Maybe give clerics light armor and simple weapons, and then have some of the more battle ready domain give out heavier armor, shield, and better weapons? (Kind of like 5th Edition does.)
I made a quick priest base class mock up. It's strongly based on the cleric, and trades combat durability for magical flexibility. One of the strongest features of the cleric spell list is how useful it can be in a pinch, but often the cleric doesn't have every emergency spell prepared. This version of the priest hopes to alleviate this without making it too powerful.
PRIEST
BAB: +1/2
Good Saves: Will
Hit Dice: 1d6
Class Skills: Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Ranks per Level: 6 + Intelligence modifier
Priests are proficient in all simple weapons and light armor.
LEVEL ABILITY
1. Aura, Channel Energy 1d6, Domains, Spontaneous Casting (cure/inflict)
2. Spontaneous Orison, Wise Scholar
3. Channel Energy 2d6
4. Spontaneous Spell (1st level)
5. Channel Energy 3d6
6. Spontaneous Spell (2nd level)
7. Channel Energy 4d6
8. Spontaneous Spell (3rd level)
9. Channel Energy 5d6
10. Spontaneous Spell (4th level)
11. Channel Energy 6d6
12. Spontaneous Spell (5th level)
13. Channel Energy 7d6
14. Spontaneous Spell (6th level)
15. Channel Energy 8d6
16. Spontaneous Spell (7th level)
17. Channel Energy 9d6
18. Spontaneous Spell (8th level)
19. Channel Energy 10d6
20. Spontaneous Spell (9th level)
Spontaneous Orison (Sp): At 2nd level, once per day, you can use a swift action to prepare a 0 level spell from the cleric list.
Wise Scholar (Ex): At 2nd level, you add half your priest level, up to a maximum equal to your Wisdom modifier, to all Intelligence-based skill checks you have at least 1 skill rank in.
Spontaneous Spell (Sp): At 4th level, you gain a 1st level spell slot that you can use to cast any 1st level cleric spell, even if you do not have it prepared. At 6th level, and every 2 levels thereafter, you gain an additional spell slot of the indicated level. You can choose to cast a lower level spell with a higher level spell slot. You can also choose to apply any metamagic feat you know to the selected spell, increasing the casting time and level of the spell slot, as normal (see sorcerer for more details, yada yada yada).
Note: upthread, someone mentioned a way to give the cleric a way to cast some touch spells at range would be cool; maybe use a daily use of Channel Energy to apply the Reach Spell to beneficial spells (if you channel positive energy) or harmful spells (if you channel negative energy).
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Actually, one of the aspects I liked about 5E, as little as I've played, was how they seemed to not worry too much about "battle ready" Domains offering things like Heavy Armor.
For instance it's the Life Domain (Healing) that grants Heavy Armor in that free download version. I'd have to look at the physical book to see the others.
The Nature Domain also grants it, while the Tempest Domain grants both Martial Weapons and Heavy Armor, as does the War Domain.
But, I do agree, that a sort of concept like that to help build the Cleric would be good.
I really do not see a need for a cloth Cleric, since that can already be handled with the base Cleric and choices, and really isn't what the Cleric is supposed to be anyway.
The huge problem is though that the original concept of the cleric has been made completely redundant
In my opinion, the Oracle class makes a better white mage style priest anyway. I'd actually much rather see the Class start taking some ground back from the other divine warriors, (Inquisitor, Warpriest, and even Paladin) and finally find a solid niche. Something more like a combat medic/holy knight the class concept was based on.
I just cant see it happening, the martial side of things is so completely entrenched with Warpriest, Inquisitor, Paladin that there would be no point. Any changes would reek havoc!
The 'gap in the market' is that of the more caster cleric and/or D6 priest.
And ironically this is probably the most thematic too since literature from all cultures is full of references to unarmoured holy men wielding divine power. This role really isnt suited to an Oracle because these men are always full of righteous conviction in the supremacy of their ONE true god..... a concept largely at odds with that of the Oracle.
I really don't think that the regular cleric can cover for the unarmoured D6 priest. It's not a matter of build or priority. Just like how you can't build an unarmoured, sword wielding dude from a Fighter; all you've done is impair yourself by removing armour.
I largely agree....the Ecclesitheurge had the right idea but sadly was poorly executed.
I suspect that Paizo will probably continue to churn out disfunctional cleric archetypes and thus maintain the bland, boring and stale cleric staus quo.
I also think that it's weird that a cleric of Iomedae and Norgorber are about the same, mechanics wise.
Due to the lack of substance in most cleric archetypes things like this tend to happen
it's the lack of meaningful choice in most things cleric and the power disparity among domains.
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I really do not see a need for a cloth Cleric, since that can already be handled with the base Cleric and choices, and really isn't what the Cleric is supposed to be anyway.
The huge problem is though that the original concept of the cleric has been made completely redundant.
