Every 4 levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), a fighter
becomes further trained in one group of weapons. You
can select the same group of weapons multiple times. The
bonuses granted from this ability stack.
Weapon groups are defined as follows.
I feel this is too restrictive and encourage fighter to be one-weapon-ponies. I suggest the following instead:
Every 4 levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), a fighter
becomes further trained in the weapons he knows, or learns to use a new group of weapons. Either increase the attack and damage bonus of your trained weapons by one, or add another group of weapons to those you can use with this ability.
In my example, a fighter adds +4 to one, +3 to two, +2 to three, or +1 to four weapons at level 20. In the original, a fighter has a +5 bonus to spread over all groups.
I'd kind of like to see it more like the way ranger favored enemies work...so that at 20th level...the one he took 1st is at +4, next one taken is +3, third is +2, 4th is +1..reflecting that the weapons he used from the beginning he's better with...but that he gets bonuses with multiple types...because otherwise...he's never gonna want that cool mace you put in...because mace isn't the type he put his bonus in..but if it's his 2nd or 3rd choice...he might...
I agree
-too much specilaisation in one weapon or weapon type being an advantage rewards a lack of variety, variety is fun.
Think about fantasy novels the heros have a weapon that they are great with like wih these rules
Think of Lord of the Rings Legolas and Gimley were great with there weapons they were not picking up new ones here and there they stayed with there type of weapon
Think about fantasy novels the heros have a weapon that they are great with like wih these rules
Think of Lord of the Rings Legolas and Gimley were great with there weapons they were not picking up new ones here and there they stayed with there type of weapon
So you would like your characters to be worse with some weapons for RP reasons? If you want to only fight with one weapon for flavor thats fine with me, but don't force that flavor into the rules.
The fantasy novel argument is not sound since D&D / Pathfinder is not emulating any one fantasy novel. Such a rule like what you suggest might be fine for a Lord of the Rings game, but what if I want to play a conan game? In the Conan stories, he'll fight with absolutely anything. Sword and shield, axe and shield, spear, two weapons, two handed weapons, fists, light armor, heavy armor, and so on.
I agree with the Conan about him using every thing but my question was he as good with every weapon NO i dont think so he was the best with his big bad ass sword if im not mistaken and that what i mean, think of people who train with guns they are the trained highly with a certain group of guns just like this fighter he is really good with his small group of weapons
So why is this important? Have you ever found a great weapon in an adventure that you didn't want to use because your weapon feats wouldn't apply if you used it? Its happened to me plenty times. Just avoid the whole problem by removing weapon and armor specializtion.
Or, as Carl proposed above, allow specialization, but make the bonus less than choosing a new group. That proposal, to my mind, is exactly what the doctor ordered.
I think that Fighters should be awesome at fighting. Other classes can keep their Weapon Focus abilities to a single weapon, but Fighters are so great at fighting that they can get the best out of any weapon. Also, the limiting to a single weapon or weapon group really hurts Fighters who like to use two different weapons, like dual wielding an axe and a dagger or going back and forth between a longbow and greatsword.
In 3.5E, it was almost always better to dual wield shortswords as opposed to a longsword and shortsword because of these silly Weapon Focus limitations. I think that at least Fighters should be able to break these limitations and get their special bonuses with any weapon or armor, unless of course having a character with a backup suit of armor is some kind blasphemy of which I am not aware.
It's not like this is going to make Fighters unbalanced or overpowered, anyway, so you might as well simplify things for them while giving them the added flavor of being the best at fighting.
Personally I find the Weapon Training (and Armor Training to a lesser extent) to be ridiculously over-powered.
Fighters should be good at fighting with anything? They *are*. That's why they have a full fighter attack bonus. That's why they have tons and tons of feats to spend.
Why don't you spend every feat getting Weapon Focus or Spec in your newest favorite weapon? Because that's not as strong as focusing? Gosh - don't let your eagerness for power get in the way of the rules.
Let's see, 12th level Fighter. Minimum 20-24 strength.
