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Then to clarify -
Please explain what would happen in the following example:
I create a fighter with an Intelligence of 8. I get 1 skill point. Multiplying by 4 at 1st level I put my 4 skill points into Tumble (cross-class). Because I am a stupid, I make rogue my 2nd level choice. Now with 7 skill points, I put them all into search and diable device.
Tumble is now a class skill for me (since I have a rogue level) but I purchased the ranks as cross-class skills. Would my bonus be 1d20+4 (ranks) + ability mod, or 1d20 +2 (half ranks) +ability mod?
Would it change if at 3rd level I took another level of rogue and put another skill point into tumble?
To my mind the math isn't really any easier (spending two points to buy 1 rank or spending 1 point to buy one rank but then dividing by two). And keeping track of which skills are class and cross-class can be a pain - especially when they change...
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At first level you pick a number of skills equal to the table 5.1: First Level Skill Choices.
You got Character level+3 (4) ranks for all those skills (or you can also houserule to distribute 4x number of skills in ranks if you wish as in the current 3.5 OGL rules).
After that you gain a number of skills points equal to the number of skill in table 5.1: First Level Skill Choices. You can distribute them as you wish (and can decide to maximize them if you want to keep it simple).
To create high-level character, it's pretty simple... you only have to add the total number of skills pts gain at each level and distribute them as you wish up to (Character level+3) ranks.
And if you want to keep the notion of class vs cross-class skills, you can simply add a class bonus (+2) to all your Class-Skills. This bonus is a simple incitative to choose appropriate skills for your class and roles. In fact, this bonus replace the synergy bonus you could have gain with 3.5 OGL (and it's a lot simpler to remember).
I like cross-class skills but I'm coming to see the above as a good compromise that cuts down on a lot of number-work. I suggested something similar somewhere (... so many threads ... dizzy ...).
I really do believe that the solution lies in fixing the 3.5/OGL skill system, not coming up with a new one. The Pathfinder system would be fine for a new game, but this isn't supposed to be a new game. Pathfinder is supposed to be a refuge for the folk who are more or less happy with 3.5 and don't want to change, much. If we/they wanted a new game, they'd play 4.0. Fix the old system, don't invent a new one.
1) Consolidate the skills list.
2) Make increases in skill points due to Int. increases retroactive.
3) Drop skill synergies.
4) Drop the class/cross-class skill distinction [no more 2 points = 1 rank, no more max rank = (level+3)/2], but offer some incentive (+2) for characters who take skills appropriate for their class, and let them keep these bonuses even when they multi-class to something else.
5) Keep ranks capped at level+3 unless you want characters who supermax their skills by putting everything into one skill. A feat like Skill Mastery could bypass this cap by +3, and Improved Skill Mastery by another +3, so you could create a one-skill genius, but it would cost you several feats.
6) Maybe increase the number of skill points for everyone by 2 (although this may be unnecessary with the consolidated skills, plus little changes like this can be house-ruled without effecting the core system)
Changes like these fix the problems with 3.5 and make it a whole lot easier to stat-up monsters and high-level NPCs without moving too far from the current rule set. They are all you need to fix the system.
BTW, I think the idea of doing away with x4 skill points at 1st level in favor of a slightly faster point gain at higher levels is interesting. It would help alleviate some problems that come with multi-classing, like you always start with rogue to get that juicy 1st-level point bonus and then head to fighter. For story purposes, I've sometimes wanted to start PCs in NPCs classes like commoner and expert and then have them move to the heroic classes, but I could never justify either the sacrifice of 1st-level skill points if I followed the RAW or the sudden burst of points at 2nd level if gave them the x4 when they started with heroic classes. Getting rid of the x4 altogether would further simplify the skill point system.
Edit - Hey, it just occurred to me that no class/cross-class skills, coupled with getting rid of x4 at 1st level, seems to make allowing characters to roll over unused points unnecessary. There would be no difference the points you get from any class at any level so you would have, in effect, a bank of points to build high-level NPCs; X levels of rogue contribute so many points, Y levels of wizard contribute so many more, etc. The only class differences would be the bonuses from #4 above, but those aren't "points" and they are added later anyway. Wow. I like that no x4 at 1st level has that effect. I'm going to officially add it to my list.
7) Eliminate the x4 skill points at 1st level in favor of a slightly faster progression overall.
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I am curious about something. Everyone that wants to keep skill points, is this just from a players perspective? I have not seen many mention anything (I know there are some) about skill points from a GM perspective. Also I do not buy these GM's who say it is easy to stat NPC's and monsters with skill points in 3.5. You have professional designers who think it is a pain (I do too even though I am not a designer), so I do not think you are going help your argument to have a blanket skill points are good attitude. I personally, don't know if Jason does, but I assume he does, want to hear more about simplfying things from a GM perspective while keeping the "wonderful" skill points method for the players. How does one keep it "balanced" and "backwards compatible". Mabye more people should latch onto option 3.
