Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Posting without being inflammatory is against my nature, so bear with me as I try to eek this out.
I have been asking for 4e since before 4e was announced. The 4e that's being released is not my ideal 4e, but I also am not interested in continuing with 3.5. Now, I find myself with an abundance of riches - two great games worthy of succeeding 3.5. The decision as to which game is the right game for me is one that I cannot make yet, and may never make - I am not limited to playing only one rpg.
Which brings us to us, the Paizo community. The way I see it, we've got two choices:
1. We can shame. We can continue tearing down 4e, continue heaping scorn on its faults, and attempt to force people to convert to the Pathfinder RPG. And, we can suffer continual attacks by people saying the Pathfinder RPG will not succeed, that 4e is the better game and rightful successor to D&D, and that eventually, inevitably, Paizo will switch to 4e. We can define ourselves forever in our opposition to WotC.
2. We can shine. There are two heirs to the D&D throne, two high quality games that will appeal to different audiences and different play styles. These two games can co-exist together just as D&D and WoD co-exist together. This is the home of Pathfinder RPG, and make no mistake, in its home it is the king of the castle, it is where our loyalty lies and it is the game we want to play. But, it is a new game, and we are its ambassadors, and if it is to succeed, it will be because there is an audience for it and they want to play it, not because we heap sufficient scorn on 4e to make someone convert. The virtues of Pathfinder, not the faults of 4e, are the best tools for bringing people into our community. Particularly those like myself, who see a lot to like in both games.
Paizo has made its decision; WotC has made its decision. It's time for everyone here to make their decision - can you support the game you love without tearing down someone else's? This is an important decision, because whether we like it or not, attacks are going to come to us. People are going to post here, on ENWorld, on WotC, in every forum on the internet attacking Pathfinder, attacking Paizo, and attacking the community that supports them. We can respond in kind, or we can do what's best for Pathfinder. We can refute the lies, share our experiences, and refrain from making this into a Pathfinder v. 4e debate.
We all know what blind fanaticism for 4e looks like; let's not give Pathfinder fans the same bad name.
Let's decide to shine.
Let's decide to shine.
Damn straight!
Despite how vocal a critic I am of 4E and WotC, let me be the first from the pro-PRPG crowd to extend a hand of friendship and to say that there is plenty to like about 4E. And there is certainly nothing wrong with converting over Pathfinder to 4E or buying both books and running a homebrew which is a mesh of the two.
Bravo, well said!
We can shine.
Right on!
I have no intention of continuing with 3.5/Pathfinder, but I wish a hearty BEST OF LUCK to Paizo and all of you who have decided to stick with them.
Keep rolling those 20s!
So long Paizo, you'll be sorely missed. :(
Let's decide to shine.Damn straight!
Alleluiah Brother!
Shining with all my might!
-Amber S.
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Amen to that.
My choice will be Paizo's choice. I mean to honor that. These are two versions of the game we love, and they are by no means mutually exclusive.
They each have something to offer, each with its own appeal and advantages to a subset of our particular niche fandom. I think many of us, in time, will be happy to play both.
This will not be for everyone, but I think even 4th edition proponents will be content to say that choice is a good thing, and the 3.x edition supporters can admit that a new iteration of the game to introduce new blood into our hobby is what will sustain it for a long time to come.
There is no need for more senseless arguing. Just play!
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Thanks for this post. I _really_ appreciate the sentiment.
Contrary to a few of the threads I've seen today, this is not a decision we entered to spite Wizards of the Coast.
This is not a contest between one game or the other.
We're putting out an updated version of a game we love, that allows us to tell certain kinds of stories and that appeals to us on a number of different levels.
4e likewise allows a lot of interesting options for storytelling, and appeals to a lot of gamers.
The two approaches are not mutually exclusive.
It's not a contest between the two games, and it's definitely not a contest between the _fans_ of the two games.
I for one am looking forward to seeing the final version of 4e. I am likewise looking forward to playing it, just as I look forward to playing Call of Cthulhu, the Warhammer 40K RPG, or Space 1889.
It's a big world. There's plenty of room to satisfy a wide variety of gaming tastes.
And there's no reason to get in fights about it, either.
--Erik
Amen Brother! Amen!
