Hello all, been out for awhile just wanted to drop two coppers here. Power Attack is fine the way PA has done it, if your players make builds that are completely unrelated to roleplay remind them that this is a roleplaying game and the build should match the character not vice versa.

There is no way to make an unabusable game this game has DMs for a reason.

I think bringing in more racial "Levels" would allow LA to exist but not confuse the game anymore than it already is. I am not going to lie when me and my friends started playing and we say level adjust we didnt figure it out till about 2 years later. Even to this day theres a few things here and there that I am learning about character creation.

My vote is to keep it simple make them levels.

Ive always allowed players to multiply damage for smite and everyone has always let me.

Smiting anyone defeats the fluffy of smiting, I wouldnt change it.

I dont know d6s for paladin just feels better and works pretty well in combat testing. Also you can still multiply it.

I like the concept would go well with an idea we worked on with another thread where we reduced everything to two spell lists (arcane/divine) and every casting class would gain one or the other at a certain rate.

Divine:
Cleric 100% (+1 caster level every level)
Druid 66% (+1 caster level every level but 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18)
Paladin/Ranger 50% (+1 caster level every even level)

Arcane:
Sorcerer 66% (same as druid)
Wizard 100% (same as cleric)

Both:
Bard 50%/50% (+1 divine every odd level, +1 Arcane every even level)

Also DCs for spells are 10 + 1/2 caster level + Ability Modifier + Misc Modifer

This makes casting as simple as it is going to ever get, you only have 2 spell lists, 1 spell slot list, 1 spells known list, and interchangable caster level (ie if you have bard and cleric you can just gain extra divine casting as though it was the same class.)

also completely backwards compatible.

Thing I kinda liked about weapon groups is that this becomes less of a problem being that Moridian favors weapon group (dwarf), now all moridian followers can choose the type of dwarven racial weapon they want or is convient for them. Then followers of Kord have Heavy Blades, and so on and so forth.

Now you get a couple options for your diety's weapon and also dont lose the ability in a pinch when you switch weapons.

Imagen smite evil at level 1, and with a cha of 14:

+2 attack (not bad), +1 damage (useless).

This would remain so until level 3ish, now look at my system.

+2 attack (still fine), +1d6 (1-6 possible damage much better).

This would allow the first level character to be more effective. Looking at smite evil as an ability it is a vastly underpowered attack being it is condidtional (target must be evil) and limited (so many times per day or encounter).

Look at sneak attack its a conditional and unlimited ability which does an additional d6 every other level, which is a metric buttload more then paladins can do verse their favored enemy.

Also dont forget the tactile pleasure of rolling a handful of d6s for damage.

That is the smite I am currently using with my group and its not really different then regular smite ability just seems to transition the levels alittle more smoothly. Also the 20th level banishment ability is complete someone elses idea because I took it from pathfinder and is a great back end ability for smite. Wizards should hang their head in shame for not adding it.

I would like if paladins gained access to something like a domain that could seperate different types of paladins. I dont think paladins should lose spellcasting though. Possible explore avenues such as auras or different types of existing abilities that would allow you to customize your paladin through varient options.

Also we should explore some non-core classes that are similar to a paladin and use what they did correctly to fix paladin (ie knight, marshal, and scout).

Just read roberts paladin which isnt that bad I kinda like what you did with lay on hands but I kinda found the lay on hands still kinda powerful, almost if not more so then a clerics ability to cast.

Well to start I think Paladins should ahve spellcasting but not alot. (less then or equal to 50% of a cleric). It would be nice and fluffy Paladins should have medium will save (similar to scout). I just dont think they would be weak willed characters.