I'm not sure I agree with that. Having played Inquisitors, Oracles, Warpriests, etc. . ., many of them don't play as well at the theme of martial Cleric as I'd like or expect them to. Inquisitor can be close. Warpriest only partially, and it's main problem is the very slow spell progression and the fact it has too many things it should be doing but not enough time or resources to do it. Too many hands in the pot in it's creation.
Ideally, we should start getting options for the Cleric that the Warpriest, Oracle, Paladin, and Inquisitor can not take, but Paizo seems to instead want to do the opposite.
The 'gap in the market' is that of the more caster cleric and/or D6 priest.
And ironically this is probably the most thematic too since literature from all cultures is full of references to unarmoured holy men wielding divine power. This role really isnt suited to an Oracle because these men are always full of righteous conviction in the supremacy of their ONE true god..... a concept largely at odds with that of the Oracle.
I'm not really sure there is a gap in the market, nor much of a desire for this outside of a few individuals, when this concept can already be done plenty of ways. From playing an unarmed/unarmed Cleric, Oracle, etc. . ., to even playing a religious Wizard, Sorcerer, Bloodrager, or Magus.
How is that at odds with the Oracle? At all?
I'd actually say that Oracles can pull it off, mechanically speaking even better, as Spontaneous Casters, because if their ONE true god tells them to burn the infidels or whatever, they can actually do that more than 1/day, and can also do it with more methods than just their straight up spells. With the exception of the crappy Fire Domain's Fire Bolt, (or obviously Wands/Scrolls/Staffs/etc which works equally for both), Clerics can't.
Oracles, with Spontaneous casting do a much better job of pulling off the concept of praying for a miracle, which may not be the exact spell you want. Cleric's Prepared Casting doesn't actually handle that well, as there is far too much potential for not having the right spell at the right time or not having enough of them.
^Splitting the Cleric into 2 classes could help satisfy the disagreeig opiniions. Warpriest sort of does this for the martial end of things, but probably needs some tweaks to really do it right, since it apparently doesn't outshine battle Clerics enough in that regard to make up for the 6/9 spellcasting on the same BAB and HD.
I hope I'm not coming off as to negative or antagonistic, which isn't my intent. Rather, I'm trying to have a meaningful conversation, and to see if anything anyone says might make me rethink my opinion or show me something I didn't see. Honestly, the biggest obstacle I see in the Cleric ever being fixed or improved is how many nearly exact opposite views there are on what is wrong or needs to be done.
No of course not... dont apologise for having an opinion!
You are right, it is a strange one. When I did my 'Fighter Unchained' thread it was very clear what areas needed work. But with 'Cleric Unchained' the opinions are wider and more varied.
Its is clear though that something needs changing in a big way.
Paizo seem to be trying the rather ineffective 'stick a plaster on it' approach with the cleric, the classic example being channeling.
Instead of recognising its general crapness, they are trying to correct it with a stream of mostly poor channel feats. This being doubly unfortunate as it fails to take into account how feat starved the base cleric class is!
So many aspects of the clerics role have gone - even healing can now be effectively done by several other classes.
We will have to agree to disagree on the battle cleric thing - I have seen several others post in threads that nowadays the worst build for a cleric is battle!
The Oracle is completely wrong for the D6 role thematically. The robed holy man is a devout worshipper who sacrifices their life in the worship and teachings of their one god. Oracles dont need to do anything to gain their powers....no preaching, no holy symbology, no places of worship, no religous ceremony or texts, not even praying!!!!
The complete antithesis of what the D6 holy man represents in all cultural references.... and there are many, many people who would like to see a D6 divine class. In fact the D6 divine class is very widely 3PP'd and homebrewed... probably more so than any other concept.
me. but i don't know if there are many many others.
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You are right, it is a strange one. When I did my 'Fighter Unchained' thread it was very clear what areas needed work. But with 'Cleric Unchained' the opinions are wider and more varied.
Its is clear though that something needs changing in a big way.
Paizo seem to be trying the rather ineffective 'stick a plaster on it' approach with the cleric, the classic example being channeling.
Instead of recognising its general crapness, they are trying to correct it with a stream of mostly poor channel feats. This being doubly unfortunate as it fails to take into account how feat starved the base cleric class is!So many aspects of the clerics role have gone - even healing can now be effectively done by several other classes.
I've never been a fan of Channel Energy. I liked Turn/Rebuke Undead, (and a little off topic, also the Turn/Rebuke Fire Element for the Fire Domain as well) better, but as a theme and in the effectiveness and cool factor of the Class. To me, Channel Energy, even Channel Negative Energy, is just boring.
