The sniping is getting worse. Misinformation, disinformation, 4evil, kewl, munckin, creatively-challenged, MMORPG, sheeple, yada, yada, yada.
The signal to noise ratio is dropping rapidly. Any civil dialogue is drowned out quickly.
It seems that this board in unwanted by the Paizo community so why not just shut it down?
CWM, I think you are taking things a little personal. Relax a bit. There are a lot of good stuff to talk here.
We are talking about a hobby. Sometimes, you seem to treat things as if your personal honor is involved.
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I personally agree with Eric. The increase in inflammatory rhetoric was almost an inevitable effect of the actual rules release. Eventually the worst of the complaining will phase out. As Aubrey pointed out, there are already 4e related rules discussions and the like popping up that have some great stuff in them. There are unfortunately a large number of folks that need to vent, and a nearly as large number of folks that want to gloat about 4e release. Comments like "Feasting on the dead carcasse of the Vancian sacred cow" are not harmless observations. They are the reaction of a group of fans that can't wait to rub it in the face of the 3e crowd that their game is dead.
Eventually, this sort of stuff will stop when both sides realize there is nothing left to be gained from engaging in it. I personally want there to be a 4e section of this boards where players and fans of the new system can interact and enjoy themselves without every thread devolving into a 4e crapfest. In the short term, for those who don't want to deal with negative 4e outbursts here, the WotC forums are heavily moderated and have a unilaterally positive 4e view by design. I might suggest hanging out there for a week or two til the worst of the strom blows over here. Then come back and I think things will get better.
I think the board will eventually come through this. It is just going to take some time.
Maybe people could relax and take it easy.
Maybe they could have an open mind and act in a civil way, avoiding to insult or patronize the ones who don't share their opinion.
We are all talking about Dungeons & Dragons here, whether it's under 3.5, 4 or Pathfinder rules.
When the Paizo good people say they have other priorities than enforcing the police on these messageboards, they remind us that some things are more important than others, and maybe, maybe, they trust we can moderate ourselves, rather than being moderated or censured.
It's up to us to deserve this trust.
CrossWiredMind has some tough time defending D&D4 and even to merely talk about it.
Maybe sometimes he lacks diplomacy, mais in general he is calm.
He's not the only D&D4's advocate, but certainly the most exposed.
So that gives me an idea :
CrossWiredMind, why wouldn't you propose a D&D4 demo to the crowd here ?
As you have a positive opinion about the new system and its possibilities in roleplaying, maybe you could preach for the non-believers and show them the light ?
Of course, the point would be for the participants to be objective and open-minded, and to give it a chance.
Peace :)
This board needs to stay for 2 reasons:
1) Focus all the vitriol against 4e into one place, like a containment chamber .
and
2) Paizo needs a 4e board to post comments for when next year they start publishing 4e stuff.
The sniping is getting worse. Misinformation, disinformation, 4evil, kewl, munckin, creatively-challenged, MMORPG, sheeple, yada, yada, yada.
The signal to noise ratio is dropping rapidly. Any civil dialogue is drowned out quickly.
It seems that this board in unwanted by the Paizo community so why not just shut it down?
I agree.
ENWorld has basically become a 4E board in all but name so I pretty much don't go there anymore after visiting there daily for over 9 years.
I'd like these boards at least to be a refuge for those who are going to support a 3E / Pathfinder game and not have the 4E crowd go on about how broken 3E was and how awesome 4E is. There are any number of places (ENWorld / Gleemax) they can do that now.
I certainly would miss the 4e section if it was gone. I don't think it sounds like the game for me but a couple of people I know seem to like so eventually I may end up running a 4e campaign. I think shutting down the 4e section would seem like a definite snub to those interested in 4e as well as pathfinder. Admittedly if 6 months from now the board is still awash with flame and vitrol then it may be the only option but at this point I feel it is too early to take such a rdical step.
