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Hmm. I can agree that Mike did take a pretty agressive stance with his post, but I kind of like seeing people occasionally stand up and say what they feel.

As far as his post being bad marketing, that depends on whether we consider the messageboards to be a marketing arena. I don't. I consider them a public forum where we can all mingle as equals. Our backgrounds, be they lawyer, doctor, bum, or game designer, all somewhat fade into the background.

Using "anime" as a reference for a sort of art style is just weak description, in my opinion. Its like saying "kung-fu" to describe a martial arts style. Yes, some martial arts are kung-fu. Some are heavily influenced by it. A lot aren't. Kendo is not kung-fu.

Mike wasn't calling anyone a name either. I don't know where Auge got that, but it just isn't in the post. He made a statement of opinion that, to paraphrase, "the average poster using anime as a derogatory term has likely not experienced enough of it to have a fully educated understanding of it as an art genre/medium". Thats a fair assertion to make. I fail to see how he is insulting anyone. Am I insulting Mike if I say that due to his lack of experience with farm work, he can't form an educated opinion on the pros and cons of leaving horses unshod?

Anime is more than Pokemon and Record of Lodoss War. Its Howl's Moving Castle, Colorful, His and Her Circumstances, Soul Eater, One Peice (not the crappy american version), City Hunter, and Lucky Star, and a much longer list than that. Every one of those shows I named is visually distinct from the other.

I hope I didn't just fan a dying coal back to life. But I take issue when someone accuses another person of insulting them when they didn't. If you truly feel you were insulted, then I don't know what to say. Anything that I could, while being honestly helpful advice, could just as easily be misinterpreted as an insult. I made a personal resolution to try and avoid bringing negativity to the boards after a few ill-mannered posts of mine, so I will refrain from anything further.


I'm with ya there bard I saw nothing but mikes opinion and it wasn't insulting but stating a fact. We all know at lest 3/4ths that use the term really does not understand it. That was mikes take not paizos anyhow

Paizo Employee Creative Director

das schwarze Auge wrote:
Mike McArtor wrote:

Just out of curiosity for anyone who throws down "anime" as a derogatory art description, exactly how much anime have you seen?

My guess is: Not nearly enough to form an educated opinion about the medium or its wide variety of art styles.

Wow. You know it's attitude like this that's giving WotC a bad name in certain circles. In fact, it's damn near enough to make me write off PFRPG as a bad idea and start killing off subscriptions and pre-orders. Care to punch that button one more time, Mr. McArtor? Go ahead, I dare ya. See how fast I take my money elsewhere.

In case Paizo isn't learning from WotC's lesson (you know, the one Paizo is intending to profit from?), let me reiterate: insulting your customer base is not good business practice. You may not agree with them, but calling people who disagree with your taste in illustrative artwork names is truly a new low in marketing.

Paizo isn't here to coddle customers, unfortunately. We don't insult our customer base, and I don't think Mike was insulting in his post, simply pointing out the fact that there's a lot more to anime than big eyes, small mouths. He certainly didn't call anyone names. But neither is it cool for us to simply take criticism lying down, especially when we think that the criticism is misplaced or overblown (which, frankly, is the case for elf ear length in Paizo products).

Frankly... I'm pretty proud at how Paizo's handled the customer service issue for the past year-plus, dating back to the cancellation of the magazines. It's been some scary times here, and our customers have been GREAT at supporting us; in large part, I suspect, because we've been taking pains to treat you like real people and fellow gamers rather than paychecks.

That all said, when a customer gets into the "You work for me so you better never disrespect me, but I'll feel free to pick on your creative decisions all I want," scene... well, sometimes tempers and patience here at Paizo can run a little short. Especially when we're pulling 60+ hour work weeks to create these products in the first place.

So, keep this in mind, and try to be a little more understanding. If an art style we're using isn't something you like, by all means let us know. Just try not to be TOO insulted if, at times, we defend the blood and sweat and tears we've been putting into our products by trying to explain and/or justify WHY we go with the choices we go with.


Totally agree Mike

I for one feel like we're part of something bigger and better than just a "company & customers" relationship. There's a definate feeling of community and "buzz" about these boards and the Paizo site in general and I'm sure 99.9% of us feel exactly the same.

And just to throw in my ten pennies worth - I kinda like the depictions of all the races thus far, makes them (and Pathfinder) a little bit more unique than the standard fantasy fare... plus I'm Scottish (we see the long eared wee people in our Lochs and Loanings ALL the time :)

Liberty's Edge

Black Dow wrote:
Totally agree Mike

Total agreement here, myself. If anything, I'm a bit exasperated about the topic and the continued, and usually misinformed, anime-bashing.

