This brings a question to my mind :
Is Ao still part of Toril's pantheon ?
Or did he vanish ?
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It's been a while since I read the ToT series ... why was Ao cheesed off in the first place again? Some tablet-whatsits or something?
He made some tablets that served no purpose whatever and said, 'Don't steal these,' and, OH WHAT A SHOCK, some evil gods got drunk and dared each other to steal them. I'm almost positive I heard Bhaal say, 'Hold my beer, this will be funny...' before they stole the tablets.
Since the tablets were all part of an elaborate prank, the gods that stole them got bupkiss out of the deal. (Well, actually, they got KILLED out of the deal.) So apparently when Ao says, 'Don't steal this' he means, 'This is a death-trap for stupid people' and Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul were the three stupidest gods in Faerun, so they are the ones that grabbed for the bait.
Mystra just died because she got impatient and tried to fix things on her own, rather than let the world continue going to hell like Ao was doing.
And then the goddess of lies and trickery got an invitation to meet the god of murder who'd just stabbed the god of assassins in the back in a dark alley and to come alone and not tell her parents where she was going, but since he said he had candy, she got in the van anyway, and now she's on a milk cartoon.
He sold them his kid and for a decent sum. The deal he made worked out very well for him. He's working on a new world anyway, Candleburn I think it's called.
Actually, Castlemourn.
Essentially Ao was ticked off that the gods weren't tending their followers and minding their portfolios, and the Tablets were kind of a "gotcha" moment for proving that they were more worried about scheming against one another than doing what they were suppose to be doing.
Yeah, what they said . . .
Oh, and I have no idea if I'm still employed either . . . my agent won't even call me back.
And then the goddess of lies and trickery got an invitation to meet the god of murder who'd just stabbed the god of assassins in the back in a dark alley and to come alone and not tell her parents where she was going, but since he said he had candy, she got in the van anyway, and now she's on a milk cartoon.
Hahaha
As a matter of fact i kinda liked her, but presented this way... :D|
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And then the goddess of lies and trickery got an invitation to meet the god of murder who'd just stabbed the god of assassins in the back in a dark alley and to come alone and not tell her parents where she was going, but since he said he had candy, she got in the van anyway, and now she's on a milk cartoon.Hahaha
As a matter of fact i kinda liked her, but presented this way... :D
Oh, she was probably my favorite Realms god(dess), particularly the fun of a masked priesthood that had all sorts of contradictory ranks that changed day to day, and ran the tourist information center in Waterdeep.
And she died like a chump.
And she died like a chump.
Or... Did she ?
Dun dun dun
Essentially Ao was ticked off that the gods weren't tending their followers and minding their portfolios, and the Tablets were kind of a "gotcha" moment for proving that they were more worried about scheming against one another than doing what they were suppose to be doing.
Thanks guys!
Am I the only one who thinks it sounds like maybe the Spellplague is Ao saying "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again"?
I don't know... As i said, i am not not sure if Ao is still part of the Forgotten Realms cosmology...
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Am I the only one who thinks it sounds like maybe the Spellplague is Ao saying "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again"?
I can't recall where they stated this, but if I recall correctly, Rich Baker or one of the other designers stated that they were basically just not going to mention Ao again, and thus quietly put him out to pasture (Hey, beats what happened to Mystra, the Chosen, Eilistraee, or any number of others).
Set - I think that was probably the most humorous summary of the Time of Troubles I've ever seen. :D
He never was part of the Pantheon and there was never an Ao clergy save for shortly after the Time of Troubles.
Agreed.
What i mean is : Is Ao still part of the Forgotten Realms or did WotC just erase him to fit better the new 4gotten Realms concept ?
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He never was part of the Pantheon and there was never an Ao clergy save for shortly after the Time of Troubles.Agreed.
What i mean is : Is Ao still part of the Forgotten Realms or did WotC just erase him to fit better the new 4gotten Realms concept ?
Bearing in mind the care shown with the rest of the Realms? What do you think the answer is? Ao obviously got a papercut and passed out from pain. he's still around, just comatose and so to available to actually appear.
That reminds me a foolish theory which appeared when Dark Sun came out.
Some people speculated that Athas (Dark Sun's planet) was actually nothing else than the future of Toril, after some major cataclysm.
The name "Dark Sun" was supposed to be a reference to the main actor in this cataclysm, none other than the Dark Sun god... Cyric.
Well, after the Spellplague, the same theory could revive if you imagine what could happen when Cyric will break free...