I, for one, hate skill points as both a player and as a GM.
In my experience, most players don't enjoy character creation. They enjoying playing characters, not creating them. As such, dealing with skill points is a royal pain. Even the few players I've met who genuinely enjoyed character creation found skill point allocation to be the most boring/tedious part of the process.
Building a new character using my alternate skills system (see previous page):
Quillan Oakwood
Elf Fighter 2/Mage 3
Str 14, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 12
Skill pts total = (2 for class +3 for intelligence) *4 at first level + (2 for class +3 for intelligence) for each other level (since fighter and Wizard both gain 2 skills pts per level). For a great total of 40 skills pts to distribute as I wish , with a maximum rank of 8 (level +3 ):
Appraise 4 (+9)*
Climb 2 (+6)*
Diplomacy 2 (+3)
Knowledge (Arcana) 8 (+13)*
Knowledge (Dungeoneering) 4 (+9)*
Perception 4 (+4)
Ride 4 (+9)*
Spellcraft 8 (+13)*
Stealth 2 (+5)
Survival 2 (+4)*
* Include +2 Class Skill bonus
Another alternative is to use Epic Meepo solution for cross-class skill instead (1/2 rank for cross-class skills and no bonus for Class Skills):
Appraise 4 (+7)
Climb 2 (+4)
Diplomacy 2 (+2)*
Knowledge (Arcana) 8 (+10)
Knowledge (Dungeoneering) 4 (+7)
Perception 4 (+2)*
Ride 4 (+7)
Spellcraft 8 (+9)
Stealth 2 (+4)*
Survival 2 (+2)
* cross-class skills
But I think I prefer the +2 bonus for Class Skill as it will give character more skills points overall and it's little easier to calculate.
I think the only thing that seem complex with either system is to add the toal of skills pts for all level... For the rest, it's pretty simple as you don't need to distribute the skill for each level individually as in the 3.5 OGL.
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To my mind the math isn't really any easier (spending two points to buy 1 rank or spending 1 point to buy one rank but then dividing by two). And keeping track of which skills are class and cross-class can be a pain - especially when they change...The math is almost exactly the same. The only real difference is that a rank in any skill always costs only one skill point, and ranks are sometimes only worth a +1/2 bonus....
I take it back - this is easier. It is much faster to assign the skill points for high level characters since you don't need to worry about whether it was a class or cross-class when you bought it.
It certainly makes buying cross-class skills more attractive, knowing that your bonus will increase when you take the appropriate level.
How about this:* Take 3.5 system. Roll together skills with synergy bonuses, as proposed in the Pathfinder system. Synergy bonuses go the way of the dodo.
* Allow retroactive Int bonuses, so you don't have to back-subtract. Geron is dead-on with that suggestion; it'll save a lot of difficulty when statting NPC wizards.
* Ignore class vs. cross-class skills.
* Then all you need to do is pick 'em and max 'em out.
I like this. Alot.
I really like the skills system, as both a player and a DM. However, as a DM, I already simplify my life by simply figuring out how many skill points per level/HD ranks the creature/NPC gets, then figuring out the max ranks, and assign max ranks to the chosen skills. If I need other skills, I simply shave off a few points here or there and assign them to the extra skills. The biggest slowdown is figuring out those skills that are class skills at some levels and non-class skills at other levels (such as by multiclassing or adding prestige classes). Kirth's method would solve this problem nicely.
I'm a big fan of synergy bonuses, but agree that by combining most synergistic skills, they are no longer necessary.
Epic Meepo... good work. I like the way you are thinking. The results are nearly the same, but the process by which you get there is a bit simpler.
Still thinking.
I have to say this about Epic Meepo's suggestion.. I don't juggle mechanics in my head very easily. Trying to consider them in a purely abstract manner is difficult. I usually have to step through them while actually playing in order to see the interactions.
But I went back and read his idea, and made sense the first time.
Wow, Meepo is truly Epic. That is an impressive clean up and will be easy to communicate to new players. That's going into a play test game, but theoretically I like how that works. (Passing the ball back to Kirth Gersen for getting it rolling)
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It seems Mr. Meepo's big fix is retroactive Intelligence bonuses for Skill Points, which is fine by me. Everything else is semantics and/or presentation, which is also fine by me.
You could even simplify it further, for DM's for skill points in particular. In the PHB, they have starting packages, which effectively max out X number of skills. Take skill points and do the same.
If a 10th level rogue character can have up to 13 skill ranks in any one skill, and they have an Intelligence modifier of +2, they should get a total of 100 skill points. Divided by 13, they get 7.6 maxed out skills. So give them 8 skills at +13 (or some cross-class skills at +6). Close enough.
