Out of a thread discussing game mechanics, Mistwalker had a particularly insightful comment.
The original thread and the mechanical discussion are HERE
I would hate to see "evil" clerics be able to finger their holy symbol in town, and have dozens of civilians drop dead, for no apparent reason.
The original thread concerned itself about whether clerics could channel energy while being silenced, or whether they needed to invoke their god in a demonstrative (and vocal) manner. See the other thread about the mechanics.
NOW, to the topic at hand...
It just occured to me that an evil cleric can just walk into town, invoke their god (which differentiates from Mistwalker's concern), and literally drop a bunch of common folk dead in their tracks. Like flies.
What a psychological impact that would have! Let alone the literal impact of a bunch of dead people!
This is an example where the Pathfinder RPG rules might shape the flavor of the campaign setting, rather than being shaped *by* the campaign setting. That's really fascinating to me in a geeky 'design' kinda way.
You know? Because a monster can go on a rampage and you (the commoner) can run for your life, but you can't run from the gods if a bad priest decides to strike a bunch of common folk down where they stand. I think this makes a priest of an evil god a whole lot more terrifying.
It makes rooting out bad cults that much more of a civic interest in many communities.
It makes the lawful aspect of Asmodeus woship that much more critical, because young priests would be taught early on that this particular power must be used with discretion and self-discipline.. because to a point, whether Asomdeus worship is accepted or not, there's a threshold one has to be careful not to cross out of concern of a backlash.
I find the implications pretty interesting!
Director of Brand Strategy
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When I first read the channel energy class feature, this was the first thing I thought of. I love it. In a way, it makes an evil cleric more effective than a good cleric, since a good cleric is only going to be able to hurt undead with their attack. Though I guess they could just channel their positive energy to heal the negative done by the evil cleric. It's still a nasty (but wonderful!) result of the new rule. I like it a lot.
Hollowed are the Ori ...
Yeah, striking comparison. I've never been a huge Stargate fan, but Mrs. Watcher is.. and how the Ori and the Priors scared the crap out of everyone, and really pushed conversion is am interesting insight.
Along with Yodatemyhead, I feel this is a great new side-effect of the new rules.
But my first thought in reading the new channeling rules was also about how to use them with evil clerics. :D
My first thought was cool reason for a neutral cleric to take neg. energy and still be on the side of good.
A cleric would have to start being fairly high in level to drop people dead with a single turn. 7th level or higher at least.
Only if you needed them dead in one round.
If the evil cleric channels in the surprise round, then in 1st round of combat, even a low level cleric can kill a lot of people in a market or at a meeting.
A cleric would have to start being fairly high in level to drop people dead with a single turn. 7th level or higher at least.Only if you needed them dead in one round.
If the evil cleric channels in the surprise round, then in 1st round of combat, even a low level cleric can kill a lot of people in a market or at a meeting.
A point to Wicht!
A withering effect perhaps? As people try to flee in a blind panic from something killing them as seconds tic by.
Very creepy from a role-playing / description point of view.
Reminds me of Edgar Allen Poe or some such.. I know the Masque of the Red Death was about the plague, but when Prospero confronts the mysterious stranger he drops dead..
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A cleric would have to start being fairly high in level to drop people dead with a single turn. 7th level or higher at least.
But my first thought in reading the new channeling rules was also about how to use them with evil clerics. :D
Why, starting hp for commoners is usually 4, if we apply the bonus Hp from pathfinder they'll have around ten, a 3d6 turn is all thats needed, or if they don't get the bonus hp then 1d6 could kill them.
Why, starting hp for commoners is usually 4, if we apply the bonus Hp from pathfinder they'll have around ten, a 3d6 turn is all thats needed, or if they don't get the bonus hp then 1d6 could kill them.
heh. Even better - how many hp's do the children in the orphanage have? Or the beggars waiting in line trying to get a free handout from the local good temple?
I'd say there's no better way to discredit a good church than to have some evil cleric disguise himself and have at it...