The sniping is getting worse. Misinformation, disinformation, 4evil, kewl, munckin, creatively-challenged, MMORPG, sheeple, yada, yada, yada.
The signal to noise ratio is dropping rapidly. Any civil dialogue is drowned out quickly.
It seems that this board in unwanted by the Paizo community so why not just shut it down?
I agree.
ENWorld has basically become a 4E board in all but name so I pretty much don't go there anymore after visiting there daily for over 9 years.
I'd like these boards at least to be a refuge for those who are going to support a 3E / Pathfinder game and not have the 4E crowd go on about how broken 3E was and how awesome 4E is. There are any number of places (ENWorld / Gleemax) they can do that now.
What about those of us who like and want to support both?
Don't we count?
You don't need to answer... we already know we don't. That's why so many of us, myself included, have left. I only came back because of the release of 4e, hoping to get some civil conversations, and I've seen some good ones. But I've also seen some nasty behavior on both sides of a conflict that shouldn't even have sides.
Can't people just enjoy the games they enjoy and not attack everyone who disagrees with them? What happened to gamers who played and enjoyed more than one system? I don't understand, I really don't, the desperate need people have for a refuge from 4e. I've liked and disliked things about every edition of the D&D game, from the basic set to 4e, and I suspect I will continue to do so. I've also engaged and will continue to engage in conversations about the different editions. Why is it some kind of threat to a supporter of pathfinder/3.5 for someone to like 4e? Why is a threat to a 4e supporter for someone to like 3.5 better? And the people who want me to choose? Those mystify me the most.
I will support pathfinder and 4e, because I expect both to be great games in different ways. I am hoping that these boards will return to a less vitriolic state so that I can enjoy them from that perspective.
- Ashavan
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Why is it some kind of threat to a supporter of pathfinder/3.5 for someone to like 4e? Why is a threat to a 4e supporter for someone to like 3.5 better? And the people who want me to choose? Those mystify me the most.
I will support pathfinder and 4e, because I expect both to be great games in different ways. I am hoping that...
QFT
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Seeing as Paizo has not rejected the possibility of doing a 4E project in the future (just not a Pathfinder 4E project), I don't see why they would close this board down, it would do them a disservice in the long run.
And although there's been a lot of... bad threads floating around in the 4E forums lately, it seems to me that there are also some good ones, discussing the rules and how many people actually like the changes as well as how they can be used to create interesting characters/adventures/what-have-you.
I think that the 4E boards will settle down. It'll just take time. And then everyone will have what they want. Once people get tired of posting the ranting about how 4E is the worst thing to happen since rampant fascism, the problem will be solved.
For now, I've said it before and I'll say it again: if things are getting too crazy, just take a break. Go do something fun!
Perhaps a dance?
OK, I tried to keep my mouth shut, but I need to say a few things even though some other people have spoken of the same thing before.
First things first:
I do not like 4th ed. I was initially enthusiastic about it, but when I carefully read through the books it became clear to me that it was not a system I liked. I was especially angry and bitter about what WotC is trying to achieve with the new edition. I am still very bitter and disappointed about the cancellation of Dragon and Dungeon and the rumors about the new GSL.
The above does not mean that 4th edition is a bad system or game. And certainly the people who like 4th ed and support WotC/Hasbro are not better or worse that the ppl who like 3.X/PRPG and support paizo.
I am very happy about the ppl who like 4th ed. Sincerely. And I hope they will enjoy the game and everything else associated with it. Personally I support PRPG and I am 100% behind paizo and the open design movement. For me it is a better alternative.
Some people should grow up and understand that name-calling, threadcraping, brainwashing and thought-policing are not only ineffective but crucially immoral. Just plain wrong.
Enjoy your choice and let other people enjoy theirs. If you want to vent your anger it would be far more constructive to put your money where your mouth is and support the company your prefer.
There also people who will not choose sides. And this will make things even more difficult for them. You see dicks from both "camps" won't stop bashing them for the "heresy". Give them a break.