I love Meepo's idea
I think that to keep the system simple and flexible, Epic Meepo is more in line with the current OGL 3.5 than my system proposal.
And to simplify either system for the DM we could add a Skills Progression Chart with the skills points total for each class progression and intelligence bonus (to help the DM do the math quickly for high level character):
Exemple: Skills points at 1st level / skills points for each additional level
Class Skill
Progression ........ Intelligence Bonus
......... -5 / -4 / -3 / -2 / -1 / 0 / +1 / +2 / +3 / +4 / +5
2...... 4/1 4/1 4/1 4/1 4/1 8/2 12/3 16/4 20/5 24/6 28/7
4...... 4/1 4/1 4/1 8/2 12/3 16/4 20/5 24/6 28/7 32/8 36/9
6...... 4/1 8/2 12/3 16/4 20/5 24/6 28/7 32/8 36/9 40/10 44/11
8...... 12/3 16/4 20/5 24/6 28/7 32/8 36/9 40/10 44/11 48/12 52/13
For human add +4 at first level and +1 for each additional level.
For creating a high level character, you only have to add the column..
A Elf Fighter 3/ Rogue 5 with Int 14(+2) skill pts total:
16+4+4 (for is 3 Fighter level)+10+10+10+10+10 (for is 5 rogue level) = 74 skills pts that he can distribute in any skills he want (1 skill = 1 rank) with a maximum rank of 11 in each skill(character level +3).
The skills modifiers are:
1d20+skills ranks+ability modifier for all trained skills (All Fighter and Rogue Class skills)
1d20+1/2(skills ranks)+ability modifier for all cross-class skills.
The character sheet skill section should reflect that:
Skill .... Rank .... Skill mod (1/2 rank for cross-class)... Ability mod .. other mod.. Total
Climb 4 = +4 +1 ... = +5
Spellcraft* 6 = +3 +2 ... = +6
Sneak* 4 = +2 +3 ... = +5
...
* cross-class skill
I like that a lot! :-)
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It seems Mr. Meepo's big fix is retroactive Intelligence bonuses for Skill Points, which is fine by me. Everything else is semantics and/or presentation, which is also fine by me.
There is one major difference between Epic Meepo and 3.5 (and a good change, in my opinion).
If you spend two points on a cross-class skill you get 1 rank in it. If you later take the class that provides that skill as a class skill, you still only have one rank in it.
In Epic Meepo's system, you spend two points and you effectively have one rank in it. But, if you later take the class that provides that skill as a class skill, you have two ranks in it.
This means that it doesn't really matter when you spent the skill, only whether the skill is a class skill for any of your classes or not.
For example, I take 10 levels of fighter and always max out concentration as a cross class skill. At 10th level I have spent 13 ranks, but I only have a +6 (6.5) for ranks.
At 11th level I take a level of wizard. Concentration is now a class skill. In 3.5 I can use my wizard skill points to bump it all the way up to 14 (at the cost of 8 skill points), but I don't gain more ranks in that skill.
Under Epic Meepo's fix, the wizard level changes those 'cross-class ranks' into class ranks. Instead of effectively having 6 ranks, I effectively have 13, even if I don't put a single wizard skill point into Concentration.
Again, in my mind, this is better. But it is not 'exactly like 3.5' (unless you never take a class that allows that skill as a class skill, in which case it is functionally the same, but easier to explain).
My group is almost UNIVERSALLY in favor of keeping 3.5 skills as is. Even the people who are pro 4.0 in my group think the skill system for 4.0 is poor.
The issues with it are as follows:
We all would rather have the flexibility of 3.5 skills for a number of reasons.
1) Raw flexibility. The ability to say "Well, Fred just isn't any better than this at the Shaving Heads of Angry Giants skill" and only allocate a limited number of ranks is fine with us.
More fun.
2) Skill retraining: The rules in some of the later 3.5 sourcebooks make the overcomplication of INT irrelevant for NPCs. Just take their Int Mod and add it to their skill points for each level. Voila. Done.
Quicker and easier
3) What if I don't WANT max ranks in a skill? This is probably the most salient point, and the one that I keep trying to drive home to people again and again. If all of the problems with the skills are on the DMing end, then just max rank a few things and have done with it.
More fun.
4)There is absolutely no reason why a 15th level character who chose to sack a skill into Gemcutting or some other artisanal ability should be the best in the world at it just for going out there and slaying monsters.
And if you think this is more fun for the DM, you're nuts. That means that around that level, such a character effectively has the ability, during their downtime, to produce a wealth total far greater than any other character in the party. I would rather impress upon the PC that it may not be so wise to throw a rank into Gemcutting every level than it is to have them take the skill at first level, and then radically increase their wealth over the course of the entire game.
The math is almost exactly the same. The only real difference is that a rank in any skill always costs only one skill point, and ranks are sometimes only worth a +1/2 bonus....