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The rational side of me realizes that I have enough FR material in my collection (almost everything from the gray box until the end of 3.5) to run it the way I want to without a care in the world for what has changed in the 4th Ed. version. But the creative side of me, the side that dove into this setting from the very beginning and loved everything about it as it grew and matured, feels like this is fundamentally wrong. It may have been 'legal' to do it, but it was most assuredly not 'just'. It feels like a betrayal of trust to me, and I know I'm not the only one who feels that way about it.
Wrong. Injust. Betrayal of trust.
Wholehearted agreement.
The rational side of me realizes that I have enough FR material in my collection (almost everything from the gray box until the end of 3.5) to run it the way I want to without a care in the world for what has changed in the 4th Ed. version. But the creative side of me, the side that dove into this setting from the very beginning and loved everything about it as it grew and matured, feels like this is fundamentally wrong. It may have been 'legal' to do it, but it was most assuredly not 'just'. It feels like a betrayal of trust to me, and I know I'm not the only one who feels that way about it.
Wrong. Injust. Betrayal of trust.
Wholehearted agreement.
Yep, walking away from this sad, sorry mess. Our FR-playing game group fractured in two thanks to 4e and now even the 4e players have switched to Dark Heresy.
Game Over.
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Besides the fact that they created an entirely new setting and are trying to pass it off as FR, the new setting is really just re-hashed generic fantasy fare, so it doesn't really jump out and grab new players either. They destroyed the existing fan-base and didn't even create something interesting enough to replace it (obviously saving their best ideas for their novels, and using all the crap for their 'day job').
Add to that that they took out ALL powerful female characters (silly women... thinking they could come out of the kitchen that way), and took the advanced black culture that was in Chult (Mezro) and destroyed it, turning the clock back so that they are all now half-nakit savage spear-chuckers (some of which practice cannibalism) running around the jungles shouting "Unga Bunga!".
This looks like something created in 1978, not 2008.
Markus - What a profound insight for those who hadn't looked at the racial aspect of the changes. I love the fact that PAIZO integrates black and white and other ethnic characters into the game without resorting to steriotypes.
The point you've made in your post will truly have me looking at this all over again in a new way. Thanks.
Basically what Wizards put out was a trash heap with the Forgotten realms label put on it. A complete dissolution of cosmology. From what I know and correct me if Im wrong there will only be source material concerning the Realms for one year. After that they will go to another cosmos and do the same. But I have a couple of questions what about Larloch. Is larloch still around or did he enter an early retirment pension plan along with AO. I hope they didnt touch him. And Ironfang Keep has that mystery been resolved yet??? Last one is Queen Amlaruil still around.
Technically, the initial release is only 3 books. They haven't said they wouldn't do more if it sold well though, so I suppose it really depends. Also, so far Eberron seems largely unchanged for its release next year.
Cheers! :)
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The "Dark Sun as the future of the Forgotten Realms is a great idea."
4e as the distant past of the Forgotten Realms is also a great idea.
In the old D&D world of Mystara, the scientific/magic world of Blackmoor (Arneson's original milieu) lay in the distant past, allowing for stories to be told in one world where everything could change but there was still impact and still continuity.
The beauty of fantasy is that we can create these worlds without needing to invalidate the past or run up against doctrine about just how old any given world is.
I have seen so many alternative ideas put out here that I am marvelling anew at how pedestrian the 4e reboot really is. When I add in the fact, just pointed out, that what was destroyed were almost all of the powerful women, the non-European non-medieval cultures, and that the entire cosmos was rearranged due to the murder of one god (whose role has become so much more central to the divine order that she seems more like the Egyptian Ma'at than any mere goddess of magic), I have to balk.
The ToT was simplistic and unnecessary (witness the resurrection of Bane because the milieu needed a tyrant god) and the struggles that Cyric and Midnight's humanity caused the setting (how come Kelemvor handled ascension so easily btw?) unbalanced the world in a very Dragonlance kind of way (the gods are the only actors with real power, stop trying silly adventurer) but it was survivable because the Realms were so big.
Post Spell-plague, the Realms are a lot smaller. Smaller, in fact, than many of the homebrew worlds I have adventured in. With that in mind, why would anyone buy a world that is smaller than one they can invent in just a couple of hours?
In the end, that is what I think will hurt the Realms 4e. The upset by current fans will cost plenty but it is nothing like the realization that new fans will have upon discovering that they can make their own worlds richer and deeper than the realms just by imagining them.
