intent. By initiating a suggested change through example, it also allows that example to set a TONE.
And that TONE would be very different from what's seen at Den or WotC. And that tone would influence behavior towards the positive, instead of what's seen at...well. A number of places that have been mentioned.
I hit that about on the head, or is that a complete miss?
Tone--very important.
Here's another thing to consider: the staff depend upon us to be good grown-ups, decent people. This is a matter of respect, freedom, but also pragmatism--how much time and energy do the staff need to spend on moderation? My answer, as a product-grubbing pig, is: the less, the better.
So when you ask them to do you the favor of creating a new forum, you better not simultaneously be asking them to do more moderation. If you want something, show it will be a contribution to the community, not more headaches for the staff.
I think SquirrelyOgre has the right of it. I myself do not think you can make such an area without bringing in the over all blight such things always tend to make, but we'll see
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
|
Nah, volunteers are notorious for producing biased results. I'd have to go through the roster of active posters and randomly select thirty of them.We don't have sigs here though. I guess we could track them in our profiles.
Seriously? I'm probably one of the bigger a-holes on these boards here, if you want to use that as a measuring stick.
Please pick me! Pick me!!
See, here's the thing. I've already houseruled the hell out of Pathfinder, and the final rules aren't even out yet. Because I have basic 4th grade math competence, I've already spotted all the glaring flaws that the CharOps people repeatedly point out (especially the infinite wealth loops vs. wealth = power paradigms, and the non-viability of non-casters above 10th level or so, and the problems that come from the use of vague wording and sloppy terminology in rules documents). Indeed, I myself have pointed out a number of these problems... and Jason has fixed some, and ignored many others, and so it goes.
On the flip side, I consider Fake Healer a friend of mine. As are Derek and Aubrey and Tarren Dei and Chris Mortika and Sebastian and many others, some who have (wisely, I think) refrained from posting in this thread. Even though we don't agree a whole lot when it comes to game preferences (well, OK, Derek and I agree a lot, but Aubrey and I almost never do -- but that's beside the point), nonetheless we've achieved a level of bonding after simply being here and participating in this community over time.
That comradery trumps all other considerations, when it comes to my participation here. I'd rather Fakey call me an a$$hat when I disagree with him on some rules "essential," than to have some newcomer agree with me, but act like "Comic Book Guy" from the Simpsons, or else act pseudo-polite but not-so-secretly think he's Lex Luthor or something.
If anyone wants their own threads/forums, it's very, very simple to achieve. Just stick around a bit. Get to know the regulars. Meet some of them in person for a game or a quick pint. Talk politics or religion with them on the off-topic threads when you're not focused on gaming. Eventually when you start threads, people will participate because you're the one starting them, and your ideas then get discussed -- and you get honest feedback when people see problems.
Paizo boards -- it's easy to prove in -- and it starts with your posting history.
Were those comments directed at me? Because I haven't been "pseudo-polite."
I've been polite. And plan to be.
I count for a minyan too, if my (very accurate) avatar didn't give me away ;)
I've been polite. And plan to be.
Right on. The thrust of my comments were directed towards the second sentence of your reply -- "plan to be" implies some level of community commitment, which is exactly the yardstick by which I personally judge everything else here! You know how you have some friends that you know well enough, you can call them a "moronic $hi!bird" without offending them? What's considered polite shifts based on the relationship that exists, if any. Fakey calls me an a$$hat and it's all good. Were you or I to call one another that at this time (i.e., without knowing each other better, even through a lousy electronic proxy like a message board), it'd be fighting words, and rightly so. It's all a matter of perspective.
In your specific case, I'd say you're off to a very good start. Great introduction. Alias and avatar with some flair and style. More importantly, I saw some "Roc"ing on-topic threads opened that seem to generating some good discussion. Keep it up in that vein, and you'll find me an enthusiastic supporter!
As an excellent example, you might have seen Hogarth on other boards. He has managed to bridge the gap flawlessly, and is a well-respected member of the Paizo community and friend to all.
|
|
stuff
Aw, I feel all fuzzy inside. But you are still wrong about that assassination scene in CotCT.
Plus Fakey probably used the term a$$hat almost specifically because he wasn't actually talking to any of the new posters who felt it was an attack - he probably would have been more circumspect otherwise. So offence was taken where I know none was intended. Misunderstandings happen but what is important is that we get over them and move on.
Aw, I feel all fuzzy inside. But you are still wrong about that assassination scene in CotCT.
When it comes to the Paizo boards, I care about fictitious assassinations, and about your horrid "Olde Worlde" notions of spelling, far less than I care about the enjoyable discussions we've shared -- even if on opposite sides of the rules AND of the Pond.
Errr ... is this where I come to pick up some Jerk Points?