Attack:
+12 BAB
+6 Strength
+3 Greatsword
+2 W. Focus & Gr. W. Focus
+3 Weapon Training
= +26/+21/+16 attacks
-6 Power Attack
= +20/+15/+10 (reasonable, but...)
Damage:
2d6
+9 (Strength and a half)
+3 Magic
+3 Weapon Training
+4 Greater W. Spec
+12 Power Attack
= Average of 38 points per hit, not counting Flaming, or Criticals, or any boosting spells or songs. I know epic level paladins that would love to dish out nearly that much damage per hit.
The Weapon training factors in about 9 of that average damage (counting the +3 to hit as doubled for power attack).
Please forgive me if this post sounds a bit harsh, but the idea that a bonus that stacks very heavily with other class features isn't already strong enough just grates a bit.
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I think this weapon group for fighters is a good step in the right direction. However, what I would like to see is the adoption of weapon groups overall for all classes like those in the SRD. the SRD ones are a little crazy IMO and I have modified them as follows...
WEAPON GROUP (AXES AND PICKS)
You understand how to use axes, picks and axelike weapons.
Benefit: You make attack rolls with the following weapons normally: handaxe, battleaxe, greataxe, dwarven waraxe (two-handed use only), light pick, and heavy pick, sickle, ogre hook.
WEAPON GROUP (BASIC WEAPONS)
You understand how to use a few basic weapons.
Benefit: You make attack rolls with the following weapons normally: war-club, dagger, quarterstaff, spiked gauntlet.
WEAPON GROUP (BOWS)
You understand how to use bows.
Benefit: You make attack rolls with the following weapons normally: shortbow, longbow, composite shortbow, and composite longbow.
WEAPON GROUP (CROSSBOWS)
You understand how to use crossbows and thrown weapons.
Benefit: You make attack rolls with the following weapons normally: dart, heavy crossbow, light crossbow, repeating heavy crossbow, repeat-ing light crossbow, and slingshot.
WEAPON GROUP (EXOTIC DOUBLE WEAPONS)
You understand how to use the exotic double weapons associated with the weapon groups that you have mastered.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When you take this feat, you gain proficiency in the exotic double weapons associated with the weapon groups that you already know how to use.
Some exotic double weapons require you to be proficient with two weapon groups to gain proficiency in their use from this feat.
- Axes & Picks: Orc double axe, dwarven urgrosh (must also have Weapon Group [Polearms and Spears]), gnome hooked hammer (must also have Weapon Group [Maces and Hammers]).
- Heavy Blades: two-bladed sword.
- Maces and Hammers: gnome hooked hammer (must also have Weapon Group [Axes and Picks]).
- Polearms and Spears: Dwarven urgrosh (must also have Weapon Group [axes and picks]).
WEAPON GROUP (EXOTIC WEAPONS)
You understand how to use the exotic weapons associated with the weapon groups that you have mastered.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When you take this feat, you gain proficiency in the exotic weapons associated with the weapon groups that you already know how to use. Whenever you take a Weapon Group proficiency feat, you also gain proficiency in the exotic weapons (but not the exotic double weap-ons) associated with that group.
- Axes: Dwarven waraxe (one-handed use).
- Crossbows and Thrown: Bolas, chakram, hand crossbow.
- Flails and chains: scourge, spiked chain, whip.
- Heavy Blades: Bastard sword (one-handed use).
WEAPON GROUP (FLAILS AND CHAINS)
You understand how to use flails and chain weapons.
Benefit: You make attack rolls with the following weapons normally: light flail and heavy flail.
WEAPON GROUP (HEAVY BLADES)
You understand how to use large bladed weapons.
Benefit: You make attack rolls with the following weapons normally: longsword, greatsword, falchion, scimitar, and bastard sword (two-handed use), Dogslicer.
WEAPON GROUP (LIGHT BLADES)
You understand how to use light bladed weapons.
Benefit: You make attack rolls with the following weapons normally: Kukri, punching dagger, rapier, and short sword, Klar, War razor, Starknife.
WEAPON GROUP (MACES AND HAMMERS)
You understand how to use maces and clubs.
Benefit: You make attack rolls with the following weapons normally: light mace, heavy mace, greatclub, sap, light hammer, warhammer, and maul, Earth Breaker.