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He never was part of the Pantheon and there was never an Ao clergy save for shortly after the Time of Troubles. I do remember Elminster remarking later on in the Avatar series that knowledge of Ao seemed to disappearing from the Realms, it's quite likely since he does not rely on worship that he actively purges any knowledge from his existence from almost everyone.
Hmm, maybe these memory purges were also inflicted upon the designers of the new FR?
I'm quietly hoping that in a few years 4E Forgotten Realms will ultimately be revealed to be nothing but a fantasy existing inside an autistic boy's snow globe.
Or Elminster will wake up next to some woman from before the Spellplague and ask her why she never wears sweaters.
I'm quietly hoping that in a few years 4E Forgotten Realms will ultimately be revealed to be nothing but a fantasy existing inside an autistic boy's snow globe.Or Elminster will wake up next to some woman from before the Spellplague and ask her why she never wears sweaters.
... or walk in on Mystara in the shower.
Hm . . . that covers most of the 80s end of series ret con, I think . . .
Hm . . . that covers most of the 80s end of series ret con, I think . . .
Well, there is that 70's one of that cool motorcycle guy on waterskis and something about a shark .....
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Or Elminster will wake up next to some woman from before the Spellplague and ask her why she never wears sweaters.
The Symbul wakes from a dream about the Spellplague and hears water running in the bathroom. When she enters the bathroom and opens the shower door she sees Elminster, who smiles at her and says "Good morning!".
***Edit: I need to stop paying attention to "Monk" reruns and type faster.***
4e jumped the shark, 4e FR is just the same show continuing on after Richie left.Hm . . . that covers most of the 80s end of series ret con, I think . . .Well, there is that 70's one of that cool motorcycle guy on waterskis and something about a shark .....
So 4e is "Joanie loves Chachi"?
EDIT: and what a horrible career move on Richie's part
***Edit: I need to stop paying attention to "Monk" reruns and type faster.***
You should *never* stop paying attention to "Monk" reruns!!!
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Or Elminster will wake up next to some woman from before the Spellplague and ask her why she never wears sweaters.The Symbul wakes from a dream about the Spellplague and hears water running in the bathroom. When she enters the bathroom and opens the shower door she sees Elminster, who smiles at her and says "Good morning!".
I have the same vision on it's Mystra in the shower.
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So, just because I stopped reading the books after Sea of Swords and finding out that "4gotten Realmz" have advanced 100+ years, what happened to Wulfgar, Catti-Bree, Regis and Artemis?? I would assume that Drizzt is still alive (pending battle death) and MAYBE Bruenor, but the others are human/halfling and AGE quickly. Can anyone shed some light on this for me?
So, just because I stopped reading the books after Sea of Swords and finding out that "4gotten Realmz" have advanced 100+ years, what happened to Wulfgar, Catti-Bree, Regis and Artemis?? I would assume that Drizzt is still alive (pending battle death) and MAYBE Bruenor, but the others are human/halfling and AGE quickly. Can anyone shed some light on this for me?
In the latest novel, it is strongly implied that Drizzt is the only survivor of the original crew.
I have a suspicion as to why WOTC is doing this. They wanted to legally own the rights simply so they could shut it down and then sue anybody who tried to use anything Realms-related without a license. They then won't give that license to anybody who chooses to follow the original Realms lore.
They don't want the Realms as we know it to exist. They don't want Ravenloft, Dragonlance, or any other successful TSR campaign setting to exist. By buying the rights to these settings, and then basically ending the settings, they accomplish a critical business mission -- they silence the competition completely.
WotC already legally owned all of the TSR IP and settings after they took over TSR. They licensed some of the settings for development (for a regular fee) while they focused on the 3.x rules. The reason behind what they are doing now is something different than "silencing the competetion."
The focus on "branding" tells me that the corporate leadership is thinking almost entirely in marketing terms. What I believe is going on is that WotC is trying to apply a mass-market mentality to what is still a niche hobby (even if it's a fairly large niche and more mainstream than it was in the 1980s/90s): tie as much product to the popular brands as possible.
Unfortunately, mass-market mentality does not always work well with print products, especially when dealing with already established background/cannon (such the various D&D/AD&D/3.x settings). It takes effort on the part of both the authors and the editors to ensure that new product tied to an already existing brand does not conflict with or invalidate background/cannon or other products in the same line.