Seriously, though, I think "CharOp" posts are kinda neat ... I don't actually build characters with much math involved - and run a really (really, REALLY) "rules-light" game - but they're fun to read nonetheless. Some of that playtest stuff DID get a little out of hand, but I think that was more about the "event" attracting rifraff and less about CharOps overall.
|
|
See, here's the thing. I've already houseruled the hell out of Pathfinder, and the final rules aren't even out yet. Because I have basic 4th grade math competence, I've already spotted all the glaring flaws that the CharOps people repeatedly point out (especially the infinite wealth loops vs. wealth = power paradigms, and the non-viability of non-casters above 10th level or so, and the problems that come from the use of vague wording and sloppy terminology in rules documents). Indeed, I myself have pointed out a number of these problems... and Jason has fixed some, and ignored many others, and so it goes.
On the flip side, I consider Fake Healer a friend of mine. As are Derek and Aubrey and Tarren Dei and Chris Mortika and Sebastian and many others, some who have (wisely, I think) refrained from posting in this thread. Even though we don't agree a whole lot when it comes to game preferences (well, OK, Derek and I agree a lot, but Aubrey and I almost never do -- but that's beside the point), nonetheless we've achieved a level of bonding after simply being here and participating in this community over time.
That comradery trumps all other considerations, when it comes to my participation here. I'd rather Fakey call me an a$$hat when I disagree with him on some rules "essential," than to have some newcomer agree with me, but act like "Comic Book Guy" from the Simpsons, or else act pseudo-polite but not-so-secretly think he's Lex Luthor or something.
If anyone wants their own threads/forums, it's very, very simple to achieve. Just stick around a bit. Get to know the regulars. Meet some of them in person for a game or a quick pint. Talk politics or religion with them on the off-topic threads when you're not focused on gaming. Eventually when you start threads, people will participate because you're the one starting them, and your ideas then get discussed -- and you get honest feedback when people see problems.
Paizo boards -- it's easy to prove in -- and it starts with your posting history.
I love you too, Kirth. And I would never call you a derogatory name. A$$hat.
;)
And I thought it was impossible for this thread to degenerate any more than it already had, only to discover that it has devolved into a squalor of asshattery and bromance.
And I thought it was impossible for this thread to degenerate any more than it already had, only to discover that it has devolved into a squalor of asshattery and bromance.
Here's a chance for you and Big Tex and maybe one of the Jacks to sell some torches and/or pitchforks... ;P
"Sigh, pitchforks and torches..please"
Ports in crates of swords, daggers,maces and axes.
"There, oh anyone want armor? I can do flamethrowers as well"
Shut up, asshat.
I am appalled that this much discussion of asshattery can occur without my name being mentioned. If this keeps up, Sebastian might demand his "Jr. Sebastian in training" cap back.
You all suck.
If it makes you feel any better, Bugley, I still sometimes start singing, "Welcome back..." whenever I see you posting.
If it makes you feel any better, Bugley, I still sometimes start singing, "Welcome back..." whenever I see you posting.
*sniff*
Ok, you don't suck. But everyone else does. :)
Hey, don't hate on my bff Aubrey. It's not that he doesn't love you, it's just that his love for me sometimes makes him forget about everybody else. It's not his fault, just an effect I have on people.
|
|
I'll just reaffirm my position of being against a character opt forum. Just look at all the bickering in this thread over the suggest.
I still propose a middle ground, class forums.
If someone wants to talk about optimizing a dual wielding fighter (for example) a thread can be started in the fighter forum, where it's appropriate. People can ignore the thread or look at the thread while looking at OTHER fighter related discussion.
I think a forum dedicated to character optimizing is just flame bait begging to be trolled.
Don't feed the trolls.
|
|
I am appalled that this much discussion of asshattery can occur without my name being mentioned. If this keeps up, Sebastian might demand his "Jr. Sebastian in training" cap back.
You all suck.
Asshattery? That's amazing. You guys just turned asshat into a verb. It's like magic or something.
Ok, I challenge you to turn other nouns into verbs. Start with "Basilisk" Whoever can make basilisk into a verb and use it in a sentence first is the winner.
The grand prize being...
Let the games begin.
|
|
I am appalled that this much discussion of asshattery can occur without my name being mentioned. If this keeps up, Sebastian might demand his "Jr. Sebastian in training" cap back.
You all suck.
Asshattery? That's amazing. You guys just turned asshat into a verb. It's like magic or something.
Ok, I challenge you to turn other nouns into verbs. Start with "Basilisk" Whoever can make basilisk into a verb and use it in a sentence first is the winner.
The grand prize being...
** spoiler omitted **Let the games begin.
I was Basilisking in the sun on Easter Island. Those big head dudes saw it coming, but by the time you see me Basilisking in a bikini, it's too late.
Basilisking
Previous post brought to you by yours truly
I'm still waiting for my asshattery award. Although, laurels on top of oak might seem redundant, still, I could give them to the wife, daughter, or just put them on top of my couch cushion.