WEAPON GROUP (MONK WEAPONS)
You understand how to use weapons normally favored by monks.
Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike.
Benefit: You make attack rolls with the following weapons normally: kama, nunchaku, sai, shuriken, and siangham.
WEAPON GROUP (POLEARMS AND SPEARS)
You understand how to use polearms.
Benefit: You make attack rolls with the following weapons normally: glaive, guisarme, halberd, and ranseur, javelin, lance, longspear, shortspear, trident, and war-scythe.
Some notes on the weapons listed...
The following is a list of weapons that are now sub-categorised as tools. these weapons fall under no weapon group and while can be used for fighting are not designed for that purpose, they suffer only a -2 non-proficiency penalty instead of -4 and cannot be made masterwork.
Club, Staff, Grain Sickle, Grain Flail, Scythe, Mining Pick, Hatchet, Hammer, Pitchfork, Sling, and Knife.
Each tool has a military equivalent that can be made masterwork and can be taken as part of a proficiency (see above).
Club = War-club
Staff = Quarterstaff
Grain Sickle = Sickle
Grain Flail = Flail
Scythe = War-scythe
Mining Pick = Light Pick
Hatchet = Hand Axe
Hammer = Light Hammer
Pitchfork = Spear, Shortspear or Trident
Sling = Slingshot* (1d4 x4 crit 50ft range)
Knife = Dagger
Fighters should be good at fighting with anything? They *are*. That's why they have a full fighter attack bonus. That's why they have tons and tons of feats to spend.
So, are Barbarians, Paladins, and Rangers not getting a full base attack bonus? Are they not allowed to take feats either? It usually doesn't take very long at all (especially for humans) to get the feats they need to match just about everything a Fighter can do in 3.5E. With an increased rate of gaining feats in the Paizo RPG, the one thing unique to 3.5E Fighters (a ton of feats) gets watered down further. You didn't need too many feats because you would just do the same attack every round. Fighters really need something to distance themselves from all other classes that get full base attack bonuses, because everyone else already gets feats.
Fighters shouldn't be good at fighting, they should be the best.
I'd kind of like to see it more like the way ranger favored enemies work...so that at 20th level...the one he took 1st is at +4, next one taken is +3, third is +2, 4th is +1..reflecting that the weapons he used from the beginning he's better with...but that he gets bonuses with multiple types...because otherwise...he's never gonna want that cool mace you put in...because mace isn't the type he put his bonus in..but if it's his 2nd or 3rd choice...he might...
Agreed, a late level fighter should certainly have have that battle honored favorite weapon that hes known for, but he should still be the very death with anything made to hurt a living creature. Paladins, rangers and Barbarians all get there own shticks, fighters need this breadth of specialization because all they have aside from this is feats, and EVERYONE gets feats.
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I like what Paizo has done here concerning weapons and armor. I think it is good enough to give the fighter their due in combat, but not so overreaching that it unbalances the game. If you gave them +x to all weapons & Armor I think that is a bit much. This way yes your fighter could be the king of all Axe wielders or he could be balanced in several categories. Will he be as good as Bob the axe king with axes? No but isn't that what choices are about. Regardless he will be great with whatever he wants to hit you with at 16th-20th level be it Axe, sword, Chair, or the poor cohort. I like what Paizo is doing, but please do not go overboard on the power level of things.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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two things I notice,
Maybe in addition to the plusses, at every 5 levels the fighter should be able to improve a signature weapon. I'm thinking increase the crit range or the multiplier.
Using this, you could pour it all into a rapier and it would look like this:
5th level: Increase threat range to 15-20
10th level: Increase the multplier to X3
15th level: Increase threat range to 12-20
20th level: Increase damamge to X4
A Scythe would be
5th level: Increase threat range to 19-20
10th level Increase threat range to 18-20
15th level Increase threat range 17-20
20th level increase multiplier to X5
Ok, needs work, but I like the idea of being able to make Elak rock with his rapier, and yet make Conan still be good with everything.