And a final word of advise for the dicks from my "camp":
Alienating 4th edition fans won't do paizo and PRPG any favors. In fact you 're doing this community a great disservice. If the PRPG and paizo are going to survive this "schism" we are going to need every supporter we can find. In time people, who now support 4th edition might want to try PRPG and vice versa. While WotC/Habro can afford the luxury of alienating a substantial part of the fanbase paizo cannot. Think about it. You are accusing WotC of alienating you. Don't do the same to fellow gamers.
Cheers and happy gaming!
Post what you like about the game. Try not to get so caught up in what other people think.
Thank you for promoting such a mature and tolerant view of free speech and online discussion. It's hard to find defenders of open debate these days.
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Post what you like about the game. Try not to get so caught up in what other people think.Thank you for promoting such a mature and tolerant view of free speech and online discussion. It's hard to find defenders of open debate these days.
I will defend open debate until my very last breath. I want to hear all sides of any topic that interests me. Open debate is not a free for all where anyone can say anything to anyone in any form of speech they choose.
Paizo has rules for this board:
Talk about 4th Edition here. Politely. Personal attacks or insults directed at other members of the Paizo community, or other companies in the industry, will not be tolerated.
Open debate does not include any guarantee that an expressed opinion will go unchallenged or unquestioned. As long as the challenge is not a personal attack or a derogatory generalization it should not be unwelcome.
Just a tought...
Instead of trying to convert people to 4E or creating thread asking 'Why do you think that 4e don't promote RPG' and other similar thread that can only turn into flame war, why didn't we see more thread that discuss character build, Paizo adventures conversion, new races (Paizo gnome conversion), new homemade class (Barbarian, Druid, bard) or new powers? Instead of talking about 'my game system is the best and I don't understand how you can't see that', why not simply give the Paizo communauty tools and ideas to enjoy this new system...?
These recent posts haven't been inflammatory enough. I am kind of sad abou that. Funny this thread has been the most civil 4th e discussion i have ever seen... impressive.
On another note i would love to see the anti and pro crowd fight to the death. Good times.
I don't want to see the 4e boards go away because I plan to play Paizo adventures using the 4e system. I believe the conversion threads and other threads talking about the actual game (rather than the "is it good, is it bad" threads) will be invaluable for my gaming.
I understand CWM point of view though. Sometimes, certain individuals will pigeonhole 4e players as a certain type who plays MMORPG, has a lower intelligence, and uses the word, "kewl." As I don't believe that fits me at all, in any way, it can get tiresome.
I understand those sticking with 3e and Pathfinder gets called a grognard from time to time. I'm not sure being called a grognard has the same derogatory sense, but I agree that no one should be sterotyped - 3e players, 4e players, WoW players, Bella Sara players, or really anyone.
Instead of trying to convert people to 4E or creating thread asking 'Why do you think that 4e don't promote RPG' and other similar thread that can only turn into flame war, why didn't we see more thread that discuss character build, Paizo adventures conversion, new races (Paizo gnome conversion), new homemade class (Barbarian, Druid, bard) or new powers? Instead of talking about 'my game system is the best and I don't understand how you can't see that', why not simply give the Paizo communauty tools and ideas to enjoy this new system...?
The reason threads like "Why do you think that 4e don't promote RP" exist is that there is a lot of unsubstantiated talk that 4e doesn't promote roleplaying. I for one would like to know why people hold this opinion as I don't share it. And some of those who feel 4e doesn't promote roleplaying have good points, and yet some still haven't read or seen the rules, base their opinion on rumor and wild speculation. I think such threads could be used to at least get an intelligent dialogue going, rather than the misinformed, biased conjectures of people who just want to hate 4e no matter what.
