..... I have no cogent response to that which will not get me banned. Maloo, it's pretty clear you have no idea what CO is about, or who the people that really practice it are. I currently run a game with one of the most famous optimizers of all time in it. Tleilxu_Ghola, to be specific. His backstory is around twenty pages long.
I have another player, who often launches into tirades virtually identical to the boatload of bile you just dumped, and his backstory is about three paragraphs long. I'm not sure that you have a leg to stand on here, since I've never met the people you lambast so thoroughly.
Worse, I fear that your attitude is the pervading one. Think for a moment about how you make someone like me feel, and then consider the possibility that in this particular fight, you have become the bad guy.
What upsets me a wee bit is that when challenged to post a well reasoned dissenting opinion, a few of us did, and yet no one that called upon the opposition to present a well reasoned argument for their "side" responded to those posts, they continued to find quotes that were more emotional or visceral in their expression, quoted them, and acted as if those were the only comments posted in response.
This makes me wonder if the actual purpose isn't to find out what the other side is really concerned about so much as to prove that one can "win" the argument by framing the opposition in a certain light.
While I haven't changed my mind about the need for a character optimization board, I have been very impressed with some of the people that are fond of character optimization that have elaborated their side.
On the other hand, I've seen several advocates that, while not completely degenerating into name calling, are still more than willing to present themselves as obviously being more enlightened then those they oppose, rather than simply having a difference of opinion.
In my comments on why I didn't think a Character Optimization board was needed, I never said anything disparaging about someone fond of character optimization, only that I didn't think it was something that needed to be specifically called out as a separate section of the forum any more than any other play style would be.
Forum seems to have eaten my post.
Let me toss another thought out here. COers tend to feel pretty persecuted. For reasons that are obvious but may or may not be well-founded. It's going to be hard to attract them with any regularity if they feel like there's no support for their community niche. A sub-forum seems silly, but for me it's a big symbol of how much or how little I mean to a given administration. I'm fine with it not happening yet. But it eventually needs to happen, from my perspective, simply so that people will know their requests for help won't get pounded under a slurry of other posts before someone at least reads their questions about two-weapon fighting gish builds.
Let me be clear, Fake Healer. I don't like you, I don't like your style, I don't like the way you talk about me or people who I've grown to consider friends. But I'm willing to extend to you the same courtesy I extend to everyone.
Where is your much vaunted equanimity?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Got to the link I provided. Find these troublesome posters. Let us have concrete examples of what you mean.So you're saying that if we had a optimization subforum, it would destroy the message boards?
Bit of a hyperbole, don't you think?
Not really. We have a couple of Charop advocates here now who seem to be respectful and mature. In my experience, mostly at WOTC's site in the past, there are some who are just like this group, respectful, mature, etc.. but there are more who are as I described in my former post as immature, a$$hats, etc....and those have ruined the entire WOTC boards IMO. I would like to avoid these boards becoming a WOTC clone board for Pathfinder.
I looked. I didn't see any. Can you provide a link to threads on this site where some innocent CharOps advocates were beaten silly and kicked to the curb? I'm not seeing them either.
I saw some really vitriolic posts right around there... Might take a moment to find them.
Dunno about you, but I love being called an asshat, a whiner, and a pwr_gamer.
I mean, what is that, Hungarian notation?
;)
Wait . . . you don't agree with Fake Healer on a topic in a thread, and you don't like him, as a person? I'm sorry, I don't care how erudite your execution of the statement is, that bothers me. You haven't talked to Fake Healer in other threads about other topics. You don't know him as a person. I don't know what your opinion is on a variety of topics, but I wouldn't say that I don't like you based on your opinions expressed in one thread, no matter how vehemently.
Look GMs make a attempt to make the game fun for all. We work hard and try to give every player what they want(high adventure, gritty city scapes, outdoor survival). It goes both ways, when a player is only interested in how to build the best blaster ETC, I am not interested in them. Wow inner motivation would be nice from a pwr gamer but all you get is a hassle and a self-serving attitude and to heck with other players enjoyment.