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Why, starting hp for commoners is usually 4, if we apply the bonus Hp from pathfinder they'll have around ten, a 3d6 turn is all thats needed, or if they don't get the bonus hp then 1d6 could kill them.A cleric would have to start being fairly high in level to drop people dead with a single turn. 7th level or higher at least.
But my first thought in reading the new channeling rules was also about how to use them with evil clerics. :D
Maybe its just my play style but I tend to give everyone the same chances. Which means my monsters and NPCs have to be brought into the negatives in order to be dead (a negative equal to Constitution using PF Alpha rules).
Also, children and the elderly would be most likely to drop from the negative channeling, but most towns will have a couple burly men that will be harder to kill. And a Cleric is only going to have a limited number of channeling attempts per day.
That said... imagine this scenario. Evil Cleric worshipping a god of undeath uses a channelling attempt in a small one room school house. Most of the children are dying. A second attempt drops the teacher and finishes off the children. The cleric unfolds a scroll of animate dead and now has a small army to terrorize the little community. The first act of the undead zombie children is to tear apart the unconscious teacher. The cleric still has a couple of channeling attempts left (assuming four per day) and he marches his minions into the marketplace, their hands and mouths still bloody.
Thats terrorism (and terrible).
I'd say there's no better way to discredit a good church than to have some evil cleric disguise himself and have at it...
True!
But that goes back to the game mechanic aspect of the conversation, in the other thread linked above... Please Celric, chime in your thoughts. That conversation is linked in the first post of this thread.
Should any cleric be able to harnass that kind of power, silently and stealthily? Or does their faith, or the god's need to proselytize, mandate something a little more demonstrative?
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That said... imagine this scenario. Evil Cleric worshipping a god of undeath uses a channelling attempt in a small one room school house. Most of the children are dying. A second attempt drops the teacher and finishes off the children. The cleric unfolds a scroll of animate dead and now has a small army to terrorize the little community. The first act of the undead zombie children is to tear apart the unconscious teacher. The cleric still has a couple of channeling attempts left (assuming four per day) and he marches his minions into the marketplace, their hands and mouths still bloody.
Thats terrorism (and terrible).
Wow, nasty.
Also, children and the elderly would be most likely to drop from the negative channeling, but most towns will have a couple burly men that will be harder to kill. And a Cleric is only going to have a limited number of channeling attempts per day.
That said... imagine this scenario. Evil Cleric worshipping a god of undeath uses a channelling attempt in a small one room school house. Most of the children are dying. A second attempt drops the teacher and finishes off the children. The cleric unfolds a scroll of animate dead and now has a small army to terrorize the little community. The first act of the undead zombie children is to tear apart the unconscious teacher. The cleric still has a couple of channeling attempts left (assuming four per day) and he marches his minions into the marketplace, their hands and mouths still bloody.
Thats terrorism (and terrible).
Just imagine how the flavor of the campaign shifts with change in how evil priests are now viewed?
I have to imagine clerics of Asmodeus have to use some restraint, and be taught when and when not to use that ability. You can cow people into submission, or create an angry riot and a lynching, all by casual misuse of the power.
I know the battle with Nualia I ran yesterday was a whole heck of a lot nastier with the new turning (along with a ruling that "Turn Outsider [Evil]" heals her).
The players (much as they hated it) enjoyed the flavor of it, and had to fight it with positive energy (which of course still healed her...)
But that goes back to the game mechanic aspect of the conversation, in the other thread linked above... Please Celric, chime in your thoughts. That conversation is linked in the first post of this thread.
Should any cleric be able to harnass that kind of power, silently and stealthily? Or does their faith, or the god's need to proselytize, mandate something a little more demonstrative?
Well, my first reaction was much like yours in the other thread: Not only do you present your symbol, but say something priest-like to let your foe know who is smiting them (or helping them).
My second reaction was, well, not all wizards use the same methods (thus the need to decipher someone else's grimore, even if it's the same spell) to cast the same exact magic, but Clerics are basically only casting those spells that the Deity allows them, and even their alignments are restricted to being within one step of their god's. Why not let some of that flavor rub off on the ability to channel positive/negative energy?