Edit: BTW, I'm not trying to convert anyone - in fact, if I had a dime for everytime I heard someone say, "Try Pathfinder," on these 4e threads, I'd have at least 2 dollars! The point is, I would at least appreciate some informed, reasoned thought when it comes to people's opinion about 4e if they plan to enter these threads and discuss their likes and dislikes.
I've been DMing Dungeons and Dragons since 1978 and have been a faithful buyer and player to all editions and revisions.
I've held my opinion until I had a chance to buy the core rule set and I have to say - I'm disappointed. I won't go into detail or great lengths as to why I don't like it. Suffice it to say that I will continue to play 3.5 using my home grown campaign and supplement it with Paizo pathfinder products.
I always schill for Iron Heroes.
Personally, I come to these forums to read all the debate, constructive and destructive. I'm still in the process of deciding what i think about the new rules, and i want to see what others are thinking as well, good and bad.
After all these are the new rules that have been handed to us and they need to be mulled over, picked apart, debated, and fought over for many weeks and hopefully months to come. Not doing so and not participating in this debate/mudslinging shows that we are just accepting whatever is being force feed to us.
Sometimes the mudslinging cuts to heart of the matter and reveals what's really upsetting folks about the new system. Let the people speak! It's healthier than many give it credit, it shows that there is still much life and passion in D&D.
I totally agree with Whimsy Chris, except about the Bella Sara players. Everyone knows that they are all curmudgeonly lawyers with hearts of obsidian.
No, no. We can't be stereotyping like that. Just because I've never met a Bella Sara player who didn't fit that description (not one) doesn't mean they're not possible. Maybe not in my lifetime though...
What if 4th edition were called something else? Would it be judged so harshly?
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I've been DMing Dungeons and Dragons since 1978 and have been a faithful buyer and player to all editions and revisions.
I've held my opinion until I had a chance to buy the core rule set and I have to say - I'm disappointed. I won't go into detail or great lengths as to why I don't like it. Suffice it to say that I will continue to play 3.5 using my home grown campaign and supplement it with Paizo pathfinder products.
I think that is very cool. You made an informed decision and expressed an opinion. I respect that very very much. I also respect those that delve into their reasons for choosing 3e over 4e.
The unwelcome feeling comes from those that share your choice but feel the need to belittle those that chose a different path.
I am sorry you are disappointed with 4e and I hope you continue to have vast amounts of fun playing and running 3.5.
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So that gives me an idea :
CrossWiredMind, why wouldn't you propose a D&D4 demo to the crowd here ?
As you have a positive opinion about the new system and its possibilities in roleplaying, maybe you could preach for the non-believers and show them the light ?
Of course, the point would be for the participants to be objective and open-minded, and to give it a chance.Peace :)
Well, in theory I like the idea of show-me-don't-tell-me, however I do not want to convert anyone from their chosen game to 4e. I also prefer the face to face game experience. I used to play LG on the Net but I need more interaction than the technology currently allows.
That being said - I am willing to GM a game of 4e for anyone in the Philly area.
Greetings.
I'm going to "weigh in" with my thoughts on Pathfinder RPG and D&D 4E.
At first I was angry about the 4th editon announcement. But I was encouraged by Paizo's Pathfinder AP and decided to throw my support behind them. (Anyone at paizo customer service can verify my bonafides in that regard.) Not to mention the little "superscriber and subscriber" honorifics behind my "name."
Anyway... enough back-patting... what I started saying was I was upset about 4E. Then I learned a little more about it. And anger gave way to curiousity. The 4E preview books came out and I was intrigued, enough to buy them and read them. Now... I consider myself one of those folks "in both camps" in so far as I still ADORE Pathfinder, but I think 4E isn't as bad as everyone thinks. It's new. (Much like the Pathfinder RPG) and requires playing and playtesting and feedback. I've read and heard about some of the posting (civil and uncivil) regarding the PRPG Alpha releases, and some of them were pretty bad. Jason had to step in and ask the posters to stop, actually playtest the new material, and then give their opinions. (And these were supposedly Pathfinder FANS mind you.)
