If you could change one thing about Alpha 3, what would it be?
This thread was inspired by the awesome 'what you did right' thread, and aims to be a quick list for Jason and co. to look at and see what our core concerns about the Alpha are and what we hope will make the Beta.
Here are the rules:
Keep it civil - there is a lot of incendiary language popping up here and there on the boards. Not necessary - the wonderful people at Paizo are working hard to make products for us, by listening to us. Don't make me sing R.E.S.P.E.C.T at you! ;op
One change only - We'd all like to change more than one thing, no doubt. But in order to keep this thread usable, limit your feedback to the most important thing to you or your group. Too much noise drowns out the signal and this thread is a great chance to be heard.
Be brief - Don't post a full class re-working here, link to it by all means, but keep your posts brief and pointed. Again the signal/noise thingy.
Be realistic - Don't post something here that you know is never going to work, e.g. getting rid of BAB etc. Remember the goal of backwards compatibility.
Without further ado: !tfad's one change!
I'd like to see more fighting styles for the Ranger. There are way more archetypes than the two presented, at the very least we need a mounted style. I'd prefer to see a mounted style, a skirmish/ambush style and something else (2 handed?) for a nice round 5 options.
Peace,
tfad
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Rage Points
I love the idea of Rage powers, but hate the idea of a "poll" mechanic for a hack-n-slash type character. With the monk and paladin, I kinda understand. With the Barbarian, it doesn't seem to fit.
Unfortunately, I have yet to see a response for how to convert this ability to work with the Barbarian's origianl "Rage X per day" mechanic.
I can live with everything else (even though I would have liked more skill consolidation), but Rage points are the one change I would make.
Only change so far is a minimum of 4 skills a level for the classes that have 2 now.
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I would make specialists better casters of their specialist spells.
This would be achieved by a specialist casting all spells from his specialism as if the specialist were one level higher (so a 5th level Evoker's fireball would have a range of 640 ft rather than 600 and do 6d6 damage rather than 5d6) and cast those spells with a +1DC to the save (stacking with Spell Focus), so the same fireball would have a DC of 14 rather than 13.
I'd also make the reverse apply for their opposition school, so an Illusionist with Evocation as the opposition school casting the fireball would only do 4d6 damage at a range of 560ft and a DC of 12.
This would give specialists a sense of primacy within their specialty that they currently lack a little, give the opposition schools a sense of meaning and give them something that distinguishes them even if they memorise an opposing school spell.
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Cover in combat.
Get back to the 3.0 standard. The grid/lines simplification is good for a sidenote for speeding up complex combat situations, but - as some users are already complaining - not everyone uses minis and a battlemat, and a more descriptive, narrative mechanic based on exposed ratio would be better.
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I'd love to see some spells, like raise dead for example, turned into rituals that involve more time to cast and erhaps a greater efford / cost to them then simpler spells. I think it would add greatly to the fluff of spellcasters.
(Not a very important change so see - I'm rather happy with PRPG :)keep going!)
Lay on Hands.
I like the idea of being able to use it many times a day and then use those "charges" to create other effects - great stuff! But by limiting the Paladin to only being able to heal their HD in hit points per level it really kills their ability to stay on the front lines for as long. At any given level, the average amount of damage you take from an enemy hit will be higher than your HD meaning that using LoH on yourself in combat is now at best playing a game of catch-up and at worst a liability.
I think this could be easily fixed by allowing the character to "burn" more than one LoH "charge" at a time - perhaps scaled by level?
I'd tone down the benefits for the "Universalist" wizard.
And/or I'd get rid of the new cover rules.
I go with Rage Points as well. They just stick out, if there were other classes with a points mechanic ti would work for me. The only thing I cant think of is to re-jigger them into minor and major "always on" rage powers, you then could just select an add on to your rage at certain levels. Kind of like Indomitable Will and Tireless rage could be considered as part of these rage powers. I dunno.
The one thing I would change is the specialist wizards. I would like to see prohibited schools returned, but only one school instead of two and make the spells unavailable to the specialist. In return, the specialist would gain the 1 additonal spell per spell level (of their choice in their specialized school).
Part of this would also be dropping the assigned SLA'a from levels 2-20 and replacing them with abilities that enchance the specialized schools. Something like..