The two biggest issues I have with the mechanic is that 1.) it offers a Save, which is just stupid. But, more pertinent to this discussion is the fact that the class is a very Feat starved class, (regardless of if it actually "blows up reality" at all, much less with Feats), it's still a Feat starved class and one that is much less interesting because of it. However, unlike practically everything else in the game, using Feats to boost Channeling does very little to actually help Channeling. Most Feats <for Channeling> do not work with each other, instead allowing you to do something extremely circumstantial instead of doing anything else. That's very bad design. But, in addition to that, most of them are either worded very oddly or just not that interesting. For example, if I take Alignment Channel Evil on a Good Cleric, wouldn't it make more sense that I can Heal Good Outsiders and Harm Evil Outsiders rather than being able to Heal or Harm Evil Outsiders? Similarly, if I'm a Fire Cleric and I take Elemental Channel Water, wouldn't it make sense that I could Heal Fire Elementals and Harm Water Elementals?
We will have to agree to disagree on the battle cleric thing - I have seen several others post in threads that nowadays the worst build for a cleric is battle!
It's less about how good or bad a build it is as much as how boring or fun the build is to play. I don't agree that the battle Cleric, even with the Warpriest, Druid, Mendev Priest/Crusader Archetype, Paladin, Battle Oracle, or battle Oracle is the worst build, but I'd be hard pressed to find an argument that it's the least fun, even just for Cleric builds. I guess it also really depends on what you mean by Battle Cleric, or even what you are comparing it too. As I mentioned, the Herald Caller Cleric makes a pretty effective Battle Cleric, and probably does so better than everything else it was really intended for, because it grants free Feats for things you where already going to be doing anyway and synergizes so well as is.
The Oracle is completely wrong for the D6 role thematically. The robed holy man is a devout worshipper who sacrifices their life in the worship and teachings of their one god. Oracles dont need to do anything to gain their powers....no preaching, no holy symbology, no places of worship, no religous ceremony or texts, not even praying!!!!
The complete antithesis of what the D6 holy man represents in all cultural references.... and there are many, many people who would like to see a D6 divine class. In fact the D6 divine class is very widely 3PP'd and homebrewed... probably more so...
The Core Cleric doesn't either, nor do the Paladin, Druid, etc. . ., both in Core and in Golarion. In most cultural and literary references, the idea that a single god, or even a god at all granting the champion their divine power is not very supported. It tends to instead come from universal, non-sentient forces (like the Force, the Light, the Heavens, the Cosmos, etc. . .), a group of gods, or even one' self. In fact, I'd say that the vast majority of Priest Cleric-like references are actually the individual attaining some sort of self-awareness or extraordinary understanding rather than a Patron Deity granting them powers. That is, it's faith or individual spiritual expertise, not a daily gift from an outside source.
However, something you may not be realizing is that the Oracle, while they are not required to have a single Patron deity, mechanically speaking, can just as easily as, if not more so than any Cleric.
Paizo has basically taken the stance that:
Clerics must have a Patron Deity
Oracles can do anything they want, have one or not, doesn't matter at all.
So, the point I was trying to get across is that both in flavor and mechanics, the Oracle actually makes for a much better D6, no armor, crap weapon Divine Caster. Oracles don't go to military chaplain to learn to use a favored weapon, and really have no reason at all to even learn to use any armor (just like a Sorcerer). But, they do have class features designed to augment their magic around a theme.
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Oi, careful with the spell list please! There are three classes that rely on that you know!
Why would that stay the same? Unchained Clerics would have their own separate list (much like the Unchained Summoner) and would for some people probably become the default (like removing the option of the core Summoner).
I will agree with you that cure x wounds spells and inflict x wounds spells probably shouldn't be restricted.If you think cures and inflicts are what are important there's clearly no point discussing anything. You're clearly from an alternate universe where shadows and spectres and mummies aren't in the first bestiary, cause blindness/deafness isn't a spell, poison just does small amounts of HP damage over a few rounds, and there are no disease rules at all. Who knows what else is different.
I never said they were the only important things. Sure, Remove Poison, Remove Disease, etc are important too. That's why it should have to be a choice. If you want all the fires spells, maybe you don't get the Save your Ass spells too. You try and UMD them just like anyone else though. Difficult choices are a good thing in my opinion.
I think I will mention one thing, I think of the "Unchaining" of the Cleric as a chance to change and redefine it's role, not keep it as it is. And by that I mean instead of the cleric being the "band-aid" class/ 3/4 BAB warrior with a good spell list it becomes a real representative of their deity. To me, the Unchained Cleric would have it's role depend heavily on the deity. What the deity does, the domains and portfolios the deity possesses. While "spiritually" the cleric is supposed to represent their deity, mechanically the cleric has done a poor job of this. You get a favored weapon and some generally weak domain powers, that's about the extent of mechanics that depend on your deity. From an optimization standpoint only a few deities are worthwhile since they're they only ones that offer good domain powers. The spell list is completely modular, the only things you lose out on are spells restricted by your or your deity's alignment, and there are usually complimentary spells of your own alignment you can cast.
Except for a few limited parts, clerics of different deities were very similar. To me, that just isn't the way it should be.