I'm glad that paizo's Pathfinder line is keeping the 3.5 rules set (albeit modified), and not changing over to 4E. But paizo isn't shooting themselves in the foot either, they are leaving themselves open to partnerships with other game companies to support 4E with other games.
I know it's not going to happen anytime soon (as Mr. Erik Mona has so sagely pointed out) what with the heatwave, the new edition coming out just over the weekend, and all manner of other things... but I hope we the gaming community can at least agree to disagree, and continue to play and support our favorite games and game companies, whoever they might be.
Regards,
Dean; the Minstrel Wyrm
Dead Horse has already appeared.
Can Vomit Guy be far behind?
I have a serious medical condition that causes me to throw up in my mouth everytime I read something stupid.
Post what you like about the game. Try not to get so caught up in what other people think.
Yay. My hero.
I don't think it's naive, or, to the extent it is, it's the good kind of naivete that keeps people voting and giving to African orphans. Things were terrible here and then the Pathfinder announcement came, and they settled down. It looked as though both parties were happy: people unhappy about 4e got Pathfinder and people happy about 4e were getting 4e. To have the level of hatred get cranked back up in the past week or so has been something of a shock, particularly after such a wonderful period of peace.But everything is not going to get better in the week of the new edition's release, and it's naive to think otherwise.
As Eric said though, the 4E rules are finally really out there now so a lot of people are looking at the real thing now and feeling a need a vent (or mourn or whatever) which is why there is a sudden spike in debate and dissent. I would expect it to die down in a month or so and people will mostly go back to their own camps playing their game/version of choice.
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As Eric said though, the 4E rules are finally really out there now so a lot of people are looking at the real thing now and feeling a need a vent (or mourn or whatever) which is why there is a sudden spike in debate and dissent.
I can understand the desire to vent, but why does venting need to happen without regard for others? If someone wants to vent and get it off their chest then go write a blog post. Or start a thread called "4e venting in progress - no debate allowed".
Much of the venting here has been disruptive, inflammatory, derogatory, and accusative. It is as if sharing ones pain was not enough - others must feel the pain as if it were their own.
Perhaps topics with loaded titles like "Abandoning the fans?" attracts the wrong sort of poster to the 4E board.
Just a thought.
Dead Horse has already appeared.
Can Vomit Guy be far behind?
As Mr. Guy's legal counsel I can clearly state that he will NOT be making an appearance in this thread. Mr. Guy has a unique form of humorous dialogue which has proven too much for the delicate constitutions of some of the residents of these message boards, hereinafter referred to as The Complaintiffs. In the interest of The Complaintiffs safety, as well as the well-being of their mental faculties, Mr. Guy will remain in exile in the Off Topic section of the aforementioned boards.
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Perhaps topics with loaded titles like "Abandoning the fans?" attracts the wrong sort of poster to the 4E board.
Just a thought.
And possibly a very valid thought. I started that thread because the accusations of abandonment kept popping up in other threads. I wanted to explore the idea so I started a different thread so as not to completely jack the others.
I can see why it became a bile magnet but I think it would have been worse to clutter an unrelated thread.
Man, Vomit Guy used to be all about the fans...and the vomit.
He's getting way too political.
I guess having a mortgage and a kid on the way can really change a man.
As Mr. Guy's legal counsel I can clearly state that he will NOT be making an appearance in this thread. Mr. Guy has a unique form of humorous dialogue which has proven too much for the delicate constitutions of some of the residents of these message boards, hereinafter referred to as The Complaintiffs. In the interest of The Complaintiffs safety, as well as the well-being of their mental faculties, Mr. Guy will remain in exile in the Off Topic section of the aforementioned boards.Dead Horse has already appeared.
Can Vomit Guy be far behind?
Man, Vomit Guy used to be all about the fans...and the vomit.