Hear, hear!
Sebastian, that was amazingly eloquent, and very, very true.
Sebastian,
Evil bastards are not supposed to cry. Why did you make me cry, you bastard (this is with all the love for fellow evil one).
Well put. I am for option 2. I now have two choices and I am happy. I was planning to tinker with 3.5 if 4e didn't work for me. Now I have an abundance of riches.
In Service,
Bryan Blumklotz
AKA Saracenus
Wow, I just came back to the 4e forums to say goodbye (not that I post much here, preferring to lurk and avoid the fights). This is as good a thread as any to do that.
Sebastian, that was my favorite post of any you've ever written. Spot on. While I'm ecstatic Paizo went the direction I had hoped they would, I will not use this to bait anyone sticking w/ 4th edition. I wish that crowd all the best, and hope they don't leave this community based on that decision.
See you all (or most of you) in some of the other forums here...
Nicely put Sebastian. *applause, cookies, beer*
This is a beautiful thread. Nice work Sebastian.
As infrequently as I agree with Sebastion's tone (not necessarily the letter of his posts, merely his delivery), this simply needed to be said, and it was said beautifully.
Can we all rise beyond the name calling and let the 4E fans be excited about their new edition, while we revel in this chance to continue with 3.X? We damn well better be able to!
Let's allow everyone to be happy about their own particular decisions and post accordingly without harping on anyone else's choices!
Whether you're 3.X or 4.0 fans, I think we can all rally to support the best publisher in the RPG business!
Cheers,
Colin
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We can shine.Right on!
I have no intention of continuing with 3.5/Pathfinder, but I wish a hearty BEST OF LUCK to Paizo and all of you who have decided to stick with them.
Keep rolling those 20s!
So long Paizo, you'll be sorely missed. :(
Tom, I imagine that at some point (probably sooner than later), folks will be doing conversions of the Pathfinder adventures to 4e; and given the talent of some of the people around here, I imagine they’ll be good conversions. I hope that you might still be able to make use of some of Paizo’s products in your 4e gaming – so don’t miss them just yet!
Nicely put, Seb. It certainly reflects my own thinking.
I put in another thread essentially that I am optimistc that both systems can work to improve the RPG industry, not necessarily by pure competition but by providing parallel ground to improve this game.
Maybe it will work; maybe it won't - but I do agree we need to help make it friendly to all.
Thanks for not making me think that was too crazy a thought. ;-)
Just one more post in support. Well said, Sebastian!
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::Joins in the excellent opinion written by Sebastian::
BTW: As of 9:55 Central time, enworld has not posted a news article on this development. When the "stay tuned" screen was first put they briefly had a blurb about it. Anyone know anything?
I haven't stopped smiling since I read the news, and I've been filling out nonresident tax returns for 3 hours!
Thank you Paizo!
Yes, absolutely... yes!
There are two heirs to the D&D throne, two high quality games that will appeal to different audiences and different play styles.I have to VERY STRONGLY disagree with ONE word here (and only ONE word in the entire post): TWO.
THere are at LEAST four heirs to the D&D throne:
D&D 4E
Pathfinder
HackMaster
Castles & Crusades.You could even add Labrynth (sp?) Lord and OSRIC to this list.
Otherwise you're spot on.
Yes! And World of Warcr
Great post Sebastian and I am more than excited by the new pathfinder RPG.. I guess I will be stuck with the OGL games after all (True 20,
Mutants and Masterminds, Conan and now Pathfinder)... :-)
And it occur to me that if Green Ronin or Mongoose publishing can survive with only a fraction of the OGL RPG market, Paizo can do the same with the same (or more) success...
I only wish that the clashs of idea that will follow (because Paizo need our feedback to make this game the best ever... so a new and similar debate will begin) won't go back to the 'conservative' 3.5 VS the "cool" 4E debate... I guess that if Paizo is able to add a lot of optional rules but keep the core rules and make it possible to play almost as the core 3.5E... everyone will be happy!
This I can agree... WE CAN ALL SHINE!!!
Heck, we're all gamers and in that ending sense, we could all use each other for ideas.
Granted, as far as my professional concerns are in the industry, I strive to make system/edition universal products more than the system compat/ready to fully roll anyways, so a great deal of the work that I do is compatible with many products and editions... including the various D&Ds and AD&Ds... 4th edition included.