This is pretty much the house rule I have used for several years and it does many multi-classing builds a LOT easier. My only question is, how do we consider Feat ranks to work? I have consistantly maintained Feats grant exactl what they say +2 or +3 or +whatever. This doesn't get halved for cross-class. In 3.5 this is the most reasonable interpritation (IMHO). Using this varient for PF, what would be people's preference?
This is pretty much the house rule I have used for several years and it does many multi-classing builds a LOT easier. My only question is, how do we consider Feat ranks to work? I have consistantly maintained Feats grant exactl what they say +2 or +3 or +whatever. This doesn't get halved for cross-class. In 3.5 this is the most reasonable interpritation (IMHO). Using this varient for PF, what would be people's preference?
The math is almost exactly the same. The only real difference is that a rank in any skill always costs only one skill point, and ranks are sometimes only worth a +1/2 bonus....
My preference is that the +2/+2 skill feats and +3 focus feat additionally change the skill to a class skill..in which case they would always add the full amount to the skill bonus.
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Epic Meepo's system is much easier, the only problem with the system is that most monsters don't have class levels so there is no notion of cross class skill and class skills for them.
Should all monster skills be treated as cross class? If yes then they get lower skills scores than 3.5.
Or should all monster skills be treated as class skills? Then it breaks if you add a class level and try to work out the skill scores.
I guess you need a change to fix this. Maybe mark skills as class/cross class for each creature type. Or allow them to choose X class skills based on the number of points their base type gives them.
A monster treats all skills they are shown with in the MM as class skills. For most that is listen and spot, but not much else.
I have consistantly maintained Feats grant exactl what they say +2 or +3 or +whatever. This doesn't get halved for cross-class. In 3.5 this is the most reasonable interpritation (IMHO). Using this varient for PF, what would be people's preference?
Skill Focus and other "Skill" feats does not add rank to a skill but a bonus on all checks involving that skill. So no change needed for that and your interpration was correct.
Under Epic Meepo's fix, the wizard level changes those 'cross-class ranks' into class ranks. Instead of effectively having 6 ranks, I effectively have 13, even if I don't put a single wizard skill point into Concentration.
Again, in my mind, this is better. But it is not 'exactly like 3.5' (unless you never take a class that allows that skill as a class skill, in which case it is functionally the same, but easier to explain).
And it's a lot better than the Pathfinder Alpha method where the same Fighter/Wizard could have pass from 0 rank to 13 rank by simply choosing Concentration at level 10. The most ranks you can instantly gain with the Epic Meepo method is 12 (a level 19 fighter with concentration 22 ranks (+11) who become a Wizard at level 20 and add a rakk to Concentration (+23)...
I think it's a fine compromise for a simplify character creation process...
Epic Meepo's system is much easier, the only problem with the system is that most monsters don't have class levels so there is no notion of cross class skill and class skills for them.
I think you don't understand Epic Meepo's solution. There is absolutly no change in the way you 'buy' skills with this system compare to the 3.5 OGL.
In OGL it's 1 skills pts = 1 rank for Class Skills and 2 skils pts = 1 rank for Cross-Class Skills.What Meepo propose it's exactly the same thing but from a different angle. A Cross Skill now cost only 1 skills pts = 1 rank but this rank give you only a +1/2 modifier instead...
The big difference is when you mutli-class every previous Cross-Class rank in skill are now calcultated as a Class Skill...
Exemple:
In OGL, A fighter 1 could buy Spellcraft rank 2 (that give a +2 bonus)for 4 skills pts because it's a cross-class skill. A level 2 he choose the Wizard Class and decide to add 2 others ranks to this skills (cost 2 skills pts) for a total of 4 rank.
With Meepo's system, the same fighter 1 buy 4 rank (that still give only a +2 bonus) for 4 skills pts. At level 2 he choose Wizard and his former +2 bonus in spellcraft instantly became +4 as the skill is now a Class Skill. He then choose to add the same +2 rank for a total of 6 ranks (+6 bonus).
There is no difference with the skills for Monsters.
I want to add one thing to this . the pathfinder system is much easier for new gamers to grasp.Last night I ran a non gaming friend of mine though both skill systems . she liked the alpha much better and had a much easier time grasping it then skill points. Over the years I have brought many people to 3.5 and the skill system was one of the hardest things for them to grasp not sure why.But thats at lest 6 out of 10 new player have had issues grasping it they got it in time but was hard for them to get it . the alpha I have shown to her and to one gamer who had trouble with the skill system he liked the new system better as well.
I want to add one thing to this . the pathfinder system is much easier for new gamers to grasp.Last night I ran a non gaming friend of mine though both skill systems . she liked the alpha much better and had a much easier time grasping it then skill points. Over the years I have brought many people to 3.5 and the skill system was one of the hardest things for them to grasp not sure why.But thats at lest 6 out of 10 new player have had issues grasping it they got it in time but was hard for them to get it . the alpha I have shown to her and to one gamer who had trouble with the skill system he liked the new system better as well.
