| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.*ahem* Close, but no cigar.Are you SURE there's no cigar?
This is why the Paizo Staff is awesome.
|
Why is gay and gender bending now the end all be all of "diversity" ? None are fat, none are dyslexic, none profess unusual religion, nothing ever seams to need or get attention except sexuality/gender. It honestly reminds me a little of the blaxploitation craze. Yet so much other diversity goes ignored. in all walks of life.
Ezren is atheist. In a world where gods obviously exist and give power to people, I'd say that's a pretty "unusual religion"
Did he steal my ninja jammies AGAIN? -.-Ninja'd by Jacobs.Oh man. Now I have this image of him dressed up in ninja jammies and stealthily slipping into houses at night to leave pamphlets on diversity and inclusion behind.
I think it's the most surreal thing I've thought of since Eat Your Own Clone Day.
Must be research for a new board game: Pants-Stealing Ninja Game Designers of Washington? I bet it's so secret he hasn't even let himself know he's doing it.
|
Why is gay and gender bending now the end all be all of "diversity" ? None are fat, none are dyslexic, none profess unusual religion, nothing ever seams to need or get attention except sexuality/gender. It honestly reminds me a little of the blaxploitation craze. Yet so much other diversity goes ignored. in all walks of life.
It's a fair observation.
The purpose of a lot of fiction (science fiction especially) is to hold a mirror up to humanity and present a new view of us enabled by a change of setting. This provokes thought.
I think it fair to say that we have made great strides in the past century in removing some of the entrenched prejudices against women and ethnic minorities. So much so, that I don't often see anyone comment on how odd it is that there are female iconics, or non-white humans (or non-humans) included. Sexuality is the next big unaddressed target, so it's reasonable that authors would focus on that more than the ones that have already been addressed admirably in fiction.
Personally, I like the way that Golarion is shaping up. I like the fact that the authors are throwing in issues that cause controversy. It means that it is doing its job. It is making us think. And talk.
Fat is an issue that is hard to address and needs to be tackled - there are wider issues in fantasy art there. Dyslexic I don't believe has been shown one way or another - there may well be a dyslexic iconic. The 'unusual religion' comment just made me LOL (sorry).
Production Specialist
|
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
Why is gay and gender bending now the end all be all of "diversity" ? None are fat, none are dyslexic, none profess unusual religion, nothing ever seams to need or get attention except sexuality/gender. Yet so much other diversity goes ignored. in all walks of life.
We do offer diversity along the lines of race, religion, body type, and several other factors, but this thread is specifically about sexuality and so those factors aren't being discussed. You're more than welcome to start additional threads to review the inclusion (or need for more inclusion) you see in various Pathfinder products.
For a quick review of variety you desire in our iconics:
Age: Balthazar, Ezren
Body-Type: Damiel (skinny), Harsk (husky, even by dwarf standards), Imrijka (husky/muscular), Merisiel (skinny), Seelah (muscular)
Dyslexia/Learning Difficulties: Rarely appears in artwork
Race: Alhazra (North African), Feiya (Russian), Hayato (Japanese), Imrijka (Central Eurasian), Kyra (Middle Eastern), Reiko (Japanese), Sajan (Indian), Seelah (Central African), Seoni (romani)
Unusual Religion: Difficult because we use fictional religions, but Alahazra (atheist), Ezren (atheist), Kyra (Serenrae), Lini (Green Faith/shamanism)
We've said for some time that there's at least two gay iconics (one male, one female), one bisexual iconic, and one trans iconic.
Wow.. If only I knew these for sure because that might just be perfect for my currently forming group of Newbs...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I have no idea who the actual transexual iconic is, but I do recall that Ezren is the one modeling the Girdle of Opposite Gender.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Why is gay and gender bending now the end all be all of "diversity" ? None are fat
I would imagine that severe obesity in adventurers is probably a selected-against trait.
|
|
Why is gay and gender bending now the end all be all of "diversity" ? None are fatI would imagine that severe obesity in adventurers is probably a selected-against trait.
Who said sever? Being weaker than a child sized halfling would be a selected against trait bit how many casters clock in a whole 6-8 strength?
Who said sever? Being weaker than a child sized halfling would be a selected against trait bit how many casters clock in a whole 6-8 strength?Why is gay and gender bending now the end all be all of "diversity" ? None are fatI would imagine that severe obesity in adventurers is probably a selected-against trait.
I stand by what I said.
|
|
I stand by what I said.Who said sever? Being weaker than a child sized halfling would be a selected against trait bit how many casters clock in a whole 6-8 strength?Why is gay and gender bending now the end all be all of "diversity" ? None are fatI would imagine that severe obesity in adventurers is probably a selected-against trait.
so do I. a chubby guy is more fit to adventure than someone too frail to carry basic survival gear.
Hmm... Is Harsk actually stat'd as weighing more than a Dwarf Ranger could get randomly? Or am I wrong. Because I wanna say somewhere that his Stat Block had such...
On-Topic: What is a good way of working in some of these types of Characters into a campaign that is based on Europe during the Age when this was persecuted?
Yes, my new group chose this type of campaign...
Contributor
|
For all we know, we could have an asexual or celibate iconic.