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I like them how they are. As for one weapon ponies, well.. once you take weapon focus and weapon specialization in 3/3.5.. doesn't that kinda commit you to a given weapon anyway? :P
As for the conan argument, yeah, he does use anything at hand. He's also a barbarian who in the end fights like a barbarian not a fighter when all else falses.. and it usually did.
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Fighters should be good at fighting with anything? They *are*. That's why they have a full fighter attack bonus. That's why they have tons and tons of feats to spend...
Let's see, 12th level Fighter. Minimum 20-24 strength.
Attack:
+12 BAB
+6 Strength
+3 Greatsword
+2 W. Focus & Gr. W. Focus
+3 Weapon Training
= +26/+21/+16 attacks
-6 Power Attack
= +20/+15/+10 (reasonable, but...)Damage:
2d6
+9 (Strength and a half)
+3 Magic
+3 Weapon Training
+4 Greater W. Spec
+12 Power Attack
= Average of 38 points per hit, not counting Flaming, or Criticals, or any boosting spells or songs. I know epic level paladins that would love to dish out nearly that much damage per hit.
38 damage at 12th level doesn't seem unreasonable to me. I've seen lower level Rogues deliver more than that a round when they have a solid flank set-up.
Your argument about fighters already being the best because they have high BAB and multiple bonus feats has two flaws. First of all, all martial classes outside the monk have the best BAB. High BAB puts them on par with the others. Second, feats offer fighters new options. in that way, a fighter is a very flexible class. However, there is nothing about the 3.5 fighter that gets progressively more powerful. Once he reaches the end of one feat tree, he has to start from scratch with another one. Rogues become progressively more powerful when they accumulate more sneak attack dice. Barbarians get more powerful rage. Rangers get better at fighting their favoured enemies. Paladins get more powerful mounts. Fighters only get more powerful through magic items and increases to their strength, something the other martial classes can do as well.
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38 damage at 12th level doesn't seem unreasonable to me. I've seen lower level Rogues deliver more than that a round when they have a solid flank set-up.Your argument about fighters already being the best because they have high BAB and multiple bonus feats has two flaws. First of all, all martial classes outside the monk have the best BAB. High BAB puts them on par with the others. Second, feats offer fighters new options. in that way, a fighter is a very flexible class. However, there is nothing about the 3.5 fighter that gets progressively more powerful. Once he reaches the end of one feat tree, he has to start from scratch with another one. Rogues become progressively more powerful when they accumulate more sneak attack dice. Barbarians get more powerful rage. Rangers get better at fighting their favoured enemies. Paladins get more powerful mounts. Fighters only get more powerful through magic items and increases to their strength, something the other martial classes can do as well.
Except that now fighter DO become progressively more powerful. +1 to hit and Damage and +1 ac/-1check penalty every few levels is a nice bonus. It certainly will help to offset Power Attack if you wanted to go that route and the Armor increase is really cool. The combat feats also seem to be more powerful to me which will definately help to power the fighter. Power attack on round one, hit or miss you can Cleave on round 2 to hit 2 adjacent foes without having to drop one first, rinse and repeat, and that is just a small example. Also a bunch of feats no longer are part of a chain, like improved sunder so no 'crappy qualifier feat' to get the good stuff.
If they ramp up the power level too much they will become overpowered and I think Paizo hit this one on the head.Now the wizard may be another story, but I will go to that thread when I see exactly how that works....
Director of Games
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Hey there all,
Just a couple of quick comments.
There are some problems with the weapons groups. I plan to fix some of these and some of the suggestions posted here seem like a good start.
I also like the progressive increase (like ranger favored enemy). I might very well change it to this system.
However, I am also considering removing the groups all together and just making this a flat bonus to weapon attacks and damage. It is easier, but has a bit less flavor to me.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
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However, I am also considering removing the groups all together and just making this a flat bonus to weapon attacks and damage. It is easier, but has a bit less flavor to me.
I think that adding flavor is preferable so long as it ties into or boosts a specific "feel" in the game and doesn't greatly increase complexity or book-keeping. Certain amounts of complexity and book-keeping are just part of the game, but if you can get a lot of extra flavor for just a small bump in either then I say go with flavor.