I am going to say this one thing about 4e in the positive... after its announcement I went through a state.. as sad as this is... almost comparable to the psychological aspects of learning that you are about to die... the denial, anger, and so forth... I'm gearing towards the acceptance, and seeing how I am both going to live (as far as I know) as well as D&D and role playing in some form or another, I've reached a further sense... enlightenment and excitement... and nostaglia.
For years I was too caught up in the game designer mode, kicking out and getting rid of any book that wasn't in the core 3.5 standard... working to create what wasn't already offered, ignoring the rest.
After the initial panic of the announcement, I realized that we would have to step up even more with the system generic offerings so my first attempt was to restore my past ownings of GURPS to a small degree, so I started buying into old GURPS books... then, I've started buying into older D&D systems... basically replacing my books of old and then some.
I've been utterly delighted to pour through those long lost and sadly once traded off pages....
I've never been so excited about gaming again in the last two years... and my excitement is stemming from a motely collection of 3rd edition and 3.5 edition books, plus a handful of 2nd edition and 1st edition books that I recently got in.
So in all, in an non-publishing career sense, 4th edition has made me very excited about gaming AS A GAMER again, but ironically in a sense that is geared towards the current available edition as well as older editions.
Well said my man!
I'm absolutely ecstatic that we finally know what's going to happen, and can kick some of the angst to the curb.
Now I just need to find time to work more on converting Rise of the Runelords :)
Nicely put Sebastian. *applause, cookies, beer*
Ouch... I don't know why but cookies and beer give me a stomach ache if mixed together... actually beer and anything else sweet... but then my body has a bit of a problem regulating triglycerides I may have to give up my favorite drink soon.
Sebastian: very well said! Let´s all bury the hatchet right now.
Erik, Lisa and the whole paizo staff: Thanks for a cool birthday present (18th march) ;-)
It feels good to have the opportunity to be part of something new.
Stefan
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Posting without being inflammatory is against my nature, so bear with me as I try to eek this out.
I have been asking for 4e since before 4e was announced. The 4e that's being released is not my ideal 4e, but I also am not interested in continuing with 3.5. Now, I find myself with an abundance of riches - two great games worthy of succeeding 3.5. The decision as to which game is the right game for me is one that I cannot make yet, and may never make - I am not limited to playing only one rpg.
Which brings us to us, the Paizo community. The way I see it, we've got two choices:
1. We can shame.
2. We can shine.
Damned. Good. Post.
Agreed, Sebastian, let us shine.
Couldn't have said it better myself! ;-)
Well done!
Excellent post Sebastian, and something I have felt during this whole descision process. We need to define ourselves by what we have in common, not what separates us. Now that Paizo has made its descsion this should be a time for healing. Like you said, there will be angry posts still, but I think we can rise above all the flaming and baiting and get to more constructive discussions about what we all love: Tabletop pen and paper RPGs, no matter what the flavor.
I'm already itching to try this Pathfinder game. I've 'beta'd' games before. But this is the first time I've gotten ahold of 'alpha' rules.
And I just ordered all kinds of maps and tokens from the Paizo sale. Now I know what I'll be doing with those. ; )
Tom, I imagine that at some point (probably sooner than later), folks will be doing conversions of the Pathfinder adventures to 4e; and given the talent of some of the people around here, I imagine they’ll be good conversions. I hope that you might still be able to make use of some of Paizo’s products in your 4e gaming – so don’t miss them just yet!
That is indeed my hope as well. The quality of Paizo's products is undeniable. I'll keep a toe in the pool just in case. Thanks!
Sebastian,
You might be our D&D Messiah, preaching a message of love and acceptance. The prophecies did say that our figurehead would be a "Conanesque Ball Buster" who would "Razz the Eff out of bunches of Grogs," so it could be you.
Thank you for saying what you said Sea Bass. Thank you for showing the community that other gamers are all we've got. D&D is supposed to be about friends getting together, not enemies angrily shoving their metaphorical fists into metaphorical...places.
All Hail Sebastian, All Hail The D&D Messiah!
Behold a pale horse and PAIZO followed with him.