I'm more curious about hermaphroditic species and characters. Apparently there's a possibility of one showing up.
Of course, Le Guin's Left Hand of Darkness was a childhood favourite of mine. I kinda read above my maturity level, but I can think of few gentler early exposures to alternative sexuality for a kid. I also read Delany and Varley, and they're a little bit more... difficult.
I can see Sajan (that is the Monk Iconic's name right?) being Celibate...
|
Production Specialist
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm more curious about hermaphroditic species and characters. Apparently there's a possibility of one showing up.
With humans (and presumably other sentient creatures), the term is intersexed. And given how common IS conditions are, there's a decent chance one of our iconics is and may not even know it.
|
Contributor
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hmm... Is Harsk actually stat'd as weighing more than a Dwarf Ranger could get randomly? Or am I wrong. Because I wanna say somewhere that his Stat Block had such...
On-Topic: What is a good way of working in some of these types of Characters into a campaign that is based on Europe during the Age when this was persecuted?
Yes, my new group chose this type of campaign...
Homosexuality in medieval Europe:( a paper, focusing on gay men), and a wikipedia article ).
Female homosexuality, as with most of the non-Western world today, was less noticeable and less frowned upon. See here. Penitence rather than prosecution.
Homosexuality (mostly male) did appear in medieval literature, in part because of the male erotic relationships adapted from Greco-Roman literature than became part of the chivalric canon (there were knightly versions of the Siege of Troy and Alexander the Great). As I mentioned before, Galehaut (not to be confused with Galahad) was the unconsummated lover of Lancelot, which may reflect a courtly love tradition considering the prominence of Richard I and his mother Eleanor in developing the Arthurian mythos.
For all we know, we could have an asexual or celibate iconic.
I'm more curious about hermaphroditic species and characters. Apparently there's a possibility of one showing up.
Of course, Le Guin's Left Hand of Darkness was a childhood favourite of mine. I kinda read above my maturity level, but I can think of few gentler early exposures to alternative sexuality for a kid. I also read Delany and Varley, and they're a little bit more... difficult.
Care to go frelking sometime?
I was twelve when I read "Aye, and Gomorrah..." and what didn't go over my head made we want to cry. Delany, a little bit more difficult? Yeesh. At least I didn't read Hogg and The Madman until I was in my twenties. Double yeesh.
So, yeah, every mention of alternative sexuality I've seen in Paizo products has been rather user friendly, if not downright vanilla. (That's a good thing.)
Race: Feiya (Russian)
I thought Feiya was actually Tian/Asian, she was just raised by Hags.
|
Contributor
|
I'm more curious about hermaphroditic species and characters. Apparently there's a possibility of one showing up.With humans (and presumably other sentient creatures), the term is intersexed. And given how common IS conditions are, there's a decent chance one of our iconics is and may not even know it.
I believe it was historically more common for intersexed (thanx for the nomenclature, Crystal!) characters to be forced to conform to female gender culture rather than male, though there's a very famous Vietnamese noble who was intersex.
PS. my dang spellcheck keeps trying to correct intersex as "interest" - which is true, but hey, garbles up the meaning here.
And I feel sorry for the PC going around pulling every persons pants down looking for a hermaphrodite, a bit silly if you ask me.
A show of hands for PCs running around looking for intersexed NPCs? Anyone? No?
[Raises hand]
Alright, there's one!
A show of hands for PCs running around looking for intersexed NPCs? Anyone? No?
[Raises hand]
Alright, there's one!
I hope you find your town of hermaphrodites, lol..may that bring happiness to your campaign.
|
Contributor
|
Well, succubi were gender fluid in medieval legend. They could take either a man's or a woman's shape, but were said to be unable to bear children.
The name has a masculine ending in Latin for a reason.
Angels, also, have an indeterminate gender. They were neuter in all but one occasion in the Greek Bible, and their appearance was androgynous (and often still is) in medieval art.
Hence, we may suspect Aasimar and Teiflings as being particularly appropriate for intersex characteristics.
EDIT: technically this isn't necessarily homosexuality, though perhaps the thread title should be Queer Golarion to accommodate this sort of thing.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What?!?
Now I have to find a whole town of 'em?!?
Do you/we need to be spoon fed this? In a world as diverse and multi-cultural as Golarion, one would imagine the full range of human, and non-human, sexuality is practised. Its up to you to 'flesh' it out.
If I had my druthers, I'd actually rather not see the trans iconic revealed for a while. Knowing a couple trans peep friends and acquaintances both online and in real life, once the T is "out of the bag", it seems to color many others perceptions and invite constant scrutiny -- from harmless-intended curiosity all the way to comments that undermine his/her pre-/post-transition identity -- that cis-gendered (even LGB) individuals don't encounter. "Is she/he 'properly' exhibiting traits and interacting with societal norms/expectations in the 'chosen' gender role? Is post-transition she dressing/acting 'too butch' or too stereotypically fem (and vice-versa for post-transition guys)?"