Edit: meant to say I also like having this work similar to a Ranger's favored enemy. You also get to piggy-back on an existing (and familiar) mechanic, which is a Good Thing.
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Hey there all,
Just a couple of quick comments.
There are some problems with the weapons groups. I plan to fix some of these and some of the suggestions posted here seem like a good start.
I also like the progressive increase (like ranger favored enemy). I might very well change it to this system.
However, I am also considering removing the groups all together and just making this a flat bonus to weapon attacks and damage. It is easier, but has a bit less flavor to me.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
I like flavor. I don't want a fighter be just as good with a Ransuer as he is with a hand axe even though he never saw a ransuer before finding that magic one in the hoard. It doesn't seem right to me.
I love the weapons group idea so IMO stick with that and tweak it to accomodate a bit more coverage, like the progressive increase the ranger sees with favored enemy.Thanks for listening JB.
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I like the flavor of having it sort of like a rangers favorite enemy. This is the type of weapon I am most proficient in and therefore I have a higher chance of hitting and of doing more damage with this particular group of weapons not to mention if I choose to specialize further I can pick out a specific weapon (battle axe) that I do better then any other axe weapon with the bonus feats I get.
However, I am also considering removing the groups all together and just making this a flat bonus to weapon attacks and damage. It is easier, but has a bit less flavor to me.
I don't really see this as less flavor, just a different type of flavor.
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I also like the progressive increase (like ranger favored enemy). I might very well change it to this system.However, I am also considering removing the groups all together and just making this a flat bonus to weapon attacks and damage. It is easier, but has a bit less flavor to me.
I much prefer the notion of using the progressive system over the flat bonus. Right now, the choice of different weapon groups is the only class feature that would distinguish two fighters from each other (although they could differ in choices outside of class, such as feats).
I'm mostly fine with the weapons groups described in the playtest document, although I would ditch the spears group and split the contents between the polearms and axes groups. I'd probably also split crossbows out into a separate group from the other bows.
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I dont think a flat bonus is a good idea IMHO, why should every fighter be just as good with every weapon?
perhaps looking at how specialist wizards are handled may make for a more interesting progression for fighters?
fighters can choose to be generalist or specialists within a particular group of weapons.
benefits throughout the fighters progression are then tied to that weapon group while general fighters get different benefits like the non-specialist wizard gets the universal abilities. these benefits would not be tied to flat bonuses but would include tricks and powers, not unlike the book of nine swords.
You would also provide fighters with the ability to select new weapon groups as they advance in level similar to how a ranger selects new favored enemies. this would be a flat bonus to attack and damage that sets the fighter above other martial classes.
thoughts?
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Quijenoth, I generally agree with your weapon groups, but here are a few changes that I think should be considered.
Jason, I really like weapon groups, I’m one of those people who really likes the flavor of the old single choice Weapon Proficiencies from 2nd edition. I do not want to see bonuses just become general for everything. That just seems to ruin the flavor of the game for me. People make choices when they train in weapons. If I spend my time learning how to swing a table leg like a club that does not mean that I will suddenly know how to thrust with a spear. Please keep the weapon groups, and keep weapon focus and specialization as single weapon only feats.
If people want to be good at lots of different weapons they have the option of doing that, but we shouldn’t make it difficult to represent the character who spends their entire life trying to master a single weapon by arbitrarily saying that someone else is just as good ad him when they just pick his weapon up randomly after they spent their time using something completely different. This is not coming from specific books or movies, although plent of them support this, but just from the way life works.
Anyway, I said above that I would sugest some changes to the Weapon Groups. Here they are.
WEAPON GROUP (AXES AND PICKS)
You understand how to use axes, picks and axelike weapons.
Benefit: You make attack rolls with the following weapons normally: handaxe, battleaxe, greataxe, dwarven waraxe (two-handed use only), light pick, and heavy pick, sickle, ogre hook.
WEAPON GROUP (BASIC WEAPONS)
You understand how to use a few basic weapons.
Benefit: You make attack rolls with the following weapons normally: war-club, dart dagger, quarterstaff, spiked gauntlet. slingshot.
