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I would like to end my Adventure Path subscription after the shipping of Pathfinder Adventure Path #48: Shadows of Gallowspire (Carrion Crown 6 of 6).

Thanks!


1)Mutants and Masterminds 2e edition
2)Dark Heresy
3)Warhammer Fantasy 2nd edition
4)Star Wars SAGA
5)DnD 4edition


To Legendarius : Once you saved your custom monster, you need to close this monster and then right click on it in the list of monster.. You should see options to copy the stats block in rich text or jpg into your clipboard... you can then paste it into any text or illlustration edition tools you use (word, excel, photoshop, paint...) Enjoy!


Can someone can explain to me what's up with the skill DC?
I never realized until a few moment ago, consulting the last Update to the PH and DMG, that the DC by level have all changes... There is probably a reason but I can't find any...
This change hit me when I compared two level 2 Eberron module...
I've run Kyber's harvest last week with skill DC in the 12-17 range for a level 2 party... everything run just fine...
Reading Seeker of the Ashen Crown, all DC are so low that I can't figure how a group of PC could possibly not succed 95% of the time... For exemple, Encounter 3: Dragon's Maw, got a level 2 solo Trap with Athletics and Thievery checks ranging from 5-10.. A level 2 thief with Dex 18 and the Thievery Skills got a +10 skills bonus... He could just not miss any skills checks...
Am I supposed to increased all skills checks by +5? If not, why bother writing skills challenge that no one could possibly miss?
Passive Perception = 10 + skill bonus... and almost every Encounter Perception checks in the first quarter of the adventure are DC 5 or DC 8...! A character need a Wisdom score of 1 to miss that kind of checks...
So is there something I've missed? (I'm pretty sure I need to add +5, but I would like to know why I need to do that now)...

Thanks!


I've use James Jacob trick for a few adventures and it resolve a lot of problem we had: Encounters are resolve a lot quicker ( I throw at them a few encounters 1-2 level lower than their current level) and they usually keep their daily powers for the last and critics encounters ...
And I usually make sure to have some time constraint to complete the adventure... for exemple, if the captured citizens they are supposed to save are not liberated in time because of extended rest, you could be sure that they will be executed or transformed into Khyber's aberration.... and the heroes will have to live with the consequences of their innaction...


I would really like to see hight level 3 part story arcs like Greg A.Vaughan "Abyss" triology. So far, in most 6 parts pathfinder story arc there is alway one or two modules that I dislike and make all the rest of the modules almost unusable...
More intrigue/Investigation/horror mid-to-high level adventures (The Styes, Chimes at Midnight, Steel Shadows, Mellorn Hospitality, Tammerauts' Fate, the prince of red hand, etc)
Less dungeoncrawl.. more roleplaying opportunities...
Thanks!


Does the gnome of Zilargos are now related to the feywild?

Thanks!


Beside the fact that Gnoll are now more bestial and less inclined to be receptive to diplomacy and that they decided to show a nice colored illustration of three Gnolls instead of telling you that they are bestial humanoid with hyena head (pretty obvious), as a DM does the 1st edition description inspire you more to create your own adventure...? do you see anything to spark your imagination in the 1st edition that not there in the 4e?
I'm not attacking 1st edition or your gaming preference... and you really don't need to take a sarcastic tone... I just want to understand what you see that I don't...
As a DM, I found the 4e a little bit more inspiring than the 1e description (and I'm not trying to convince anyone that either description are really fluf intensive.. If I want Fluf, I just have to play another game and open the Warhammer Old World Bestiary to read some awe inspiring monster description )...


I just want to show you another perspective regarding the sterile and technical manual that Pax refer previously.
Here we have two typical monster description coming from OSRIC (wich I remember is very similar to the 1st edition MM and a pretty good exemple of Gygaxian Naturalism) and the other came from the MM that should not be name here....

Gnolls live and travel in small bands. They sometimes form loose alliances with other gnolls. They are very adaptive and can be found in most c l ime s . There are rumours of a gnoll overlord, though if he exists his power and reach are limited. Gnoll raiding parties will be led by a leader with 16 HP. He f ghts as a 3 HD monster. Gnoll bands are lead by a chieftain (AC3, 22 HP, attacks as a 4 HD monster, and does 2d4+2 damage), and his 2d6 guards (AC4, 20 HP, attack as 3 HD monster, 2d4+1 damage). Gnolls have been known to ally with orcs, hobgoblins, bugbears, and even trolls. Gnolls have infravision (60 ft). They speak troll, their own barked tongue, chaotic evil, and occasionally orcish and hobgoblin. Description: Gnolls are large hyena-faced creatures. They are covered in a grey fur with a dark muzzle and yellow mane. They have dark eyes, and long nails. Their armour is usually a mismatch of types taken from their victims. They have a rough life, and their average lifespan is only 35 years. Treasure: Individual 2d6 ep, 2d4 gp; Lair 1d8x1,000 cp (60%), 1d6x1,000 sp (50%), 1d8x1,000 ep (35%), 1d6x1,000 gp (50%), 5d4 gems (30%), 1d6 jewellery (25%), 2d4 potions (40%)