"Now I found something which I thought was intresting:
I'm quite disappointed that one of the more fundamental issues of playing a paladin hasn't been addressed here. Giving the paladin a better ability set is good, but it should not be forgotten that RPG stands for ROLE-PLAYING game, and the paladin class has had more than a share of role-playing related issues.
That "said", I shall elaborate. Many players have complained or argued about how a paladin should be played. The "code of conduct" given in the open game content gives a rigid and slightly obscure set of guidelines that a paladin must follow. In actual gameplay that can unfortunately become a problem of interpretation. The following points should help to iron out what must be done to "update" the paladin's code of conduct for better gameplay.

1. The paladin must respect legitimate authority. Different gods have different ethos, so whether an authority is recognized as legitimate by the paladin must depend on whether the paladin's deity recognizes the authority as legitimate.

2. The paladin must act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth). A god of justice may require his champions to conceal their identities as part of an investigation of evil activities. That requires a considerable amount of lying. Law enforcement is natural for a paladin, being a LAWFUL good divine champion. Undercover work is dishonest yet often necessary to defend the innocent against some of the most evil villains and their wicked schemes.
Use of poison in of itself is not dishonorable. A lawful good god of strategy would probably condone poison use against evil foes if it meant preventing the deaths of those that the paladin is sworn to defend. Some monsters may not even be defeatable without the use of a powerful poison or a powerful artifact. If the poison is easily attained (the essence of a local root perhaps) but the artifact isn't, what is the paladin to do when the giant draconic abberation is less than a day away from decimating a village? Perhaps he should just pray for the intervention of his deity's avatar or temporary superman powers,..........unless his deity is busy at the moment fighting in a battle against an evil deity in another realm. What then?
Using poison to assassinate a political rival is dishonorable. Using poison to kill a high-ranking military commander to stop or delay an evil army's march to give hundreds of defenseless villagers time to evacuate is divine strategy at its finest (A paladin can't be expected to smite the whole army after all, and an evil bad guy can't be expected to accept an open challenge in all due fairness).
And so forth? Those three words can kill the fun of playing with a paladin if the player or game master interprets "honor" in a way that the other people at the table can't stand. More specific rules varying by deity would not only solve this problem but also add flavor to the character and the campaign.

Helping those in need and punishing those who threaten innocents is fine but the method should depend on what the individual deity deems as acceptable. Varying codes by deity will give many players the option to play the paladin they want to play rather than a single rigid archetype.

---On a side note, multi-classing should also always depend on the deity's ethos, as has been done in a certain campaign setting that features a certain two-scimitar wielding dark elf on the cover of more than one of its books..."

The Paladins code, which does need revision I was thinking that we could take the crusaders code (if anyone has seen kingdom of heaven). It does address all the points of being a paladin:

“Be brave and upright that God may love thee; speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death; safeguard the helpless and do no wrong. That is your oath.”

It is simple but it tells everything, a paladin is not and inquisitor and undercover work is left to spies and inquisitors. Paladins should never stoop to that level. Ravages replace poisons in the paladins arsenal. I know I am on the verge of suggesting exalted characters but If you want paladin to be lawful good than why not go all the way. There is a simple understanding paladins should have with all nature, god, and law which is that they will do no wrong. If they do then they are not a paladin, and those that are will always act in good faith.

I could go on but I am sure my point is clear. You cant make the paladin's code a mechanical or a interchangable. It is the good that just is and those that can understand it will follow that path.

I think the templates could be a great improvement. Of course they would be rebalanced so that they can stack with a base race. Also they may not be presented as planetouched but as some varient, this all depends on the voice of the people.

For one I am fine with the template, and I know my group is being this has come up before.

Well a domain would be nice but would you just get the bonus or also the ability to cast the domain spells? I really like the idea of paladin having a small group of spells though.

Are there even domain powers anymore or even domain spells?

My idea for smite:

1. Smite Evil +1d6
5. Smite Evil +2d6 (Magic)
10 Smite Evil +3d6 (Silver)
15 Smite Evil +4d6 (Adamantine)
20 Smite Evil +5d6 (Banishment)

Smite recharges every 5 rounds (feat called quciken smite which lets it recharge faster), and still adds you charisma to attack. If an encounter drags to long you can smite twice in the same one and you can use smite in every encounter but never spam it.