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For example, if I take Alignment Channel Evil on a Good Cleric, wouldn't it make more sense that I can Heal Good Outsiders and Harm Evil Outsiders rather than being able to Heal or Harm Evil Outsiders? Similarly, if I'm a Fire Cleric and I take Elemental Channel Water, wouldn't it make sense that I could Heal Fire Elementals and Harm Water Elementals?
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Okay, so I'm not hallucinating about the bad design of those feats.
Some archetype (I can't remember what of -- not necessarily Cleric) actually has specific wording that fixes this, but only for that archetype.
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Reducing the spell list to all of the Domain spells for your deity, plus whatever cure or inflict spells you could channel would be one way to individualize different clerics. Any additional cleric spells would be added one or two per level, similarly to how a wizard gains their spells, or could be learned from scrolls, etc. again, similarly to how a wizard gains spells. Spells from subdomains available to the clerics gods might also be added to the automatically-known list...
...Increasing the number of domains / subdomains available, either as class features, or through feats, might help to mix things up, as well as letting some of the domain powers scale, instead of remaining at 1d6 hp +1 hp/2 levels.
Do you have a concrete proposal for how to balance this spell removal?
Example: Bonus Domain at 4th, 10th, 16th.
Example: Bonus Feats at 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, 20th.
Example: 4 Skill points and all Knowledge skills as class skills.
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Clerics are my favourite class, but they're terribly bland. I'd like an updated version where they have more stuff to do.
I'm divided about moving it to an armourless d6 class. It puts it more in line with the Sorcerer and Wizard, but he simply doesn't have the defensive capabilities of them. No access to Mage Armor and the like make him get hit a lot more. And while most Sorc/Wiz spells are proactive, many Cleric spells are reactive. Sorc/Wiz spells blow things up before they get hit, so they don't need the armour. Cleric simply doesn't have a lot of damage spells. I think my idea of the Cleric being in medium armour is just too entrenched to let it go.
I think Clerics can get more class features through two routes:
1. Have more domain unlockables, like Oracle Revelations or Occultist Mental Powers. There's like 30 domains, so that's pretty tough to balance, but it'll give Clerics something to look out for.
2. Have Clerics unlock more domains as they progress. They start with one Domain, but every fifth level they get another one. Most deities have only 4 domains, so the capstone is you getting access to a domain outside your deities' realm.
As suggested, having certain skills tied to your deity/domain would also be really sweet and in flavour. Pretty powerful, but getting half you level (or heck, full level) on Heal if you worship Sarenrae (or Healing Domain) seems like a cool boon.
Giving prep casters access to more powers seems like a bad idea though, because I think Oracles, Witches, and Occultists get those powers to make up for their limited spell list. You have access to all the spells, and some extra goodies. But it's a clean way of making Clerics more exciting to play. Once you get your level 8 Domain ability, most of the level 1 abilities have already become obsolete. Seriously, a 1d6+half level on damage on a ray isn't exciting anymore past level 4. And after level 8, there's nothing to look forward to anymore besides more spells, yay.
My version of a "priest" class gets most of its spell list from domains (it gets 6) and its base spell list only has a few common spells.
My version of a "priest" class gets most of its spell list from domains (it gets 6) and its base spell list only has a few common spells.
That's basically what I'm proposing, although rather than more domains I would propose expanding the spells on domain lists to include quite a few more while getting rid of domain spell slots completely and allowing clerics to cast these spells out of their normal slots.
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Shouldn't a "priest" with +1/2 BAB, 1d6 HD, only Good Will, and no armor be better at casting than a cleric with +3/4 BAB, 1d8 HD, Good Fort & Will, light & medium armor & shield?
Losing the bonus domain spell slots seems like the opposite of what should be done. They should get to use more magic, either through more spell slots or a mechanic that lets them "recharge" spell slots, like the arcanist and magus. Maybe even divine talents every even level. Or something like hexes, but divine flavored. Maybe even bonus feats.
Shouldn't a "priest" with +1/2 BAB, 1d6 HD, only Good Will, and no armor be better at casting than a cleric with +3/4 BAB, 1d8 HD, Good Fort & Will, light & medium armor & shield?
Losing the bonus domain spell slots seems like the opposite of what should be done. They should get to use more magic, either through more spell slots or a mechanic that lets them "recharge" spell slots, like the arcanist and magus. Maybe even divine talents every even level. Or something like hexes, but divine flavored. Maybe even bonus feats.
If you're referring to me, I wouldn't make those changes you've listed. The cleric would retain their BAB, HD, and saves, and proficiency. The main thing I want to do is change the cleric spell list a lot, remove the single domain slot spell and replace it with the ability to cast their domain spells out of any slot, and have domains add a lot of spells to their list as well as adding some extra powers that would be better than existing domain powers (which I haven't really given much consideration to).
Oh, OK.
