For the record, Mengkare isn't anti-gay. In fact, he probably doesn't care about people's sexual habits in the slightest, so long as any *breeding* that's happening serves the eventual goal. Moreover, he's not worried about hand-picking every couple on the island... remember that he only allows people entrance if he thinks they're suitably awesome, so while he might occasionally dabble in direct breeding, I think that for the most part he's content to just put all the Hermeans in one spot, shake the jar, and watch what liaisons develop naturally, most likely guiding things on a generational level. (As a wise old dragon, he appreciates that though he needs to *have* total power, the less he uses it, the better.)
And considering Hermea's reputation as a utopia, I suspect that most *everyone* there is getting some, should they desire it....
It could also be the case with gay and transgender individuals that the theology is that those individuals got a soul intended for an individual of the opposite gender, or alternately, if you're dealing with multiple reincarnations, that they're having bleed-through from a past life where they particularly liked a particular sex and being reincarnated as that sex hasn't changed the desire for that sex.
There's the whole question of if you polymorph or reincarnate a heterosexual male into a female is he now going to be classed as a lesbian, a heterosexual female, or a transgender male?
As for the question of twins and one being evil because they don't have the soul, one of the reasons the evil twin wants to kill the good twin is so that they get the soul, making it an interesting theological question of whether this is murder or just personal surgery.
There's the whole question of if you polymorph or reincarnate a heterosexual male into a female is he now going to be classed as a lesbian, a heterosexual female, or a transgender male?
This happened in a game I was in. A few times. Reincarnate is much cheaper than Raise Dead, you see. And it's a die roll to see what gender you get in addition to what race...
To make a long story funny, when our heterosexual human male got reincarnated into a hot female elf she was definitely still attracted to women. Think of a tired, sweaty elf woman in tight-fitting leather armor jumping into battle only to roll a one on initiative because she's distracted by the sudden thought "Wow... I look hot!"
There's the whole question of if you polymorph or reincarnate a heterosexual male into a female is he now going to be classed as a lesbian, a heterosexual female, or a transgender male?This happened in a game I was in. A few times. Reincarnate is much cheaper than Raise Dead, you see. And it's a die roll to see what gender you get in addition to what race...
To make a long story funny, when our heterosexual human male got reincarnated into a hot female elf she was definitely still attracted to women. Think of a tired, sweaty elf woman in tight-fitting leather armor jumping into battle only to roll a one on initiative because she's distracted by the sudden thought "Wow... I look hot!"
This reminds me of the character "Kerisis" from the 2nd Edition AD&D Rogues Gallery -- a formerly male human fighter who donned one of those dreaded girdles of masculinity/femininity, but still behaved/acted as if she were still male. . .
I'm kinda surprised nobody's mentioned her (him? shim? hir?) yet . . .
Cheers, JohnH / Wanda
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There's a church doctrine that one 'can't dilute the power of God,' which allows one to pour a flask of holy water into a basin of clean water and make all of it holy water, which could be interpreted to suggest that there is no such thing as 'half a soul.' Any fragment of a soul, divided among identical twins, triplets, whatever, counts as a full and complete soul (like a human liver, chop it up, transplant it into a couple of people, and they all end up with full-sized livers, eventually).
In older versions of D&D (or Forgotten Realms at least), that doctrine was explicitly true. One of the major plot points in the Azure Bonds novels is that one of the characters shares half of his soul with a created person (basically a simulacrum/clone). During the novel, she complains that she's a barely-human thing with only half of a soul, and he corrects her: Souls are infinite in size, so breaking off a piece of your soul to share it with another creature doesn't result in two creatures with half a soul each, it results in two creatures with a whole soul each.
Jeremy Puckett
All right, an on-topic question: Homosexuality and Faction Membership. In particular, Hellknights and Eagle Knights. What's their policy ?
"Hellknight armiger" is practically an anagram for "forced sodomy." One would think coming up in those ranks would have all the worst of hazing and English boys' schools rolled up into one. In terms of voluntary romance, I don't see the Hellknights really being all that friendly towards romance of any sort within their rank, it interferes with ruthlessness. They don't seem to have a problem with others, since the Hellknights were merrily helping Queen Ileosa while she was lovin' up Sabine, but maybe the rich and powerful get a pass and they'd flog a random townsperson for the same thing.