Specialist ability - AC bonus per Alpha rules (I don't like it though)
1st - Acid Dart
2nd - Summoning spells last an additional 2 rounds
4th - Cast Monster Summoning spells as standard action - 3/day
6th - Summoned creatures gain +1 HD
8th - Dimensional Steps (because it is a cool ability :) )
10th - Can summon 1 additional creature with the Summon Monster spell or treat the spell as maximized when summoning creatures from a lower-level list - 2/day
12th - Summoning spells with a duration of 1/round per level are now 1 minute/level (+2 minutes for the 2nd level ability)
14th - Summoned creatures gain +2 HD (replaces 6th level ability)
16th - Can attempt to Banish (as Banishment spell) all summoned creatures within a 30' radius - 1/day
18th - Summoned creatures can bypass spells that would normally block them such as Protection from Evil or Magic Circle against Evil
20th - Summoning Master (as Alpha document)
Otherwise, as an example, I would rather jump out of the Conjurer class and into the Malconvoker, without a second thought. The current abilities that the Conjurer gets just isn't enough to keep me in the core class for 20 levels, and just about every other specialist wizard is the same IMO.
Only change so far is a minimum of 4 skills a level for the classes that have 2 now.
I second that.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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This is a very helpful thread, folks. Please keep the requests coming.
I have seen at least a cover er, couple of these suggestions that I am pretty sure will be changing in the Beta, and I am certain Jason is looking over this thread to consider additional changes.
Thanks again, everyone, for helping out with this open playtest. You guys are the greatest!
My personal pet peeve (that nobody else seems to care about):
Seriously, if I could taste viruses and bacteria, I could have avoided getting mononucleosis. I wouldn't have avoided it, but I could have.
:)
I would like to see supporting feats for the new abilities, giving extra rage points, extra lay on hands, etc.
Please keep lay on hands healing as-is. I have had too many BBEG undead 'boss' characters torched by a high level paladin hitting him with a lay on hands.
I would like to see some updated char sheets. Please make spellcasting a separate page, and a separate page for gear/magic items.( some room for items needing descriptions, a slot list maybe with some lines to a stick figure, and space for wands/scrolls/potions with room for listing CL and quantity/charges) Skills on the char sheet: One entry for perform, craft, profession, with the extra as blank lines on the bottom. Most char using these need several but not several entries for each. Keep all the knowledge skills as main entries on the list. optional-(separate entries for the various perception checks) A bigger box behind the saves for situational modifiers.
Update some of the abilities with clearer wording. The new monk's belt is a good example. In the past, many people allowed the belt to give char their wis as bonus to AC. The belt is very clear that it does not do that. Many of the abilities especially with the spellcasters could be worded more clearly to 'dispel confusion'.
I would like to see the ranger animal companion be changed to druid level-3 instead of half druid level. The companion is too likely to get killed at high level.
That's it for now. More later.
I would say that if I picked one thing to drop, its that a successful AoO negates a combat maneuver. Its already punitive enough to make the check DC 15 + the CMB, but adding the auto failure if hit does make it a really unattractive option in combat.
Its one of those areas where you don't need to reinforce this with multiple negatives. The fact that an AoO occurs and that its DC15 is enough.
Bring back Save or Dies
No change to DR, keep it like the SRD
Honestly, at the moment the main thing I would change about Pathfinder is:
Concentration and Spellcraft. Bring back Concentration as a skill, keyed to Constitution. It's integral to Psionics and Tome of Battle, and making it a skill keyed to CON makes it a skill that no one caster type has an advantage in. As a result, get rid of Spellcraft. Roll the abilities of Spellcraft (and Psicraft) into the associated knowledges: Identifying an arcane spell requires Knowledge (Arcana). Divine spell? Knowledge (Religion). Psionic power? Knowledge (Psionics). Maneuver? Knowledge (Tactics) or (Local) or something. It's still keyed off of the same attribute (INT) and it means that priest classes are more likely to identify the magic of the gods, arcanists are more likely to identify wizard magic, and psions are more likely to identify psionics. It makes a whole lot more sense.
I know that's how I'll be houseruling it, even if the Beta doesn't fix it.
(Bear in mind, I haven't had a lot of playtesting to speak of, so there may be something else that I hate more, but this is the main thing that bugs me as of right now.)
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I'd like to see more fighting styles for the Ranger. There are way more archetypes than the two presented, at the very least we need a mounted style. I'd prefer to see a mounted style, a skirmish/ambush style and something else (2 handed?) for a nice round 5 options.