I think Smite should per encounter, with 5 per encounter at 20th. I also think Smite should be measured in d6s which would allow for a decent amount of damage at 1-2 and a fair amount of damage at level 15-20.

Well paladin would be gaining an ability like clerical domains where a god COULD choose your weapon or if you are a paladin not within the bounds of a religion you would just choose your own favored weapon.

Also I think paladin being completely Charisma based spontaneous casters, with an intermediate will save. would handle some of the paladin point spread issue. The drawback is paladins will lose their wisdom which kind of turns them into a duskblade with divine spells. The mechanics would not match the fluff which is the greatest developement mistake anyone can make.

I stand by the incorperation of the half celestial template over the later 10 levels (11-20) in four boasts. I know it throws alot of abilities out there but paladin uses them all show ability stacking shouldnt be a concern. This path also will reinforce the champion of good fluff of the paladin.

When I get home I will check some of the other weapon systems ie weapon of legacy, ancestral relic and the like to see if we can pull something from that. I know the complete divine gives every diety's relic which I think would be a good base for the system.

Well its use depends completely on its ability, IF we are going the path of a static bonus then we need no duration or useage but then we have to consider how powerful a bonus. On the other hand if we stay with the current bonus (+6) I would have to say give it 1 minute per 4 levels (5 at 20) that can be split into minute uses. So 5 minutes means 5 1 minute uses or 2 2minute uses with a 1 minute use and so fourth.

To Heaven's Agent

I like this for the bonded weapon, and maybe some feats related to specific dieties to gain extra abilities. I am not sure what right now but I feel it could use something.

To Valderan

I dont think doubling it is a good idea but maybe feats that improve it. Also there was a lay of hands that replaced removed disease which I like I will have to dig it up and repost it. I think allowing lay on hands to do more would make the ability worth paying attention to.

As for base abilities of Paladins I think they should have a good will save as well or possibly and intermediate save such as scouts battle fortitude. possibly tie this in with the DR /evil into a new ability. Conviction (Ex) At levels *blank x 3* paladin gains +1 to will saves and 1-2/evil DR at 20th level accesion rounds their DR off to an even 5-10/evil.

An issue I see alot is paladin casting and how it should be handled well making it completely Charisma based would free up the paladins wisdom points. Moving also making them spontaneous would make paladins more effective as a warrior allowing them to adapt to changes is battle or enemies.

This is an effort on my part to consolidate the discussion of Paladins. I have been trying to keep up with all the other ideas that have been coming up over the last few days with the release but at this point it has become impossible. So I imagine that Jason and the team are having a hell of a time trying to read this plus everything else. So here we are one properly labled and stated thread for this subject and all contained within.

Non-Issues:
Paladin d8 is a typo, it is d10.

Paladin Alignment, I would like it but i dont see it happening.

Issues:
Auras Should they be switchable? Should they have more or less?

Smite Evil, should it effect chaotic as well? Should it be per encounter/rounds? Should it do so many d6s in place of strait damage?

Special Mount/Weapon of diety, why not both? Should it extend to armors and shields? How much useage should it have?

Paladin Abilities score spread, how do we cure it? Built int half-celestial or saint?

And these are just a few of the factors that need to be dealt with for Paladins.

A lot of people lobbying for alot of different classes are taking about adding points to replace per day, the main issue with this is that it just adds another non-backwards compatible system, and doesnt do anything different then per day uses.

I still stand by per rounds/encounter for abilities. This allows a character have an entire adventure in a single crazy as hell day or play normally for monthes. It is something about 4e I like and they come few and far between.

I would kinda like to see some more bloodline abilities, also to intergate alittle of what warlock did. You have armor pros with light and you can cast in it, you have a medium BAB alittle more hp you dont know alot of spells but you can cast them all day long (or just give them more slots). Sorcerer should get alittle more warmage/warlock "ish".