GNOLLS ARE FERAL, DEMON-WORSHIPING MARAUDERS that kill, pillage, and destroy. They attack communities along the borderlands without warning and slaughter without mercy, all in the name of the demon lord Yeenoghu.
Gnoll Lore A character knows the following information with a successful Nature check.
DC 15: Gnolls are nomadic and rarely stay in one place for long. When gnolls attack and pillage a settlement, they leave nothing behind except razed buildings and gnawed corpses. Gnolls often decorate their armor and encampments with the bones of their victims. Impatient and unskilled artisans, they wear patchwork armor and wield weapons stolen from their victims.
DC 20: Gnolls don’t bargain or parley, and they can’t be bribed or reasoned with. Gnolls are often encountered with hyenas, which they keep as pets and hunting animals. They also work with demons.
DC 25: Gnolls detest physical labor and often use slaves to perform menial chores. The life of a slave in a gnoll camp is brutal and short. That said, slaves who show strength and savagery might be indoctrinated into the gnoll vanguard. Such creatures are usually broken in mind and spirit, having become as cruel and ruthless as their captors.
DC 30: As the mortal instruments of the demon lord Yeenoghu, who is called the Beast of Butchery and Ruler of Ruin, gnolls constantly perform atrocities. When not scouring the land in Yeenoghu’s name, gnolls fight among themselves and participate in rituals that involve acts of depravity and self-mutilation.
Encounter Groups: Gnolls raid and war in rapacious packs, their numbers supplemented by demons (especially evistros and barlguras), raving slaves, and beasts driven to madness and cruelty. Powerful humanoids sometimes manage to take gnolls as slaves or even to raise gnoll pups as servants. Such gnolls serve their masters as fierce warriors. Level 4 Encounter (XP 950) ; 1 gnoll huntmaster (level 5 artillery) ; 6 hyenas (level 2 skirmisher) Level 6 Encounter (XP 1,250) ; 3 gnoll marauders (level 6 brute) ; 2 evistro demons (level 6 brute) Level 7 Encounter (XP 1,550) ; 1 gnoll demonic scourge (level 8 brute) ; 2 gnoll claw fighters (level 6 skirmisher) ; 2 gnoll huntmasters (level 5 artillery) ; 1 cacklefiend hyena (level 7 brute)

Here a little game: Identify the 1st and 4 edition description. And tell wich one seem sterile and like a technical manual with all the ramdom dice rolls and percentile. And wich one seem evocative and full of roleplaying opportunities...?
And if you wonder what langages speak the 4e Gnolls and what type of vision they have, they are in the stats block: Low-light vision, Abyssal, Common.

So, i'm still looking for the wonder of 1st edition ecology compare to the sterile 4e ...

Thanks.


Why not simply release the maps for free in higher resolution (300 DPI) in a download section. WoC have begin to do this (one Map for the player and one map for the DM) and it's pretty easy to use tools to print them (posterazor) or use them on screen or with a projector with something like maptools.


Dark Mistress wrote:
I strong disagree with that. I mean if I want to run a DnD game that is low magic conan like game. Then i don't want to allow one of my players to play a fire breathing dragonman shaman. It doesn't fit the game.

Well, your exemple seem pretty bad because if you want to run a Conan type of game with any DnD edition you will pretty much need to tell your players that you don't allow almost half the basic core rulebook in your game (no elf, no dwarf, no hafling, no paladin, no magic for ranger, etc... you will have to bane a lot of spells and a lot of core monster won't even exist in your campaign... there is a few reasons that Mongoose is oublishing a d20 conan rpg)...

So what's the problem of having more core rules? Rules that have been tested and approved by the designer of the core rules? Every DM will have to choose the rules (or options) he want to include or not in is own campaign if he wish to keep the flavor of some specific world or universe...
A low magic setting imply that the DM have made choice to reduce the amount of options available to the players...
Most published core campaign world (for 3.5ed or 4e) have try to be all inclusive... but this is not necessaerly true to your own campaign... So all the powers is and have always been in the hand of the DM...