This is actually an excellent point. I have a few players that played a lot more 2nd edition than 3rd, and they missed the "background skills" that they could spend points on, but they were almost relieved at how simple the system was.
Let me also support Epic Meepo's proposed change (including retroactive skill points for Int increases).
One further change is to allow the saving of skill ranks. This is purely a time-saver for DMs and should be explained as such, but it is much more convenient to simply get a total number of skill points and allocate, especially considering that when a point was spent no longer matters.
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I have to admit, I really like Epic Meepo's suggestion, but there is one thing about the alpha skill system I like alot - highly skilled high-rank characters. It was nice, when converting the iconics, to see that the level 15 versions were genuinely capable at a wide variety of things. They may have been too capable, I admit, but I find 2+Int mod skills to be painfully restrictive. If EM's suggestion winds up being taken, please consider raising the minimum number of skill points per level to 4+Int.
epic Meepo's ideal isnt bad but it still makes me deal with the hassle of skill points at high level. I like alpha's better still his has its merits.
I like the Alpha system as it is because it's very simple. Trying to figure out skill modifiers from monsters is a bit confusing. Also you should min/maxing your skills anyway. Gaining new skills as you gain class levels is a bit unbalanced to me. Also people don't pick barbarian or wizard for skills anyway. If a DM's campaign starts out at level 1, it would be stupid for everyone to be a rogue just for skills.
I think you should only gain skills at first level and gaining a new class doesn't net you new skills. Maybe class features or feats can allow you gain new skills. If you don't like your chosen skills, there should be an option to retrain them. There's spells that give modifiers to certain skills. If you need climb down something and you're not trained in athletics, a simple spell should allow a person to gain a temp boost to improve their chances. Everyone shouldn't be a skill monkey but at the same time, they shouldn't be spreading themselves too thin.
Use the 3.5 system for skills with the revised skill list in alpha but remove class vs. cross class skills. All skills can be taken by all classes. What makes rogues so great at skills is the number of skill points they get over other classes.
I'm with you. I'd be very happy to see class skills go away.
For those who seem to prefer the Alpha for it's simplicity, what do you think of this alternative I've propose a few days ago:
At first level, your character gains a number of skills Choice equal to twice the amount show on table 5.1: First Level Skill Choices. At every even character level after that, you gain another skill choice.
With one skill Choice you can buy:
Basic Training: 1d20 +1/2(character level +3) + modifiers (same as a Trained Cross-Class Skill)
With a second skill Choice you can buy Full Training (only if the skill is a Class Skill):
Full Training: 1d20 + character level +3 + modifiers (same as a Trained Class Skill)
The main difference with this system and the Pathfinder Alpha is that you can buy half-maximum rank for your hobby skills and reduce the cost of the cross-class skills. Also, the progression of new skills after level 1 will be slower as one skill Choice will only buy half-maximum rank instead of a full trained rank. It will encourage character to buy more cross-class skills and make those who want to keep some low-level skills happy... :-)
I want to add one thing to this . the pathfinder system is much easier for new gamers to grasp.Last night I ran a non gaming friend of mine though both skill systems . she liked the alpha much better and had a much easier time grasping it then skill points. Over the years I have brought many people to 3.5 and the skill system was one of the hardest things for them to grasp not sure why.But thats at lest 6 out of 10 new player have had issues grasping it they got it in time but was hard for them to get it . the alpha I have shown to her and to one gamer who had trouble with the skill system he liked the new system better as well.This is actually an excellent point. I have a few players that played a lot more 2nd edition than 3rd, and they missed the "background skills" that they could spend points on, but they were almost relieved at how simple the system was.
It sounds like the Alpha system is popular enough for a sidebar on "Simpler Skills".
Meepo's adjustments handle most of the issues, keep skill points, etc. I would suggest doing away with the term "skill points" - simply have characters gain "skill ranks" each level. The only brokenness I can detect is back to the Rogue at first level again, but it's much reduced.
A Rogue could take lots of cross class skills (Concentration, Spellcraft, Knowledge skills), along with whatever else, then get them remaxed out by taking Wizard say. But that's hardly the same as eternally maxed out rogue skills from a single level.
On a separate note on folded skills:
So how about...this:
Influence (CHA)
Bluff + Gather Information
Negotiate (CHA/WIS) or Diplomacy
Diplomacy + Sense Motive
Examine (Int)
Appraise + Search
Perception (Wis)
Listen + Spot + other senses
For those who seem to prefer the Alpha for it's simplicity, what do you think of this alternative I've propose a few days ago:
At first level, your character gains a number of skills Choice equal to twice the amount show on table 5.1: First Level Skill Choices. At every even character level after that, you gain another skill choice.