I have given up on the "templar" idea for paladins being any alignment but they could atleast be any good. for the most part I am pleased with how paladin turned out I think with alittle review and editing this could go well.

An idea me and my friends have been playing around with is taking dragon disciple and building into sorcerer, like lich is built into dread necromancer (god let me not be the only person to buy heros of horror). This concept is very attractive to players being that they can gain an ultimate goal without level adjustment. Well back to the point I was playing around with half-celestial with paladin and half fiend with warlock. Just and idea at the moment very little play time has gone into this (roughly 6 hours) but it seems to flow well.

This helps offset the huge problem of paladin ability scores. Paladins are odd creatures because they need a atleast some str con wis AND cha, not to mention if you want a extra skill thats a 12 int, and wear a breatplate thats a 16 dex (so you can even pass ride checks at low levels). The template takes the standard balanced paladin stats:

14 str (provided you get 28 point buy)
14 dex
14 con
12 int
12 wis
14 cha

Now at level 20 the paladin stats change to this as base

18 str
16 dex (for breatplate or mithiril armors)
18 con
14 int
16 wis (for 4th level paladin spells)
18 cha

You have a floating 5 points from leveling to add which wouldnt do much maybe gain a 23 in one stat or 2 20s and a 19. This template puts the paladin on par with other characters of the warrior type who dont have to sink have their abilities to fuel their abilities (ie fighter and barbarian, range ahs a problem sorta like paladin but less extreme.)

Just a thought.

I must say that the fact I saw alittle of my influence in the game did fill me with joy. Developers that actually work with the players shouldnt be a revolution but it is. I also saw alot other peoples ideas make it and was excited beyond anything wizards has ever offered me. Though they have a smaller group of determined usually vetern players and DMs to work with. Our needs are and ideas tend to be similar since most of us come from experienced gaming groups and most of us do not like the direction 4e has taken.

So paise be paizo, Jason, and his joly man who dare take the path less travelled. *raises his drink in toast*

I am not 100% I agree with you, I mean Favored Class system needs to be worked on but I like having it in the system. The people I play with love the extra HP for playing what they already like to play. I would Almost say give a player 1-3 faovred class options per race.
Example:

Dwarf: Barbarian, Cleric or Fighter

When ever he takes one of these (or any class that requires you be a dwarf to enter it) he gains an additional HP or possibly a skill point. Going against the grain is cool but it is going against the grain for a reason, the greatest heros of your people is not going to be the dwarven sorcerer its the Warrior.

I have been reviewing Jasons work and a wonderful little pattern struck me. Be it by intention or accident he has taken the generic prestiege class for every core base class and added it into the base class. In doing so the following happens:

1: No need for prestiege classes (inside the core concept of the class).
2: You can take a class for 20 levels strait without suffering.
3: Theres a little tasty treat at the end of these classes.

I very much like this, and would recommend taking it as far as possible being that 20 levels of a base class should be stronger then they guy who has 3-5 levels of everything in his field. Here is what I see and would recommend using completely (use all of their abilities).

Rogue: Assassin, which I think is most fitting.
Paladin: Pious Templar, should spread the DR around alittle more and add diety's favored weapon.
Sorcerer: Dragon Disciple and Warlock, I would lower their casting alittle and give them better BAB and HP so there not so much a wizard clone.
Fighter: Has alittle of the old Weapon Master class feel, which I like.
Wizard: Has alot of Specializt Wizard in it, great class to add into the base wizard, I would follow through more though.

So far I like what I see and hope to see some improvements. If anyone has any prestiege classes that are basically base plus extra abilities for the other classes share them. Theres alot of "should be in base" abilities that wizards added to prestiege classes because they couldnt change the players handbook.