I was not calling out your conversion Scott (and by the way you've done a colossal job). But we obviously don't agree on what a encouter level 1 represent in 3.5E VS a standard encounter in 4E.
A goblin armed with a knife (dealing 1d3 dmg) could possibily drop to uncounscious a level 1 Wizard but will not live more than one round after the three other character beat the crap out of him. In 3.5 this encounter end in less than 5 minutes. I just don't see why I should convert this encouter into a 1 hour battle (standard encounter) in 4E... it serve no purpose in the story and even if this encounter could be fun and challenging in itself by upgrading it to a standard encounter I prefer to keep those good moment with major and significative encounters. One hour to kill the equivalent of a goblin in 3.5 is just not the kind of fun we enjoy. And this is exactly were we find that 4e become more a boardgame than a roleplaying game.. we don't want our gaming night to become a succession of 1 hour battle encounters (at least not in lower level adventure). We prefer to skip a few of those long encounter to advanced the storyline... To each is own but we have a blast so far in keeping the spirit of 3.5 adventures...


For our group, I guess that 1 hour to 1.5 hour is fine for a high level combat... but taking more than 1 hour to kill a bunch a kobolds (Keep on the Shadowfell) where it could have taken 15 minutes in 3.5 is way too long to our taste...
I don't mind a final combat with the master villain and is minions that could take that long, but for trivial encounters it's just a pain... So beside reducing the number of hit points by one level for each creature, i've decided to recuded the level of opposition for minor encounters... Not every encounter need to be 'standard' challenge... I prefer to have the time to complete two trivial encounter instead of one standard that took so much time that we lost interest in it's resolution and that often force the characters to spend daily powers only to survive...
For exemple the goblin in Monster in the Closest (Pathfinder Burnt Offerings) was not meant to be a challenge for a party of 4 3.5e characters... A single goblin armed with a knife could possiblity not be anything but anoying to a group of armed character... there is no need to make this encounter a challenging one and make this goblin Elite and add 3 other level 1 goblins warrior to make this a "Standard" encounter... this was simply a roleplaying opportunity that have a specific role in the storyline...
I prefer to take less time on what should be trivial encounters to make sure that my players are ready for the big final encounter. Since we applied those few change, our enjoyment of the game have really increased. Does it make the encounter a little bit easier.. probably... does it make me and my players happier... certainly! (And most of the time I increased the challenge of the final battle to compensate the lost of XP for the less challenging other encounters)


My group and I have the same problem and I decided to simply reduce the hit point of monster by one level (depending of the role). Anyway the hp calculation for monster add one lever over the PC and I'm not sure I understand the reason behind this increase (a goblin Brute 1 have more hit points than a level 1 human fighter)...
The combat end a little bit quicker and this is more significative with Elite and Solo (monsters lose 2x level or 5x level in hit points)... At lower level, this help a lot to make the combat quicker without really changing anything to the challenge or the danger the character could face... On average, we can complete one more encounter every game session... wich is a good thing... and the HP of monster are now more equivalent to those of the character of equivalent level...


I can assure you of one thing: WoC can track the number of illegetimate download pretty easily. At least from those who don't know how to protect themselve when using P2P.
There is a lot of company that specialized in tracking illegal download... WoC could have hired one of them. Those company can tell you the filename, the date, the hour and more importantly the IP adress of the culprit... wich can be track down to the internet provider up to the name of the culprit... What they do with this information is another matter...


As a former Champions GM, if you like the D20 rules, I assure you that Mutants and Masterminds with the Ultimate Power sourcebook is the way to go...
Mutants and Masterminds is a better system if you want different level of powers for your campaign... You could play street level or cosmic level heroes pretty easily and you won`t need to add 20d6 every time you hit the villains or keep track of every Endurance points you spent every second you act...! :-)


Thanks alot everyone. It`s not that way that we play in 3.5, but it will make it a lot simpler in 4.0. We will try that tomorrow night.


I'm a little bit confuse about the following: Do you have to declare the full effect of your powers to the target?

For exemple, our fighter challenge the ogre chieftain. Does the Ogre known that he`s mark and that he has a -2 penalty to attack roll and risk interrupted attack if he don`t try to attack the fighter?

Another exemple: Our group is attacked by a mercenary swordmage and his allies. The swordmage use Ageis of Assault again our dwarf barbarian. Does the dwarf barbarian known the consequence of hitting one of the swordmage allies instead of him (before it`s too late and the swordmage teleport behind him to strike him)?

Our human warlord use Viper`s strike against a Kobold Dragonshield... Does the Kobold know that it will provoke an opportunity attack if he use is shifty power?

Our eladrin wizard, want to cast Scorching Burst at a group of goblins... Obviously this attack will be a lot more potent against minions. Does the DM tell us wich one are minions (or a nature knowledge roll is require to determine the type of adversary)?