WEAPON GROUP (BOWS)
You understand how to use bows.
Benefit: You make attack rolls with the following weapons normally: shortbow, longbow, composite shortbow, and composite longbow.
WEAPON GROUP (CROSSBOWS)
You understand how to use crossbows and thrown weapons.
Benefit: You make attack rolls with the following weapons normally, heavy crossbow, light crossbow, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, and
WEAPON GROUP (EXOTIC DOUBLE WEAPONS)
You understand how to use the exotic double weapons associated with the weapon groups that you have mastered.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When you take this feat, you gain proficiency in the exotic double weapons associated with the weapon groups that you already know how to use.
Some exotic double weapons require you to be proficient with two weapon groups to gain proficiency in their use from this feat.
- Axes & Picks: Orc double axe, dwarven urgrosh (must also have Weapon Group [Polearms and Spears]), gnome hooked hammer (must also have Weapon Group [Maces and Hammers]).
- Heavy Blades: two-bladed sword.
- Maces and Hammers: gnome hooked hammer (must also have Weapon Group [Axes and Picks]).
- Polearms and Spears: Dwarven urgrosh (must also have Weapon Group [axes and picks]).
WEAPON GROUP (EXOTIC WEAPONS)
You understand how to use the exotic weapons associated with the weapon groups that you have mastered.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When you take this feat, you gain proficiency in the exotic weapons associated with the weapon groups that you already know how to use. Whenever you take a Weapon Group proficiency feat, you also gain proficiency in the exotic weapons (but not the exotic double weap-ons) associated with that group.
- Axes: Dwarven waraxe (one-handed use).
- Crossbows and Thrown: Bolas, chakram, hand crossbow.
- Flails and chains: scourge, spiked chain, whip.
- Heavy Blades: Bastard sword (one-handed use).
WEAPON GROUP (FLAILS AND CHAINS)
You understand how to use flails and chain weapons.
Benefit: You make attack rolls with the following weapons normally: light flail and heavy flail.
WEAPON GROUP (HEAVY BLADES)
You understand how to use large bladed weapons.
Benefit: You make attack rolls with the following weapons normally: longsword, greatsword, falchion, scimitar, and bastard sword (two-handed use)
WEAPON GROUP (LIGHT BLADES)
You understand how to use light bladed weapons.
Benefit: You make attack rolls with the following weapons normally: Dogslicer, Kukri, punching dagger, rapier, and short sword, Klar, War razor, Starknife.
WEAPON GROUP (MACES AND HAMMERS)
You understand how to use maces and clubs.
Benefit: You make attack rolls with the following weapons normally: light mace, heavy mace, greatclub, sap, light hammer, warhammer, and maul, Earth Breaker.
WEAPON GROUP (MONK WEAPONS)
You understand how to use weapons normally favored by monks.
Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike.
Benefit: You make attack rolls with the following weapons normally: kama, nunchaku, sai, shuriken, and siangham.
WEAPON GROUP (POLEARMS AND SPEARS)
You understand how to use polearms.
Benefit: You make attack rolls with the following weapons normally: glaive, guisarme, halberd, and ranseur, javelin, lance, longspear, shortspear, trident, and war-scythe.
Like I said, picking a type of weapon is an important part of the flavor of a character. Please don’t remove or water this down. I want to be able to make my Inigo Montoya with his rapier, or Little John with his quarterstaff, or Lancelot with his longsword and lance or any other combination of a character who is just plain better then anyone else with their chosen weapon simply because they put the time and effort into training with it while everyone else was out chasing people of the opposite gender or whatever else they chose to fill their daily life with.
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Ahh, I really like the idea of having specialist groups for Fighters similar to the idea of the schools for the Wizard. That way those who want specific bonuses for their favorite weapons can get them while those who want to be 'universalistic' don't get left out either.
Set them up using the Weapon Groups as a basis, with the fighter choosing at first level which 'school' he wants to follow and then adding on little flavorful abilities from there.
Good call.
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Any in favor of just adding a retraining option?
