Simple suggestion: Cut favored classes. They were an artifact of the flawed 3.0 multiclassing rules. Since you've removed multiclassing penalties, you should remove favored classes. The "favored class" of a race should be informed by its racial abilities, not by an abitrary benefit.
I am not 100% I agree with you, I mean Favored Class system needs to be worked on but I like having it in the system. The people I play with love the extra HP for playing what they already like to play. I would Almost say give a player 1-3 faovred class options per race.
Example:
Dwarf: Barbarian, Cleric or Fighter
When ever he takes one of these (or any class that requires you be a dwarf to enter it) he gains an additional HP or possibly a skill point. Going against the grain is cool but it is going against the grain for a reason, the greatest heros of your people is not going to be the dwarven sorcerer its the Warrior.
I do not like favored class, the only result is to make the game less various, is not fun, really when everyone plays just the same combo ( dwarf = fighter, elf = wizards and so on).
And more than anything i do not like the hp reward for playing the class, ... is like the xp reward in 2 ed. for class stats ... something i always hated...
Now, i know that everyone will love the opportunity to have stronger p.c. ... but in the end what is really important is keeping the game balanced ... i'm just afraid that pathfinder p.c. will result too stong compared with 3.5 p.c. ... resulting in loss of compatibility with 3.5 material
In general, I agree that the favored class rules need to be discarded or changed.
If I were to change favored classes, then I'd listen to modern psychology and *reward* a PC for taking levels in a favored class rather than penalizing a PC for doing something different.
I would reward PC's for taking levels in their favored class by granting bonus feats at every certain number of levels, say 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th level. You could control munchkin by creating specific lists of feats appropriate for each race, etc, if you so desire.
I believe it's better to reward players who willingly participate in the genre, rather than penalize those who wish to do something unique.
My 2 coppers . . . ;^)
Or you could be really fancy about it, since I do enjoy the flavor of it at least, and go with the racial substitution levels (or since I do not believe thats in the OGL) call them replacement abilities or racial power variations. Adding 3-5 abilities for each race for about 3 classes that can be adjusted toward a racial tinge. So they can be different without being more powerful.
Just some thoughts
I agree here, if it's going to be kept at all, it should be something that adds flavor more than stats. I mean, what with the hit-die inflation, a wizard with 'favored class' (and all humans are getting that bonus for their main class) will be getting 7 hp/ 1d6+1, which is statistically equal to a 'non-favored class' cleric or other d8 hp class.
(but then I'm getting into my disagreement with the hit-die inflation, especially of the wizard... although Sorceror->d6 does makes some sense)
Bonus Skill Points
This is a real simple, solid idea that isn't so good that no one can resist it. However, I would add the stipulation that this bonus skill MUST be used only on class skills of the favored class. That just makes more sense to me.
I think the best way to handle favored class is to grant +2 bonus to in class skills. It's simple and only needs to be done once.
I think favoured classes can be safely ditched, doubly so since multiclassing restrictions are o longer present. I've certainly chucked both of them out of the window wholesale with no ill effects. I don't think it's really nessecary to mechanically prod people into certain class roles. Certainly not as an automatic bonus, anyway.
I guess I can see certain racial feats (or subsitiution levels) pertaining to some class/races, though; never really thought about it before. I might even look at doing if for some of my homebrew rules. Not a bad idea.
I would reward PC's for taking levels in their favored class by granting bonus feats at every certain number of levels, say 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th level. You could control munchkin by creating specific lists of feats appropriate for each race, etc, if you so desire.
No offense, but you do that and you're highly, highly unlikely to see anything But favored class match-ups. I mean, five feats... :)
Or you could be really fancy about it, since I do enjoy the flavor of it at least, and go with the racial substitution levels (or since I do not believe thats in the OGL) call them replacement abilities or racial power variations. Adding 3-5 abilities for each race for about 3 classes that can be adjusted toward a racial tinge. So they can be different without being more powerful.
I like this idea. Keep it small, but fun.
You don't want to make the favored class benefit so great that people feel discouraged from paying non-favored classes, after all.Something like -
Elven Wizards are considered +2 levels for determining familiar abilities.
Gnome Sorcerers, by contrast, could prepare one additional cantrip per day.
Dwarven Fighters double their racial-enmity attack bonuses (stolen from another poster, but I like it).
Halfling Rogues gain the fast stealth talent at 2nd level for free.
Of course, I've said elsewhere that dropping the whole idea would be fine, and I still think that.
-VIC
Like the way it works in the current version of Pathfinder, don't want to see it changed, like the hit point bonus, pretty much all of my players like it, even though many of them are multi classed or not playing the favored class of their race.