I think that Hermea in particular would not be down with homosexuality, at least not as an exclusive sexuality. The great gold dragon Mengkare is conducting a eugenics experiment, and one expects that would be based on heterosexual arranged pairings.
Yeah, you have to be able to perform on cue, but other than that it's probably encouraged. In my campaign, sailors of the Arcadian Ocean refer to anal sex as "Hermean style" because Hermeans go out of their way to NOT have casual reproductive-type sex outside the bounds of the dragon's dictates.
Not to be spoiling anything but there is a homosexual couple in The Stolen Lands AP book too.
The part about a body in the spider's den mentions that the body was male, and that his also male lover died when the stag lord found out about him withholding loot from him.
Not sure if it's worth much of anything or if it had been mentioned but I figured I would throw it out there.
I would think that homosexuality in Golarion is generally spread out like in real world cultures - the Wikipedia "history of homosexuality" section is instructional. I like the stats... 41% of preindiustrial societies didn't like it, 21% liked or at least tolerated it, and 12% "had no concept" of it. The last one is funny, it's like "You mean you can... No one ever thought of that before!" And it varies over time; I thought of Cheliax when reading the part about northern Italy and it being open on one hand but also cracked down on by the law on the other...
I think the main problem from an adventurer's point of view is that as you travel you come across a mess of cultures. So what's fine in one Mwangi tribe isn't going to be fine with the next.
Wikipedia "history of homosexuality" section is instructional. I like the stats... 41% of preindiustrial societies didn't like it, 21% liked or at least tolerated it, and 12% "had no concept" of it. The last one is funny, it's like "You mean you can... No one ever thought of that before!"
You have to be cautious about those kind of figures (especially when found on wikipedia)....for example..
The Romans didn't look favorably on homosexuality, however their definition was that only a "bottom" was a homosexual.....So the Gent raping his slave boy day and night was not referred to as a homosexual ;)
One thing that I find interesting is that most ancient cultures that had a strong "warrior" society, are also very excepting of homosexuality (or at least bi-sexuality).
And I don't buy the "12% had no concept".....I have studied other cultures for over twenty five years, and have yet to see a culture that had no concept of homosexuality.....do they give an example of such a culture ???
Wikipedia "history of homosexuality" section is instructional. I like the stats... 41% of preindiustrial societies didn't like it, 21% liked or at least tolerated it, and 12% "had no concept" of it. The last one is funny, it's like "You mean you can... No one ever thought of that before!"You have to be cautious about those kind of figures (especially when found on wikipedia)....for example..
The Romans didn't look favorably on homosexuality, however their definition was that only a "bottom" was a homosexual.....
So the Gent raping his slave boy day and night was not referred to as a homosexual ;)One thing that I find interesting is that most ancient cultures that had a strong "warrior" society, are also very excepting of homosexuality (or at least bi-sexuality).
And I don't buy the "12% had no concept".....I have studied other cultures for over twenty five years, and have yet to see a culture that had no concept of homosexuality.....do they give an example of such a culture ???
If you've studied other cultures for twenty five years, you also have to admit that the phrase "concept of homosexuality" is loaded with cultural baggage and context.
For example, the modern Argentinian concept of homosexuality is a lot like the ancient Roman one: the guy on the bottom is gay. The guy on top, however, is completely macho straight. And then there's that Maori tribe where the girls are encouraged to do what would be considered lesbian behavior in the west up until the time of their arranged marriages, at which point they have heterosexual sex, and the girls were completely boggled when asked by lesbian anthropologists if they considered themselves straight, gay or bi because those terms didn't compute in their cultural context. There was the sort of sex girls had and the sort of sex women had and that's just the way it was.
Interestingly, when asked which they preferred, the general answer was the sex with the partner who treated them better, whether the answer was "My old girlfriend was much nicer to me" or "My new husband is wonderful! He listens to what I'm saying and actually cares about me."
And the whole concept of sex. You don't have to go much further than "I did not have sexual relations with that woman" to realize that everyone has different definitions of which of the hundreds of listed sexual practices goes on their personal list of "sex" or "foreplay" or "nonsexual behavior."