Liberty's Edge

Claudio Pozas wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Also: We've settled on our artwork. We've been more or less consistent on the look of the races when we get them illustrated for coming up on a year now. We're not going to be changing their looks until we blow up Golarion and move on to some other planet, and I hope that won't be for a LONG time.
S'okay, James! I can work under a style guide! <nudge, nudge, wink, wink>

So, Mr. Pozas... When do we get to see your interpretations of the Pathfinder iconics? *hint hint*

Liberty's Edge

James Jacobs wrote:

Pathfinder #4 had an article about Golarion's dragons, and had pictures of all of their heads.

Ah, thank you, James. I have that issue of course - but I haven't actually read it yet - as there may be another in my circle that is considering running that - and I don't want to know any spoilers.

I will thumb through briefly now, though and look for the pictures. I do love dragons! ;-)

Robert


The Halflings have big, hairy feet. 'Nuff said.


Azzy wrote:
Claudio Pozas wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Also: We've settled on our artwork. We've been more or less consistent on the look of the races when we get them illustrated for coming up on a year now. We're not going to be changing their looks until we blow up Golarion and move on to some other planet, and I hope that won't be for a LONG time.
S'okay, James! I can work under a style guide! <nudge, nudge, wink, wink>
So, Mr. Pozas... When do we get to see your interpretations of the Pathfinder iconics? *hint hint*

As soon as I finish something I'm doing. <wink, wink>


Sweet!

Liberty's Edge

Claudio Pozas wrote:
Azzy wrote:
So, Mr. Pozas... When do we get to see your interpretations of the Pathfinder iconics? *hint hint*
As soon as I finish something I'm doing. <wink, wink>

Cool. I'm looking forward to it. :)


I just read through this message thread. I have stated before that I am a graphic artist by trade. In fact, I am a manger of a creative department of 5 artists plus myself. There is a huge range of styles between us. One of the things that makes our department strong is the variety of looks that we create. There is an old adage that goes "variety is the spice of life". There is another one that goes, "he who cannot do criticizes".

While I do not like all of the art that I see in the massive amount of Paizo products that have been published to date, I certain know that no one person could crank out that much art in such a short time.

Overall, the quality of the work is superlative. We could see the quality go back to the old 70's artwork we used to get from gaming products. I would note that I was always a fan of Jeff Dee, however - a comic book weakness, I guess. I may not like the long, floppy ears and huge, razor sharp teeth (wait, that was something else), but we should never bash on a company that seems to take genuine pleasure in present the consumer with the highest quality product possible.

It is incredibly rare to see a company that is as committed to excellence as Paizo seems to be. I am really working on an oak forest with all of these old chestnuts but, "you cannot please all of the people all of the time". At least Paizo sees its customer base as real people and not just numbers. I know I am a freeman. Be seeing you.

PS: I am writing this after a very long day and if I misspelled anything or made any gramatical errors, feel free to criticize. I do not give a fat rat's @$$.


James Jacobs wrote:

I have a question, actually...

For all the sound and wind blasting about floppy elf ears... can you indicate what illustrations are causing the problems? The only two that come to mind off the top of my head are the illustration of Shalelu in Pathfinder 1 and the elf in the races lineup that first appeared in Pathfinder 3. Both of those were commissioned before we had our "look" for elves all the way dialed in.

Are there other illustrations of elves that are riling the ear-hating crowd up? Is this really an uproar over two illustrations?

Just to answer your question, for me it's only the racial line-up, and since I guess that the final product will have new art produced for it, I don't mind that much. The other illustrations of "long-ears" ;D are perfectly fine with me. One glance at my old "Elfquest" collection clears that up nicely. :)

The thing is, the elf in that line-up didn't simply have "long ears", he had the kind of long ears that you see VERY often in fantasy anime/manga on elves, the kind Deedlit of Lodoss War fame had, only a bit more angular. Very long ears, at a flat angle to the skull, often not really pointy but more like wedges...I think you get what I mean.

Point being, I like long, points ears on elves, as long as they don't look like mecha-antennae, steering fins for in-flight maneuvers, or extra paddles. ;)


I'm a dinosaur. It's pretty well-known by now that I really dislike the huge donkey ears, the "arms race" of ever-more-gigantic weapons, the random spikes everywhere, etc. It all looks like Manga to me, and, no, I'm not an expert, and no, I don't read the stuff -- and if to a comics connoisseur it looks more like some obscure Korean form I've never heard of, well, OK, I'm willing to concede the point, but I still don't like it much.

But none of that matters, really. I absolutely love the work that the adventure writers do, and I love the fact that Mssrs. Jacobs & co. can edit and produce the stuff as fast as they do, and I like enough of the art (especially the GameMastery modules art) that I can handle the rest. And, judging from these threads, lots of people like donkey-eared elves and 260-pound warhammers, or whatever. If that's what it takes for Paizo to sell adventure paths, well, so be it!