I like the idea of favored classes, but I'd like to see the benefit more diversified.
Each class would get an entry such as this:
"Favored Benefit: if [CLASS NAME] is your favored class, you gain [INSERT BENEFIT HERE]".
For instance:
Wizard
Favored Benefit: if wizard is your favored class, you gain one extra spell per day of the highest level you can cast. You also gain +1 to your spell save DCs per 4 levels in wizard.
Rogue
Favored benefit: if rogue is your favored class, you can reroll a Stealth or Thievery check. You can use this reroll once per day for every 4 levels in rogue. You must take the second result, even if it is lower.
Fighter
Favored Benefit: if fighter is your favored class, you can reroll a combat maneuvre check. You can use this reroll once per day for every 4 levels in fighter. You must take the second result, even if it is lower.
And so on, and so forth...
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I like the concept of Favoured Class, but I think every GM, player and campaign has a different idea of which class should be a race's favoured one(s), and the benefit gained doesn't reflect the flavour of either the race OR the class.
I think a mechanic like Racial Substitution Levels (Races of ... series) conveys the flavour, culture and intent of Favoured Class much better, while providing real in-game differences between different races of each class.
Maybe Racial Class feats, that are only available to a particular race of each class, as characters now gain feats at a slightly more accelerated rate.
I just think there are different ways of expressing (or replacing) Favoured Class in a way that appeals to races of any class choice.
Whichever method is used, it should become a system that future sourcebooks can use, so there isn't a proliferation of sub-systems introduced in various sourcebooks all trying to address the same problem, as happened in 3.5.
Rage powers, Rogue talents, Sorcerer bloodlines, Arcane schools and Domains are all good examples of systems added to the CORE so that future sourebooks can add their own culture, background, flavour etc using an already established CORE system.
I agree with the OP -- dropping favored class is the easiest and most efficient way.
Not that I'm opposed to toehr fixes, but they really aren't needed.
What I really would like to see is a decent mechanic to penalize level dipping.
Isn't +2 Dex, +2 Int, elven magic, and weapon familiarity enough incentive for an elf to be a wizard? Isn't +2 Con, slow and steady, greed, hearty, weapon familiarity, hatred, defensive training, stability sufficient incentive for a dwarf to be a fighter? Isn't +2 Dex, +2 Int, +2 to Perception, Acrobatics, and Climb, +4 to Hide, and bonuses to saves sufficient incentive for a halfling to be a rogue?
I would consider Favored Class as an option left to DM Choice with a suggestion of simple and balanced advantages to select with.
This list should be generic, something like:
- 10 Die Favored Class gain 2HP or 1 skill point / level
- 8 Die Favored Class gain 1HP or 2 skill points / level
- 6 Die Favored Class gain 2 skill points or 1 spell / Level
Yes, for me the Barbarian shall go with 10 Die.
And you can add something like: "It is up to DM choice to replace or change this by balanced bonuses of any kind which are fitting their game the best."
And because it's an option, I'm also 100% to cut Favoured Classes in the core mechanisms.
Be creative
I like the idea of gaining an extra skill rank. I am playtesting it now, and so far, works well.
It is easy, adds to the flavor, and can easily be discarded by house rules.
It can be explained that due to the vast store of knowledge on racial classes, it is easier to learn the most efficient way of doing xxxxx.
Or words to that effect.
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I'm not a fan of Favored Class in any implementation (stick or carrot approach). Each race already has attributes and abilities that may make it a better choice for some classes anyway, adding extra skill points or whatever doesn't seem necessary to me to encourage them to go into this class or that.
What I would like to see, later down the road, not in any core book, is a series of Racial Substitution levels or Feats like Elven Spell Tactics or whatever, that might give a player some motivation to make that Elven Wizard or Halfling Rogue.
One is already being penalized enough for trying to make, say, a Gnomish Barbarian, without having to hear that the Half-Orc is *also* getting some extra hit points or bonus skill points, for taking the 'easy choice' of being a Barbarian.
Those are incentive enough to play an elf, a dwarf, and a halfling character respectively. The benefits will be useful to any class they choose to play so its not really an incentive (for me, at least) to play a certain class over another. Maybe I'm just not being shallow enough and looking to be bribed into making certain choices that offer the best incentives.
Elven magic and elven weapon familiarity aren't any benefit at all if you're a straight fighter. Slow and steady isn't much benefit if you can't wear heavy armor. I'm not saying any class is a bad choice for any race, I'm saying there are already enough incentives to choose a "favored class" without spelling it out and giving an arbitrary benefit.
Like I said before, anything they come up with is likely to be easily disregarded or ignored if that better suits your tastes. I'd prefer to see something that can be ignored rather than seeing nothing at all.
