Eva is new to me, but the more I see, the more I really like her direction. There is an edginess that is unique. Very cool. Consider this a vote for more of her. :)
look at Merisiel
Sold :-)
She's a beauty all right.
Greetings, Daniel
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Personally I want more of the 1/2 page scene pictures we saw from Burnt Offerings, whoever the artist was that did those is awesome.. keep whoever working. :)
I like long "Deedlet" ears on my elves.
I like "Spook" ears on my half-elves.
Merisiel ears are alright.
James.. why not make ear length part of elf subraces?
I find it amusing how everyone blames manga stylisms when they dont like an artistic direction. I find it even more amusing when the particular stylism was copied from previously existing non-japanese sources.
Check out the elves of the origional animated Hobbit movie. Check out almost every pre-1980 illustration of elves/fairies/fey.
Yes, Cloud rolls with a big sword. Ever seen a Zweinhander?
Yes, anime and WoW elves have long ears. Ever seen a lynx compared to a tabby?
I guess I'm getting a bit snarky, and I apologize for it. I just get tired of seeing people lambaste anime and manga stylisms for what they see as "wrong" with things. I wouldn't want Akira Toriyama or Ken Akumatsu doing my Pathfinder Illustrations any more that I want Todd McFarlane or Joe Madurera doing them. But that doesn't mean that the style I want won't contain elements of the styles of those artists.
Personally, I feel that:
Elves should be obviously genetically removed from humans; same goes for orcs. A greyhound and a german shepard and a rottweiler are capable of siring viable young with each other, but they won't ever be mistaken for another in good light.
Half orcs and half elves should be hybrids, containing either blanced "pure" components, or "fused" components. One might have full blooded elves ears but a round human eyes. A half orc might have full orc tusks but a perfectly normal nose. These might be the low charisma examples, visually unsettling due to a "peice-meal" appearance. The "fusion" examples might be the more high charisma, looking more like their own independant race rather than a hodge-podge of their parents.
Dwarves should be boxy and beardy. I can even deal with fuzzy dwarf females. They don't need beards, but you know, real world girls have facial hair; its just fine and often lightly colored, so you don't notice it.
Gnomes should be bobble-headed midgets, and I say that in a good way. I like gnomes as obviously different from human children. I like halflings being harder to tell apart from human children, because thats how I see them infiltrating and stealing in human towns.
Meh, rant done.
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Btw I hate the huge rabbit err elf ears. That picture of the elf ranger chick immediately soured my impression of that npc in Rise of the Runelords. Now I make fun of her to amuse myself. "Maybe she can fly around using those ears and scout the terrain." }: P
Like THIS guy?
Creative Director
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Also: We've settled on our artwork. We've been more or less consistent on the look of the races when we get them illustrated for coming up on a year now. We're not going to be changing their looks until we blow up Golarion and move on to some other planet, and I hope that won't be for a LONG time.
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Yadda yadda I dislike the elf ears too. Tolkien-esque is fine, it's safe and works.
Okay, now that's done and I can contribute. Yes, Eva Widermann's art is practically all I'd ask for. Wayne Reynolds was introduced to me in Eberron books, thus every picture I see done by him, it reminds me of Eberron. Also, his style is very easily recognized.
Maybe give the artists a guide line "even if this is fantasy, give them clothes". ;)
Also: We've settled on our artwork. We've been more or less consistent on the look of the races when we get them illustrated for coming up on a year now. We're not going to be changing their looks until we blow up Golarion and move on to some other planet, and I hope that won't be for a LONG time.
S'okay, James! I can work under a style guide! <nudge, nudge, wink, wink>
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Creative Director
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I'll put in my two cents worth on the art. The anime(ish) elf ears have got to go. Stick with Wayne Reynolds whenever possible.
But... but... look at the cover to Pathfinder 3! Wayne did that one. Merisiel's ears are as long as most of the other elves we've illustrated. If you're still hung up on that picture of Shalelu in Pathfinder 1, or (more likely) the elf in the races lineup we've used a couple of times... My advice is to step back, take a deep breath, and accept the fact that not all of the art we put in our products will be your style.
I have grown to like the ears.And the overall look of pathfinder nice job guys.
I think ear length for elves is fine as long as they behave like ears. Some people have large ears that stick out from the sides of their head a bit and other people have ears that lay a little more flat. As long as all elf ears are not sticking straight perpendicular out the sides (most likely as a decision to just show that they're pointing and elven), it isn't a big deal to me.