I've got no tried and true answer for either position :)
What I was thinking in my earlier example was of an evil cleric impersonating a good cleric in a crowd of hopeful beggars, or as the one sent to check up on the orphanage to ensure they were healthy and hale (that school-house example was also great). Would the evil god care that his follower was using a bit of subterfuge to discredit a good god's church? Would that evil god care that the cleric channels negative energy through Him, even though the cleric invokes another god's name or is using a disguised holy symbol? I'll bet that his god knows what's in his heart :)
"I will grant you all the blessing of our God, because his is a hand of generousity, but if there is one amoung you with doubt, then all shall pay for that un-believers' act of faithlessness!"
I'd bet you that anyone with ranks in bluff (or deceit, or whatever) that looks into a crowd of hopeful people will see the exploit needed to abuse that crowd, and when things go bad for the crowd, there will always be that undesireable in town to use as the scapegoat.
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A sunny day. Children laugh and play. The adults gather and celebrate their good fortunes. Harvest had been good.
No one noticed the stranger enter town. He walked to the center, disturbing none. The figure halts, he utters a dark word to his god. Town folk around him fall to the ground, dead and silence. Dark energy emanates from the figure, crackling the air like static [Channel Energy].
The towns folk look at the figure and bodies silenced. Their celebration and good fortune forgotten. Outrage begins to build within the townsfolk. Foolish courage fueled by fear prompts the less prudent into action, taking up stone and club.
The figure looks around at the gathering mob. Anger and hate fills their hearts. They curse and spit at the figure but none dare advance. The mob is silenced as the figure tilts back his head and laughs. A dreadful laugh. His hood slips back, it does not reveal his face, only his eyes. Those eyes.. those glowing yellow eyes.
The figure stops laughing and gestures speaking two dark words. The bodies of the dead begin to twitch and rise [Quicken Desecrate & Animate Dead]. Panic replaces courage, terror replaces fear. The dead have returned.
Smoke rises from the town. A lone figure walks the road. The children laugh no more.
Even better - how many hp's do the children in the orphanage have?
Sick, just sick.... My players are going to love to hate evil Cleric's now! ;)
tfad
Pardon me while I pause to curse the Postmonster. The moment I fail to copy my post a different window is when it always strikes.
What I was thinking in my earlier example was of an evil cleric impersonating a good cleric in a crowd of hopeful beggars, or as the one sent to check up on the orphanage to ensure they were healthy and hale (that school-house example was also great). Would the evil god care that his follower was using a bit of subterfuge to discredit a good god's church? Would that evil god care that the cleric channels negative energy through Him, even though the cleric invokes another god's name or is using a disguised holy symbol? I'll bet that his god knows what's in his heart :)
"I will grant you all the blessing of our God, because his is a hand of generosity, but if there is one among you with doubt, then all shall pay for that un-believers' act of faithlessness!"
I'd bet you that anyone with ranks in bluff (or deceit, or whatever) that looks into a crowd of hopeful people will see the exploit needed to abuse that crowd, and when things go bad for the crowd, there will always be that undesirable in town to use as the scapegoat.
That's a good point and a good example.
However when you go back to the thread that addresses the mechanics, there really was never a problem with how the cleric invoked their diety (the example with a cleric of Torag banging their weapons and armor was a great one), so long as they were invoked.
Particularly in a Silence situation, which led to concern about doing it in such a way that it can't be observed or overheard.
Look to your own great example. Your Cleric isn't naming his god, and he is using bluff and subterfuge, but all that aside- he is invoking a diety and all those beggars know that! The action is demonstrative and public.
Evil gods can be about trickery. I hearken back to Stephen King's The Stand, where Harold Lauder is found dead on the side of the road after choosing to fall in league with Randall Flag (an antichrist analog). He had a little sign pinned to jacket. "I was misled."
The mechanics thread is talking about whether that channeling is so secretive that nobody can notice or tell at all. Like a metamagic spell with no vocal components, or a psionic power. Your example doesn't fit, it's very demonstrative, just very deceptive.