If you've studied other cultures for twenty five years, you also have to admit that the phrase "concept of homosexuality" is loaded with cultural baggage and context.
Exactly.....concepts of "homosexual" behavior vary widely from culture to culture.
For example, the modern Argentinian concept of homosexuality is a lot like the ancient Roman one: the guy on the bottom is gay. The guy on top, however, is completely macho straight. And then there's that Maori tribe where the girls are encouraged to do what would be considered lesbian behavior in the west up until the time of their arranged marriages, at which point they have heterosexual sex, and the girls were completely boggled when asked by lesbian anthropologists if they considered themselves straight, gay or bi because those terms didn't compute in their cultural context. There was the sort of sex girls had and the sort of sex women had and that's just the way it was.
Well said.....many older cultures simply didn't qualify behaviors as we do.
Most groups make exceptions of story content for the players personal histories/tastes. Why shouldn't the GM get the same break?I'm all for accommodating players' and the GM's preferences. But if the GM is uncomfortable RPing gay romantic/sexual encounters, there are also more options than just having the person play cross-gender. You could have a willing player take over an NPC love interest, or just play campaigns where romance is unlikely for anyone, for example. Talk with your players and see what works best for both of you.
But it also only seems fair/tactful that if you're squeamish about GMing queer sex/romance, you don't still GM graphic hetero sex, you know?
Just curious, Judy. Why?
If I have a player terrified of spiders, I don't use spiders, but I use snakes. If I have a player who's an abuse survivor, I don't put in molested children, but I will put in orphans and child eating monsters.
We've had this come up before. In my last 3.5 game, we had one player with a serious arachniphobia, so we did substitute other monsters for spiders, at least when using counters or figures. (Which led to a funny situation where I'd brought the wrong bag of counters and we ended up with a dreaded Phase-Camel).
In the same group, we also had 4 players who had been raped or molested. So, villains who were inclined to that sort of thing were described and glossed over ("the Overlord subjuctated and abused the peasants") and then there was always a chance to kill them permenantly. The villains actions were never descrbed in detail.
Also, phrases like "we really raped him" or "those orcs completely molested us" were off limits. (Which are phrases in bad taste anyway.)
With 8 players, the game was sometimes just a therapy session with dice rolling and lots of blood. Which is fine. Gaming was sometimes just a way for a bunch of friends to get things off their chest or to just deal with stresses and insults and mean people of the day.
After all that, homosexuality in the game is not much of a problem.
I recently picked up "City of Strangers" (the accessory on the city of Kear Maga), and I found the sections on the Tallow Boys and that race of pair-shackled men rather interesting...
Just as in "real life," it seems that the more unconventional lifestyles exist more openly in places where civilization is "on the fringe," as it were...
Also, I've seen discussion here and there about an NPC named "Miss Feathers" -- where does this character hail from??
Cheers, JohnH / Wanda
* bump *
First I want to say that I honestly appreciate the inclusion of homosexual characters in Pathfinder, Queen Ileosa and Sabina for example, as most RPGs seem to ignore this group completely.
Thanks for the spoiler! I'm finally getting to play this and had no idea.
Also, I've seen discussion here and there about an NPC named "Miss Feathers" -- where does this character hail from??
Cheers, JohnH / Wanda
Miss Feathers hails from Kaer Maga, and I believe appears in Pathfinder Society Scenario #51: The City of Strangers—Part I: The Shadow Gambit (not sure about Part 2).
Heh. It's funny. I just did a search for this topic and read the whole thread yesterday, and here it is getting bumped.
For my Pathfinder Chronicler story submission (which hopefully you'll see on Chronicler soon enough), the Sarenrae ex-paladin protagonist is homosexual. It's not explicitly stated, mind you, but it's there.
I always read that the character's Ulfen roots would not be terribly accepting of his preference, although his Taldorian and Chelaxian roots wouldn't give a toss. I also can't see why Sarenrae would care either (although I can certainly see certain Garundi cultures where Sarenrae is heavily worshipped not being the most accepting.
So, which of the iconics is most likely to produce an 'It gets better' video?
I vote for Ezren and some programmed illusions or sendings.