OK, but the XP modification was easy to drop, bonus hit points aren't so easy to ignore.
I think by stripping this benefit your going to have problems with backwards compatability.
Favored class only applied to a rule that doesn't exist anymore. As I see it, changing what favored class means has more compatibility issues than dropping it altogether.
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I think Favored Class should work like Occupations in D20 Modern.
You would get to choose 2 or 3 skills that are considered class skills no matter what class you level in and you gain +1 rank to those skills.
You would get a special bonus based off the class, possibly chosen from several options.
The one key advantage to choosing any class as your Favored is when you consider just how many classes there are in 3.5 D&D.
I like the bonus HP for favoured class. It's simple to implement and while it provides a nice little present for taking a favoured class, it's not so good that no one will ever take a non-favoured class. My group has a mixture of favoured and non-favoured classes, and so far everyone has really liked the rule. Those with non-favoured classes don't feel left out in any way.
It's also easy to ignore if groups don't like it.
I don't mind "Favored Classes" really, only the concept of races being pigeon-holed. That is where I see the current mechanic failing.
I think I would prefer that your first class taken, regardless of race, is your "Favored class".
I agree with dumping Favored Class. Let's streamline and simplify things where we can. Here's a perfect opportunity.
I'll second that! Or as a compromise dont actually penalize OR reward characters for following a races FC. Just use it as a tool for if you run into a random NPC of X race they will most likely be one of the FC for that race.
i.e. if you run into a random dwarf NPC while adventuring you can assume that they are PROBABLY a fighter or cleric (if the Alpha 2 list is being remember correctly) but there can be exceptions.
how about max hits points for favored classes at some level??
Despite the fact I seem to be in the minority I actually like favored classes in 3.0 and 3.5, but I have to agree this is a good place to clean up some rules - just dump favored classses. They don't add anything to the game, that I can see, except controversy.
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I like the idea of favored classes, but I'd like to see the benefit more diversified.
Each class would get an entry such as this:
"Favored Benefit: if [CLASS NAME] is your favored class, you gain [INSERT BENEFIT HERE]".
For instance:
Wizard
Favored Benefit: if wizard is your favored class, you gain one extra spell per day of the highest level you can cast. You also gain +1 to your spell save DCs per 4 levels in wizard.Rogue
Favored benefit: if rogue is your favored class, you can reroll a Stealth or Thievery check. You can use this reroll once per day for every 4 levels in rogue. You must take the second result, even if it is lower.Fighter
Favored Benefit: if fighter is your favored class, you can reroll a combat maneuvre check. You can use this reroll once per day for every 4 levels in fighter. You must take the second result, even if it is lower.And so on, and so forth...
I'm in the favor of them, too -- pretty good suggestions, although I think they may be *too* good. I'd suggest extra skill points and HPs, because otherwise you may not want to play, say, non-elven or non-halfling wizards. And I wouldn't want that.
Since the whole point of a favored class was to give a class where levels did not matter for multiclassing penalties, and the multiclassing penalties are gone, then there really doesn't need to be a favored class anymore.
If you want to have races take particular classes, then racial substitutions would probably fill that role better. And as long as the substitution levels weren't mandatory, then backward compatibility isn't broken.
I was going to start a new thread when I found this one going... So a couple cents here:
1) It would be nice a sidebar or note indicating how favored classes would be setting-dependent. Quite a few published campaigns alter the favored classes to suit the flavor of a world (e.g., Ptolus elves are Sorcerers as favored class, not wizards). The classes in the rulebook should be orientational and mostly Golarion-based.
2) The +1 HP benefit is kinda helpful, but is clearly metagaming. XP penalties (or lack thereof) were not so much metagaming: more chances of developing expertise in an area of "natural affinity".
3)I do like favored classes, they give some rationality for the cultural background of PC races and they really make the "odd character" stand out (Dwarven Monk or Half-orc bard in your average fantasy setting).
4) My suggestion would be a "benefit package" to be chosen by players whose PC class is race-favored, either as some training bonus or as some starting items. That seemed to work well IMO with "regional classes" in the 3e FR handbook. E.G.: Elf with favored class gets one to choose from:
(a) Scroll with 3 1st lvl spells
(b) Masterwork Composite Longbow
(c) Bonus feat from the "Elf" list (think Weapon finesse, Spell Focus, Skill Focus in Kn. Arcana; if one extra feat is too much, the list could be reduced to selected Skill Focuses, or just to misc. bonuses)
This would reduce level-dependent benefits, which don't make much sense in a role-playing (not metagaming) sense, but still give players an edge when following the "well-trodden path" for a class. It would also make a bigger difference at earlier levels, which in my opinion is OK, as it is when they are starting when PCs benefit from conventions and traditions. Heroes are exceptional, and, as PCs grow, they should shake off those conventions more and more.