With one skill Choice you can buy:
Basic Training: 1d20 +1/2(character level +3) + modifiers (same as a Trained Cross-Class Skill)With a second skill Choice you can buy Full Training (only if the skill is a Class Skill):
Full Training: 1d20 + character level +3 + modifiers (same as a Trained Class Skill)The main difference with this system and the Pathfinder Alpha is that you can buy half-maximum rank for your hobby skills and reduce the cost of the cross-class skills. Also, the progression of new skills after level 1 will be slower as one skill Choice will only buy half-maximum rank instead of a full trained rank. It will encourage character to buy more cross-class skills and make those who want to keep some low-level skills happy... :-)
yours isnt bad to many skills though.I still want a cleaned up alpha not skill points.but a side bar if nothing else.
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I like Paizo approach. Skills are important but never should be that important. That's why they chose the character's level as a base instead of individual skill points. The thing I see wrong with the Alpha system is that it can easily be harassed. I think the current problem with skills lies in the fact that you have four ways of gaining and using skills. To gain skills they have to be Class or Cross-Class. To use them, they either have to be Trained or Untrained. That's two systems doing the work of one. Add in the points and double up the penalty for cross-class and now you have the current system. It's too complex but we all have learned to deal with it. I think by dropping cross-class down to one penalty as one way to fix it. Either it be double the cost but can have the same amount of ranks as a Class skill. Ex. I have to spend 8 points into a skill to get 4 ranks at 1st level. Or we could switch to 1 for 1 but with the current cross-class maxes. With the first option, though Cross-class is harder to get ranks into, you are no longer restricted by the limits per level and I favor that option more than my previous posts. Now if you go Alpha system, I suggest this, have one way of using skills 1d20+Level+3+Mod+Bonus, then to have cross-class skills, just make it cost two of your skills instead of one but it offers the same bonus. So the fighter with 2+int(Assuming 10) can have two skills or can have one cross-class. The Human Fighter would get 3+int(assuming 10) so he could have 3 Class skills or 1 Class and 1 Cross-Class. This is the best options I can think of. Any suggestions?
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Just to show Dm's how easy this system is to use with Alpha, I will make a Fighter3/Rogue3/Wizard2/ArcaneArcher2. This Character will be a Half-Elf with the elite array. His Int would be 14. It's +2 went into Dex. At Level 4, Another Point went into Dex and at 8 one point went into Str. Skill that gets the Class Treatment: Perception
Str. 14 Dex 18 Con 10 Int 14 Wis 11 Cha 8
1st Level: Fighter Possible 4 Trained Class Skills
Acrobatics(Class 1 point)
Perception(Class 1 point)
Stealth(Cross-Class 2 points)
2nd Level: Rogue 1 new skill
(Now at this point, I realize that extra point was lost on stealth but I wouldn't have been able to spend my second skill on other useful skill)
Theft(Class 1 point)
3rd Level: Wizard No new skills
4th Level: Rogue 1 new skill
(At this point, I have a much broader selection of skills to choose from)
Spellcraft(Class 1 point)
5th Level: Fighter No new skills
6th Level: Rogue 1 New Skill
Tumble(Class 1 point)
7th Level: Fighter No new skills
8th Level: Wizard 1 New Skill
Escape Artist(Class 1 point)
9th Level: Arcane Archer No new skills
10th Level: Arcane Archer 1 new Skill
Ride(Class 1 point)
Now I have 8 Skills maxed out which is about what a Rogue would have. I can see the arguement that I should have taken 1st level Rogue but that isn't what I was trying to prove, I just wanted to show my idea in action. I can also use this idea with skill points. If you want to see that, let me know and I'll post it. This above example took me 15 mins. because I am not familiar enough with the Alpha system.
I am not sure why this came to me in the middle of the night but anyhow.
I am going to be trying out this solution to the skills dilema.
Class Skills
d20 + (Character level- Level Skill Aquired) + 4 + Ability Modifier + Racial Modifier + Misc Modifier
Cross Class Skills
d20 + ( 1/2 (Character level- Level Skill Aquired)) + 4 + Ability Modifier + Racial Modifier + Misc Modifier
I changed the +3 to +4 to keep 1st level skills at the same bonus as the Alpha pdf has currently. I think this addresses the main concern that skills aquired later in the game won't be as well trained as ones aquired at first level while keeping the simplicity of Jason's original method.
Alright then, time to stat up some characters. Or convert existing characters, at least. The goal: To find a system which allows me to get mostly the same effect as 3.5 (perhaps marginally better) with minimal complexity.
Firstly, we have Asperel Brighteyes.