XP shouldnt be a commodity, that can be spent or traded, also shouldnt be gain except through the action of PCs. Items shouldnt cost to make or give xp.

What a wonderful gift this morning to see that paladin was out. I sat eagerly at my desk and scanned every word of it. For the most part I like the effort, and I think with some minor tweaks this could be perfect. I am also pleased that some of our ideas from the last "thoughts on paladins" thread got used. Here are things I would like to see fixed in paladin:

1: d8 hp, thank god its a typo I was pretty angery about that one.

2: I would like to see Paladins get some better will save.

3: I would like to see them get talents or "Divine Gifts" Similar to the rogue if only once every three or four levels.

4: Smite 1/day at early levels is too weak and 7/day at high levels can become crazy when your in the right campaign. I am still standing by the recharge time of every 3-10 rounds (suggest 5 for playtesting).

5: Smite damage could be shifted to d6s which are gained 1,5,10,15,20. Which gives paladins a nice 5-30 damage range at level 20, maybe add a feat that increases it by a d6 or two.

6:Also would like to see Smite damage be typed and able to bypass DR as you advance.

7: Dont mind the drop in the number of paladin spells since it seems to be happening to everyone but maybe we could get charisma based cast then? Not really a strong point for me since their a feat that does it already but putting it on the table.

8: Remove Disease should just be dropped in place of an improved lay on hands system where you can spend points to remove penalties/conditions. Also maybe a feat to improve your lay of hands further.

9: Auras, they are looking alright but maybe allow players to choose sets of auras based on their gods, or even relate them to domains. Just would like more options (or even varients options in a sidebar).

10: I like the choice between mount and weapon but maybe at later levels you could gain both? or a feat that allows you to get the other one. Also more clear rules on the weapon and restrict it to diety's favored weapon. Uses should minutes = 1/2 paladin level, must use one minute at a time but can be broken up over the day.

Sorry at work so if my thoughts are alittle broken forgive me. I will have a more inclusive report by saturday since I will have time to playtest with my group.

I will be using this with my group. It simplifies casting since you only have one (or two if you also specialize) DCs to track.

I think charima does this already, its not necessary to break it down for physical appearence. The persons charima as a whole is what matters anyway. ugly people with high charisma are charming, and bueatiful people with low charisma are jerks, this can also go the other way depending on the score.

So I am fine with things as they are, and dont see the need for another score to be tracked.

It threw me off when you said that bluff and deception should be combined because bluff and sense motive are combined to make deception.

You would have to convert maneuvers from tome of battle into combat feats and give the fighter feat options to increase duribility. I think for the most part the pathfinder fighter is good but the feat choices for it need to improve. It might need a few exrat combat only feats to help it gain faster then a rogue (who is only 1 feat behind it). I would say give fighters 5 combat feats and 1 style feat style feats could be a way to unlock more combat feats related to a particular combat style.

You may want to read alittle more friend, alot of this has changed.

I sadly have an intense furniture combat that involved the use of spells.

I was but a wee first level human paragon with his band of first level friends when the DM desided that a bar fight was going to break out. Well my character tries to get his friend clear of the fight but there was a 14th level monk bartender standing between us and the exit. My loyal band of friends made for windows and the back door leaving me (last iniative) to face the monk. The monk went first by trying to throw me which hurt but nothing real (1 damage on a d6 of falling). The monk was approch by drunken orcs who were instantly dispatched. So I did what and paladin in training would do, I grabbed a chair and charged (critical) he stepped up and made a single maneuver against me sending me across the room to the doorway (door did not stop my fall, 6 on a d6) I staggered forward lifting another chair but this time my lovely and smarter magely girlfriend cast some weapon enchancement spell that increased critical and add a d6 to the damage. I then criticalled 4 fold (that is a roll of a 20-20-20-20, and then confimred for 3+2+2+2 times damage.) which KOed the monk. My first level human paragon gain renown (no xp of course). This was not a very good DM, he kinda had a mean streak towards his PCs and game every monster magic items in every slot which somehow vanished when they were defeated among a mess of other problems.