Maloo, I am on your side in personal game play. However, I play with several folks who are whizzes at building optimized characters. Some of them aren't good at creating backstory or pithy dialog. I adjust my game to suit the players, who are the stars, not the DM or his world. Oftentimes optimizers are great assets to a group, as they allow the narrativists to worry about their interests while keeping the monsters at bay.
If you don't feel comfortable with optimizers at your table, than that is a personal preference. That doesn't mean that that subsection of gaming is any less fun for folks than a Narritavist style of play.
Calling someone who optimizes characters or focuses on the mechanics of games a 'pwr' gamer is insulting to them, much as calling people who like a more story-oriented game 'bad dinner thespians'. Once you start throwing the insults around the flames start to flare and we lose all hope of communication.
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Many GMs dont like pwr games.
And they have chosen to be GMs, which means they can allow, or disallow 'pwr games' as they see fit. Lucky them!
If another GM wants to disallow any 'namby-pamby role-playing crap' at their table, they are entitled to do so, and will presumably find their player pool limited to those who agree with their tastes.
The above is pure hyperbole, of course, as I have heard *many* people rail against allowing powergamers at their table, but few, if any, say that they would forbid a player's character for 'too much roleplaying stuff.'
Qu'elle surprise. Divisive, judgemental and exclusionary rhetoric from side on the high moral horse, kinda a lot like the real world. :)
They take away from the role playing aspect of "role playing games".
The word 'role-playing' is indeed part of that term, and is brandished like a bludgeon here.
Note that the term also includes the word 'game.'
Mechanical rules-oriented 'gamist' thinking is hardly as dire a thing as it is being made out to be, being just as present in the term 'role playing game' as role-playing is.
Were this Amber Diceless (a spiffy system in it's own right!), then a 'true role-player' could get all up on a high horse on the superiority of their storytelling versus that of us D&D / GURPS / World of Darkness / etc. players, all of whom turn to dice, to 'roll-playing,' for combat, skill resolution and even, in some cases, *social resolutions* (effects like diplomacy / intimidate / bluff, reaction rolls, morale checks), etc.
And if my character concept is 'best swordsman in the Middle Kingdoms?' Then it would only be 'in character' to make sure that my character has the 'soulless,' 'mechanical,' 'roll-playing' chops to back that *concept* up, wouldn't it?
Wait . . . you don't agree with Fake Healer on a topic in a thread, and you don't like him, as a person? I'm sorry, I don't care how erudite your execution of the statement is, that bothers me. You haven't talked to Fake Healer in other threads about other topics. You don't know him as a person. I don't know what your opinion is on a variety of topics, but I wouldn't say that I don't like you based on your opinions expressed in one thread, no matter how vehemently.
He's called me an asshat three or four times now. That's not how I want to be talked to. Forgive me my snap judgements. I too have flaws. I'd be delighted to find out he's a generally good dude, but right now, all he's done is talk down to me.
He's called me an asshat three or four times now. That's not how I want to be talked to. Forgive me my snap judgements. I too have flaws. I'd be delighted to find out he's a generally good dude, but right now, all he's done is talk down to me.
I'm not going to put words in his mouth, nor would I have use the same terminology, nor do I disagree with the proposed sub forum for the same reason (exactly) as he does, but I may be wrong, but I think he has said that there are asshats that are Char Op people, and he doesn't want to attract them, not that every single person that is into Char Op is an asshat. I may be wrong, but if I'm not, he only called you an asshat if you are self-identifying.
Many GMs dont like pwr games.And they have chosen to be GMs, which means they can allow, or disallow 'pwr games' as they see fit. Lucky them!
If another GM wants to disallow any 'namby-pamby role-playing crap' at their table, they are entitled to do so, and will presumably find their player pool limited to those who agree with their tastes.
The above is pure hyperbole, of course, as I have heard *many* people rail against allowing powergamers at their table, but few, if any, say that they would forbid a player's character for 'too much roleplaying stuff.'