I was going to say something similar in my change, but instead:
I would love for the Ranger to be able to select either favored terrain or favored enemy whenever they are given a favored choice. It is a simple customization option, and options are always good.
Concentration and Spellcraft. Bring back Concentration as a skill, keyed to Constitution. It's integral to Psionics and Tome of Battle, and making it a skill keyed to CON makes it a skill that no one caster type has an advantage in. As a result, get rid of Spellcraft. Roll the abilities of Spellcraft (and Psicraft) into the associated knowledges: Identifying an arcane spell requires Knowledge (Arcana). Divine spell? Knowledge (Religion). Psionic power? Knowledge (Psionics). Maneuver? Knowledge (Tactics) or (Local) or something. It's still keyed off of the same attribute (INT) and it means that priest classes are more likely to identify the magic of the gods, arcanists are more likely to identify wizard magic, and psions are more likely to identify psionics. It makes a whole lot more sense.
I'd like to add my agreement to this. Concentration has too many expanded (non-spellcasting) uses in 3.x sourcebooks to roll it into Spellcraft. Instead roll the uses of spellcraft into the associated knowledge skills, as suggested above.
Only change so far is a minimum of 4 skills a level for the classes that have 2 now.
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Get rid of ALL percentages in the game, start with concealment.
Next, cover needs to be simplified. Make cover a representation of how much of a character's BODY is behind a wall, rock, etc.
Qualify the cover bonus in respect to the character. If you only gain Total cover from one of three position (Prone, Kneel, Stand) you get the following bonus when standing behind that cover.
Prone +2 Cover Bonus
Kneel +3 Cover Bonus
Stand +4 Cover Bonus
Total Cover remains a state whether there is no line of sight, thus you can't be attacked and can't attack.
So say there's a rock. Character "Takes Cover" behind a rock. He's using the rock to cover his body. Taking cover means he wants the +3 Bonus and wants to attack someone. Simple right?
Alternatively, a character can "Take Total Cover" behind a rock. He kneels behind the rock, gains Total Cover. This means he can't attack or be attacked until line of sight is regained.
I would say that if I picked one thing to drop, its that a successful AoO negates a combat maneuver. Its already punitive enough to make the check DC 15 + the CMB, but adding the auto failure if hit does make it a really unattractive option in combat.
Its one of those areas where you don't need to reinforce this with multiple negatives. The fact that an AoO occurs and that its DC15 is enough.
Sorry, complaining about the wrong version here . . . I still don't think that the damage done should be added to the DC of the CM roll though, as the AoO is punishment enough for attempting the maneuver without the proper feat.
Sorry for the crossed wires ;)
Get rid of/change:
Different costs for crafting magic items based on class.
Make minimum skill points 4 instead of 2.
Cover to be +2 AC per line blocked (or per 25% cover descriptively), that way it's easy to remember.
Universalist powers are way too good, adjust please.
But my #1 would be:
Make save or die spells do damage and save for half. If you miss the first save you save against next round or die. Still deadly, but two chances instead of 1.
More known spells for the sorcerer because they are spontaneous spellcasters. Preferably at least ten more known spells at L18 (one of each level gained at leveling or at L2 (Bonus known cantrip), L4 (Bonus knonw first level spell), L6.......) if backwards compatibility that great of an issue. Mechanically something as simple as a Sorcerous Spell Mastery feat based on Charisma would do the trick.
Only change so far is a minimum of 4 skills a level for the classes that have 2 now.
Same here.
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Honestly, at the moment the main thing I would change about Pathfinder is:
Concentration and Spellcraft. Bring back Concentration as a skill, keyed to Constitution. It's integral to Psionics and Tome of Battle, and making it a skill keyed to CON makes it a skill that no one caster type has an advantage in. As a result, get rid of Spellcraft. Roll the abilities of Spellcraft (and Psicraft) into the associated knowledges: Identifying an arcane spell requires Knowledge (Arcana). Divine spell? Knowledge (Religion). Psionic power? Knowledge (Psionics). Maneuver? Knowledge (Tactics) or (Local) or something. It's still keyed off of the same attribute (INT) and it means that priest classes are more likely to identify the magic of the gods, arcanists are more likely to identify wizard magic, and psions are more likely to identify psionics. It makes a whole lot more sense.