The moral of the story is that a keen chair, saved my life. Improvised weapons with responsible PCs are fine, enchancing them with spells isnt that bad. Oh and luck will sometimes trump crappy DMs.

I like this idea, but it seems like something that should be feat options or something, like the current 'weapon style' feats (but better).

Making them feats and improve/providing more of them is the actual point.

I'd rather that Fighters be allowed to retrain / swap out these sorts of feats more easily. If I've got Weapon Focus (longsword), I don't see any reason why I shouldn't be able to spend some time to switch to Weapon Focus (battleaxe) or something.

One option would be to only allow a 'retrain' when you are slated to get a feat of that type anyway. Example: a 1st level Fighter has Weapon Focus (greatclub) 'cause he was cheap and spent all his starting gold on nice armor. At 2nd level, he's found a sweet Masterwork Longsword, so he retrains to Weapon Focus (longsword) at the same time as he trains to learn his new bonus Fighter feat of Combat Reflexes or whatever.

Retraining is presented in the DMG2 but the idea never really flowed well with me. It felt more real for a fighter to just us a similar weapon with equal effectiveness. It only takes a few moments or a day to get the feel for your +1 longsword even though your trained with a broadsword.

There are a few things that might help Fighters.

Combat Styles: These would be feat trees that improved the way you can use a particular combination of weapons and armors. (ie handaxe and longsword twoweapon fighter, or heavy shield, breastplate, and longspear wielder) This would five fighters (not just by class but also paladins and rangers) more flavor and special moves that they can perform at higher levels. Maybe allow some of these to develope into drains, or moveing abilities. This is also a great way to fold the tome of battle into feats though paizo may not have the rights to it players can house rule this into effect for their own fighters.

Armor and Weapon Groups: This would bunch weapons into things like Weapon Group (Axes) and armors in Armor Group (Leathers). These would imply that similar weapons and armor of slight variation would still use the same bonus that such as weapon focus and armor specialization. Allowing fighters to be more organic.

Damage Increase: An odd and often overlock ability is that where a particualr weapon can deal more base damage then the average. Weapon specialization could increase weapon die size or treat it larger for damage purposes or even just make it deal an extra d6. The fighter will feel better when he can drop a handfull of d6s like everyone else.

These are just a few points to explore.

After the Temple of Elemental Evil the party becomes semi-renown adventures and while trying to do some quest resolution from that campaign two character of the three get thrown into the DWP precon.

Party
Human Paladin 9 (pathfinder compatible varient)
Gnome Wizard 9 (pathfinder version)
Dwarf Fighter 9 (pathfinder version)

Combat was alittle less common and what did happen was fast and gritty. The party is alittle more linked together and even though a player has switched race, this actually made him fit in more with the group. (He was a born-vampire before and the party didnt take kindly to him being one, though accepted it). As a dwarf his role play improved greatly which made the heavy roleplay experience of this precon more enjoyable. Overall it ran pretty smoothly with few complaints among the players.

A few things:
-The Gnome thought int a more fitting bonus.
-Thought that combining some other skills might be needed, fly+climb+swimm = Atheletics(Str), and know(dungeon) into Know(engineering).
-Weapon Groups.
-We played around with the idea of a unified spell list, basically Arcane, Divine Spell lists which all casting classes pull from.

Bards would get 50% arcane, and 50% divine.
Druids get 66% or 100% divine.
Paladins would basically get 50% divine casting.
Rangers get 50% divine.
Sorcerers get 66% or 100% arcane casting.
Wizards would get 100% arcane casting.

50% casting +1 caster level ever odd level.
66% casting +1 caster level except on every third level (ie 3, 6, 9..).
100% casting +1 caster level every level.