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I recently picked up "City of Strangers" (the accessory on the city of Kear Maga), and I found the sections on the Tallow Boys and that race of pair-shackled men rather interesting...
The Iridian Fold would make a great disguise for a Summoner who has taken on a bipedal Eidolon. By making it's hide appear armored (since he more or less can choose the appearance), he could have the Eidolon be the armored figure, or by choosing to keep it veiled and appear unarmored, while wearing armor himself (since Summoners can wear light armor, like the studded leather-looking stuff that the Iridian 'bodyguards' wear), he could even take on different roles, at different times, switching around to confuse foes, as this time it's the dude in armor casting the spells, while the one in the veils is the one fighting with blades.
My husband is running a one-shot semi tag along Kingmaker campaign set in Pitax 10 years before the PCs show up in the Stolen Lands in which I play a bard dedicated to Calistria. It is probably the most fun I have ever had with a character, ever. Heavily focused on social bits, right now I've accepted the task of convincing the Erastil following populace of Littletown to lay off the proprietor and staff of the local brothel, which they blame for the general decline in society since the husbands have all slipped away from their wives. Still trying to wrap my head around a bard being considered a priest of Calistria, with my limited healing capabilities, but playing a hyper sexual character with very few defined preferences. Also, it's great to finally get some recognition for high charisma, wowee.
And for the record, the only thing that bothers me about all the wantonness is that people are made to suffer because of their desires. Be it that their wife doesn't satisfy their once a month kink, or the poor guardswoman who prefers the company of females, it's just plain sad that they can't get what they need. Lawful good sometimes is not the best alignment.
So, which of the iconics is most likely to produce an 'It gets better' video?
I vote for Ezren and some programmed illusions or sendings.
The It Gets Better Project is wonderful. I tend to agree with Dan Savage about a lot of things--I actually worked for him briefly when he was the Editor-in-Chief of Seattle's The Stranger--but I think this is far and away the most excellent, important thing he's done. Every kid, queer or otherwise, should see something like this.
And I would hope multiple iconics would make a video, though I'm not sure things ever DID get better for Seltiyel...
I tend to agree with Dan Savage about a lot of things--I actually worked for him briefly when he was the Editor-in-Chief of Seattle's The Stranger--
Out of total thread-jacking curiousity, what's he like in real life?
My wife and I tend to squirrel his podcasts and then run through a lot of them at a time in the car the couple times a year we take a long enough road trip together.
Out of total thread-jacking curiousity, what's he like in real life?My wife and I tend to squirrel his podcasts and then run through a lot of them at a time in the car the couple times a year we take a long enough road trip together.
Nice guy. I didn't get much of a chance to talk to him, since he was exceptionally busy, but he was always friendly and good about giving the new intern a say in staff meetings, which he totally didn't have to. The time I wrote a feature article that was going to be my big debut, and then got scooped by Sean Nelson (of Harvey Danger, who wrote a similar article but was already famous), he apologized, paid me for the piece anyway, and gave me a new assignment. As editors go, you can't get any classier than that. :D
I tend to agree with Dan Savage about a lot of things--I actually worked for him briefly when he was the Editor-in-Chief of Seattle's The Stranger--Out of total thread-jacking curiousity, what's he like in real life?
My wife and I tend to squirrel his podcasts and then run through a lot of them at a time in the car the couple times a year we take a long enough road trip together.
Yeah, I hear Dan's a pretty stand-up guy. The Stranger is full of good folks. Ellen Forney did our wedding invites.
Aaaaaand end threadjack.
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So, which of the iconics is most likely to produce an 'It gets better' video?
I vote for Ezren and some programmed illusions or sendings.
The It Gets Better Project is wonderful. I tend to agree with Dan Savage about a lot of things--I actually worked for him briefly when he was the Editor-in-Chief of Seattle's The Stranger--but I think this is far and away the most excellent, important thing he's done. Every kid, queer or otherwise, should see something like this.
And I would hope multiple iconics would make a video, though I'm not sure things ever DID get better for Seltiyel...
If you're into setting mash-ups. I can imagine Gandalf doing one.
If you're into setting mash-ups. I can imagine Gandalf doing one.