Chew on that and let me know what you think. :-)
Nevermind the commoners...your average soldier/city guard is a 1st level non-elite warrior who probably have 7 hp on average and 12 maximum. A moderate level evil cleric is fuly capable of exterminating an entire squad in a single round without using a single spell. Which I like colorwise, but I still would like to see a rules option for counter turning. Basically, a cleric using the opposing energy activates their turning attempt at the same time and the damage totals are compared. Subtract the lower from the higher and then apply as befits the energy used.
As side note, I would not mind seeing a feat that allowed alterations of the energy to an elemental form if the cleric has chosen that domain. Instead of sending out a burst of positive energy a priest of an earth deity sending out a shockwave of earth doing comparable damage for example. Or for tha matter linking it to other domains besides elemental.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
A sunny day. Children laugh and play. The adults gather and celebrate their good fortunes. Harvest had been good.
No one noticed the stranger enter town. He walked to the center, disturbing none. The figure halts, he utters a dark word to his god. Town folk around him fall to the ground, dead and silence. Dark energy emanates from the figure, crackling the air like static [Channel Energy].
The towns folk look at the figure and bodies silenced. Their celebration and good fortune forgotten. Outrage begins to build within the townsfolk. Foolish courage fueled by fear prompts the less prudent into action, taking up stone and club.
The figure looks around at the gathering mob. Anger and hate fills their hearts. They curse and spit at the figure but none dare advance. The mob is silenced as the figure tilts back his head and laughs. A dreadful laugh. His hood slips back, it does not reveal his face, only his eyes. Those eyes.. those glowing yellow eyes.
The figure stops laughing and gestures speaking two dark words. The bodies of the dead begin to twitch and rise [Quicken Desecrate & Animate Dead]. Panic replaces courage, terror replaces fear. The dead have returned.
Smoke rises from the town. A lone figure walks the road. The children laugh no more.
OK... that sent shivers down my spine.
The whole idea of opposing turning checks would make for some very interesting encounters.
That lovely piece of prose has led me to think about a high-level turning feat for evil clerics. Any creature slain by the evil cleric while using a turning check is animated on the next round as a zombie.
That would make creating armies of undead a bit easier. ;-)
I also like the roleplaying and world-building applications of this new turning ability (both for evil and neutral clerics). It sure makes for an interesting campaign setting.
OK... that sent shivers down my spine.But isn't it cool? :)
Umm... yeah...
I too had noticed, but didn't want to attract your attention!!
But every time I see your avatar I see Burger King. That's much more creepy.Yeah.. Drunken Hobo Burger King. :P
LMAO
*Hic-up* "Sorry about that M'Lord... The patties were dryin' up a bit."
"Would yea care for a cup of fries wit dat?"
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Why, starting hp for commoners is usually 4, if we apply the bonus Hp from pathfinder they'll have around ten, a 3d6 turn is all thats needed, or if they don't get the bonus hp then 1d6 could kill them.
[RULESLAWYER]The average hp for a human commoner is 2. They have a 10 Con, average hp from HD (in this case a d4) and receive no special class bonuses to starting hp (such as those in Pathfinder). It is pretty safe to say an average roll on a d6 kills a bunch of innocent civilians. I love it.[/RULESLAWYER]
Now my clerics will spread the power and glory of Origin!
Wow, I had not thought of that before, but it definitely places a much higher need to find and destroy any evil cult in your area. Or why CE gods are more or less well hidden away from civilized places.
On the other hand, Asamodeous just got a perfect way to rule a city through fear and an Iron hand. Image small groups of Enforcers who's sole job is to make sure you're following the city laws or they'll turn you to death....
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Why, starting hp for commoners is usually 4, if we apply the bonus Hp from pathfinder they'll have around ten, a 3d6 turn is all thats needed, or if they don't get the bonus hp then 1d6 could kill them.[RULESLAWYER]The average hp for a human commoner is 2. They have a 10 Con, average hp from HD (in this case a d4) and receive no special class bonuses to starting hp (such as those in Pathfinder). It is pretty safe to say an average roll on a d6 kills a bunch of innocent civilians. I love it.[/RULESLAWYER]
Now my clerics will spread the power and glory of Origin!
Am I the only DM who allows my NPCs the -10 to die rule?