My take on this is that players need to declare the full effect of their powers and the DM will have to try not to take advantage of this knowledge against the players.
On the other side, the DM should keep secret the effect and let the players try some knowledge rolls to idenfify the possible effect or the source ... but monster knowledge rolls are fine for 'monster' but how do you known that the mercenary is a swordmage? Does a nature roll of 20 can reveal is name, type ,keywords and powers? I don`t think so... Is it common knowledge then? For exemple, if you are cursed by a warlock, do you known by default that you will loose more hit point if he it you? How do you known that you have been cursed by a Warlock since there is not apparent effect?

Thanks!


Ubermench wrote:
Are serious, there isn't any way I’m paying $120 on game stuff a year from any company.

You are a Pathfinder Chronicles Subscribe and a Pathfinder Companion Subscriber and you don`t want to pay $120 on game stuff a year from any company? Really?

Only for your Pathfinder Chronicles Subscribtion, assuming you start with Pathfinder Chronicles: Campaign Setting up to april products release 2009, you will pay 172.92$ (excluding any shipping cost). Of course this is not PDF or e-products.

I don`t mind people complaining about the quality of the DDI, but seriously you should at lest be a little honest and take the time to compare what you are paying right now for Paizo products...

I'm actually paying 8.99$ (for module) or 13.99$ (adventure path) every month for 1 PDF (because the shipping cost is simply ridiculous) or 22.98$ for 2 PDF when they release both in the same month...

So 14.99 is too much for the Full DDI??? For 2 complete e-magazines (including 3 adventures), a rules compendium and E-tools for character generation and map making....? If you are not playing or interested in 4e, of course it`s too much... but if you are.... it`s simply a matter of if you like the product or not.. but the price is more than fair...


Well, I have the choice of paying 9$ for a Pathfinde module pdf that I will have to update to 4e rules or 8$ for 3 4e edition adventures and a lot of dragons articles... I think the choice is pretty easy to make and I really can't understand how someone could find this price unreasonable...
I agree that the adventures are not as good as some of the best of pathfinder module, but unfortunely not every pathfinder module is a masterpiece...


EatherOfTheDead wrote:


I fail to understand how gaming groups can take so long with this

Well... most gaming group I know play one session every two weeks... (most people got jobs, kids and do other activities than RPG)... So 30 sessions is 60 weeks of real times.. that`s more than an year!


Rodney Thompson wrote:

It may be too big a topic for just this thread, but when you think of adventures from the past that you'd like to see something that good in 4E, what do you think of?

I agree completly with you that most Paizo module are dungeoncrawl and as a player of Warhammer Fantasy RPG and a lot of others RPG I simply find hard to understand why dungeoncrawl is still the standard for every edition of DnD... After 20-30 rooms of dungeon crawl I usually just stop reading and there is almost no chance I will run the module... Like a previous poster has said, I suppose it`s because most DnD player prefer dungeoncrawl.. And if it`s not the case, it`s about time that we tell it to adventure publishers. Paizo adventures are, most of the time, interesting for dungeoncrawl...

A an example, what I like from the first pathfinder advenure path:

Part 1-2-3 of Burnt Offering.. Part 2: Local Heroes is one of the few DnD module that look like a warhammer adventure with a lot of rpg opportunities.. The last part of the adventure is just a dungeoncrawl and it`s pretty borring.

The Skinsaw Murders - Just perfect

After that, The hook mountain massacre is fine (but not great), the first part of Fortress of the Stone Giants is great but after that (the rest of this module and Sins of Saviors and Spires of Xin-Shalast) are just dungeon crawl and completly ruins the path for me... And I serously don't find the backgound story of the path interesting (It`s stange that wrath and destruction instead of greed motivate the runelord of Greed in this path...ah well..)

Here my list of Dungeon adventures I want to run in 4e (some in Eberron obviously):
Iriandel (a great high fantasy story with a unicorn and a big battle at the end)
Murder in Oakbridge (intrigue)
Chimes At Midnight (intrigue)
Cradle of Madness (Typical of Warhammer - A cult and a mad god)
Mellorn Hospitality (I love Elf, betrayal and Night Hag)
Tammeraut’s Fate (Great horror movie theme)
The Hall of Harsh Reflections (Intrigue - I love Mind Flayer)
Steel Shadows (Intrigue)
The Elfwhisper (I love Elf and great Tolkiensque story)
The Champion Belt (Gladiator Arena and Intrigue)
Test of the Smoking Eye (Wow)
Touch of the Abyss
Shadows of the Abyss
Wrath of the Abyss
(The best DnD trilogy so far.. I prefer a few linked adventures to a very long adventure path where there is a hign probability that I will hate some modules and just don`t use the path at all.