Before I looked at the link I assumed this meant that in some obscure corner of the Simarillion or some other side Tolkien tome I never have or will read it was revealed that Gandalf was gay.
My next thought was: "Holy $&!^, when the LotR nerds screamed at the Harry Potter nerds that Dumbledore was just a rip-off of Gandalf, they were right!"
Alas, no.
Before I looked at the link I assumed this meant that in some obscure corner of the Simarillion or some other side Tolkien tome I never have or will read it was revealed that Gandalf was gay.
He is. But you don't need obscure lore books -- he's pretty "out" about it.
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One question I would have is that while it is fine and dandy to put in different orientations in the game, citing historic reference, what happens when that reference is expounded upon resulting in persecution etc?
So, what happens when a character is either hunted for being different and what happens if a character attempts to hunt the ones different because of their ideals. I can easily see a lot of different alignments fully justifying the murder of homosexual etc NPC's or PC's.
Churches and groups throughout history have afterall effectively lynched those sorts of groups. Seems like a dangerous precedence to bring into a game, imo.
Most churches in Golarion don't carry any homophobic baggage, really. No good organizations are going to go around lynching, and then you have places like Osirion and so forth whose real world analogues really don't cleave to Medieval western European attitudes about sexuality.
Prejudice still exists in Golarion, but overall things really are better concerning sexual and gender politics at least.
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Contributor
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So, what happens when a character is either hunted for being different and what happens if a character attempts to hunt the ones different because of their ideals. I can easily see a lot of different alignments fully justifying the murder of homosexual etc NPC's or PC's.
It's really just your evil individuals who'll be lynching anyone, as that's an unquestionably evil act. And honestly, it's mostly just the Abrahamic religions that make a big deal out of heterosexuality, and that faith doesn't have any real analogue on Golarion. Heck, Green, Egyptian, and Hindu pantheons (which do have some influence on the Golarion scheme) actually have gay and trans gods.
So, what happens when a character is either hunted for being different and what happens if a character attempts to hunt the ones different because of their ideals. I can easily see a lot of different alignments fully justifying the murder of homosexual etc NPC's or PC's.
Ya but I can see a lot of different alignments fully justifying the murder of any group of PCs or NPCs. Name any group and you can find it being discriminated against. Rather than getting in a tizzy about it setting a precedence, just remember that every group gets it. One of the Pathfinder Tales here on paizo starts with the execution of a paladin. Not even the paladins are safe from it.
Most churches in Golarion don't carry any homophobic baggage, really. No good organizations are going to go around lynching, and then you have places like Osirion and so forth whose real world analogues really don't cleave to Medieval western European attitudes about sexuality.
Prejudice still exists in Golarion, but overall things really are better concerning sexual and gender politics at least.
I think it would depend a lot on where you went, honestly, and that includes the temples. Temples of Shelyn would likely be fine with it so long as it went under the subheading of "love in all its forms" and everyone loved each other or at least that it was harmless consensual personal exploration. OTOH, Shelyn would likely be strongly disapproving of arranged marriages (especially those which violate the sexual preferences of the participants), coerced sex, or pretty much anything of that order.
Erastil, Old Deadeye, grandfatherly god of families? One imagines him and by extension his priests finding homosexual sex basically pointless and indistinguishable from celibacy--short of magic, exactly how is that going to lead to children? With realistic plans for child bearing, likely hooking up with some same sex couples of the opposite sex, it would likely be more palatable, but then we're basically talking polyamory, which is a separate issue. Mainly, however, Erastil would be looking at what would make a stable environment for family building. If you can submit a workable kinship pattern, then sure, go for it. Otherwise, don't waste his time.
Lamashtu, albeit evil, would likely be agreeing with her opposite Erastil about sex being for procreation, not just entertainment or "love" which she'd see as just entertainment in a prissy form. However, being the demon queen of fertility, she'd probably find it perfectly fitting to bless same sex unions with children. Ettins with the heads of both parents would suit her sense of how these things work, and would moreover cause a tizzy for Erastil and Shelyn, which would be even better reason to do it.