Qu'elle surprise. Divisive, judgemental and exclusionary rhetoric from side on the high moral horse, kinda a lot like the real world. :)
They take away from the role playing aspect of "role playing games".The word 'role-playing' is indeed part of that term, and is brandished like a bludgeon here.
Note that the term also includes the word 'game.'
Mechanical rules-oriented 'gamist' thinking is hardly as dire a thing as it is being made out to be, being just as present in the term 'role playing game' as role-playing is.
Were this Amber Diceless (a spiffy system in it's own right!), then a 'true role-player' could get all up on a high horse on the superiority of their storytelling versus that of us D&D / GURPS / World of Darkness / etc. players, all of whom turn to dice, to 'roll-playing,' for combat, skill resolution and even, in some cases, *social resolutions* (effects like diplomacy / intimidate / bluff, reaction rolls, morale checks), etc.
And if my character concept is 'best swordsman in the Middle Kingdoms?' Then it would only be 'in character' to make sure that my character has the 'soulless,' 'mechanical,' 'roll-playing' chops to back that *concept* up, wouldn't it?
Look I have banned many people from my gaming table. I even told one person they need to bathe before they sit down at the table(thx god they nvr returned). Many of you who take offense at my dislike for pwr gamer, well I guess that is to bad.
I am them.
I am the anonymous you.
I am the careless plural.
I know almost everyone in 339 at this point. They're all my friends, all of them are generally good people. Sure maybe they don't love cleave, sure maybe they are bothered by people insisting monk is mechanically sound.
But we're good people. I'm no better than most of them. If a sizeable chunk of them are asshats, enough to merit the denigration of a demographic, then it follows that if I self-identify as a COer, I must also be an a~&~&+~. Because I am the average COer.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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I saw some really vitriolic posts right around there... Might take a moment to find them.
Dunno about you, but I love being called an asshat, a whiner, and a pwr_gamer.
If someone directed those words at you (asshat, in particular), you should flag them for personal attacks.
Again, I think I'd enjoy reading over some CharOps threads and I encourage you to start some. Put [CharOps] in the thread title and only an a$$hat would jump in with any anti-CharOps vitriol. It is no more or less likely to happen if there is a forum devoted to CharOps.
EDITED for clarity
Remind me to write some hunky navy seal snipers into my next backstory....
They're normally found in Acheron, right? ;)
I saw some really vitriolic posts right around there... Might take a moment to find them.
Dunno about you, but I love being called an asshat, a whiner, and a pwr_gamer.I mean, what is that, Hungarian notation?
;)If someone directed those words at you, you should flag them for personal attacks.
Again, I think I'd enjoy reading over some CharOps threads and I encourage you to start some. Put [CharOps] in the thread title and only an a$$hat would jump in with any anti-CharOps vitriol. It is no more or less likely to happen if there is a forum devoted to CharOps.
Forgive my hungarian notation joke. It's a particularly illegible naming schema for variables in computer science. I think I might post some things. I don't know how much I can do right now, with the release version of the rules pending and the beta deprecated. The issue is that anything I build off of is likely to change before its even relevant.
I'll see if I can't pull together a couple of fancy bits though.
Look I have banned many people from my gaming table. I even told one person they need to bathe before they sit down at the table(thx god they nvr returned). Many of you who take offense at my dislike for pwr gamer, well I guess that is to bad.
It's perfectly fine to dislike a certain style of play, but why segue this into berating others on an online forum about it? All you're doing is throwing gasoline on a flammable subject.
I'm not a big fan of gamist stuff, hell I play in a freeform diceless, RULEless game down in the OTD threads. Doesn't mean I want to exclude all my rules-oriented brothers from having their fun. Posters like Set and SmiloDan come up with some of the most inventive stuff around. Scott Betts has taken on the daunting task of converting Pathfinder APs to 4E mechanics on his own time for free. I freely yoink their concepts (and stat blocks!!) so I don't have to spend time with a rulebook scratching my head trying to build an antagonist.
Why is it we insist on building up walled fiefdoms and tossing Molotovs at each other? We all COMPLIMENT each others style, not take away from it.