The only 4e adventure I find interesting so far and that I intend to run is The Last Breaths of Ashenport (because I'm a great fan of Call of Cthulhu rpg)

The receipies for great adventure are not hard to find.. Just do something similar to what you are doing with the Dawn of Defiance adventure path (encounter base instead of dungeoncrawl, rpg opportunities, puzzle solving, moral dilema, intrigue, suspense, betrayal, a great recurring vilain and little bit of lovecraftian references...

Thanks for asking Rodney!


Regarding the Dragonmarks, I guess they could pretty much work like the spellscar from 4e Edition Forgotten Realm: As multi-class Feats that gave specific powers up to level 10. After that you can take a Paragon path similar to the dragonmark related prestige class of the 3e edition...


You should try Amazon. Zero shipping cost if you order enough products at the same time.


jgbrowning wrote:
Let's see, we're still fine-tuning on some aspects of the work, but it looks like we've got Earth gnomes, Shire halflings, and orc-blooded for races and Martial Artist, Nature Priest, Savage Warrior, Troubadour, and Spellbinder for classes.

Everything we need to do a complete 4E conversion of Golarion (or any other classic DnD campaign or adventure! Thanks :-)


Crosswiremind wrote:
I think 4e is the first edition to say - D&D is a gamist rules system and darn proud of it!

I totally agree with you... I always see DnD as pure gamist RPG... Is there any other RPG system that reward XP for killing monster? Is there other RPG build around the idea of a dungeoncrawl (kill monsters, get XP to level and take the treasure)? How could you explain that a level 10 fighter with 90 hp could jump from a 100 feet without having any fear of dying or even be wounded? I'm very amuse when people try to argue that 3e is more 'realistict or Simulationist' than 4E... Let`s face it, there is nothing realistic about any edition of DnD... 4E simply embrace this concept completly... and there is nothing wrong with that... I play DnD to fight Runelords, Dracolichs, Beholders, a army of Fire giants, to travel to a demonic plane and fight Demogorgon and his army, to kills 10 level 18 villains inside a dungeon under a volcano in irruption or why not, kill a god who try to unleash the age of worm on greyhawk... And all of this from level 1 to 20 (from zero to half-god) in less than a few weeks of campaign time... If simulationist mean to you the use of Craft and Profession Skills, I guess you forget a lot of gamist elements from you game to support this idea...

When I want to play a 'simulationist' RPG, I play Call of Cthulhu or Warhammer or Dark Heresy. There is some narrative or cinematic elements in those two game if you consider the use of Fate Points but nothing compare to the over the top of DnD: In Warhammer, your experience character could die from fighting a bunch of goblins as a lot of ennemies vs a single hero have real impact on a fight - one critical and splash! you just lose you left arm and you bleed to death... That`s not something that could ever happen in DnD...


Pres Man wrote:
Let's not confuse people who play with people who buy. Not always the same thing.

Well, since it`s a free download, I suppose than anyone interested to Play Pathfinder have download it and will dowload the Beta in a few weeks... But you are right.. From the 1.5 millions player, probably only 25% of them buy book on a regular basis (the DM and a few players).. so the overall market is probably more 375,000 buyers...

Base on the Pathfinder download I could guess that 50% of them will actually buy the final release (12,500)... that`s represent 25% of the 3.5 overall market (50,000 buyers)... we still have 325,000 potential 4E buyers for the Advanced player`s guide...
But all of this is pure speculation of my part (but I guess it`s a fair representation of the DnD market)... and we won`t ever known how many Advanced player`s guide XRP will be able to sale... :-)


Insert Neat Username Here wrote:
So you're saying that 14/15 people converted? That's not the impression I'm getting. It's more like a 50-50 split, from what I've seen.

I could be wrong, but as the true steward of the DnD3.5 Legacy (as many fan seem to believe) I supposed that Paizo have at least 25% of the DnD 3.5 market... As 25,000 peoples have download the Free Pathfinder RPG I extrapolate that 100,000 peoples play 3.5E.. It`s a fair guess... If the 50-50 split impression that you get is true, that would mean that Paizo only have 3% of the 3.5E total market and be really insignifiant... your guess...


CPEvilref wrote:
If they sold 50,000 copies in a few months it would be the biggest non-wotc seller of the year.

I`m well aware of that, but I figure that if Paizo is able to have 25,000 free download of the Pathfinder Beta, that should represent about 25% of the 3.5E actual market... If I remember correctly the last RPG demograpghic survey indicated that 1.5 millions peoples play DnD worlwide monthly... so I figure out that`s left 1.4 millions peoples playing 4E today... if about only 5% of those players buy a book with all the missing core class of 3.5E (and I guess a lot more people would want those rules as they are the deal breaker for many players), we could obtain a little bit more than 50,000 sold copies of the advanced player`s guide... Even if I`m wrong.. 10,000 copies at 20$ each should be more than enough for a small publisher like XRP...