So, a worshipper of Erastil falls in love with a worshipper of Shelyn, and they fall in love, and may convince priests of either of their faiths or both to bless their unions. They do, being good religions, and all is right with the happy couple except wanting a child. Lamashtu hears their prayers and gives them both ettins with each of their heads. If they're both women, this will just be a problem at birth, and if they're men, it will be a complication well before, requiring at least Caesarians, with an extra bonus prize for having ettins.
Of course then we get into the question of what do the gods of good exactly think about two-headed giants and other members of monstrous races?
The Iridian Fold would make a great disguise for a Summoner who has taken on a bipedal Eidolon. By making it's hide appear armored (since he more or less can choose the appearance), he could have the Eidolon be the armored figure, or by choosing to keep it veiled and appear unarmored, while wearing armor himself (since Summoners can wear light armor, like the studded leather-looking stuff that the Iridian 'bodyguards' wear), he could even take on different roles, at different times, switching around to confuse foes, as this time it's the dude in armor casting the spells, while the one in the veils is the one fighting with blades.
What a great idea! :-D
Cheers, JohnH / Wanda
First I want to say that I honestly appreciate the inclusion of homosexual characters in Pathfinder, Queen Ileosa and Sabina for example, as most RPGs seem to ignore this group completely. However it seems to me that Paizo has fallen into the trap of only making female gay characters. What I would like to see are some gay male characters and transsexuals in Golarion, the women have had their fun, let the boys and anyone in between in on it as well!
Also, I would like to see some information on how these groups are generally treated in the various societies on Golarion (most of what I've seen up til now seems to be quite progressive, but I doubt that is true for the entire world).
From what I've read of the AP there's no proof that Ilosia is homosexual. she might play for both teams or purposely imitates this to get Sabina on her side.
I thought one of the iconics was supposed to be gay. Did he/she ever come out of the closet yet?
I thought one of the iconics was supposed to be gay. Did he/she ever come out of the closet yet?That's what has been said and no they have not outed their Iconic yet. James recently said that just assume they are all bi for now.
How Kinsey of him. :oP
*Re-dotting* (My dots disappeared)
I played through a play-test for 'City of Strangers' at Gen-Con and I fell in love with the 'Ms. Flowers' character. The DM made her rough round the edges but sweet at the core which was great. So much fun!
I have to say that Paizo's acceptance and inclusion is a big part about why I love Pathfinder so much. Thanks for pushing the envelope and generating great content the is inclusive of all of us minority fans out there!
When I DM I try to keep sexuality more fluid. Playing through the Council of Theives campaign I pegged Cheliax as a place where homosexual practices might be viewed as decadant or perhaps even artful, reserved for high-society or those who pandered to nobility.
Robald, the eccentric director of the Nightshade Theatre, is detailed in the DM guide as being interested in women but I had no women in my party so I made him more fluid and had him chancing the handsome young bard in the party. :P
In a place like Kaer Maga homosexuality would be considered a tame or common practice in the face of such outlandish oddities and strange behaviors. I recall the DM describing skeletal and zombie prostitutes for those who favored a cold corpse beneath them.
How about a hemaphroditic race or deity?
I would interpret Cheliax to be very repressive about homosexuality, with the exception of the opera. For example, taking a homosexual lover could be a great scandal... unless that lover was an opera singer, in which case it's a "scandal", but everyone just winks and smiles.
The reason I think Cheliax is opposed to homosexuality is A) the couple in Sandpoint who are disapproving of the gay couple there and B) they oppress tieflings and view them either as products of debauchery or rape/enslavement. Oppressing children who are born out of wedlock or from rape is a very strong indicator that a society oppresses anyone who exhibits much in the way of sexuality, or strays from the "norm".
On the other hand, I can see your interpretation as well, though I would think it would definitely be something that is seen as reserved for nobility. IMO, things like this should be fraught with peril and be heavily punished for those blur any lines of propriety in Cheliax.
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How Kinsey of him. :oPI thought one of the iconics was supposed to be gay. Did he/she ever come out of the closet yet?That's what has been said and no they have not outed their Iconic yet. James recently said that just assume they are all bi for now.
Schrödinger's closet.
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Gnomes would be the mostly likely of all the races to be bi-sexual, for the experiences.