Am I the only DM who allows my NPCs the -10 to die rule?
I only allow that if the NCP will make the story progress; if not, I'll let um die at 0 hp.
No, I usually do the same, especially if the PCs are trying to save the NPC.
Why, starting hp for commoners is usually 4, if we apply the bonus Hp from pathfinder they'll have around ten, a 3d6 turn is all thats needed, or if they don't get the bonus hp then 1d6 could kill them.
I was under the opinion that:
(a) NPCs usually get average hp, not maximized hp at 1st level (i.e. 2.5 for a commoner).
(b) The bonus hp (racial, flat bonus, whatever) only applied to PCs.
I could be wrong on (b), though; I imagine it'll be elucidated in Alpha 3 in the rules on making NPCs.
However when you go back to the thread that addresses the mechanics, there really was never a problem with how the cleric invoked their diety (the example with a cleric of Torag banging their weapons and armor was a great one), so long as they were invoked.
Particularly in a Silence situation, which led to concern about doing it in such a way that it can't be observed or overheard.
Look to your own great example. Your Cleric isn't naming his god, and he is using bluff and subterfuge, but all that aside- he is invoking a diety and all those beggars know that! The action is demonstrative and public.
I've thought about this quite a bit in the last two days and here is what I came up with:
If the cleric was per RAW 3.5, I would have to say that invoking their god to turn or rebuke undead is a supernatural ability that needs no verbal componant. By presenting your (un)holy symbol and focusing your will, you are giving the undead a glimpse of the energies (positive or negative) that are yours to command, and the undead upon seeing this display are either disintegrated, frightened into running, or compeled to obey you. Personally, I'd never thought about using silence to preserve the undead from a turning attempt, though I don't believe that I would have allowed such an attempt to succeed.
The PF Cleric is a different creature though. He can channel positive/negative energies to much greater effect and either heal or harm those around him. The cleric, no matter his flavor, can now affect the world about him with significant consequences because his ability to effect ONLY UNDEAD has been expanded so greatly. No longer can the good cleric spend a turn attempt to heal his wounded comrads in the midst of combat with gnolls because the gnolls will be likewise healed. No longer can the evil cleric repuke undead within a circle of lesser priests, as that would likely kill all his acolites. In this case, when the ability to turn/rebuke is used to specifically heal or harm something that is NOT undead, I would say that silently presenting your holy symbol is simply not enough. You must be able to invoke your god's will, in some manner, as well. Hopefully the rules will bear this out.
I've thought about this quite a bit in the last two days and here is what I came up with:Good stuff
Great reply!
Hope you don't mind, but I am going to bundle this comment over to the mechanics thread, where maybe a developer will catch sight of it.
Thanks!
Am I the only DM who allows my NPCs the -10 to die rule?
I usually go w/ -10 modified by CON bonus to die (ie 18 Con needs -14, 3CON needs -6 to die).
As to NPCs, they die at -1 (0 is unconscious) unless they have a PC class or are above 1st level of an NPC class.
So the majority of NPCs die at -1 but a very small percentage of them get to linger on a bit more.
Am I the only DM who allows my NPCs the -10 to die rule?
I usually go w/ -10 modified by CON bonus to die (ie 18 Con needs -14, 3CON needs -6 to die).
As to NPCs, they die at -1 (0 is unconscious) unless they have a PC class or are above 1st level of an NPC class.
So the majority of NPCs die at -1 but a very small percentage of them get to linger on a bit more.
I used to make them die at zero.. But not too long ago I jokingly remarked that an NPC was at -7 and reached to remove the mini from the battle mat (because to me he was dead).. and I'll be damned if they didn't rush to stabilize the NPC in order to take him prisoner and interrogate him later. I was only sort of kidding about him being at -7, the NPC really was, but that never used to mean anything to me.
That gave me pause to think a little about the 'NPC Dies At Zero' policy.
I haven't instituted a formal change of rules, but I've been bearing it in mind on a case by case basis depending on the villain.
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Am I the only DM who allows my NPCs the -10 to die rule?