Its rough but we are adopting it as a house rule once we work out everything. Also your spell slots should never stop increaseing (4 spells per slot cap) so we are working out new charts for that too. This system is backwards compatible (basically prestiege casting for base classes) and much easier to understand.

-Rogue should have less sneak attack die (5d6 is what the group agreed on).
-A universal leadership and commanding system (you can only control so many HD of creatures at once)
-Wizards bonded item needs work.

A few other things came up cant rechant them at them moment but as they come up or we start useing them I will share them with you. We have alot of loose end to tie up after killing loth but after we get everything sorted out we will be ventureing castle ravenloft (revised for higher level PCs).

I call mine Drunken Ox Dance....

Anywho I like the idea, alittle fix here and there and this would be perfect, mostly id like to see you bleed alittle of the oriental flavor out of it. If you keep it in neutral it wont get shunned from the european setting players. (cause there is always that kid who wants to play the ninja, and thinks he can travel with a band of european mercenaries. Bless is lil wee-a-bo heart.)

Im not saying its a bad setting its just classes should be able to go both ways.

I found the damage curve pretty well balanced so far. Did this group of players have an attack plan, work together, and priortize targets? Also players can get off topic very easily (in my experience) that can lead to all night battles. You could have also just misbalance the encounter.

Any number of things can cause this but I feel the damage to hp curve is pretty good as is and would like to see much change.

I tried to read the post in here but theres too many. If I repeat someone else I am sorry just making sure it got said.

1.) I am very happy with skill points as 3.5.

2.) I would like to see more skills, possibly related to particular archtypes (ie mage warrior and expert).

3.) I like the idea of a skill synergy system but I understand if its dropped do to added complexity.

4.) I would like skills tie into advancement of feats and abilities to make some classes care more about their skills. Example Monk takes Dodge for every 5 ranks he has in Acrobatics he gains another +1 to his Dodge AC bonus vs that one target. This makes certain perquisite feats worth little at first but become an investment that pays off well in the long run.

5.) I wouldnt care if you dropped untrained skills, not that I am for it but I could see the game easier without it.

6.) lastly, balance skill points for the classes. I think you were already doing this again just making sure it gets said.

Good luck and god's speed.

Slime wrote:

I don't think that a rigid linking of energy-elements is necessary, I personally feel it would be limiting. I like to think that sources for energy can vary and cross-over each other. Only Fire energy is strongly tied to Fire element but I think that just about using the same word for thing that aren’t necesseraly the same. Ex.: Lightning could come from the sky (air element) or from a mineral source (earth element).

This I totally agree with. Acid as Earth damage and Cold as Water damage and Lightning as Air damage didn't work for me at all.

Fire is fire, yeah, but the other links were kinda dodgey.

Really? Cause I like lightning for air, lightning is only a side effect of winds rubbing against eachother. Lightning simply comes from wind like acid from earth, cold from water (stretch i know) and fire from... fire.

If everything is dependent on prospective means that there is no absolute truth but "there is no absolute truth" it self would be an absolute truth therefor it is incorrect.

The ending conclusion is that prespective is an illusion and with the use of logic and reason we can deduct a truth from a given subject. The lich loved theory (if you dont mind me moving you up a touch) depends on the assumition that all published material is truth and therefor anything within the game that would be contray through actions of the player must be false because the existance of it would mean changing the world.

Its a thoery of stability really, only things that fit and are intended in the world exist. An ultimate arguement against broken player builds/backgrounds. This is also an unseen and inherent property in the real world because if something existed that would retroactively change the world before this given point we wouldnt be in this world would we so therefor those thing must have not existed. (example if the black death would cause people to become flesh eating monsters at the very least europe would have been wiped out, but it wasnt therefor it did not happen.)Because the potential for something to exist is does not mean that it does exist, atleast in this plane of existance.

I motion to strike sonic from the system. No ne uses it and its concept is on chaky ground anyway, you can just call it all force damage and save the elementalists the headache.