From what I've been able to gather, this is effort that WotC is not willing to invest. This was one of the reasons they licensed some of the 3.x settings in the first place. The business plan for 4e, judging from WotC's actions and the nature of the GSL, calls for a much tighter control over things by WotC. However, given WotC's lack of willingness to put forth the effort to maintain setting continuity, "nuking" the Realms (except for the most popular bits) so they could add as much product to the Realms "brand" makes certain amount of sense from their perspective.
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I am a 30-something year old attorney, and an avid fan of the Realms, having played one of my first PCs there in the 80s when the original boxed set came out. I have a suspicion as to why WOTC is doing this. They wanted to legally own the rights simply so they could shut it down and then sue anybody who tried to use anything Realms-related without a license. They then won't give that license to anybody who chooses to follow the original Realms lore.
They don't want the Realms as we know it to exist. They don't want Ravenloft, Dragonlance, or any other successful TSR campaign setting to exist. By buying the rights to these settings, and then basically ending the settings, they accomplish a critical business mission -- they silence the competition completely. Now, you can never find a true Realms product (unless its vintage), and nobody in the world will be allowed to ever publicly write, publish, author, or create ANYTHING whatsoever to do with the Realms at all, ever. Why? Because WOTC owns the full rights to those products now... but they intentionally will never use them, never allow them to see light of day again. They effectively have killed them from the commercial realm. You can freely keep playing them, and even do it online -- but you can't make a profit doing it. This way, they try to become the new big kid on the block. What they foolishy didn't realize was that the core die-hard RPG loyalists that TSR nurtured will not simply "forget" about their beloved Realms, or Krynn, or Oerth. They will simply walk away from WOTC products and keep playing and creating their own campaigns.
My PC got to visit the Hall of the Beasttamers and the School of Wizardry in that first set. He went on a mission to locate the missing Princess. He tried to find the Ring of Winter. He got to fight Red Wizards in the Pirate Isles, clash with the Cultists of the Dragon, and even commanded a ride of knights under the Purple Dragon banner during the Crusade. He traveled far and wide across those Inner Sea Lands, and even did some exploring in the old tombs of Mulhorand and Unther. Now, that PC won't be venturing into this new aberration falsely claiming to be the Forgotten Realms. Instead, he's an NPC in a Cormyr that still exists in the Realms you always knew. And future gamers will get to learn from his experiences, and perhaps get hired by him to go on some quests into Mulhorand, Unther, and even the PLATEAUS of Thay. Toril is still Toril in that campaign. And Elminster is still in Shadowdale. And a rabbit is not always a rabbit. WOTC will realize one day how unsuccessful a business decision this was. And one day, the Realms may return. For now, they are simply FORGOTTEN...
Ao bless the Forgotten Realms! As it was in third edition, so shall it forever be. World without a "nuke" end. Huzzah!
Scot Calili - thanks for your post. I hope Slavicsec & the sheep at wotc who frequently read PAIZO messageboards to get ideas, sink low in their chairs today when they read the passion you've written here.
...so they could add as much product to the Realms "brand" makes certain amount of sense from their perspective.
As always, you make a good point (no issues with your post). New thought: Do we really need to appreciate the perspective of people who think in the terms you've listed ("gotta add more product to that brand")? My view: they're engaged thinking like as$ho!es, not of steward of our game, not of gamers, not with the betterment of the player experience in mind.
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My years-long campaign died soon after the Time of Troubles, when I realized that the new game books were reflecting the changes from those novels, and that Bane, Bhaal, Myrkul, etc. were really dead, and Yuckpoo Zim, 'the Baneson' or whoever was replacing Bane. Compared to how fast the Time of Troubles sent me running back to Greyhawk, I would not be surprised to see this Spellplague thing turn long-time fans off to the setting even faster.
I kinda feel bad for Ed Greenwood. This setting was pretty much his baby, and they've asked him to come out and plead with the fans to give it a chance.
"We've kidnapped your kid, and replaced him with this...
Bhaal would live in my campaign, if it wasn't for the fact that I am so enamoured with Cyric (who will fully retain the portfolio).
Your last comment was priceless. I can just picture such a half-child spewing vitriol at an old Realms game table:
"Thisss campaign ssuckss. It would be sso much better if magic users were not the mosst powerful people. I have taken the liberty of ussing sscisssors and shapiesss to edit your FRCSsss. Your Deitiesss chapter isss now 2 pagesss. No chart iss necessssary. Now give me money! No electrum piecesss pleasssse!"