But IMHOs: 1) Seoni would be too obvious a choice. She actually seems to be so focused on magic that she's almost asexual, although obviously aware of her physical effect on others. 2) Lini and Damiel easily experience much more radical changes regularly, andthey wouldn't seem likely to limit themselves to a single physical sex, using whatever was expedient (and likely incidental) to their alternate forms. 3) Lem certainly would have the skills/training and magic, but it doesn't seem to fit his character, and he's already dealing with being Small in a Medium world. 4) Likewise Amiri blazing her own legend of female-excellence against patriarchy. 4) I'd have considered Feiya, with the strong real world influences of two-spirit and third-gender shamanism (yes, I know she's a witch), but apparently she's eliminated that possibility herself.
If I had to pick: 1) Harsk or Hayamoto - Harsk is already a bit "bearish" and Hayamoto could be riffing on a Mulan vibe. Nuture/societal roles could play a part in physically adopting "traditionally male" roles in their cultures. Bonus, either one as a post-transition male would provide a depiction even rarer than positive post-transition women in fiction. 2) Lirianne, like many pre-transition women, threw herself into military-style discipline and service. Or, that wild magic exposure may have done more to her than just transport her to the Inner Sea. 3) Reiko would be coming from a culture that likely had the Golarion equivalent of onnagata/kabuki theater. And traditional real world Asian culture (until more recently) was rather accepting of gender-variant peeps. Or maybe some infiltration role awoke some buried side of her that she eventually needed to embrace?
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well, succubi were gender fluid in medieval legend. They could take either a man's or a woman's shape, but were said to be unable to bear children.
[succubus tangent]
Adapting that sort of 'stealing a man's seed to knock up a different woman in his form' thing for game use, a succubus could seduce a local goodly person (famous knight, high priest, popular local lordling) and then use his seed to knock up some local fair maidens (while polymorphed into his appearance), creating sex scandals and tainting reputations and not only sullying the various good people she's affected (and / or the organizations they represent, destroying faith in local government / religion / etc.), but also leaving a crop of half-fiends and / or tieflings behind...And if the victims of her crimes go to unusual lengths to cover up such scandals, they might even de-good-ify themselves!
It's a long-term sort of thing, by demonic standards, but with a few hours 'at liberty' after being summoned (perhaps as part of her 'asking price' for whatever service her summoner is seeking), a succubus could do a lot of damage to the forces of good over a generation.
[/succubus tangent]
|
|
Well, succubi were gender fluid in medieval legend. They could take either a man's or a woman's shape, but were said to be unable to bear children.[succubus tangent]
Adapting that sort of 'stealing a man's seed to knock up a different woman in his form' thing for game use, a succubus could seduce a local goodly person (famous knight, high priest, popular local lordling) and then use his seed to knock up some local fair maidens (while polymorphed into his appearance), creating sex scandals and tainting reputations and not only sullying the various good people she's affected (and / or the organizations they represent, destroying faith in local government / religion / etc.), but also leaving a crop of half-fiends and / or tieflings behind...And if the victims of her crimes go to unusual lengths to cover up such scandals, they might even de-good-ify themselves!
It's a long-term sort of thing, by demonic standards, but with a few hours 'at liberty' after being summoned (perhaps as part of her 'asking price' for whatever service her summoner is seeking), a succubus could do a lot of damage to the forces of good over a generation.
[/succubus tangent]
What's more, if a popular tale were to arise of such an exploit, that would lead to the "It wasn't me! It was a succubus!" line of defense for unfaithful spouses.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
What?!?
Now I have to find a whole town of 'em?!?
Indiana Doodlebug and the Town of Middlesex? Yeah, I'd watch it. Anything'd be better than Crystal Skull.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
[succubus tangent][/succubus tangent]What's more, if a popular tale were to arise of such an exploit, that would lead to the "It wasn't me! It was a succubus!" line of defense for unfaithful spouses.
Constant fodder for The Maury PovLich Show
I can't see Harsk being trans, since that gets pretty close to the "Dwarf women have beards" trope, or at least that is how some people might interpret. I don't think Paizo is fond of that trope
Gay yes, trans no
I also suspect Seoni isn't trans, if only because she is the designated cheesecake/fan service character. Might be a bit risky of a move...
Indiana Doodlebug and the Town of Middlesex? Yeah, I'd watch it. Anything'd be better than Crystal Skull.What?!?
Now I have to find a whole town of 'em?!?
Personally, I think it would be sexier if it was Orlando Anklebiter and the Town of Middlesex
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm more curious about hermaphroditic species and characters.
Proteans. Sometimes.
Captain Jack Anklebiter & the Black Pearl if you know what I mean.
@MMCJawa: I actually prefer the other Female Iconics over Seoni... Strangely I prefer Imrijka the most.
Yes, I am kind of odd.
Captain Jack Anklebiter & the Black Pearl Necklace
Now we're talkin'!
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I once played a transvestite gunslinger-- an older man who used disguise to appear as an old lady. Although he was straight at heart, he preferred to wearing his wig, slippers and house frock while firing up the local orcs and goblins. He was fun to play.
"By my pretty FLoral Bonnet, I will end you."
I guess you have to be from Springfield, Missouri, USA to get the reference...
I have always known that Harsk was born a woman. Day-yum that girl knows her disguise skillZ.