This is much more sensible. I used Concentration for many things beyond the rules-as-written, such as maintaining one's balance in a slowly spinning tunnel, and picking a lock while half submerged in sewage, basically anything that require maintaining one's focus in physically challenging situations, and was really surprised to see it rolled into Spellcraft, whereas I would have thought it made more sense to roll Spellcraft into the Knowledge skills. I really like the idea of using Knowledge (Religion) as Spellcraft for Divine magic, and knowledge (Arcana) as Spellcraft for Arcane magic
This also has the advantage of making Knowledge (Religion) far more relevant to the game. As it stands, religious training seems to mostly consists of studying the undead and evil cults, as it's used for recognizing undead, evil statues and bad guy's holy symbols. It'd be nice if Knowledge (Religion) and Knowledge (Arcane) had similar weight.
This is a very helpful thread, folks. Please keep the requests coming.
w00t! I did something right! ;o) I was seriously surprised no one else had started a similar thread.
Thanks again, everyone, for helping out with this open playtest. You guys are the greatest!
We really shouldn't get into this, it'll go something like this:
"You guys are the best!"
"No, you guys are the best!"
"Aw! Come on, you guys are the best! We're only here 'cos you guys keep buying our stuff!"
"We only buy it 'cos you guys are the best!"
And so on.... ;OD
tfad
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Domain & School abilities as spells not SLA. Or SLA with Verbal & Somatic componets.
Something as the bonus known spells from the sorcerer is a good idea too. May be as: Evoker Lv2: "You gain a extra slot spell per 2 caster levels you possess. That slots only can used to cast Magic Missile"
Cleric & wizards should cast spells
Cheers!
I'd like to see the monk have an improved BAB. Unfortunately, I know that might hurt backwards compatability.
Better SLA DCs
I would change it so that the DCs for Wizard specialty school and Cleric domain SLAs are based upon Int and Wis respectively. I know they are trying to use mroe ability scores, but these abilities are the staples of their arts, so they should definitely be just as strong as their counterparts.
Allow paladins with chaotic and neutral good alignments. The class as it has always been written has powers to fight evil yet none to fight chaos. I always believed it worked best as a champion against evil who can follow any good religion.
Half-Orcs with Druid, rather than Cleric, as a Favored Class option.
Rage points are a cool idea. But I don't think they suit the Barbarian class.
The Barbarian should be the least mechanically "fussy" class of them all. Barbarian should be the intro class for newcomers, the class that it's easy to play after a couple drinks. They should be the "hulk smash!" class.
Points are a cool mechanic, but I'd think other classes would benefit more from the "offense" points approach.
No more fixed class ability. Every (or most of them) class abilities should be choosen from a list (with level or other restriction if needed) like the rogue.
The same should be true to the rogue sneak attack... I want, for exemple, to be able to choose Evasion instead of a +1d6 to sneak attack if I want to build a agile rogue instead of a killer.
Has anyone ever kicked around the idea of giving starting characters bonus feats based on intelligence, say 1 bonus feat per each +2 if intelligence modifier?
Allow the "bonus skills" in consideration of differents stats, not only the Int. :
- a Str. bonus of x gives x (x/2 ?) Str. skills in bonus ;
- Int. gives Int. skills in bonus ;
- Cha. gives Cha. skills in bonus ;
- ...
I think you should allow to remove "at-will powers" at first level, or propose a specific rule for universe where magic is less prolific...
Well aside from making Psionics core ;), I would say those "2 skill rank classes" have always bothered me. I would support having a 4 rank minimum.
One thing I would add are some guidlines for making varitions on the classes. Pathfnder Gazetteer has some examples for swaping out one class ability for something new and I like this option. This opens the door for Wizards from different regions having different daily spells.
Other than that, I'm not seeing a lot I would change. There are options I would like to see explored and added too, like Ranger Combat styles, but that could be done in later books or as pdf releases.
Rage points. It seem awkward and has to go.
An alterative mechanic should work the same way as the bard's perform powers. It's the closest think I can think of.
Allow more spells choices for wizards domains ! Lets the player choose between 3, or 4 spells for each domain powers.
A specialist should choose what he wants learn !
Well aside from making Psionics core ;)
I wholly support this! Psionics is excellent, and one of my favorite books in my 3.5 library (along with ToB). Much of it is open content, but with the kicker that the core PHB classes are getting, some sort of Pathfinder treatment for the Psionic classes would be appreciated.
But reinstating Concentration is a bigger issue for me. I'm sure the good folks at Dreamscarred Press can handle the Pathfinder upgrade if they really need to...