I guess you are right Matthew... or they could simply add (or copy-paste from the advanced Player`s guide) quickly the new class in the compendium or in Dragon Magazine (like they did for the Artificer)...


My understanding (and I could be wrong) is that WotC can stop XRP from publishing the advanced Player`s guide only once they release the Player Handbook II... not before since they didn`t not, yet, publish those races and classes in any supplement... So even if WotC decide to publish a bard and a druid in the player Handbook II next year, XRP will have the chance to sell a lot of advanced player`s guide before that hapen... If they can sale 50000 copy in the next few months, do they really need to care that WoTc revoke their right to publish it after that?


Can someone explain to me why they should change the name of their races and class or be worry about WotC asking them to stop publishing this guide? They will almost have half a year to sell this player`s guide before WoTc publish the Player Handbook II... This is a lot of time to sell a lot of copy of something a lot of DnD 4E players clearly want... I`m not in the publishing business, but my understanding is that 80% of your sell are done in the few weeks or months after the release date...


Elorebaen wrote:
3b) Ensure that Paizo can continue to provide us the quality products they are known for.

I'm not sure I understand why buying from Amazon with free shipping as anything to do with providing less money in the pockets of Paizo...

Are you implying that Paizo make money on the shipping and handling cost? If it's not the case, the 25% save from Pre-Order on Amazon is probably the same as the one you could get from a Paizo subscription... The only difference is I don't need to pay 26$ of shipping fees for a 90$ purchase...


IconoclasticScream wrote:

When I do "Wait to ship together" for those three items the combined shipping is a little less than nine dollars. Priority USPS is $14.60, and two-day UPS jumps up to $37.31.

Where do you live?

I live In Quebec, Canada, near Montreal...

And concerning Amazon shipping delay, I'm quite satisfy ... My last two purchase (DnD4 core rules book and Dark heresy inquisitor handbook) took less than 3 days after the release dates to be delivered to my home (even with free shipping)... I can hardly complain if I compare it to the 2-3 weeks shipping delay of Paizo...
But I guess I will still purchase as usual the pathfinder path and modules in PDF format because even if I don't mind printing adventures on my laserjet printer, a 400 pages rulebook and a campaign setting is out of question (not cost effective and not practical)...


You are right about the saving... I stop before the checkout when I see the amount of money for shipping and handling...

Take a look at my order:
Pathfinder #13—Second Darkness Chapter 1: "Shadow in the Sky" $19.99
Pathfinder Chronicles: Campaign Setting (OGL) Hardcover $49.99
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game (OGL) Beta Release Print Edition $ 24.99

Subtotal (3 Items) $94.97
Shipping & Handling $36.18
Shipping & Handling Discount - $5.55
Order Total $125.60

Wait to ship these items together (less expensive)
Subtotal (3 Items) $94.97
Shipping & Handling $26.81
Order Total $121.78

But overall, I don't save much if I compare it to the price I just pay with Amazon (62.14$)... It's half the amount!
I was a PDF exclusive buyer until today (to save shipping cost)... Now I have another option more cost effective...


Yes.. but for unknown reason, they charge me the 12$ for each book when I try to order them.. This is why I decide to pre-order on Amazon... And on Amazon, you have about 25% reduce cost for pre-order books...
I'm not trying to sell Amazon to anyone here, but if people need others option, it's a pretty good one...


IconoclasticScream wrote:
I don't know about anyone else, although I could guess, but I do it to support Paizo.

Since Paizo release their products on Amazon, I guess I support Paizo As much as you do... but It just cost me less $ to do so...

And 12$ shipping cost per book is for Canadian non-subscriber... and it's pretty excessive...


I'm glad I'm not a subscriber because with the cost of Paizo shipping and handling, the price are really too high!

For exemple, I just pre-order on Amazon the following for 62.14$CAD (with Free shipping) instead of 125.60$CAD with Paizo:
Pathfinder #13—Second Darkness Chapter 1: "Shadow in the Sky" (OGL)
Pathfinder Chronicles: Campaign Setting (OGL) Hardcover
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game (OGL) Beta Release Print Edition

I known that I won't have the free PDF... But twice the price for the same products is a little bit excessive... I love Paizo stuff, but I just can't understand why someone could want to pay 12$ of shipping and handling for each rpg book he want to order...