Overall, I think Pathfinder so far has had a good variety of styles and artists. Some I've liked, some I haven't liked. But there are enough throughout the spectrum to keep it interesting. There are a few instances where I cringe and a few more where I have to stop and really give a good look to figure out how the artist in question made such a good piece. I'm excited to learn that you can't afford Wayne Reynolds as much anymore, which isn't what the majority of Pathfinder enthusiasts personally think (as far as I know) but I'm excited to see someone else get a crack at the covers.
Just my two cents.
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Creative Director
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I'm excited to learn that you can't afford Wayne Reynolds as much anymore, which isn't what the majority of Pathfinder enthusiasts personally think (as far as I know) but I'm excited to see someone else get a crack at the covers.
While it's true that for Second Darkness Steve Prescott is going to be doing our covers, we'll still be having Wayne doing lots of our covers over on the Chronicles side of things and for several other projects.
And hmm... I worded my last post poorly. I'll go back and clear it up a bit... I only really meant to say that Wayne's more interested in doing cover work than interior work.
Messageboards aren't the right place to be talking about the nitty-gritty business side of things.
Mike McArtor is now my personal hero and demigod. Just wanted to say that.
BTW I like the new dragon designs, but isn't the blue a little plain?
BTW I like the new dragon designs, but isn't the blue a little plain?
I like the new blue much better than the blue in the Monster Manual. Good ridance to that big nose horn monstrousity...
(don't look too closely at our greens, then...)BTW I like the new dragon designs, but isn't the blue a little plain?I like the new blue much better than the blue in the Monster Manual. Good ridance to that big nose horn monstrousity...
D'oh!
well at least the underbite's gone...
I like the artwork except for many of the Seoni images. Yeah, she's eye-candy, but stop overemphasizing her "assets" some of the images look more fit for 'playboy' or 'girls gone wild' than a professionally published RPG module. I'm perfectly fine with some of the chainmail-bikini trend but my puritanical roots cry out n disgust against such images as that found on page 36. Such images are fine and appropriate in a prostitution context (rakshasa and haram for example) but when applied to an "iconic" they're just gratuitous and innapropriate.
They're fake---just look at them. They scream "plastic surgery."
Hook Mountain MassacreMammy GraulWhat's she from?
She's ogre-kin.
I find it amusing how everyone blames manga stylisms when they dont like an artistic direction. I find it even more amusing when the particular stylism was copied from previously existing non-japanese sources.
Check out the elves of the origional animated Hobbit movie. Check out almost every pre-1980 illustration of elves/fairies/fey.
Yes, Cloud rolls with a big sword. Ever seen a Zweinhander?
Yes, anime and WoW elves have long ears. Ever seen a lynx compared to a tabby?I guess I'm getting a bit snarky, and I apologize for it. I just get tired of seeing people lambaste anime and manga stylisms for what they see as "wrong" with things. I wouldn't want Akira Toriyama or Ken Akumatsu doing my Pathfinder Illustrations any more that I want Todd McFarlane or Joe Madurera doing them. But that doesn't mean that the style I want won't contain elements of the styles of those artists.
Personally, I feel that:
Elves should be obviously genetically removed from humans; same goes for orcs. A greyhound and a german shepard and a rottweiler are capable of siring viable young with each other, but they won't ever be mistaken for another in good light.
Half orcs and half elves should be hybrids, containing either blanced "pure" components, or "fused" components. One might have full blooded elves ears but a round human eyes. A half orc might have full orc tusks but a perfectly normal nose. These might be the low charisma examples, visually unsettling due to a "peice-meal" appearance. The "fusion" examples might be the more high charisma, looking more like their own independant race rather than a hodge-podge of their parents.
Dwarves should be boxy and beardy. I can even deal with fuzzy dwarf females. They don't need beards, but you know, real world girls have facial hair; its just fine and often lightly colored, so you don't notice it.
Gnomes should be bobble-headed midgets, and I say that in a good way. I like gnomes as obviously different from human children. I like halflings being harder...
I second all that.
Just out of curiosity for anyone who throws down "anime" as a derogatory art description, exactly how much anime have you seen?
My guess is: Not nearly enough to form an educated opinion about the medium or its wide variety of art styles.
Cookies for Mike.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I find it amusing how everyone blames manga stylisms when they dont like an artistic direction. I find it even more amusing when the particular stylism was copied from previously existing non-japanese sources.
Check out the elves of the origional animated Hobbit movie. Check out almost every pre-1980 illustration of elves/fairies/fey.