He's getting way too political.I guess having a mortgage and a kid on the way can really change a man.
Mr. Guy's marital and parental status are private affairs, and he'd prefer if they stay that way. However, I have been authorized to state unequivocally that the rumor that he is the father of a certain Hollywood starlet's child is completely false.
Man, Vomit Guy used to be all about the fans...and the vomit.
He's getting way too political.I guess having a mortgage and a kid on the way can really change a man.
Yeah. Vomit Guy used to be cool. Now he's a total sellout.
I heard he even wrote a pop song.
Perhaps topics with loaded titles like "Abandoning the fans?" attracts the wrong sort of poster to the 4E board.
Just a thought.
And possibly a very valid thought. I started that thread because the accusations of abandonment kept popping up in other threads. I wanted to explore the idea so I started a different thread so as not to completely jack the others.
I can see why it became a bile magnet but I think it would have been worse to clutter an unrelated thread.
That's fair enough and I appreciate that forethought.
Sometimes I see the internet as a bunch of people treating each other as if they worked in the service industry. Yelling at people about things that cannot be controlled and saying things that would get them popped in the nose if the other person weren't wearing a name tag.
Man, Vomit Guy used to be all about the fans...and the vomit.
He's getting way too political.I guess having a mortgage and a kid on the way can really change a man.
Yeah. Vomit Guy used to be cool. Now he's a total sellout.
I heard he even wrote a pop song.
Please note that the above post can be considered libel. If a retraction is not offered, I may be forced to take some form of legal action on behalf of my client.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Guys,
There is a 0% chance of us shutting down this forum, so while I encourage you to continue discussion regarding how to be polite to one another I'd also encourage no one to worry that Paizo is going to shutter this folder because things are a little feisty this week.
This needs to be stickied:
The main rule here is (or ought to be): DON'T BE A DICK.
Maybe people could relax and take it easy.
Maybe they could have an open mind and act in a civil way, avoiding to insult or patronize the ones who don't share their opinion.
We are all talking about Dungeons & Dragons here, whether it's under 3.5, 4 or Pathfinder rules.
Guess I was misurderstood there. I didn't mean that it was okay to insult or offend others. But to me, while this behavior exists on these boards, it's clearly practiced by a minority of people. The majority of posters of both sides of the pro-4E/anti-4E discussion seem pretty respectful. While people like CWM, Rass and Wotc Nightmare are more exalted on their opinion, I never saw any of them directly insulting anyone. CWM is a gentle, respectful guy with lots of good opinions, but I have the impression that he loses patience sometimes, and sometimes without necessity.
To me, it seems that shutting down the boards because of the behavior of a minority of people is strongly unfair to the rest.
Honestly, I don't really care if some people want to stick with the clunkier system of 3.5 Just look at the thread on Pathfinder Skills, those skills are a mess compared to the 4E list.
What bothers me is that there may be some people who might have an interest in 4E who look at all of the whining about it here on the Paizo forums and end up not checking it out for themselves.
And if Paizo continues to expend their resources and products on 3.5, then that's just less product I will purchase from them. I said time and time again that the anti-4E camp was just a vocal minority and the fact that the 4E set has been on Amazons best seller list for a while now has proven me right. I'm going to be signing up for Goodman Game's 4th Edition Dungeon Crawl Classics and as they are being released very soon. We are also playing Keep on the Shadowfell and will continue with the other WotC modules. If Paizo doesn't want to focus on it, that doesn't affect me.
Oh. That would make a good T-Shirt.This needs to be stickied:
The main rule here is (or ought to be): DON'T BE A DICK.
See Dick buy 4e.
See Dick hate 4e.
See Dick tell everyone who plays 4e that he's a immature jackass.
Don't be a Dick.
See Dick buy 4e.
See Dick love 4e.
See Dick tell everyone who doesn't like 4e that he's an irrational jackass.
Don't be a Dick.
Sorry, couldn't resist :)