Your right I should talk about intent. The character had no real reason to take a lvl of Barbarian, other than for the move bonus and the rage ability.
Someone should tell the Navy SEALs that they are nothing more than a bunch of powergaming munchkins who are far too concerned about powergaming and efficiency for efficiency's sake. I mean, headshotting Somali pirates on a life raft from a ship three hundred meters away? Brokenly overpowered if you ask me. I mean, what kind of cheesy prestige class is this "Navy SEAL" thing anyways? Why couldn't they just roleplay the situation instead of rollplaying?
Listen up, you young whippersnapper: people who are in the business of doing mindboggling dangerous things for a living will try to be as powerful as possible. It is the way of things. To think that they will do less is illogical.
I looked. I didn't see any. Can you provide a link to threads on this site where some innocent CharOps advocates were beaten silly and kicked to the curb? I'm not seeing them either.I was asking for people to find troublesome optimizers who were jerks and bring about the end of the forums as we know it.
When did I make a illusions towards real life? If you want to play a combat monster with no personality, more power to you(not to say a person in the navy seals have no personality god knows I voted for one for GOV)just not in my game.
No one wants that. No one builds that, except maybe for arena games, or straight dungeon crawls.
I don't want a walled fiefdom, I want a good and convenient place to talk about a very niche subject. If you think that's the general forum, I'll try it. If it doesn't work, I suppose I'll just have to leave or come back here and necromancy this thread.
It is my inclination, however, to have a subforum for a variety of reasons.
It helps make people like me feel wanted or welcome. I know that sounds odd, but having a specific place for something that may be bizarre, like my spock build, is really nice.
It is my inclination, however, to have a subforum for a variety of reasons.
It helps make people like me feel wanted or welcome. I know that sounds odd, but having a specific place for something that may be bizarre, like my spock build, is really nice.
I understand why you want a subforum man, my point is that you should prove the community is there before the subforum is partitioned off, not the other way around.
As for walled fiefdoms, that crack was more about peoples' positions like 'munhkins suxxors' or 'Go play VtM you whiny wannabe actor.' than subforums. I want a subforum for the OTD freeform game, so I feel your pain, but there is nothing stopping you from posting in the regular established forums. If enough ChapOp folks did this, then I guarantee you you'd get your forum quickly. Getting the forum first just seems like putting the cart before the horse IMO.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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I don't want a walled fiefdom, I want a good and convenient place to talk about a very niche subject. If you think that's the general forum, I'll try it. If it doesn't work, I suppose I'll just have to leave or come back here and necromancy this thread.
If several [CharOps] threads begin but are derailed by anti-CharOps stuff, I'll necromancy the thread for you.
When did I make a illusions towards real life? If you want to play a combat monster with no personality, more power to you(not to say a person in the navy seals have no personality god knows I voted for one for GOV)just not in my game.But playing an effective warrior does not mean you have no personality. This is a false dichotomy. SEALs, as you yourself have said, have plenty of personality, as did, I am sure, Ghengis Khan, Attila the Hun, and Miyamoto Musashi.
Where did you get "combat monster with no personality" from? I am confused, please explain. I mean, you yourself said that it is not true in real life. If one were to play a realistic character, one could play a fierce warrior with plenty of roleplaying as well as rollplaying to back it up and there would be no problem, would there?
When a player tweaks out every skill point and every feat and could careless about the world around them, those are power gamers. The are selfish and the game is all about them them them!
When you create a strong will personality with thoughtful ideas, I could careless about the build as long as you dont try to bend the rules and ruin the game for everyone(which is what people do, when they pwr game).
Let's see if I can, then :: gentle smile ::
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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If I may may a comparison to racial prejudice, studies have shown that education and meaningful exposure to other races is the best way of reducing prejudice.
That's why all our schools, colleges, and workplaces are holding diversity training. (That and fear of lawsuits, at any rate.)
As stupid, corny, and lame as they often are, the basic principal is sound: the more you learn about different people, the more you interact with them, the less stereotypes you hold and the better you can get along.
If there is a divide, it is because people lack exposure to each other, not because they have too much exposure.