I guess one of the big problem with Star Trek RPG is the defined role of each character in the starship and it's pretty hard to involve everyone in each typical game session if you want to be true to star trek episode. For instance, a lot of star trek adventure involve away team... If one of your character want to play a Transporter Ops, Helmsman or Navigator you will find it pretty hard to explain why this character should go on each away team mission...
Also, a lot of star trek adventures main plot involve technological, scientific or medical problem to resolve... It's a lot of fun to watch a Tv episode where Jordi La Forge is working on a warpdrive anomaly ... but in a RPG session if only one or two character can be involve in the story, it's boring for the other players. And if the main plot involve something else, the character that is require to repair the Warp Drive or find a cure for a disease do nothing else than extended skills tests during most of the game session...
And last but not the least... All the player need to known (and like) the star trek universe to really enjoy it... And it's very hard to find such a group of players.
I've try Fasa, Prime Directive, Last Unicorn Game and Decipher Game star trek rpg and none ever goes for more than one or two game session before the group decided to play something else...
I will try to adapt some of my Last Unicorn Star Trek adventures for my Dark Heresy game sessions...


Ho! So you are comparing NPC classes with adventurers classes? Are they not suppose to represent the rest of the people in the world around the PC's who don't train to go on adventures and explore dungeons? I really didn't know that some people play DnD 3.5 to simulated game session of farming or fishing... It's strange... whenever I propose to my player to choose between heroes like Legolas, Aragorn or Sam... they always choose Legolas and Aragorn... I really don't know why... Maybe it's because they are heroics and it's the purpose of the game?


Tatterdemalion wrote:

A cut above, yes. But 4e has gone well beyond that. You couldn't create a Chapter 1 Sam Gamgee with the current rules.

And how exactly do you propose to create this character with a heroic class in 3.5E or Pathfinder RPG? Does he look like a Fighter or a rogue level 1 to you?


Well, I guess I was not too clear in my preceding post:

I said that 3 adventures modules now cost me around 45$ CAD (13$ each + shipping cost) when it use to cost me 10$ for about the same thing with the Dungeon magazine.

And for those who didn't understand, I'm not bashing Nicolas Logue... to the contrary... Logue is one of the best author of module and articles.. What I was trying to say is how can someone complain about the quality of WoC dragons articles when half of them have been written by him since June 6? I can get the same author and quality for only 10$ now...

EDIT: Oups... I guess Jeremy Mac Donald was not thinking I was bashing Logue but rather enjoy the bashing session that happen after every Lodge publish adventure module on this board... Hope Nicolas is enjoying them too... :-)


Jeremy MacDonald wrote:
Its all about the quality. Paizo's is second to none.

Less than 2 years ago, I could have this same quality with the Dungeon Magazine with 3 adventures modules for less (9.99$ CAD)... At least most of the time one of the three adventure was interesting and usable in my campaign... Now I have to pay four time this amount (around 45$) for the same result... How do you explain this increase in cost? A nice rigid cover? Color interior? Gaz cost increase?

I don't argue that Paizo don't produce quality stuff, but does it really worth that much more money when compare to the WoC online magazines (where you can find some articles written by the same writer that write Pathfinder module)? Can anyone argue that 10$ is too much for what they have offer so far (since June 6)?


The PostMonster General wrote:
I believe the real question here is not whether good or not but whether they are good enough to pay money for when it is time for them to start chargong for it

Well, I have the choice between 2-3 adventures + 4-5 (6-10 pages) articles per month (some written by Nicolas Loge) + a full searchable compendium of rules + (eventualy) a character builder, all of this for 10$ per month Or I could buy 1 Paizo adventure module (in a system that I will have to convert to 4E) for 13.99$ (more with the shipping)... The choice is quit simple for most customers...


I'm sorry Chris, But I don't see any raison to apologize and I was not even a ittle bit snarky...

To the OP Eberron is that: wrote:
But if you look at the pictures through the books you can smell an Eberron spirit. Eberron was always controversial for the use of modern technology and a bit of sci-fi setting, nevertheless it found a place on the game comunity. Only look at the pictures of Eberron, I feel I am looking at a post apocaliptic world or something like Matrix, Mad Max or Waterworld

He just don't have a clue of what is Eberron (by comparing it to Mad Max or the Matrix)... I was just pointing out that 'The Spirit' of Eberron is the various elements I have enumerate in my previous post... And If he see any of this in the style and feel of the 4E.. well.. he's obviously mistaken because none of this elements that characterize Eberron are present in any pictures of the 4E...

The style of Wayne Reynolds as nothing to do with the Eberron feel... The elves that look like punks are not related to Eberron but more to the Pathfinder Rogue Iconic Merisiel or to the half naked Tatooed Sorceress Seoni... This his the style that help to sale RPG book today ... but Eberron have nothing to do with that as 4E don't show anything that look like or feel like Eberron...