It seems like there are two major themes on this thread:
1. Changes to make the cleric more fun.
2. A new (or "wizardly") divine magic-user.
Oh, OK.
It seems like there are two major themes on this thread:
1. Changes to make the cleric more fun.
2. A new (or "wizardly") divine magic-user.
Yes, that does appear to be the case.
Some people want a d6 cloth caster divine equivalent to the wizard. I do not.
I want a cleric that is somewhat martial and reflects the actual role of their deity more accurately. Maybe clerics of Gorum get free combat feats as part of the War domain. Clerics of Sarenrae with the Fire domain get access to a lot of fire spells. The basic cleric spell list would be gutted pretty hard, and you would instead gain most of your spells and abilities from the domains you choose.
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i actually think everyone wants the first one and some of us also want the second one.
personally, i thought the warpriest was redundant; the cleric is supposed to be a warpriest. but i'm not sure everyone at paizo sees it that way. which is why i'm all for also having a more castery d6 priest class. because then there's no more confusion about where the cleric stands.
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Unchained Cleric
In faith and the miracles of the divine, many find a greater purpose. Called to serve powers beyond most mortal understanding, all priests preach wonders and provide for the spiritual needs of their people. Clerics are more than mere priests, though; these emissaries of the divine work the will of their deities through strength of arms and the magic of their gods. Devoted to the tenets of the religions and philosophies that inspire them, these ecclesiastics quest to spread the knowledge and influence of their faith. Yet while they might share similar abilities, clerics prove as different from one another as the divinities they serve, with some offering healing and redemption, others judging law and truth, and still others spreading conflict and corruption. The ways of the cleric are varied, yet all who tread these paths walk with the mightiest of allies and bear the arms of the gods themselves.
Role: More than capable of upholding the honor of their deities in battle, clerics often prove stalwart and capable combatants. Their true strength lies in their capability to draw upon the power of their deities, whether to increase their own and their allies' prowess in battle, to vex their foes with divine magic, or to lend healing to companions in need.
As their powers are influenced by their faith, all clerics must focus their worship upon a divine source.
Alignment: A cleric's alignment must be within one step of her Deity's, along either the law/chaos axis or the good/evil axis (see Additional Rules).
HD: d8
BAB: 3/4
Saves: Will plus Diety (see below)
Skills: 4 + INT
Class Skills: Appraise (Int), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (nobility) (Int), Knowledge (planes) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int), plus Deity (see below).
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Clerics are proficient with all simple weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields). Clerics are also proficient with the favored weapons and armor of their Deity.
1 - Diety, Aura, Orisons, Channel Energy (1d6)
2 - 1st Domain, Spontaneous Casting, Domain Power
3 - Channel Energy (2d6)
4 - Domain Power
5 - Channel Energy (3d6)
6 - 2nd Domain, Domain Power
7 - Channel Energy (4d6)
8 - Domain Power
9 - Channel Energy (5d6)
10 - 3rd Domain, Domain Power
11 - Channel Energy (6d6)
12 - Domain Power
13 - Channel Energy (7d6)
14 - 4th Domain, Domain Power
15 - Channel Energy (8d6)
16 - Domain Power
17 - Channel Energy (9d6)
18 - 5th Domain, Domain Power
19 - Channel Energy (10d6)
20 - Divine Emmisary (Diety), Domain Power
Diety
A Clerics chosen Diety affects her second strong save (Fortitude or Reflex), her class skills, her initial weapon and armor proficiencies, the Domains available to her (starting with 2nd level), as well as granting her an additional benefit at 1st level.
Domain
A cleric gains her first Domain at 2nd level, and another every four levels thereafter. When choosing a Domain, she must pick one that aligns with the portfolio of her chosen Diety. Whenever she gains a Domain Power, the cleric must choose one from one of her Domains. Finally, each Domain comes with a spell list - the cleric may Spontaneously Cast a spell from any of her Domain's spell lists, losing a prepared spell of the same or higher level to do so. A cleric spontaneously casting a Domain spell using a higher level spell slot treats the spell as equal in level to the slot she expended to cast it.
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Now the real work begins in fleshing out Dieties and (new) Domain spells and powers.
Diety
2nd Good Saving Throw (if any)
Additional Class Skills (if any)
Additional Weapon and Armor Proficiencies (if any)
1st level benefit (feat, power, starting equipment, etc)
Aura and Domains (these are already done for the CRB Dieties)
Domains
Additional spells added to spell list
Additional Domain Powers added to those already available
^You should also mention that dieties are those deities whose followers are so zealous that they refuse to accept the scientifically proven reality of Survival of the Fattest . . . .
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Another thing I'd like to see is that the requirement to be within 1 step of deity's alignment is just a default rather than hard-coded, and individual deities can choose to have looser or more stringent standards. So some deity like Nethys (who's all crazy and mixed up) might accept ALL alignments, while some really hard-core deity like Rovagug might accept only Chaotic Evil followers, and some deity who's trying to be hard-core but starting to snap under pressure like Iomedae might not accept anything non-Lawful, but might accept even partially Evil Lawfuls.