Nice analogy.
Fixed it for you, I think. The exposure is most effective when it is aimed not at 'becoming less racist' but on accomplishing something significant to all participants. A diverse group of people working together to get a new stop sign in the neighbourhood becomes less prejudiced through that interaction. A diverse group of people invited to talk about becoming less prejudiced becomes moreso.
In other words, this thread would be less effective at reducing prejudice than using CharOps to tackle a problem that is generally agreed upon.
Is there a problem that it is generally agreed is a problem?
Is there then a problem in this set of problems that you feel optimization or a body of individuals interested in such things could solve?
Maloo:
I have builds with 56 4th level spells per day and ranks in craft(cooking) and knowledge(gourmet).
I have a build who can cast any spell in the game, but uses changeling for the sake of using changeling.
I have a backstory three pages long, and unfinished, for a character who was just a quick gamebreak. He'll never see play.
You are boxing with shadows.
In other words, this thread would be less effective at reducing prejudice than using CharOps to tackle a problem that is generally agreed upon.
+1 I would also submit that some of us math-challenged DMs would love to be able to submit requests for BBEGs and have someone else do the math. That's where the CharOp gamists earn my love ... <3
There is alot of Hate for Optimization here on this board Im not sure why ussually people on Paizo boards are cool but for some reason you guys hate optimization I like a character with story just as much as the next guy but if you are going to get me and the rest of the party killed because you make a s&~#ty character im going to be pissed
I think there is room for everyone on this board so all the Char Opt hate needs to stop
+1 I would also submit that some of us math-challenged DMs would love to be able to submit requests for BBEGs and have someone else do the math. That's where the CharOp gamists earn my love ... <3
In other words, this thread would be less effective at reducing prejudice than using CharOps to tackle a problem that is generally agreed upon.
Done and done. You'll find a thread in general.
If I may may a comparison to racial prejudice, studies have shown that education and exposure to other races is the best way of reducing prejudice.
That's why all our schools, colleges, and workplaces are holding diversity training. (That and fear of lawsuits, at any rate.)
As stupid, corny, and lame as they often are, the basic principal is sound: the more you learn about different people, the more you interact with them, the less stereotypes you hold and the better you can get along.
If there is a divide, it is because people lack exposure to each other, not because they have too much exposure.
So you are saying that you are born a pwr gamer, just like a African-American or Native American(like my self) or maybee its a belief system, you worship some great pwr gamer or gamers in the sky?
*Fiddles while Rome burns*
Done and done. You'll find a thread in general.
Sweet! I'll have to post about an infiltrator Erinyes I have had in my mind ...
MUAHAHAHAHA!
Runs shreiking into the trees
So you are saying that you are born a pwr gamer, just like a African-American or Native American(like my self) or maybee its a belief system, you worship some great pwr gamer or gamers in the sky?
No, not really what we were saying at all. Smooth.
There is a great power gamer in the sky, named Pun Pun. But he doesn't need or desire worship.
I'm not really sure what the relevance of evoking race relations, eccumenical harmony, or Navy SEALS has to do with the need to create a new sub section to the forums, other than to try and add emotional weight to an argument.
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I have no problem with a CharOp sub forum, as long as (and don't take this personally if you do have social skills) the condescending a#&##%$s who think decorum is a waste of verbiage stay away. I think the offended party in this thread needs to take a gander at the old playtest threads, and, if he thinks the level of discourse from some of the CharOp/Gamer's Den folk in those threads is acceptable, maybe these boards aren't the place to be...
I have no problem with a CharOp sub forum, as long as (and don't take this personally if you do have social skills) the condescending a#!~~@@s who think decorum is a waste of verbiage stay away. I think the offended party in this thread needs to take a gander at the old playtest threads, and, if he thinks the level of discourse from some of the CharOp/Gamer's Den folk in those threads is acceptable, maybe these boards aren't the place to be...
houstonderek, in his wisdom, has brought up a good point that I missed when I was trying to point out where some of this angst is coming from. A good deal of people, people that had never posted on Paizo's forums before, came over during the playtest for the Beta and quite bluntly told many of us we were idiots for not valuing the same things in the rules that they did. Many of them did seem to look at things from the CharOp point of view.