Do not feel alone. I have always interpreted that the "death at -10 rule" applied to everyone. The first real game with a new group of players, they all had a look of absolute horror when hobgoblins started using potions (cure spell) to "raise the dead" (-2 and dying). Oh, and the hobgoblin prisoner who stablized and awoke mid-transport and surrounded by villagers and guards decided the best course of action was to start killing civilians.
After that, my players actually took actions IN COMBAT to coup de grace fallen enemies, even things like manticores.
Now, how this applies to my comments on the evil cleric, I was assuming that once said villagers are unconscious there is little that can be done, as a couple more dice of damage, or a coup de grace, will render them all the way dead.
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No longer can the good cleric spend a turn attempt to heal his wounded comrads in the midst of combat with gnolls because the gnolls will be likewise healed. No longer can the evil cleric repuke undead within a circle of lesser priests, as that would likely kill all his acolites.
There's actually a feat in Pathfinder RPG that lets you selectively target who you effect with Channel Energy, so it's not an issue. I think it should have been a class feature, but don't care. :)
No longer can the good cleric spend a turn attempt to heal his wounded comrads in the midst of combat with gnolls because the gnolls will be likewise healed. No longer can the evil cleric repuke undead within a circle of lesser priests, as that would likely kill all his acolites.There's actually a feat in Pathfinder RPG that lets you selectively target who you effect with Channel Energy, so it's not an issue. I think it should have been a class feature, but don't care. :)
I'm actually glad it's a feat instead of a class ability, especially if that class ability would have bumped out another ability.
With it being a feat you can opt to take it or not.There are clerics on both sides of the coin who would opt out of taking this feat (and not use it if it was a class ability).
Those evil clerics who just don't give a damn if they harm the living around them (Do you feel the power of my master? If you cannot stand in the presence of my master you are not worthy to follow him or me!) or the good clerics of Mercy and Life who feel that it's their duty to heal even those who oppose you.
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The scene I've been envisioning since I read about the (AWESOME) new evil cleric turning ability is a feat that comes from WOtC's Libris Mortis. Its name escapes me at the moment, but if you take it, you are healed by negative energy, and harmed by positive energy. There's another feat you can take to cause undead that you create to burst upon destruction and release a wave of negative energy.
I've set my campaign in Eberron, in the kingdom of Karrnath, which is extremely heavy, undead-wise. The PC's have taken it upon themselves to go all out in trying to destroy undead.
So I've been picturing at least one fight with the main badguy, him releasing negative energy, harming the PC's and healing his undead, one undead getting destroyed here or there, bursting, healing the other undead along with the badguy standing dead center amongst his minions... Meanwhile, the halfling cleric is trying to turn undead with positive bursts, harming the undead and the bad guy, possibly killing off another skeleton, POP! heals the others...
It could get ugly.
- Rebis
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It's also interesting to consider the inverse, the effect that Good cleric's positive energy channeling would have.
First of all, obviously the standard model for churches, with the priest at the front of the congregation, would never develop. It would have to be done theater in the round style, with the priest at the center of a crowd radiating out around from him.
And the highlight of the religious ceremony would not be the sermon, but the channeling. Imagine a 3rd level deacon with a 12 CHA -- likely you could find giys like this all over the place, at least one in every town of 60 or more -- able to Channel Positive Energy once each sermon, delivers three or four sermons a day (morning mass, noon mass, evening mass, night mass), and at each sermon he heals you for 2d6 damage.
For a commoner who labors in the field all day, that means that the daily wear and tear of hard labor, which causes negligible hit point damage is completely healed. No farmer sleeps on an aching back at night, never worrying about those nicks and scrapes getting infected, even a bad accident that leaves you with a sprain or muscle tear is only a few hours of inconvenience. This means that said farmer experiences less stress, less disease, and will have a greatly expanded lifespan. Child deaths will also plumment.
Good priests, and the Good churches, would be CRAZY popular with the commoners. They'd be fanatic in their defense of those churches.
It would go a VERY long way towards explaining why the peasantry is so content and happy with a feudalistic system, and how that system could lead to the sort of general equality and sense of good will that seems pervasive in good-aligned fantasy lands.