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Good point.
I guess I wanted to establish a benchmark with the core Cleric as concerns Alignment, HD, BAB, Skills, and Proficiencies, among other metrics - an expectation that an "average" Unchained Cleric could be held to when a player considers playing the class. The work of fleshing out each Deity individually is fully free to tweak these benchmarks as appropriate.
For example, the Deity of Gorum could break the mold by offering improved HD (d10), fewer skill points (2 + INT), Climb and Swim as Class Skills, proficiency with martial weapons, reduced Channeling (1d6 beginning at 3rd level), Power Attack as a bonus feat at 1st, and the option to take a combat feat in place of a Domain Power.
The Deity of Nethys (as you mention) could have relaxed Alignment restrictions, lowered HD (d6), greater skill points (6 + INT), Use Magic Device and Fly as a Class Skills, reduced proficiency (simple weapons and light armor only), a 1st level bonus to Spellcraft and Use Magic Device equal to half Cleric level, and the option to take metamagic feats in place of a Domain Power.
But, most Deities would offer what is presented as standard.
Again, the real work would be in fleshing out each Deity.
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Some excellent suggestions ideas here...
Well I do hate to say it... but I told you so regarding the latest 'attempt' at a cleric archetype
Mythos Cultist
GAINS
+2 on certain knowledge skills
Ability to cause WIS damage (from 5th level)
Better at channeling (higher uses and DC) via CHA as casting stat
LOSES
One entire domain
Restricted 2nd domain
Alignment restriction
Worse at Will saves... etc due to CHA as casting stat (although there are a couple of exceptions)
Channeling modified (can't heal) as it now only affects 'flesh and blood' (but can effect creatures immune to neg energy)
Spontaneous heal/harm
Autofails on confusion, insanity and nightmare and -2 on any mind affecting effect
Effectively has to spend a feat on Selective Channeling due to the emphasis
Its bizarre it really is... exactly like I was saying previously regarding channeling, Paizo keep on flogging that dead horse!!
Having more uses of something thats terrible DOES NOT EQUAL good archetype design!
You can make a basic cleric of a GOO/OG a more effective archetype than this archetype! What can I say..!
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Its bizarre it really is... exactly like I was saying previously regarding channeling, Paizo keep on flogging that dead horse!!
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Well, you see, it's actually an UNDEAD horse . . . .
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That's really disappointing. Are there any other Archetypes (or options) for Clerics? I mean a book called Horror Adventures has got to be like 50% Cleric and Paladin, right? Right. . .
It looks, from that brief overview, playable, just not very worthwhile or what I was hoping for, or really even desirable, even as an intentionally weak "we make options for NPC's, too".
Loosing Spontaneous Cure/Harm I consider a boon. Might even trade out a Domain for that. Maybe. It's close.
But autofailing Confussion and a few other things, and a -2 on Mind-Effects, with a decreased Will Save, I'd expect like triple spellcasting ability or Full BaB and d10 or d12 HD or something to compensate. 10+Int+Wis Skill Points. Something along those lines.
-1 Domain, who really cares.
Restricted Alignment. Was going to do that anyway, if the Archetype is anything at all like I'd assume it is. (I'm guessing either Chaotic only, or CN/CE only. Possibly non-good/non-lawful.)
I guess it comes down to Wis Damage, though having to wait at all, much less until level 5 makes me very leery. If it in any way offers a Save, way to negate, or reduce, or required more than a Move Action to use, than I'm not interested. Just about every Oracle build is probably better in every way.
That's really disappointing. Are there any other Archetypes (or options) for Clerics? I mean a book called Horror Adventures has got to be like 50% Cleric and Paladin, right? Right. . .
Nope.... one of the very few classes (perhaps only?) that only got one archetype.
Looking back again at the info leaked out, this archetype is actually pretty terrible..... like almost into the realms of Appeaser, Cardinal and Cloistered Cleric terrible!!
Being able to inflict WIS damage as a PC on monsters is pretty insignificant when you think about it... :(
And yet again, it didnt touch armour or shield proficiencies.... even though 'Cultist' SCREAMS no armour.
The archetype actually screws up 2 in 1.... a really imaginative, promising concept like a Mythos Cultist and a channeling focussed cleric. You basically have to spend a feat straight away in order to make use of the channeling.
Its actually almost laughable.... a basic cleric of a GOO/OG who takes Dreamed Secrets (which ironically is a tricky option for the Mythos Cultist due to its CHA emphasis) absolutely trounces the archetype at its own game!
As my Irish colleague would say..."Jeeesus, Mary and Joseph Paizo.... You couldn't organise a *&%$ up in the Guinness factory!"