This is not to say that everyone that is into CharOps would be like this, only that past experience on these very boards might lead people to be a bit leery of setting out the welcome mat.
Gamer's Den is a particularly painful example. I'm not fond of them either, so I guess I understand that perspective.
To be fair, many of the issues they raised remained in the beta versions that I was privy to, such as the problems with polymorph. I guess if they are your baseline, I understand.
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There is alot of Hate for Optimization here on this board Im not sure why ussually people on Paizo boards are cool but for some reason you guys hate optimization...
It's pretty easy to understand really. Alot of folks from the Paizo forums (probably not a majority, but a non-trivial number), came here as things became more contentious over a Wizards. They were looking for a friendlier atmosphere.
When the playtest was announced and progressed, there were alot of posters mostly unfamiliar with the Paizo community culture who came over to post their thoughts. Many of them (used to the atmosphere on other boards) posted in, what is considered here, to be an inflammatory manner.
The core Paizo community (who thought they had gotten away from such behavior) balked at the posting style of newer posters (much of which amounted to "manners are irrelevant as long as the analysis is correct"). this lead to bad blood been the two groups, tempers flared, things were said, and some posters got banned.
Needless to say, there are still some bad feelings because that was an unpleasant time on the boards. Don't be surprised if you find posters unwilling to actively invite that particular subculture back.
-Skeld
Now I know what this thread reminds me of. All the baptists locally arguing against opening an adult book story inside city limits. So the guy opened it ten feet outside the city. It got plenty of business, the owner never said anything when those that wouldn't let him open inside the city came in to buy his wares, simply sold them. Now crime never got worse, several people got jobs, and a product was sold.
Same here.
Also part of keeping rude people away the Mod's job. Actively preventing those that are over the edge of polite behavior from posting, just like we should generally not respond to those over the limit of polite behavior.
Now I know what this thread reminds me of. All the baptists locally arguing against opening an adult book story inside city limits. So the guy opened it ten feet outside the city. It got plenty of business, the owner never said anything when those that wouldn't let him open inside the city came in to buy his wares, simply sold them. Now crime never got worse, several people got jobs, and a product was sold.
Same here.
I was about to say the same thing, but using strip clubs. Anyway, the point is that if you don't like X Y or Z then don't participate.
The other issue is that people need to stop confusing optimization with being a munchkin. Even if some player tries to use a theoretical character they found on the boards in your game it is not the forum's fault. The fault lies with your player's view of the game, and you may have to sit down with him and explain why certain things can't be allowed even if they are legal by the rules and/or make sense common sense wise[coughs] keen and improved critical [/coughs].Most players have a decent idea of what their DM's will or wont allow in a game, so even if they go looking for ideas it should not be an issue and it saves time.
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Also part of keeping rude people away the Mod's job. Actively preventing those that are over the edge of polite behavior from posting, just like we should generally not respond to those over the limit of polite behavior.
:) Of course we want the mods working on their other jobs and spending as little time moderating as possible.
I do not think the crowd that came over during the beta playtest are a representative sample of the CO boards. I followed the CO boards for a couple of years and used it as a resource much in the way the GM Reference threads for the adventure paths are used here. If I had an oddball character theme or idea that I wanted supported by the rules mechanics, a post or a perusal of the reference threads usually yielded all the information required. It was nice to have all the crunchy information condensed in one location, which the community did their best to index / sticky.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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When players tweak out every skill point and every feat and couldn't care less about the world around their PCs, those are power gamers. They are selfish and the game is all about them-them-them!When you create a strong will personality with thoughtful ideas, I couldn't care less about the build as long as you don't try to bend the rules and ruin the game for everyone (which is what people do, when they power-game).
Hi, Maloo.
With respect and sympathy, I think you're off-base here. Everything in that post is an expression of your own gaming style. You don't like people "tweaking" their characters' skills and feats. You think it's important for players to pay attention to the campaign world.