Asp 3.5
Linguistics 3 (+5)
K: The planes 3 (+5)
K: Arcana 3 (+5)
Stealth 2 (+11) (racial, cat familiar)
Theft 2 (+6) (racial)
K: History 1 (+3) (racial)
Spellcraft 4 (+6)
Perception 2 (+2)
Note that I've altered things slightly thanks to the consolidated skill system.
20 points spent in all over 8 skills, none maxed out. It's worth noting that I've persuaded my GM to allow me to take the able learner feat, allowing me to take ranks in cross-class skills at a cost of one point per rank. I've never been a paying through the nose for cross-class skills. So whatever other system I wind up using, I save a feat. Score!
Asp Pathfinder
five skills, all maxed out.
Linguistics 5 (+7)
K: the planes 5 (+7)
K: Arcana 5 (+7)
Theft 2 (+6) (racial)
Spellcraft 5 (+3) (racial)
A few skills down,despite consolidation, but that ought to change soon. And the bonuses are certainly better. It's amusing that between a cat familiar and his small size, Asp's stealth skill of +9 still beats out all his trained ones.
Asp Hybrid
5 skill ranks to be spent, three of which can be cross-class.
Linguistics 1 (+4)
K: the planes 1 (+4)
K: Arcana 1 (+4)
Theft 1 (+6)
Spellcraft 1 (+0)
I've gone with a spread of skills, rather than mastery. Overall bonuses are down on what they were for 3.5 and Pathfinder. And although individual skills might catch up with 3.5, it would take a while for a significant number to do so.
Asp's skills don't seem likely to change significantly under the scaled or scaled hybrid systems, so moving on...
A higher level example is Kelne, a 15th level rogue/artificer hybrid.
Kelne is very much an all-rounder in terms of skills, with 18 taken to various degrees. This character sheet was converted a while ago from another system for my own amusement and in case I ever felt like using him as an NPC contact in a campaign.
3.5 Kelne
Balance 7 (+12) (synergy)
Bluff 5 (+6)
Concentration 10 (+11)
Diplomacy 8 (+11) (synergy)
Disguise 5 (+8) (synergy)
Gather information 10 (+11)
Hide 10 (+13)
Intimidate 10 (+13) (synergy)
K: Arcana 10 (+14)
K: The Planes 15 (+19)
Listen 18 (+20)
Move silently 10 (+13)
Search 18 (+22)
Sense motive 18 (+20)
Spellcraft 10 (+14)
Spot 18 (+20)
Tumble 10 (+13)
Use magic device 16 (+17)
No consolidation and reallocation here, as it would just take too long. Besides, power levels are being gauged relative to 3.5, not consolidated 3.5.
Pretty fair pile of stuff to keep track of, really. 180 skill points (being human helps), spread over 18 skills, though only 5 of those are at a high level. One shudders to imagine how many a pure rogue might have to spend. Not really an optimised character, but there are distinct areas of doubling up of similar skills.
Under the consolidated skills system, this would collapse down into 11 skills (plus fly). Still a large number, but the extra 81 skill points saved could certainly be put to good use.
Under the Pathfinder rules, Kelne has 19 trained skills, all at 18 ranks, plus stat bonuses. A bit much, I think.
Kelne Hybrid
19 ranks to be spent, and a consolidated skill list means I ought to be able to focus them nicely.
Acrobatics 2 (+18)
Diplomacy 1 (+8)
Deception 2 (+16)
Fly 2 (+18)
K: the planes 2 (+19)
Perception 4 (+25)
Spellcraft 2 (+19)
Stealth 2 (+18)
Use magic device 2 (+16)
Well, they're certainly focused. 9 skills, more or less matching what they were before. Even a bit higher in some cases. I decided that intimidate and disguise were superfluous, folding into diplomacy and deception respectively. Still a jack-of-all-trades, save for perception through the roof.
And holy hell, that was quicker to work out. I expect I might go for a couple of expert ranks for a truly scratchbuilt character, but for a conversion of an existing character, I think it's pretty accurate.
Scaled Kelne would be as per Pathfinder, but with a reduced number of skills. So, 15 skills, all at +18. Still a bit much.
Scaled Hybrid Kelne
The poor guy's beginning to sound like some kind of half-dragon by this point. Thankfully, this is the last one.
Effectively, for a rogue type, this would be the hybrid system minus 4 skill points. And looking at the hybrid, I can't decide what I'd want to drop. It's also the most complicated system short of 3.5 itself, involving as it does individual skill progressions for each class. So I think I have to say no to this one.
Overall thoughts: I prefer the Hybrid system. At least for a high level rogue. I'd have to see how it functions for other classes before making a final call. It may need a bit of tweaking, but I think it's ultimately sound.
On the wider system of skill points, I think scaling up, rather than down would be the way to go. At least for those classes which only get 2 base skill points. It gives them a few more options.