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Wis Damage could be pretty great, actually, as anything that can penalize Will Saves is good, and honestly there is a huge precedence for Wis relating to sanity. The keys are when can this actually be done (5th level is not too good), and if it can be resisted/negated.
I have not seen the Archetype, so can't say really how it's themed. But, I'd say a cultist that can't use much in the way of armor or arms would probably stand out as a pretty bad hidden cultist.
I'll reserve judgement, but not optimistic.
Something I've wanted to do for a while is play an unarmoured Inquisitor or Cleric, while still being able to engage in melee (because it's cool). So how about an archetype or other way to gain Wis to AC instead of armour proficency? Even if it was an armour bonus (thus also superiorly sub-par to medium or even light armour), I'd love that.
Sounds a lot like the Sacred Fist Warpriest
Wis Damage could be pretty great, actually, as anything that can penalize Will Saves is good, and honestly there is a huge precedence for Wis relating to sanity. The keys are when can this actually be done (5th level is not too good), and if it can be resisted/negated.
I disagree - what you always have to consider when talking about 'abilities' is opportunity cost. The WIS damage ability (whatever the specifics may be) has to be a good enough option so as to overlook others available.
Lets say its a standard action, single target, close range ability, no SR but a save (a reasonable assumption).... even a -6 WIS effect only equates to a -3 on Will saves. Can I do better with my existing spells/abilities?.... 90-95% of the time you bet!!
Ergo....a very poor trade off considering what has been given up.
I have not seen the Archetype, so can't say really how it's themed. But, I'd say a cultist that can't use much in the way of armor or arms would probably stand out as a pretty bad hidden cultist.
Why? Its not like everyone walks around with armour and a shield?!
I'll reserve judgement, but not optimistic.
I havent seen the full details myself either, but there is a whole lot of precedent not to be hopeful!
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A 50/50 chance to imply a 15% increase that a lot of your spell list will work, not to mention the rest of the party hitting with Will Saves doesn't sound terrible to me.
Add in a Witch, and if it stacks with Bestow Curse, you can really wreck something that survives a round with the Fighter or Barbarian.
It's not that you can't do something better with you spells instead. It's that you have a decent chance that many of your spells actually work.
^Yes, but unless you go through hoops to get defenses or naturally have Spell Resistance or Immunity, you also guarantee that your enemies' confusion, insanity and nightmare spells work on you.
A way to make clerics more varied that would be relatively easy to put (I think at least) would be to switch the domain spells per day and nondomain spells per day. Give each domain a set number of domain spells per level, say 5 for example. That would give the cleric 10 spell per level (not including overlap) to choose from to fill their spells per day and 1 open spell slot that they can fill with any level appropriate cleric spell. It would make the domains a heavy influence on how the cleric plays without touching other classes or overhauling other features.
The example in my head was say a cleric chose Fire and Sun. They would have most of the light, fire, and anti-undead spells available normally but if they wanted the cast Water Breathing they would have to use their one level 3 nondomain slot.
Might have to raise the number of domain spells per level but it would make what kinds of buffs each cleric cast reflect their deity. There will be some junk domains but it would still make more domains viable, even if only because it has a few hard to get buffs.
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I've got a few Clerics in PFS, one of them 16th level, and I've never had to cure or remove level drain, blindness, or deafness, and the very few times I have removed stat damage, poison or disease, it's been on NPCs and with the Heal Skill (with Vest of Surgery).
If I had to, Scrolls are cheap, and I've been carrying around a stack of unused ones for a long time.
The person who needs their um, um fixed can also do a few things on that account, too. Like play smarter and wiser or invest in potions for themselves.
Cleric ISN'T the class that can fix others WHILE BEING ABLE TO DO FUN THINGS. It's either/or, with the exception of maybe Quickened Remove ____ spells, though many of them have longer Casting Times.
Typically I view my 1 job as to try to talk the group out of fights, and if it's required, to strike hard and fast, ending the fight in the fastest and safest way possible. Drawing out the pain and bloodshed by trying to patch up little boo-boos like level drain on the spot is just cruel and vindictive.
Rub dirt on it, drink water, and wipe the tears away.
Or as Cap said, "If you die, . . . walk it off".
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So here's the lowdown on the Mythos Cultist amazingly worthwhile (*coughchokesplutter*) WIS damage ability
They are all standard action, single living target, 30 foot range.
Useage: 1/day at 5th and one extra use every 3 levels
5th level: 2 points of wisdom dmg + confusion and sickened for 1d4 rounds at 5th lvl. Will save negates.
11th level: 1d6+1 wisdom dmg + confused and sickened for 2d4 rounds. Will save reduces to 1 wisdom dmg and sickened for 1d6 rounds.
19th lvl: 2d6 wisdom damage and the target is permanently confused and sickened. Greater restoration, heal, limited wish, wish, or miracle can release the sickened and confused condition. Will save negates.
This replaces the channel upgrades at 5th, 11th and 19th lvl.