Cheliax seems fairly conservative. Although, the parties of nobles can get *really* wild, if the CoT AP and the letters for the Cheliax faction in society say anything.
Reading this thread from 2008, I was thinking of Miss. Feathers, but by the time I got down here (skipping many pages!), it had already been mentioned.
As for the iconics, I think Merisiel is gay because of a picture I think I remember seeing where valeros jumps in a hot tub with seoni and merisiel is quickly jumping out, grabbing a towel. (No idea where I saw this)
I remember that. I'm pretty sure there was an assassin in the background.
Cheliax faces an odd duality, in that they're openly decadent and revel in things which others consider vices, yet are predisposed towards ferociously judgmental behavior.
As much as I see Cheliax as the victorian nation, I still just can't see them taking the victorian attitude towards sexuality on the whole; some of the necessary elements (inferior treatment of women, traditions in a belief system that vaguely disapproves of pleasure) just aren't there, even though others (stifling sense of propriety, decadent high society) certainly are.
You would see prejudice any time that certain practices become seen as 'foreign traditions', however (anything not traditionally done in Cheliax, or strongly traditionally associated with somewhere else). At that point imperial arrogance kicks in; anything associated with conquered barbaric peoples becomes improper, that the Chel might do the opposite and revel in his/her propriety.
This creates a society with stiff boundaries, where some sexual practices are gratuitously reveled in, while others are seen as scandalous and possibly damaging (and yet, as per Victorian England, also gratuitously reveled in; just with greater discretion). Homosexuality could easily fall under either heading depending on how you cast it.
Schrödinger's closet.How Kinsey of him. :oPI thought one of the iconics was supposed to be gay. Did he/she ever come out of the closet yet?That's what has been said and no they have not outed their Iconic yet. James recently said that just assume they are all bi for now.
I hope no cat was harmed in the typing of your message. :oP
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As for the iconics, I think Merisiel is gay because of a picture I think I remember seeing where valeros jumps in a hot tub with seoni and merisiel is quickly jumping out, grabbing a towel. (No idea where I saw this)
Last thing I heard (at GenCon), one of the Paizo folks implied very strongly that it was Ezren.
Jeremy Puckett
O.o?
Gandalf... Dumbledore... Ezren?
/face palm
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One thing that I find interesting is that most ancient cultures that had a strong "warrior" society, are also very excepting of homosexuality (or at least bi-sexuality).
A culture where the men idealize 'macho' traits, and downplay feminine qualities would most logically result in men who find it easier to relate with, identify with and live with other men. The more they define themselves by a warrior / strength / power ethic, the more respect they have for male traits, the more the various female traits and roles are downplayed / not respected in their society, the more likely it would be that they would find themselves looking down on women, and associating more with other men, who have the sorts of qualities that their society is priming them to respect and admire.
And you end up with the Roman Legion or some of the Greek military orders, where everyone was expected to marry a woman to bear them sons, but left her at home, and spent their recreation time 'with the boys,' since they had nothing in common with the women in their society.
That sort of stuff still goes on today. I'm sure everyone here has at one point or another accused a male friend of 'being whipped' or ribbed a male friend for acting or dressing in a non-manly manner, reinforcing the ridiculous notion that men should only respect the opinions and behaviors of their male friends, and not take their wives and girlfriends seriously, that something is 'wrong' about female-associated qualities or behaviors, or with respecting the opinion of your spouse and behaving in a considerate manner. We are reinforcing ourselves, as males, to act male, and respect male qualities, and denigrate female qualities (and those who show any respect for their female partners) and we wonder why we have so much trouble staying connected with our wives and girlfriends, when most of our male friends are societally sabotaging our attempts to build a life together. Stuff like 'the guy code,' 'what stays in Vegas,' 'bros before ho's,' just codifies the sorts of insane logic that we use, such as not telling a female friend if their boyfriend is cheating on them, because we are supposed to be more loyal to another man than to any woman.
I'm not aware of what goes on on the other side of the fence, if girls sabotage each other's relationships and police each other's gender-associated behaviors as ruthlessly as we men (younger men, particularly) do, but I would not be surprised to find out that's the case for them as well, using mocking, shunning and bullying to reinforce gender-appropriate behavior and attire.