5) This proposal could lead to every player taking a favored class at 1st lvl... well, nothing wrong with that if they're willing to do so. You can have a Dwarf wizard who served in the militia before getting all bookish or an elven cleric who learned the ways of the forest in her tender years before committing herself to religion. That's background and role-playing coherent, and perhaps a richer option than dropping favored classes altogether.
Shawn,
I would not like to return the "gains XX% more XP if ..."
I was not fond of this when it was around in earlier editions
I see one of two options:
1. Remove favored classes
2. Offer a one off benefit at 1st level like a few extra skill points, a few extra hitpoints or a bonus feat.
I hate this stuff.
They are keeping favored classes as a vestige of 3.x DnD and as a way of providing a more "familiar" and compatible system.
All these threads on favored classes and and racial stats are moot. Why is "your" opinion on these issues any better than the ones that Paizo is putting out? They are the ones producing the material so their ideas are what we're going to see.
And since these things can be easily changed and reinvented, just spend time with your GM before the game and ask to have these differences made "at that table" rather than, "at the book."
It's one thing to criticize or offer opinions on the no XP crafting because that changes an entires system of gameplay and some classes and some feats, etc. All the mostly flavorful rules can be changed at a whim. In your game world you can just as easily pretend humans have never existe as you can change their racial qualities. It's that simple. People keep wanting to dogmatize guidelines for a game of IMAGINATION!
Whether you're a 9yr old poster or a 39yr old poster, you should understand this.
I'm really not trying to upset anyone or make anyone feel bad, I just want to let off some steam on this issue and others like it.Thanks, guys.
since i'm sure there are people at paizo reading these boards i figured i would add my support to my fav idea. each class has a fav class bonus and each race has either 2 or 3 fav classes. choose one at 1st level and take your bonus and your done. for those that dont like favored classes and think it should be dropped. do it. you don't need paizo's permission. leave it there for the rest of us. if that sounded anything less than a suggestion in print i apologize, it wasn't meant to be.
3)I do like favored classes, they give some rationality for the cultural background of PC races and they really make the "odd character" stand out (Dwarven Monk or Half-orc bard in your average fantasy setting).
I'm not sure how much +1 hp is going to help separate the "odd" from the "norm".
As for the cultural background of the pc races, look at the elf. This is just using current 3.5. Favored class is wizard. But they are trained in warfare. So, they could be a fighter. They are naturally graceful, so they could favor rogues. They typically live in the forest, so they could favor ranger or druids. They create works of poetry/music/art/etc, so they could be bards. None of these classes become the odd class choice. All of them could be favored classes.
And all of this can change if the dm has a different cultural style for elves. A game I played in had two different cultures for elves. One was a standard elf with wizard as the favored, while the other was a nomadic desert culture that didn't have wizards. Bards were the favored class. 4e even has them leaning towards cleric.
In my opinion, the "odd character" is going to stand out by how the player plays the character against the cultural norm, and that's not really covered by what the favored class rule cover.
This rule just removed a penalty if a certain condition was met in 3e. I'm not sure why we need to turn it into a bonus. I would think that if you wanted a player to take a favored class, then create a racial level substitution that gets the player to want to invest levels in that class, and that should be in line with how the dm chooses to portray the race.
I like the favored class concept, as it helps take some of the sting out of multi-classing. For certain builds it helps, especially if you happen to enforce xp penalties. Which i am sure are often ignored , judging by the 5 class combo's i see floating around out there. And if alot of people make characters above first level i doubt if these are ever enforced.
And as long as the favored class makes sense for the race or campaign in question. Changing them under certain circumstances is not an outrage. Anybody know what the original design intention behind the favored class was?
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Maybe as a concept the Favored Class makes sense.
But think of it this way. Before this modification a Dwarf Ranger 5 wasn't penaltized for not being a racial stereotype, as it makes me feel now. 5hp, at those levels, still mean something. Heck, the 20hp at 20th level also mean something!
I'd prefer to see Favored Class dumped. The racial flavor is within the race itself already, no need to force it!
Simple suggestion: Cut favored classes. They were an artifact of the flawed 3.0 multiclassing rules. Since you've removed multiclassing penalties, you should remove favored classes. The "favored class" of a race should be informed by its racial abilities, not by an abitrary benefit.
I say cut them or do something better than +1 hit point, which is lame and unbalanced. Maybe just add some special class-booster feats or class abilities you can only take if it's your favored class. You can be a hidey rogue, but if you're a hidey favored-class rogue you get hide in plain sight at level whatnot, for example.