And here are my overall thoughts
Well I have to say the Mythos Cultist is just plain bad....and very disappointing IMO, especially since the cleric only got 1 archetype whilst others got 3!
1) Making channeling more viable (a highly dubious idea in the first place) and then stripping 3D6 off the top just makes it doubly pointless. Variant channeling becomes the default/only option... bad news since theyre just not remotely worth the action economy. Also you're obliged to spend a feat due to the emphasis (which the cleric has very few of in the first place) in order to get Selective Channel.
2)The 19th level ability is a waste because:
a) You're well into 9th level spell territory anyway.... infinitely better options have long been available
b) The conditions can be removed by almost any half decent caster
c) Will negates
3) The lower level abilities are barely useful and due to the standard action/limited use per day/single target/Will negates will rarely get any useage.
4) A bog standard cleric of a GOO/OG can easily be built to be a more effective cultist than the cultist archetype itself!... NEVER a good sign!
5) Just overall the trade offs in general are REALLY imbalanced...I'm seriously thinking of going part time as a chemist and then part time as an archetype designer! ;))
Another tombstone has appeared in the Graveyard of Cleric Archetypes; and as on the others it reads...'Great idea, very poor execution'....RIP
Something I've wanted to do for a while is play an unarmoured Inquisitor or Cleric, while still being able to engage in melee (because it's cool). So how about an archetype or other way to gain Wis to AC instead of armour proficency? Even if it was an armour bonus (thus also superiorly sub-par to medium or even light armour), I'd love that.
A WIS to AC would be great for a D6 priest class...
Even if a D6 divine class emerged, the Wiz/Sorc would obviously have to retain the best overall spell list, but something like this would be good to provide a different balancing factor and a way to differentiate from the D8 cleric....
I never said they were the only important things. Sure, Remove Poison, Remove Disease, etc are important too. That's why it should have to be a choice. If you want all the fires spells, maybe you don't get the Save your Ass spells too. You try and UMD them just like anyone else though. Difficult choices are a good thing in my opinion.As a cleric you have one job. If you can't do it you should be playing a pious wizard. Someone has to have the spells to return the party to full functionality or you get the fun destroying choice between a death spiral and slogging back to town every time someone catches the sniffles. Heaven help you if it's something acute like poison. Except in your game Heaven won't because you f$~+ed the cleric list over and some poor dumb idiot thought that it was okay to call himself a cleric while instead being a s#!@ty redundant wizard.
I think I will mention one thing, I think of the "Unchaining" of the Cleric as a chance to change and redefine it's role, not keep it as it is. And by that I mean instead of the cleric being the "band-aid" class...Someone has to be the class that fixes your s*%* when any but the blandest beatstick monsters make an appearance. If you take that from cleric there's no one else that can fix your s#%& while still being able to do fun things. You've taken a game where someone has to be a cleric or a specific patron witch but there is a little variety in builds to one where you have to play the one true very boring healbot cleric because if you choose anything interesting you can't do your job.
You can't take that role from the cleric until you first completely remove the level drain, stat damage, poison, disease, blindness, and deafness mechanics from the game.
Nope. You're too stuck in what the cleric was. The Unchained Cleric wouldn't need to fill the same role. It's not as though the Classic Cleric will cease to be.
And for what its worth, I've not played a single game in the past 5 years were someone was a cleric and we got by just fine. Scrolls, wands, other classes can all substitute. We're talking about a new class, that doesn't need to be subject to the baggage of the old class.
Honestly, I'd like it at the D8 Cleric more than the D6 Priest class, because that's where AC is any useful.
My rationale for it being better suited to a D6 class was mainly because I envisaged the D6 class to be completely unable to use physical armour or shields (like Ecclesitheurge)..... like even worse than Wiz & Sorc who at least can use mithral bucklers, arcane armour training... etc
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I always liked the Evangelist.
Its OK but nothing special... the loss of 3D6 channel effectively kills off channeling completely and the spontaneous casting options are only meh! It tends to get used a lot due largely to the terrible cleric alternatives!
Again Paizo's weird channeling thing/delusion.... channeling use is only just barely useful in certain situations and even the slightest weakening is enough to invalidate it completely. Hence why I've always thought when designing archetypes it should either have its function boosted somehow (eg Herald Caller) or completely removed and traded for something decent. No half measures!
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Honestly, I'd like it at the D8 Cleric more than the D6 Priest class, because that's where AC is any useful.My rationale for it being better suited to a D6 class was mainly because I envisaged the D6 class to be completely unable to use physical armour or shields (like Ecclesitheurge)..... like even worse than Wiz & Sorc who at least can use mithral bucklers, arcane armour training... etc
I tend to agree with the d8 Cleric being better served. It really plays into the idea of Armor of Faith idea.
The d6 Priest Class, shouldn't get something that's probably even better than armor in many ways to compensate for their flaw of not being able to wear armor. It just seems very backwards to me, and against the theme.