Kirth Gersen wrote:

I'm a dinosaur. It's pretty well-known by now that I really dislike the huge donkey ears, the "arms race" of ever-more-gigantic weapons, the random spikes everywhere, etc. It all looks like Manga to me, and, no, I'm not an expert, and no, I don't read the stuff -- and if to a comics connoisseur it looks more like some obscure Korean form I've never heard of, well, OK, I'm willing to concede the point, but I still don't like it much.

But none of that matters, really. I absolutely love the work that the adventure writers do, and I love the fact that Mssrs. Jacobs & co. can edit and produce the stuff as fast as they do, and I like enough of the art (especially the GameMastery modules art) that I can handle the rest. And, judging from these threads, lots of people like donkey-eared elves and 260-pound warhammers, or whatever. If that's what it takes for Paizo to sell adventure paths, well, so be it!

You know, for this show of tolerance and sufferance for the sake of good adventures and great products, you got a tad more of my respect as a fellow roleplaying gamer. :)

Scarab Sages

Kirth Gersen wrote:

I'm a dinosaur. It's pretty well-known by now that I really dislike the huge donkey ears, the "arms race" of ever-more-gigantic weapons, the random spikes everywhere, etc. It all looks like Manga to me, and, no, I'm not an expert, and no, I don't read the stuff -- and if to a comics connoisseur it looks more like some obscure Korean form I've never heard of, well, OK, I'm willing to concede the point, but I still don't like it much.

But none of that matters, really. I absolutely love the work that the adventure writers do, and I love the fact that Mssrs. Jacobs & co. can edit and produce the stuff as fast as they do, and I like enough of the art (especially the GameMastery modules art) that I can handle the rest. And, judging from these threads, lots of people like donkey-eared elves and 260-pound warhammers, or whatever. If that's what it takes for Paizo to sell adventure paths, well, so be it!

I'm with you there. I said in my post that the art is good, just not to my taste. That doesn't mean I expected them to change it just for me. :) However, it's a time for feedback, and I hope that, if the feedback is provided in a constructive way, it can be considered if enough people have the same feedback to provide. I'm certainly not going to stop supporting Pathfinder just because an elf picture has 16" long ears and carries a sword that is both wider and longer than her in one hand... but don't expect me to enjoy the art in that case, either (again, I understand that doesn't matter in the long run - heck, I'm often annoyed when people use "the art is terrific!" to describe how good a new book is). I can find other pictures that do suit my tastes to represent them to the players.

Keep up the good work, Paizonians. :)


Geron Raveneye wrote:
You know, for this show of tolerance and sufferance for the sake of good adventures and great products, you got a tad more of my respect as a fellow roleplaying gamer. :)

Thanks, Geron. I'm finding it's a growing phenomenon in the 21st century USA that people equate "tolerance" with "lack of values." I sort of always thought the opposite. Glad to find there's someone who agrees with me on that, and of course who agrees with what consitutes quality game products!

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Ears vote:

I love all the energy going into creating adventures and all of that too, but what does that have to do with the artwork?

There is no reason that the artwork shouldn't be up for critisism and changing. It is as changable as the artistic compilation of words we are giving feedback on, isn't it?

Why do people act as if a critisism of the artwork somehow also rips the entire effort?

Also, people do not need to be experts on history of art, anime, or manga to tell you what looks good and bad to them. There is not some hidden progression of artistic styles that makes something look good now when it wouldn't have before.
There is not an education level required to critisize.
People who can't scratch an x on paper or make any art whatsoever are still able and qualified to judge art's appeal.

I like and am inspired by art that brings me to the fantasy setting and helps me imagine the characters involved. Art is key to this. Let a young newbie player pic a race or class and they could care less what features they have, they comb through the book looking for pictures that inspire them. Where I work, I've introduced D&D to about 10 to 20 students (on average) ages 10 to 14 every year. This is what I see. They only pick based on ability after playing awhile.

My vote on the artwork only is:

Long elven ears -- Horrible, hard to imagine, and wouldn't want to think of my or any elven character looking like that. Actually makes me not want to play an elf. Makes me want to remove all that artwork before showing the Pathfinder game to others. When I'm letting students pick races in a pathfinder game, I'll whip out the PHB and use those pictures.

Huge weapons -- Don't like weapons that would be unusable in real life unless they were made of foam. Again, the pics in the PHB are awesome. Kids can't stop looking at them.

On the positive side:
Bikini chainmail: Haven't seen any of this in the artwork yet and am loving it! Fully plate that femail warrior! Yes yes yes and finally! Sigh. The girls should have the same functional armor as the guys. Lidda in her leather in the PHB! The elven-chained female in the DMG! This is the good stuff and Pathfinder is following that model (so far). Let the sorceress dress light.

-- Deemshy


There was a very good "Find the anime influence" thread on ENworld...

I and all people I spoke personally about it liked it, too.
(There is still the problem with WR's feet, but when I see the rest of the atrwork, what the heck)

Just one more thing about anime: look at "lone wolf with cub" and "pokemon" and say this is the same...

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