Yes, Cloud rolls with a big sword. Ever seen a Zweinhander?
Yes, anime and WoW elves have long ears. Ever seen a lynx compared to a tabby?
Don't forget that the big eyes commonly associated with anime was inspired by Disney.
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Seoni is, and should be, sexy. 14-year-old boys should look at her and pant. That's her role, and it is a valued on in fantasy. I would hate to see her toned down even 1 degree.
We need *other* strong female character in action poses as well, of course. I'd love to see the iconic cleric (page 8) actually fighting, jumping, and adventuring. And, we need a female warrior in plate mail.
P-L-A-T-E M-A-I-L. Not heavy chain. Not a few bits of armor inspired by the movie <i>Heavy Metal</i>. Real, honest-to-Arthur plate mail.
And we need to see her more than once.
Seelah (the iconic paladin) is pretty close. I think it's scale mail statistically speaking, but that's certainly not cheesecake armor she's wearing (you can only see her face because she's got her helm under her arm). Kyra's (the iconic cleric you mentioned) not exactly showing it all, either; the only skin you can see on her is her face and her hands (and a small portion of her arm where the sleeve has fallen back where she's brandishing her holy symbol). Both Seelah and Kyra are obviously female, but neither of them is as, erm, "racky" as Seoni, and both of them look dressed for combat rather than for "bedroom play". Amiri (the iconic barbarian)is less dressed than the other two, but with her wild hair, savage expression and battle scars, she looks much more like "deadly" and less like "sexy" to me. One can credibly believe that she's left her midsection unhampered not to entice male combatants, but to make swinging that enormous sword with her entire body easier(striking with your entire body is a valid, real-world combat technique, too; in a lot of martial arts they teach you to pivot off of your back heel as you punch to increase you punching depth).
Edit: And don't forget the Grey Maidens from PF #8! They're covered head-to-toe in armor, including full-face helms.
More Edit: And the female Hellknights.
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I'll have to agree with the general concensus on the angular manga style art. It is certainly well done, but I cerntainly don't like it. I'd ditch it entirely and go for something more traditional. No "impressionistic" art(pastels, watercolor effects, blurred pics, whatever) either.
I'm in this boat, as well. The art is nice, just not my preferred style and it doesn't inspire me to show it to the players (not that I hide it, but I really feel it's not realistic enough to show what someone looks like). I would really like to see something more realistic, less angular and stylized. The alternative style that someone posted a link to above would be nice (even though that is still a bit comic-y, at least there are no 90 degree angles anywhere).
And add another "blech" vote for big floppy elf ears. I've already fixed that in my own campaign ;)
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Creative Director
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I have a question, actually...
For all the sound and wind blasting about floppy elf ears... can you indicate what illustrations are causing the problems? The only two that come to mind off the top of my head are the illustration of Shalelu in Pathfinder 1 and the elf in the races lineup that first appeared in Pathfinder 3. Both of those were commissioned before we had our "look" for elves all the way dialed in.
Are there other illustrations of elves that are riling the ear-hating crowd up? Is this really an uproar over two illustrations?
NO POINTED MANGA EARS on ELVES!Amen.
Preach it, brotha'.
Wait, are people seriously telling us that Seoni is Too much cheesecake for an RPG product?
That makes no sense to me. Or at least, it is a statement that is without historical precedent. Fantasy has always been covered by nearly naked women. Nearly naked men, too.
-Frank
Well, to be fair, Avalanche Press is (in)famous for those covers.
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Wait, are people seriously telling us that Seoni is Too much cheesecake for an RPG product?
That makes no sense to me. Or at least, it is a statement that is without historical precedent. Fantasy has always been covered by nearly naked women. Nearly naked men, too.
-Frank
Keep the "assets" uncovered! 'Tis historical I say!
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Just out of curiosity for anyone who throws down "anime" as a derogatory art description, exactly how much anime have you seen?
My guess is: Not nearly enough to form an educated opinion about the medium or its wide variety of art styles.
I love anime. I have a lot of it. I have 57 titles on DVD (far more disks since many are 5-10). As much as I love anime, I really do want to encourage what I think of as 'classic' art in Pathfinder. More 2nd edition than 1st edition. This would be pictues like the Elmore cover used for the Races of Ansalon (it was in the 2nd edition PHB - Dragon Slayers and Proud of It).
I really do like art where I feel like there is a story there. Ketih Parkinson has a painting where dwarves are either putting treasure in the ground or taking it out - great piece of art.