I like the retraining rules in general. I don't think they should be available for free, except as given in a particular class description (such as the Sorcerer swapping spells); I allow my players to spend any leftover action points to "retrain" when they level, following the PHB II rules.
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I was think/talking as putting in as part of the class ability. Fighters switch somewhat regularly and it would be nice to not punish them for it. Wizard can change their entire spell selection everyday so I see no problem in allowing fighters to change the group that weapon/armor training applies to.
Yeah, but wizards are still selecting their spell selection from a fixed pool. That pool expands as they gain levels and acquire new spells, but unless they are relentless in their collection of spells, they don't have access to every spell out there.
Weapon groups are pretty much the same...you start off with a narrow selection and as you get higher level (if you choose), you have more choices to choose from. None of the groups are a single weapon, so you even at low levels, you have some flexibility in your options of what weapons to use.
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Hey there all,
Just a couple of quick comments.
There are some problems with the weapons groups. I plan to fix some of these and some of the suggestions posted here seem like a good start.
I also like the progressive increase (like ranger favored enemy). I might very well change it to this system.
However, I am also considering removing the groups all together and just making this a flat bonus to weapon attacks and damage. It is easier, but has a bit less flavor to me.
Thoughts?
First, thank you for asking. Yeah, I known that's the point of these boards, but still I want to voice my appreciation.
On to the topic... I really like the ranger-esque method, myself. I like flavor, it's not needlessly complex, and it's consistent with another, existing rule.
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I don't think the weapon groups idea is a bad one. Maybe a few tweeks will get them to work and feel correct. The problem that I see and everyone on this board has pointed out is that it locks in the choice and you are stuck with that one group. I don't think a retrain is an effective fix since you are already able to do so according to the PHB2. I think a better fix would be to use the Ranger Favored Enemy System with one exception. You get a number of +1 increases that you assign to a weapon group. You can assign all of them to one weapon group or just assign them to 4 groups. Just a thought.
However, I am also considering removing the groups all together and just making this a flat bonus to weapon attacks and damage. It is easier, but has a bit less flavor to me.
IMO the fighter is simple enough already, this is not a large increment of complexity, and the fighter NEEDS more flavor.
And I think the bonus should go to a group of weapons.
There are some problems with the weapons groups. I plan to fix some of these and some of the suggestions posted here seem like a good start.
The weapon groups in the SRD (Weapon Group Feats) would work better, IMO. Actually, I like the Weapon Group Feats in general instead of Simple, Martial, and Exotic.
I also like the progressive increase (like ranger favored enemy). I might very well change it to this system.
A progressive increase might be a good idea, but using the 3.5 ranger as the basis instead of the 3.0 ranger would make more sense (gain +1/+1 in a new weapon group and add +1/+1 to a weapon group of choice that the fighter has selected for weapon training, including the one just gained). This allows for a greater choice in progression.
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Contributor
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I'm not a big fan of weapon training, because IMO it further breaks the most broken aspect of 3E, which is the genreal scaling of the math.
Fighters at high level are already so much better on their attacks than non-warrior classes, that it is impossible to put a balanced AC in an encounter. In order to present even a moderate challenge to the fighter, it must be an impossible hit for the non-warrior. To be within reach for the bard and rogue, the fighter can only miss on a 1, which means he can safely power-attack his brains out. Now one more ever-scaling bonus is being tacked on top to push this problem through the roof.
I'm all for giving interesting features to the fighter, but really, how interesting are more plusses to hit and damage? And if you apply them accross the board it's even less interesting to me, whereas if they are applyied to specific weapons or groups, well we already have weapon focus/specialization. Why make them redundant?
I'm looking at my post and it's coming across as antagonistic to me, which I don't intend. There's lots of good stuff I want to talk about too. This just isn't it!
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I also like the progressive increase (like ranger favored enemy). I might very well change it to this system.However, I am also considering removing the groups all together and just making this a flat bonus to weapon attacks and damage. It is easier, but has a bit less flavor to me.
Thoughts?
Assuming this mechanism stays in, I also prefer the Ranger style system.
Removing the weapon groups just makes it an extra BAB boost with a damage bonus.