You are probably not very familiar with Eberron because even if I flipped every pages of the Players handbook twice I have found absolutly nothing similar to Eberron... No Warforged, No Shifter, No Artificier, No Dragonmark heir, No Valenar Elves with their double scimitar, No hafling riding a dinosaur, No Elves from the Undying court, No Lyriandar Airship, No Lightining Rail, No Flying City, No Suspended towers, No Karnathi undead army, No Daelkyr, No Dolgauny, No Inspired... Seriously, I don't have a clue of what your are talking about.... And for your information Eberron is Pulp.. not post-apocalyptic...

I suppose you came at this conclusion because they include de Shifter and Warforge in the Monster Manual... Yeah.. you are right... It's probably too much for a standard fantasy setting... 4 pages out of 280 is too much Eberron! :-)

And regarding the Art, you have probably notice that the Pathfinder RPG use the same artist than the one who have done all the Eberron cover (Wayne Reynolds).... So I guess this make the Pathfinder RPG too much like Eberron also.... :-)


Mutants & Masterminds 2e is the best Super-Heroes RPG ever! I've try a lot of them (Vilains & Vigilantes, Marver SuperHeores, Marvel Saga, Marvel Universe, Champions, Champion the New Millenium, DC Heroes, DC Universe (D6), Gurps Super, Aberrant, Silver Age Sentinel) and nothing can beat the flexibility and the fun of playing M&M... and it's d20...! You already known how to play...
To play you will need the basic: Mutants and Mastermidns 2E and I highly recommand Ultimate Powers and Instant Superheroes (to create quickly a ton of heroes and villains base on tons of archetype).
The Freedom City Sourcebook is really nice as a Campaign setting...
And by buying this product you will promote the OGL... :-)
But take note that my opinion is somehow not totaly objective as I've done a few illustrations for 3PP M&M sourcebook... :-)


Christohper DeGraffenreid wrote:
I am not claiming to be superior in my opinions, just someone who is curious as to the motivation of 4e fans as to their choices in regards to abandoning 3.5e. If 3.5e was so bad, why didn't those who find 3.5e so broken check out True20, Runequest, Elric, Conan, etc. a year or two ago?

But a lot of us did indeed check out other RPG... I think a lot of 4E fan (it' my case) have lost interest in 3.5E a year or two ago and want to try the new edition to see if they change enough stuff to make it enjoyable and playable at all level...

I will give a chance to 4E and if it's fail, I will play something else (True20 Shadow of Cthulhu, Mutant & Masterminds, Conan, Starwars Saga, Dark Heresy, Warhammer Fantasy, WoD to name a few game that share an equal interest in my RPG library)... Most of us are not influence by a brand but by good RPG...


Christopher Degaffenreid wrote:
4e is about as different from 3.5 D&D as 3.5e was from 2e. The differences have been written about ad nauseum so will not be reiterated here. Due to the many differences between 4e and any edition that has come before, many have IMO justifiably asked "Is 4e D&D?" If D&D, as some have indicated, rather simplistically I might add, "If the game has dungeons and dragons in it and the whole point of the game is killing things and taking their stuff, then its D&D," then I would argue that MERP, True20, Conan, Runequest, Pathfinder, etc. are all D&D as well.

And I would argue that you are wrong: D&D is the only roleplaying game that reward experience point for killing things. The basic of D&D is kill the monsters, gain XP and take the magical sword +3 and the wand of fireball... It's completly unrealistic, don't provide any motivation to roleplaying your character, but it's really fun to level your character.

Serously, if I want to play a serious, grim and gritty fantasy, involving investigation and intense roleplaying I will choose Warhammer Fantasy RPG anytime... The adventures are story driven... Your reward is to survive and stop to cultist from releasing a abomination of chaos on the world...
In D&D, the adventures are created to level your characters (exactly like a video game)... In other RPG your won't ever see a 20 rooms dungeons added simply to make sure your character will level before the big boss encounter... but you see that all the time in D&D (and the pathfinder modules have there share of filler dungeons level that are absolutly not related to the main plot and are there simply to add a few encounter and a few XP)...
The thrill of D&D players is to gain XP to level and add a nice new ability, power or feat or to gain another magic item to help them kill more things... This is the spirit of D&D and what make it appart from other RPG...
At least, 4E give significant XP for encounters and story goals now...


Indeed, the Chaosium system is pretty old and outdated... But something new and interesting is coming for the fan of the d20 system:

Daivd Jarvis, author of the Blood Throne campaign setting for True20 will publish Shadow of Cthulhu in a few weeks:

http://realitydeviants.net/blog/category/shadows-of-cthulhu/.

The True20 system is a perfect fit for Cthulhu-type adventure with it's fear and sanity rules... and the possibility to create 'ordinary' heroes like an old librarian with absolutly no combat capability...

The release date is suppose to be the 15th of july...

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