Well make recharge time longer for healing abilities, if turning heals you then you could do it once every 3-6 hours. or once every 24 -2 hours a level mn of 1 hour, by 12th level natural healing really doesnt matter, no matter how hard healing is.

Most combat based abilities would do well to be a recharge times.

I like the ideas here, keep them coming

I wouldnt mind see sonic go. I mean its really rare, force and lightning already kind of cover what the element of air most things in the sonic damage type can be converted to force.

I see Jason hopping around here every once in awhile talking to the people, trying out things. You have to remember he is just one guy, with alot of work to get done and does not have time to entertain every idea. The best we can do is try to present eachother and hopefully the designers with the clearist and most useful info we can muster. Alot of threads are bogged down in off topic conversation or too many ideas agrued for too long.

Let the thread die gather a good summery of what we all learned from it and repost later and we can continue to develope ideas with clear points that will help the team get things done faster. I have seen some ideas that can just be copy/paste into the pdf and done. Thats the stuff we should be working for. Also good test data very important that the idea we spend a month on doesnt blow up in our faces.

I may be alittle presumptuous, but this is what I feel the goal is here.

I was looking over schools and domains and I kinda thought to myself thats alot of per days to track (henestly thought a couple more static bonuses would ease them out) but recharge times do carry benefits.

Recharge times allow a player to get multipule uses out of an ability without spamming it. It also seperates spells from abilities by definition. You set your spells and you recharge your abilities. No to say some abilities cant take 24 hours to recharge but some shouldnt. Turning should be once every so many rounds. This would allow a clerci to get one use per battle or for epic long battles 2 or three uses. On the other hand he cant just use it 5 times in a row and clear all undead. The paladin can smite but then has to hold his own for 5 rounds while he recovers his attack.

This is also a nice way to blend tome of battle into the core. Stances, strikes and boosts become character options for certain classes. Abilities that are fundamentally just like strikes (like smite) can simply become a strike choice and allow the system to be consolidated. As of right now there is too much floating around and you do need to get some of these systems rended down.

Thoughts, comments, opinions?

I must admit this is a good read and gets the mind tingling, if anything, we can agree with that. I agree with both sides reasoning. If a rule would destroy fluff then there is an inate property to the world that rights it (we call them DMs where I am from). There are rules that need to be fixed if only to save the DM the pain of having to constently right the problem.

Lich-Loved could if properly worded be law. Kinda like e=mc^2 but
DM=F(fluff)/(supported by)P(players). There is an ultimate truth hidden in here sort of like a catch all of things that dont make sense. There are a few flaws in arguements from both sides but the point still remains the same, if by its very existance the world wouldnt be as it is then therefor it does not exist. Actually that is is making into Jareds laws of Adventuring.

1. Never take your pants off (yes you can pull down but no further then half way.)
2. ALWAYS carry spare shoes and socks(this has saved lives.)
3. Do not tease the barbarian.
4. Do not sleep with vampires (this has happened in most imagenable ways never ending well.)
5. If you see the Paladin running do try and keep up. (For what is behind him is far worse then any fear effect.)
6. Protect the Cleric (duh).
7. If he wants to go first let him (this is sort of a natural selection law.)
8. NO fires on ships (including but not limited to airships, and seacraft.)
9. Have trapfinding, someone somehow needs to have it for all traps that matter are over 20 DCs.
10. Identify items before wearing them.
11. If by its very existance the world would not be the same (and this is not the plot of the story) then it cannot exist.
12. If you dot know the story behind your character either one will be thrusted apon you or you do not exist (DMs call).
13. There is no law 13, its bad luck.
14. Killing any living thing (this omits undead, constructs, elementals, and creatures with the evil subtype) is an evil act, only incase of self defense is it excusable (DMs call).
15. If it does not understand then therefor not God.

There are more but I dont have my DM notebook with me (at work) but I think you get the point.

Hope this helps you in your adventure.