One of my favorites was an Elmore (I think) where a woman was in the snow using a bow, while a hecuva erupted from nearby with a giant axe. That was a picture of a strong and attractive woman without recourse to a chainmail bikini or what have you.
The art for races is not what I'd like to see in Pathfinder. I don't like how angular it is, and the appearance of so many random lines. It looks to me that they're going marbled like blue cheese. I think when others refer to the 'anime' style, it is the hair. Since so much anime uses the manga conventions, of which one is a tendency to use 'spiky hair'. The hair could easily fit in Vision of Escaflowne, though the noses would not. The male noses are more detailed than in most anime, but the women's noses (and the male gnome's) are understated, again, as you would frequently find in anime.
So, I think that the criticism that the art looks like something you'd see in anime isn't quite right. But to say that it has strong anime influences seems to be correct. But the art style probably has the biggest single 'feel' of the game. When everyone is looking at the same artwork, the mood that it projects helps reinforce the mood. That's why art direction is so important in movies.
One of the problems with Pathfinder is that you're going to have to use a lot of different artists. I understand that. But I want the style to tend to be as consistent and support the story you want to tell.
Now, I think you've got most of that taken care of. The artwork look has been somewhat more consistent of late, and I haven't seen any more 'Justice Ironbriar' art, which I didn't care much for.
While I'm not asking for you to use the 'masters' either exclusively, or even at all, I would like to see a consistent art style as much as possible - something that depicts people similarly to the last Dragon cover (Elmore of course) - people look 'real', but it also fits the classic 'fantasy' milieu.
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(don't look too closely at our greens, then...)BTW I like the new dragon designs, but isn't the blue a little plain?I like the new blue much better than the blue in the Monster Manual. Good ridance to that big nose horn monstrousity...
So are these artworks of dragons you are all commenting on based on images seen in the GameMastery or Pathfinder AP issues? or what?
I love the look of the white on the cover of the Alpha Rules release.
Robert
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Creative Director
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(don't look too closely at our greens, then...)BTW I like the new dragon designs, but isn't the blue a little plain?I like the new blue much better than the blue in the Monster Manual. Good ridance to that big nose horn monstrousity...So are these artworks of dragons you are all commenting on based on images seen in the GameMastery or Pathfinder AP issues? or what?
I love the look of the white on the cover of the Alpha Rules release.
Robert
Pathfinder #4 had an article about Golarion's dragons, and had pictures of all of their heads.
I like the fact that sexy women can be Pathfinder iconics. Mialee looks like Cher's mutant alien lovechild, and Ember is clearly Dennis Rodman in a bikini top. I like Seoni better. She reminds me a lot of Mai Shiranui from Neo-Geo. Of course there's also a place for artwork featuring other sorts of characters, and I think Pathfinder has a nice mix of looks for characters so far.
Just out of curiosity for anyone who throws down "anime" as a derogatory art description, exactly how much anime have you seen?
My guess is: Not nearly enough to form an educated opinion about the medium or its wide variety of art styles.
Wow. You know it's attitude like this that's giving WotC a bad name in certain circles. In fact, it's damn near enough to make me write off PFRPG as a bad idea and start killing off subscriptions and pre-orders. Care to punch that button one more time, Mr. McArtor? Go ahead, I dare ya. See how fast I take my money elsewhere.
In case Paizo isn't learning from WotC's lesson (you know, the one Paizo is intending to profit from?), let me reiterate: insulting your customer base is not good business practice. You may not agree with them, but calling people who disagree with your taste in illustrative artwork names is truly a new low in marketing.
Personally, I like Paizo's elves having longer ears than typical fantasy-genre elves. It makes them unique to Paizo.
Without long, pointed ears, elves look like skinny humans so the ears need to be emphasized. Similarly, if halflings didn't have large, hairy, feet, they'd just be short humans so the feet need to be emphasized.
Granted, Shalelu's ears were indeed too long but it has already been explained that the early artwork was done before Paizo had settled on a consistent style and look. With that said, hopefully we won't be seeing rabbit/donkey eared elves anymore. They'll still be longer than those of elves in other games/settings but they won't be THAT long.
S'okay, James! I can work under a style guide! <nudge, nudge, wink, wink>
Eric, James, and whoever else.... take the hint. PLEASE!!!!
*holds up a big "Hire Claudio" sign.*
Claudio: If it isn't obvious, I love your work. The stuff you did for Fiery Dragon's "Counter Collections" kicks major amounts of butt!