While I like Epic Meepo proposal, I have a question:
If my fighter has 4 skill ranks in Handle Animal, when multiclassing with rogue at the next level, he would make his check with only a +2 bonus (as it is not a class skill). What reason "in game" could I give for this, why did he suddenly "lose" his training ?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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It seems Mr. Meepo's big fix is retroactive Intelligence bonuses for Skill Points, which is fine by me. Everything else is semantics and/or presentation, which is also fine by me.
Under Epic Meepo's fix, the wizard level changes those 'cross-class ranks' into class ranks. Instead of effectively having 6 ranks, I effectively have 13, even if I don't put a single wizard skill point into Concentration.
Again, in my mind, this is better. But it is not 'exactly like 3.5' (unless you never take a class that allows that skill as a class skill, in which case it is functionally the same, but easier to explain).
Doesn't that just bring us back to the multiclassing rogue munchkin at first level?
Not to be a naysayer, but this does not seem to be an improvement over the OGL for me. Dividing by two was never very hard. Retroactive intelligence bonuses make things somewhat easier though.
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I too like the Epic Meepo Skill System (EMS) a lot.
Did some NPC skill statting and it worked very well. First did all the Stats and then used the Int. bonus to buy skills from first level up.
Afterwards I ticked off the class skills.
The added Stat bonuses.
Bam!
Easy!
I am also very much in favor of dropping the synergy bonusses. With a leaner skill list and the EMS I do not think we need them anymore and they complicate Monster/NPC build a lot.
Further food for thought:
With the EMS we could also create a Feat that allows a PC to trat a skill like a Class skill.
If there is a Fighter out there who wants to be able to tumble, but does not want a rogue level he takes:
Skill Mastery
You are adapt at one Skill of your choosing.
Prerequisites: skill ranks in a cross class skill (see below)
Choose one cross class skill you have ranks in. From now on you treat this skill as a Class Skill instead of a Cross Class Skill.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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It seems Mr. Meepo's big fix is retroactive Intelligence bonuses for Skill Points, which is fine by me. Everything else is semantics and/or presentation, which is also fine by me.
Under Epic Meepo's fix, the wizard level changes those 'cross-class ranks' into class ranks. Instead of effectively having 6 ranks, I effectively have 13, even if I don't put a single wizard skill point into Concentration.
Again, in my mind, this is better. But it is not 'exactly like 3.5' (unless you never take a class that allows that skill as a class skill, in which case it is functionally the same, but easier to explain).
Doesn't that just bring us back to the multiclassing rogue munchkin at first level?
Not to be a naysayer, but this does not seem to be an improvement over the OGL for me. Dividing by two was never very hard. Retroactive intelligence bonuses make things somewhat easier though.
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While I like Epic Meepo proposal, I have a question:
If my fighter has 4 skill ranks in Handle Animal, when multiclassing with rogue at the next level, he would make his check with only a +2 bonus (as it is not a class skill). What reason "in game" could I give for this, why did he suddenly "lose" his training ?
If I'm reading it right then any skill which is a class skill for any of your classes (in this case handle animal) is always a class skill. So the check would stay at +4 + ability mod etc. Does this clarify things?
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I keep hearing that the people who like the Alpha system like it because it is easy.
Several other easy systems have been proposed, some including skill points. Any thoughts on any of those?
That said, it seems like there are two debates. One side says 'keep Alpha because it is easy' and the other side is saying 'Alpha is easy, but it sucks'.
To my mind, that means that to make both sides happy we need to find a system that is easy, like Alpha, but doesn't suck (creating characters who are instantly good at anything, who can't take a few random skill for 'fun', etc).
Though, it sounds like Jason has some ideas from this and other threads to do just that.
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One more vote for the Epic Meepo System.
I also like Tharen's Skill Mastery Feat.
Overall, I must say that the Pathfinder Skill System is my only real stumbling block in the Alpha 1. Meepo's suggestion removes my main concerns quickly and easily. Just needs the clarification that all further additions to CC Skills (from Feats, Racial, Magic, etc) are not halved.
As far as minor concerns:
I believe Tumble is a useful enough Skill to still stand on its own.
I suspect some Knowledge skills could be consolidated into others (I'm looking at you, Nobility & Royalty and Arc & Eng).
Perception is VERY powerful, but I can live with it.
Thanks Jason, for tackling this gorilla.
Although I like Meepo's ideas on many levels, I don't care much for the cross-class reduction of a previous rank when you are multiclassing... if, that is, something that he put into this (I'm still going over these rules a bit). I'm like one of the preivous posters above... when you learn something, you learn it and know it... so if I gained Climb as a fighter and go on to be a wizard, I shouldn't have forgotten how to climb as effectively.
Otherwise, it works.
One thing that I will give particular kudos of support to in Epic Meepo's idea is making the Intelligence retroactive... that was one thing that I didn't like with 3.x and I will say that this would make things a bit more like the desired increase/maxing out that was originally proposed in Pathfinder.