First, I share your opinion. That's the style of play I like, too.
Second, we are not the kings of the world. Some people like different styles of play. They're not bad. They're not wrong. They're not selfish, except in the way that everybody around a gaming table is selfish as they want a satisfying experience. They're not trying to ruin the game.
Your posts are coming across as really aggressive and ill-considered. You might consider apologizing.
Gamer's Den is a particularly painful example. I'm not fond of them either, so I guess I understand that perspective.
To be fair, many of the issues they raised remained in the beta versions that I was privy to, such as the problems with polymorph. I guess if they are your baseline, I understand.
I think that's part of it.
For some people, long in the D&D tooth, Character Optimization comes across as something like Magic deck design, rather than old style AD&D, where you rolled up your fighter and were glad your DM allowed you 4d6-take-the-best-three.
(To those people, I'll remind them about Champions, a game straight out of the early 80's, for which efficient character design was an essential skill.)
Speaking for myself, it's a matter of, well, distasteful memories. I've never run into any really aggressive anti-optimization people (well, not in real life). But have you ever tried bringing a non-optimized character to a Living Greyhawk tournament, or any other organized play campaign, at a convention? Wow. Nobody wants your PC at their table, and the DM will be happy to see your "six ranks in Perform (dance)" monk die off quickly.
--+--+--
Would it be fruitless for me to point out explicitly that the range from "immersive role-player" to "character optimizer" is a continuum? To paraphrase George Carlin, "did you ever notice that everybody who optimizes better than you, is a maniac? And that everybody who builds worse characters than you do, is an idiot? It's a wonder we get any gaming done at all, with all the maniacs and idiots in the hobby!"
DocRoc, an admitted optimizer, is uneasy around the Gaming Den folks. And is there anybody here who wouldn't arm their fighters with martial weapons, even when it'd be possible to provide an in-character reason to prefer a shortsword?
So, I'm asking people to get a little perspective here. Nobody is the enemy.
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Wait . . . you don't agree with Fake Healer on a topic in a thread, and you don't like him, as a person? I'm sorry, I don't care how erudite your execution of the statement is, that bothers me. You haven't talked to Fake Healer in other threads about other topics. You don't know him as a person. I don't know what your opinion is on a variety of topics, but I wouldn't say that I don't like you based on your opinions expressed in one thread, no matter how vehemently.He's called me an asshat three or four times now. That's not how I want to be talked to. Forgive me my snap judgements. I too have flaws. I'd be delighted to find out he's a generally good dude, but right now, all he's done is talk down to me.
I would love to see where I called you, personally, an asshat or any other put-down. I have said that there appears to be a couple of people posting here that are mature and seem to be respectful of others that are advocating a Charop section. I was referring to you and a couple others on this thread. If you would look over my posts I also said that In My Experience I have seen a lot of immature, asshats, etc. on the WOTC charop boards but that there are some who aren't like that and that my fear is that both types will come (bad outwaying the good and all that). I didn't even make a generalization that you could take as me calling you a name without you seriously warping my posts and ignoring a ton of my words.
Perhaps my first opinion of you was flawed (the mature and respectful parts) but I hope it is just that you perhaps missed some words in my posts or misconstrued my language in some way.Also I haven't talked down to you, I've tried to explain my thoughts on a matter where I was asked for my thoughts.
Now I actually will talk down to you. Sorry if my disagreeing with your opinion makes you not like me as a person. I am sure I will lose sleep over it.
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... wow people argue a lot O_O
I just wanted to throw in that our gaming table is usually very heavy RP and story line. Often times we might only have a half dozen fights or so in a session or sometimes less depending on how much story/rp we're doing.
However at the same time, the players like to optimize their characters and that's ok too. They should be happy with THEIR characters. So long as they have a story to go with everything, it's all good.
I think there are a lot more "In betweeners" then people might think that don't get to speak up. You can have the best of both worlds if you want and I've never found it gamebreaking. It MIGHT mean as a DM you have to challenge them more but also sometimes not.